BRAVO DANISH KANERIA

BRAVO DANISH KANERIA

BRAVO DANISH KANERIA

What Shahid Afridi could not do, Danish Kaneria has done it.  Someone with spine needed to stand up against the stinking Butt Board, we all thought that Afridi will turn the tables and will emerge as a hero, but he bowed down under pressure and for the lust of money.  He filed a case against the PCB in the court and then made an outside the court settlement with the Butt Cronies.  Afridi disappointed millions and millions of his fans by doing that. In my eyes he lost his respect.

I expect Danish Kaneria to fight his battle in the court till the end, although there may not be as much public support as Afridi got when he filed a case against the PCB, but I expect some serious cricket lovers must support him and his cause and Kaneria must emerge as a winner with a ruling and a verdict against the Butt Regime.  Recently, the ICC has asked the cricket boards to get rid of the political influence from their boards. And, Butt being a Chamcha of Zardari tried to get some sympathies from Zardari by showing his loyalty towards him and saying “you want our President to be removed from the board who is the patron in chief?” He thought that,  Zardari, Gabbar ki terha bahoot Khuss Hoga, Sabaasi Dega….He is least bothered about that but, that idiot Zardari takes no interest in cricket, hence he should be kicked out not only from the board but, also from the country for destroying it.  He has time to play polo and attend polo tournaments in the UK and no time for his own country’s cricket team?

Danish Kaneria, you go ahead and don’t compromise on principles, be firm and get your rights and earn your respect, these vultures do not know what respect and self-esteem means they are constantly looting the country with both hands and at every single opportunity.  You go ahead we are behind you, whatever little support that you may need, we will offer you by raising our voice and I want our bloggers, Pawan, Varun, newguy and all to write on this thread and support Danish Kaneria.

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  1. #1 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 5, 2011 - 4:58 PM

    Please leave your comments on this new thread, THANK YOU.

  2. #2 by Pawan on July 5, 2011 - 5:09 PM

    Javed,

    I appreciate you taking time to write about this incident.
    I don’t know how much of this is an issue with the people of Pakistan as Kaneria is a Hindu.
    But I fully expected something coming from this blog.
    We all do support Kaneria and hope this will act as a trigger for something big.
    Which means removal of Butt.

    But honestly I doubt if this will change anything in the administration.
    With this appeal Danish has effectively retired until Butt is at the helm.
    I sometimes wonder how Butt gets his peace of mind and sleep at night with such atrocities.
    To me Butt and Zardari are dead men walking. They are dead morally.
    I wonder when people will understand that money is just a piece of paper.

  3. #3 by Pawan on July 5, 2011 - 5:22 PM

    Elsewhere..

    Dinesh Chandimal was “allowed” to complete his hundred by Angelo Mathews in 3rd ODI against England.
    Mathews faced some 20 balls for 3 runs and blocked until Chandimal, upcoming youngster scored his hundred.
    The match could have been won by SL with at least 5-6 overs to spare (something which Mahela agreed in his article at cricinfo)
    But due to this century scoring business the match was taken to the last over.
    For me this is really bad advertisement of cricket.
    I understand people have done it in the past, but this needs to be stopped somewhere.
    Why this fascination with the triple figure? Isn’t that just a number?
    I understand at times people, especially commentators use this term that so and so should score a hundred.
    But that should be read in context of a big number as a motivation rather than a perfect 100.
    What do you guys think?

    Kumar Sangakara has come out against SL board for corrupt administration.
    This is also something which should be applauded.
    SL administration has really touched bottom.

    WICB and Gayle are busy fighting while Indian third rate team is busy bashing the WI team.
    What and irony!
    Some WI ministers have come in support of Gayle.
    Doesn’t it sound similar to the sub-continent, lol

  4. #4 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 5, 2011 - 7:47 PM

    Pawan

    As far as Danish Kaneria’s stand is, we appreciate it irrespective of the fact that he is a Hindu and treated differently in Pakistan. On this blog we have always raised voice against the perpetrators and dictators and supported the just cause and those who are victims of these perpetrators. Perpetrators such as Butt and Zardari. We also applaud the speech of Kumara Sangakara, which is a bold step against a dictatorial regime of Sri Lankan cricket.

    We have never supportedShahid Afridi blindly, we supported him when he was right and criticized him when he was wrong. So, those who think that we support Afridi blindly are nuts. We do have the ability to understand the psyche of the players who are honest and those who are not and we do not hesitate in writing against them, we have done this against Malik on Pakspin. We have always been against Shoaib Malik, Kamran Akmal, Misbah and Salman Butt, in our opinion they are the worst players Pakistan has produced in this generation and, not as players only but as human beings who are there to destroy the name and reputation of the country by being dishonest, negative and who play dirty politics by creating divisions and fractions in the team. We have also criticized, cricketers of the past such as, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younus, Saleem Malik, Ijaz and Mushtaq for being corrupt and dishonest. We have praised Inzamam as a batsman but, we have criticized him for bringing Mullah culture in the team. We even criticized the legendary Imran Khan when he speaks BS.

    We also praised Tendulkar and criticized him too, so in short we have not left anyone who in our opinion has done something wrong. And, I am glad to see that our bloggers have also supported our view and joined us by raising their voice. In this case Danish Kaneria deserves justice and we hope he gets the right decision. And, I also agree with your views that, Ijaz Butt will not select him in the team as long as he is there. But, it will certainly set an impetus for others that justice cannot be denied. And, people like Ijaz Butt should not be allowed to come near cricket anymore.

  5. #5 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 5, 2011 - 7:49 PM

    As regards the triple figures, who else is more greedy than Gavaskar is? What he could not achieve, he visualizes himself as Tendulkar and wants him to achieve that and feels proud on every milestone that he achieves as if it is his own (Gavaskar’s) record.

  6. #6 by Pawan on July 5, 2011 - 8:32 PM

    Javed,

    I urge you to listen to Sangakkara’s speech at MCC on YouTube.
    He summarizes cricket and politics in SL which go hand in hand.
    It’s a very studied speech.
    The speech is not just about corruption in SL board, but a whole lot more.

  7. #7 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 6, 2011 - 12:49 AM

    Pawan

    I already did and applaud his brave efforts. Like Dravid, Sangakara is also one of my favourite players, both are good ambassadors for cricket and their countries.

  8. #8 by Bichoo on July 6, 2011 - 1:43 AM

    Hi Javed Khan and everyone else,

    As you know I took a break after WC, because it was a high point and I needed some time away from cricket. In fact, I am not very much back, but Javed Khan has called out to me a couple of times in recent threads which I was reading, so I thought I will come back and post a few comments, that plus we now have enough body of issues to talk about. To set it straight, I did not go away because of last thread with Khansahab (who has a new name now). I was tired of blogging and took my interests to few other areas.

    First of all, I am trying this new screen name Bichoo after the new West Indian leg spinner Bishoo. He is a good find for WI.

    Second, I don’t much about this Danish Kaneria issue, and I don’t much about him as a player. The fact that he is a Hindu does not make much difference to me in terms of support, because just like an Indian Muslim is Indian to me, a Pakistani Hindu is a Pakistani to me. I believe the constitution of Pakistan treats everyone as equal, it’s not like middle eastern countries that treat others as second and third class citizens, or like the South Africans during their apartheid era treating blacks any different. Also, I think Kaneria has nothing to lose by going to court unlike Afridi who has a number of contracts pending, and ultimately he has to put food on the table for his family, in a corrupt system like Pakistan where the head of the nation is supporting Ijaz Butt what is the point in Afridi going against him. Will the people of Pakistan stand behind him, or will he be a lamb for slaughter at the hands of Butt and Zardari, I think the latter, so he took the more pragmatic route. He has a responsibility for his young children and their future, he cannot shut out his livelihood while fighting Butt with no real scope for winning.

    Third, on this Sangakkara business, I think it is all a bit of political grandstanding by Sangakkara. I can’t say truthfully that I like him very much as a person, in fact, I can’t say I trust any Sri Lankan very much. Sanga and Mahela has elitist attitude having bred on elite upbringing and English education abroad. Sangakkara tries to talk in fake American / British accent which irritates me no end. It is true that Sri Lankan system is corrupt to the core, and the administration has committed human rights violation. While they claim victory over the LTTE in the civil war, was real peace made and the problem solved? or were they simply crushed under the military boot and subjugated? No one dares to stand up now fearing cruel retaliation like executions and rape. Coming back to the point, even thought the SL government and cricket administation are corrupt, it is not like Sangakkara is a saint. Why did he chose to speak in front of a western media, in front of English crowd and Lords? are they still the lords of Sri Lanka? why is he trying to score points with them. HE should speak in front of his own people, in Sri Lanka, and I would have more respect for him.

    Lastly, Ind-WI series is not so great, but is competitive because of the weakened Indian outfit, and good to see young people getting tested. England series will be worth following.

  9. #9 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 6, 2011 - 5:18 PM

    newguy: Congratulations finally you have find a name for yourself, be it Bichoo or Saanp :D

    Among all other points that you have mentioned, the one on Dhoni’s attack on umpire Daryl Harper is missing, so please do write something about that as well.

    After reading your comment, I must confess that I have to slightly alter my views about Sangakara especially the one you pointed about him and Jayawardene trying to act like the elite class of Sri Lanka also, his speech at Lords and why not in Lanka? I have noted the fake accent and didn’t pay much attention but, after you highlighting it, it came to my mind that yes what is the need to put on an accent?

    I am a very good mimicker and I can mimic anyone in any accent, but, when I am talking to people, I just have one accent and that is not fake. I may add a few French words here and there but, that has become my natural instinct and my first nature because of living here for such a long time. Like a few words of Urdu, I also add a few Arabic words in between and that is because of living in Dubai for such a long time. This happens during the course of a discussion and not during a serious speech, which I seldom give these days.

    On that elitist comment, I’ve also seen on TV during the matches when the cameramen focus on these two players wives they are also dressed up like ultra modern and not so Sri Lankan females. So, thanks for highlighting on the facts which at times you don’t observe or even if you do, you don’t give that much attention. But, then there comes a time when it looks too much and too obvious and one asks this question, WHY? What is the need?

  10. #10 by Pawan on July 6, 2011 - 5:53 PM

    newguy/Bichoo

    Nice name that and good to have you back over here.
    You mentioned our WC win and then your dip in interest.
    It was exactly opposite for me – WC just heightened my interest.
    So much that I am even following Ind-WI series!
    To be honest the Ind-WI series looks really like a domestic
    rather than an international level series.

    Sanga is a super guy and so is Mahela.
    These two are cool customers.
    I think the reason he delivered the knock-out punch to
    the SLC board at MCC is because it is a much bigger platform.
    I wonder if anyone would have even noticed if he spoke somewhere in SL.
    Mind you, the speech was not just about what he spoke about SLC board.
    It was in general about the SL cricket – a very historic and studied perspective.
    It is the media which has lifted that board comments issue.

  11. #11 by Bichoo on July 6, 2011 - 10:08 PM

    Javed Khan,

    I am glad you liked my new name and that you see a new angle to Sangakkara personality based on my comment :) It is true that sometimes we see things in front of us but overlook for many reasons.

    About Dhoni’s comments on Darryl Harper, this guy Harper is the brother of the other Aussie Darryl Hair, correct? By brother I don’t mean real brother, but you get the drift. I am glad to see the back of both Darryl’s. He made some blunders in the first test and deserve to step down. Should Dhoni be punished for making such comments? I don’t think so. Ricky Ponting has said and done much worse, and he never got punished. Even though two wrongs do not make one right, I think Indians may be enjoying a few liberties after suffering at the hands of Australia and England setup for many years. I will give Dhoni a pass, after all he won the WC for India :)

    Pawan,

    In what ways you are calling Sangakkara super guy and cool. I am not talking about him as a cricketer, as a batsman he is one of the top guys in world cricket today, no doubt. He is also very articulate and can communicate well, his speech is a testimony for his communication skills. But … my problem is that he comes off as a guy that wants to suck up to the gora sahabs, in the sense that he wants to be seen as a “brown gora sahab” if you know what I mean. This is a tendency with many desis, and it may apply to Sri Lankans too. Some of them act very funny with goras and they behave differently with Desis. To them, approval from goras are very important. I am the type of person who behaves exactly same with goras and desis, I do not try to suck up, neither do I give in. I treat them all equal. Sangakkara comes off to me as an uncle tom sellout, to borrow a phrase used for such people. I may be wrong, but he comes off as such to me with his fake accent and English babu attitude. In other words Sangakkara to me is the Imran Khan of SL :)

  12. #12 by Bichoo on July 7, 2011 - 2:52 AM

    Javed / Pawan,

    What do you guys think about Sangakkara revealing in a chat with English TV commentary crew that a very senior Indian player which he soon after revealed as Rahul Dravid confided to him that Brian Lara is his (Dravid’s) favorite player, and not Sachin Tendulkar.

    Let’s not bother about who is actually a better player, or even we can have a conclusion to that topic. I don’t think we can, to me both Lara and Tendulkar are greats, and some of Lara’s feats to me are astounding, like his 400 not out and his 500 in first class, which Tendulkar can never match. Anyhow, point is not about either of these greats, but about Kumar Sangakkara.

    Why did he had to go into spilling beans on something Rahul Dravid confided to him? and what about Dravid himself, is it unpatriotic for Dravid to confess he likes Lara better to someone like Sangakkara who is of different nationality.

  13. #13 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 3:29 AM

    Bichoo,

    Thanks for pointing out what Dravid thinks about who is a better player between Lara and Tendulkar. We have been ranting and raving since a long while that Lara is the better of the two players, but some people tend to take offence at that comparison. Sangakkara raised very important points by saying what Dravid thought: That the greater player is a matter of opinion, and secondly, there are people within India who look at Tendulkar’s record criticially. I have always thought of Rahul Dravid as a very astute person (apart from being a genuine matchwinner) who at a point in time was easily considered a better player than Tendulkar. While Tendulkar was the iconic 15-year old talent and Dravid was dubbed as the worker of the ball, the heart of the matter ought to be that Dravid played many important matchwinning knocks, whereas Tendulkar played for himself and “look at how great a player he is”. In fact, but for the record of the past few years, I rate Dravid as a better player than Tendulkar. On the other hand Laxman is a genuine matchwinner too, superior to Tendulkar in many aspects of batsmanship.

  14. #14 by Mohammed Munir on July 7, 2011 - 6:22 AM

    Bichoo …

    Welcome back after a long break.

    I absolutely liked your above comment no. 8, and in fact I agree with your views on almost all issues you touched.

    You are right about the West Indian leggy Bishoo, whom I don’t like much but I have been saying that he a worthy find for WI, specially since they don’t have any creditable spinners in their side.

    I also agree with you on ‘Dainnee Bouwaaye’, who is not a very special player but keeps moving in-and-out of Pakistani team. I am sure there is no issue with him being a Hindu in Pakistan team, but his playing capabilities are a real reason for him not making into a permanent team member. Secondly, Danish was never considered an ODI or T20 players and he only played Tests. He played some match-winning innings but I think Kamran Akmal played a very vital role in bringing downfall of Danish. Unfortunate as it is, but we can not say with surety if it was a deliberate plan by Kamran Akmal or ‘Kamy’ was never able to read ‘Dany’.

    Still on Dany, I think Javed Khan and LS have done a special service to Pakistan cricket by at least raising awareness and supporting Danish Kaneria. Danny may neither get justice from PCB not as much support from the Pakistani fans as Shahid Afridi got, but the fact remains that at least he made a sincere effort to get himself cleared. PCB is in real mess, and the unbridled power of “iJazz Butt” is obvious by the fact that Shahid Afridi in spite of being the most loved and favorable Pakistani player and also carrying lot of fans support couldn’t do any harm to iJazz. Afridi begged President of Pakistan, Mr. Zar-Dari to intervene and save Pakistani cricket but to no avail. Similarly, earlier great players like Mohammed Yusuf and Younis Khan were humiliated and penalized by iJazz. So most probabally, seeing all this would have discouraged Afridi to persue his case against PCB and all-powerful iJazz Butt. As such, Afridi what he had to do, and he took a rather commercial decision and made his peace with iJazz Butt and PCB by sacrificing a bit of self-respect.

    And finally I too have similar thoughts about ‘Sang-ra-Kara’ (some commentator, I think Waqar calls him Sang-ra-Kara). I think Sanga is a very good player, no doubt, and a good communicator as he speaks much better English, but that definitely doesn’t make him a Mr. Nice-Guy.

  15. #15 by Bichoo on July 7, 2011 - 12:28 PM

    Sagaat,

    I do not want to open the can of worms that is who is a better player among Lara vs. Tendulkar, that was not my question.

    I am simply asking what does it reveal about the character of a person (Sangakkara) who will on public record in a third nation (not SL, not Ind, but Eng) speak out something confided to him personally by Dravid. Second, on the same note, what does it reveal about the character of Dravid who will confide with a foreign player (Sangakkara) that he likes Lara better than Tendulkar.

    Again, not a question of who is better, not a question of whether Dravid has the right to like Lara better (he has the right), but telling that to a third party like Sanga may be considered unpatriotic. Especially since Dravid is supposed to be a friend of Tendulkar and played with him for many many years and shared same dressing room, even know each others family matters. It’s like family, you don’t tell outsiders that you don’t like your brother but another person better.

    Lastly, I don’t even want to be engaged in Dravid and Laxman vs. Tendulkar, it’s a no brainer, while these two are very good players and have won matches for India, they are no where close to Tendulkar, not even worth speaking in same note. The value of Tendulkar’s batting, the joy he brings to people who have watched him bat, and conduct himself over the years, is something else. Dravid and Laxman will never come anywhere close. And, I don’t even want to start with how Dravid messed up with both Sachin and Ganguly by being the backroom boy of Greg Chappel. In fact, he even messed up with Sehwag and Zaheer, recently ZK told media that Chappel era was the worst for him, and I recall in a series after ZAK came back to India team after Dravid lost captaincy, Dravid dropped a catch off ZAK and he was fuming and cursing him, that said there were issues between players and Dravid. He never backed the players when he was captain.

  16. #16 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 1:44 PM

    Newguy,

    Dravid and Sangkkara said it the way they saw it. This way no Indian should criticize Tendulkar because he is a god in India or should say that Lara is better than Tendulkar? Players have their opinions and it doesn’t say anything negative about Dravid, but only positive in that he spoke his mind (and same goes for Sangkkara). I can say that Tendulkar is better than Laxman or Dravid to please you on the blog, but would I be speaking my mind if I said so?

    You are complaining of Dravid as captain, what about Tendulkar as captain? And, Dravid was correct to chage the thinking of the players when he was captain. Dravid has a proper scientific, modern approach on how to go about things. In a very lucky universe this has gone Tendulkar’s way– and that too with Sehwag’s support Tendulkar feels he can now play at liberty to display his showmanship rather than bat for any cause, whether to win a match….that is he now realizes that it is about him. Therefore, he has peaked, but only like Dravid, Ponting, and company peaked at their zenith.

    Likewise Dhoni is a good tactician, but as far as the number one ranking is concerned, it is rather a lack of quality teams in the world instead of India’s superiority. That too the ranking is a fluke in that neither is India too far ahead of SA nor England, in other words they don’t dominate and they have held the number one ranking only because of the way the series’ have been stacked over each other and time will tell whether they can hold it for any substantial length of time. Pakistan, West Indies, and increasingly Australia are very mediocre when it comes to test match cricket. England and SA have never been good in the subcontinent. This means that India could win or draw all the serie at home and keep the number one ranking by either winning against England or SA. Winning against England was a BIG fluke, one match was saved by one wicket or the weather, and that turned the series I remember. Whereas traditionally India could never win against Pakistan inside India, that is not the case now because of a much weaker Pakistan team. So, in essence, because of their batting and pitches, no team can beat them at home and that is why they carry their number one ranking, with a fluke here or there in England or SA…but apart from that they don’t have the bowling to dominate world cricket. I guess the long and the short of it is that Dravid’s thinking was probably correct but it has turned out quite lucky for Dhoni the way things have unfolded. That shouldn’t take anything away from Dravid.

  17. #17 by Bichoo on July 7, 2011 - 2:17 PM

    Sagaat, You are Umar Admani, aren’t you? I didn’t get it in the beginning, but now I do :)

    For the sake of brevity, let me keep this real simple.

    Sachin is India, and India is Sachin. He is not god, but he is one and the same as Indian cricket.

    Some other author wrote this before, but it reflects what Sachin really means to every Indian and Indian supporter. Modern India grew up with Sachin, among many troubles and joys, Sachin is one constant in peoples lives. In short, he is everyones son and brother, he is the boy who fulfilled every ambition everyone had about him.

    It’s not about records, some people think it’s that, but it’s not, to understand the unadultered love for Sachin you really have to understand this special bonding.

    Anil Kumble won more matches for India than any other Indian. But ask any Indian if they had to chose between Kumble and Sachin, who would they chose? Answer is obvious. It defies rationale, but that is the connection Indians have for Tendulkar. It goes beyond his runs and matches he won or lost. Every time he steps on the field for India is a special moment, especially since everyone knows there isn’t much time left.

    If you recall, every single member of WC winning team said they are doing it for Sachin, just like the masses they have the special connection. In fact, Sachin did not win the WC for India, you can say Dhoni did, or Yuvraj did, but who was taken on the shoulders around the ground. Every young batsman who bats with Sachin on his debut test says it was special and that his presense helped them. It helped Sehwag on his debut test, it helped Raina on his debut, even Youvraj credited Sachin when he played a winning knock against England along with Sachin.

    If Sachin was batting with Virat Kohli in this present series, Kohli would haev found inspiration to succeed.

    I don’t expect you to understand this, because it is a special connection Indians have evolved around Sachin over the years.

  18. #18 by Pawan on July 7, 2011 - 4:18 PM

    LOL @ Sagaat/Omar

    I don’t care what YOU think about Sachin.

    To me and to billion other people (not just Indians) Sachin is the best cricketer the world has ever produced, let alone India. Dravid toh uskey charno ki dhool bhi nahi hai.
    The only debate that can stand valid is Sachin vs. Don.

  19. #19 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 7, 2011 - 5:08 PM

    Good to see that you all came to respond on the blog except for Varun and khansahab.

    Shahid Afridi has won most matches for Pakistan but, is he a better batsman than Javed Miandad, Inzamam or even Mohammad Yousuf? No he is NOT. He is more versatile player than any other player Pakistan has ever produced, not even Imran Khan, Wasim Akram or Abdul Razzaq can be compared to him. And, this is not just a matter of opinion but, based on facts and figures. The only difference that the other 3 or 4 players you guys are talking about are specialist batsmen and none of them are all-rounders. Each one is a gem in its own way. The debate can continue it is meaningless but, personal choices will remain.

  20. #20 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 5:08 PM

    Newguy and Pawan,

    I appreciate both of your bold statements, but you also have to recognize that at the end of the day for the rest of the world he is just a cricketer and a batsman, and as such is open to comparison with other batsmen of his era. I personally think that Sachin lacks in lots of quality test match innings for him to qualify for a comparison with the Don, and should be judged along with the best batsmen of his era only. I don’t know the connection that you made between Indians and Sachin, but I am afraid that connection doesn’t make it true that Sachin is a better player than Dravid. Only hard numbers and solid knocks will tell. Besides, I believe it is one day cricket which captured the fans imagination in the sub-continent during the 90s and 2000s, and the infatuation with Sachin has to do with a number of one day knocks that he played for India (the best being the ones with the most chances ;)). For a proper cricket fan, one day cricket is peripheral to test cricket, and at the end of the career it is test statistics and innings that are usually compared. Neither does Sachin have a 300 or a 400 despite such longevity, none of his test knocks appear int he top 100 of all time (In comparison three of Lara’s appear in the top 15). On the other hand Sachin’s average is not amongst the top 10 highest teast averages of all time. This is despite this player being accused of playing selfishly and for himself time and again: Clearly, this player has nothing remarkable about him apart from his longevity. But longevity pales in comparison to solid knocks, averages, and I should dare say, a much better strike-rate. These are all things which have an intrinsic value insofar as the outcome of a particular match is concerned; longevity has no bearing on the outcome of individual matches and seems like the most redundant of variables to consider when considering the worth of a player. As is the notion of a 400 being counted as 1 hundred: 4 100s are 4 100s and should be credited as such. Anyway, longevity is good only insofar as to say that the player had a sufficient sample of innings to justify his average (as not being a fluke) rather than for longevity to itelf take precedence over average.

  21. #21 by Pawan on July 7, 2011 - 5:15 PM

    Bichoo

    I had similar kind of thoughts about Kumar S. But since he delivered the speech at MCC and exposed corruption at SLC, he has earned my respect.
    I don’t think he is a gora-sucker. And I also don’t like people who lick goras.
    To me what I didn’t like in Sanga was his childish attitude.
    The example you gave is just what I am talking about.
    He had no business exposing what Dravid thinks.
    That is so childish and unnecessary.
    But I like that he has come out in open and exposed SL board, just exactly what Afridi should have done.
    Being a Pathan I didn’t expect Afridi to chicken out like he did.

    About that statement by Dravid about Lara/Tendulkar,
    I think it is Dravid’s own choice.
    But I would rather think that at times conversations can be taken out of context.
    We don’t know what exactly transpired between Dravid and Sanga.
    So we really cannot comment as such.
    Now had Dravid come out and said that to the world, it would have been a different situation altogether.

  22. #22 by Bichoo on July 7, 2011 - 5:16 PM

    Sagaat / Omer,

    There is no way I am going to get dragged into a debate with you on Sachin vs. the rest, we settled it long time back. Sachin is the most complete batsman of his time, this is acknowledged by most authorities. Not everyone will agree, this is fine. Let’s move on. But, LOL @ bringing Dravid to compare with Sachin, I have exact same sentiment as Pawan. Let’s not even waste time with it.

  23. #23 by Bichoo on July 7, 2011 - 5:19 PM

    Pawan,

    I think Sanga has a bit of politician in him, he is also a Lawyer by profession, hence not everything he says is coming from heart, it could be calculated. A lawyer seldom speaks anything without tilting the various sides of it. He has said what he had to say, but using Dravid’s name.

  24. #24 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 5:37 PM

    Bichoo,

    It seems to me that you are paying too much attention to the previous three years and not the five years prior to that. If you look at the average of Dravid and the fact that from our perspective, when we had our pace attack, we feared him most to bowl against in the Indian team then it may become apparent why Pakistanis generally respect Dravid a lot. He never looked like getting out. On the other hand Sachin has a couple of chancy knocks in world cups, but it never seemed like he would threaten us by winning a match for India (at the test level).

    I know that Sachin is synonymous with success in India, but Imran Khan, who is in all fairness a greater cricketer than Sachin, can’t win any votes despite his cricketing success in Pakistan. He is merely respected as a cricketer and meagerly respected as a politician. Now If Sachin were to stand for the post of prime minister in India, probably the prime minister would step down to accomodate him. So, the point is, there is a difference in psyche between the people of the two countries’, and I think in Pakistan we have other figures such as Iqbal and other poets /thinkers which are regarded much higher than just cricketers. So, akin to seeing the issue of Sachin with two different lenses: I see him as a cricketer and you see him as a symbol.

  25. #25 by Pawan on July 7, 2011 - 5:46 PM

    Sagaat,

    LOL @ Sachin being a selfish player. Are you from planet Earth?
    I too rest my case here like Bichoo
    Its too damn difficult for anyone to fall down to your level dude.

  26. #26 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 5:59 PM

    Pawan,

    I think we have all acknowledged how Tendulkar would slow down his strike-rate before reaching a hundred, how mad he was at a certain declaration, and so on…anyway, everyone is stooping low, whether its the Sri Lankan govt, or I don’t know which other videos, govts, and people of the world have been concerning you, and you are going up, up, and above towards the sky…looks like you could take the rest along with you to liberty ;)

    My point is simply that you should expect others to analyze Tendulkar as a player rather than blindly follow him. What I presented are hard facts and you can argue with them.

  27. #27 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 6:27 PM

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/4188.html?class=1;template=results;type=allround;view=innings

    If a score of 400 is to be counted as 4 100s, then:

    Don has 43 100s in 52 matches at 99.94

    Sachin has 55 100s in 177 matches at 56.94

    The Don plays 1.20 matches at average to score a 100
    Tendulkar plays 3.31 matches at average to score a 100.

    That is a difference of much higher than two times.

    I don’t know from which angle can both be compared? And who seriously compares them?

  28. #28 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 6:56 PM

    Now I mentioned untill three years ago I would have said Dravid was a better player than Tendulkar:
    These are Tendulkar’s filtered statistics till 3 years ago: Averaging 55.44

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;spanmax1=02+Jan+2008;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

    Dravid’s filtered statistics untill three years ago:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28114.html?class=1;spanmax1=02+Jan+2008;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

    averaging 55.33

    Pretty close statistically. But Dravid had a big 100 to turn a test match around in Australia and played another major innings along with Laxman in Calcutta. A couple of major performances which Tendulkar lacks. That is the reason I would have suggested him as being better 3 years ago. But now Tendulkar is clearly the better player. That is what the cold facts suggest.

  29. #29 by Bichoo on July 7, 2011 - 10:54 PM

    Sagaat,

    The only reason I am responding to some of the outlandish statements made by is because I do not want misconceptions to stand uncorrected. Otherwise, I am convinced getting into a conversation with you (if it can be called that) is a wasteful effort.

    First of all, I see Sachin as a cricketer, and all of India see it that way, he has earned the unadulterated support of masses through his deeds on cricket field as well as what he did not do outside of the cricket field. He is the child prodigy who lived up to every expectation and some more, and did not fall for the evils. Think, Amir, Asif, Kambli, Warne, even Lara who had his ego issues with the board. Sachin has been perfect, in batting and in his public life. Cannot ask for much more than that. Hence, people of India and Indian supporters see Sachin as a symbol of Indian cricket, a role model. Is that very hard to understand? not if you have some thinking capacity.

    Second, about your absurd statements, where do I begin, don’t even want to go into the rant you had about Test #1 status and the series win in England as fluke, not worth it. India dominated England in two tests after narrowly avoiding defeat in first one. They always play poorly in the tour opener, then come back very strong. Same thing happened in SA last year, lost first test, won second, and almost won third test. They are not a dominating side like WI were or Aus were, they will never be, but no is asking Pakistan or anyt other team not to grab that spot in the absence of stronger opposition. No one has, so India are it. They are #1, get over it.

    You say “I know that Sachin is synonymous with success in India, but Imran Khan, who is in all fairness a greater cricketer than Sachin”

    LOL, what an absurd comment, Imran Khan is a greater cricketer than Sachin, on what basis? I am not expecting an answer and I probably won’t read if you post something, because this is ridiculous comment. Have you seen Imran Khan play actually, other than archives? I have seen him, he was a good bowler and a mediocre bat, he was a good bowler on his good days, wasn’t as good was Wasim and Waqar. His batting was more based on defense and nudges and pushes, he wasn’t a great stroke maker, he did push up his average, but so did Ravi Shastri, a mediocre batter. No more comments on this.

    Another absurd comment of yours:
    Now If Sachin were to stand for the post of prime minister in India, probably the prime minister would step down to accomodate him. So, the point is, there is a difference in psyche between the people of the two countries’, and I think in Pakistan we have other figures such as Iqbal and other poets /thinkers which are regarded much higher than just cricketers. So, akin to seeing the issue of Sachin with two different lenses: I see him as a cricketer and you see him as a symbol.

    Sachin for Prime minister of India? seriously, what are you smoking. People of India are not stupid. Prime Minister of India is Dr. Manmohan Singh, noted Economist who reformed the country and took on a growth path as finance minister, and now leading the country through uncertain economic times all over the world, while Indian economy keeps chugging without too much problems. Pakistani people have chosen, or were forced upon rather, Asif Ali Zardari, noted crook and criminal.

    Do you actually think much before you type anything? or is this how you are really?

    Anyhow, I probably won’t respond anything to what you write, because you have shown a level of immaturity which I find hard to overcome :)

  30. #30 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 11:23 PM

    LOL Newguy,

    I love your response. You may laugh at my comments, but the fact is that it is I who am citing the most evidence for my comments?

    How could you say Sachin is a greater player than Imran Khan? Sachin is not even the greatest batsman by a long shot! Look at the comparison with the Don, no commentator seriously compares him with the Don, there is absolutely nothing that is comparable on a per match basis, and about everything differs from a factor of 2 or more.

    Now Imran Khan was an all rounder, two players in one. A batsman and a bowler. And a captain. His bowling average qualifies him as a great bowler as Sachin’s battting average qualifies him as a great batsman, but that is where the comparison stops. Imran Khan was a much better batsman than Tendulkar is a bowler. If you look at hard numbers, it is Imran Khan who is compoarable to the Don, not Sachin Tendulkar. Imran Khan peaked with a bowling average of around 18 as captain and a batting average of 57! A bowling average of 18 is comparable to a batting average of more than 60, so if you combine the batsman and the bowler, the comparison holds with the don. Apart from longevity, you find me a statistic where Tendulkar remotely compares with the Don?

  31. #31 by Sagaat on July 7, 2011 - 11:32 PM

    When I referred to the Sachin prime minister analogy, I was referring to the “democratic” popularity of Tendulkar. I realize what you mean that Tendulkar is a dream and symbol for India, probably fostered by the fact that cricket is a glue which unites the many disparate peoples within India which may have other than that a lot less in common. However, my point is, regardless of the status that Tendulkar has in India, it doesn’t mean that peope like Dravid shouldn’t speak their mind if they rationally and aesthetically feel that a different player was better. Certainly people outside India would be able to see the player more logically and rationally. There is the myth and the fact.

  32. #32 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 8, 2011 - 1:17 AM

    Bichoo, ahem ahem, khansahab is also in the making of a lawyer :D

  33. #33 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 8, 2011 - 1:31 AM

    Well, Sachin for the post of a Prime Minister? I won’t be surprised because, in the past Sunil Dutt the actor became MP, Navojot Sidhu a cricketer became an MP, Phoolan Devi a dacoit became not only an MP but, she also got a ministerial post in the Federal Govt. I dunno how many other movie stars or cricketers became politicians, may be Shatrughan Sinha too?

    As regards Imran as a politician my views are same as Sagaat‘s. If Imran was that great, he should have become the Prime Minister or President of Pakistan long ago. Since 1992, its more than 19 years, he is still struggling to get votes. He is not a politician and he was not a leader, as a captain of the Pakistan cricket team he was a dictator and I must say he is lucky to have won the world cup in 1992. Whereas, Shahid Afridi is unlucky not to win the WC 2011, his mediocre team played well throughout except for the semifinal. Whereas, Imran’s great team played badly throughout and then they played only the last 3 matches well and won the cup. In the second T20 WC, Shahid Afridi singlehandedly won the last three matches for Pakistan and also the cup. Anyways, cricket is by chance and look at Dhoni since he became captain he is riding on the lady luck called Paddu-kone hai? :D

  34. #34 by Bichoo on July 8, 2011 - 4:44 PM

    Pawan,

    What do you think of Rahul Dravid’s form and his continuation in the team?

    I am asking because despite a hundred in first test in WI and a half century in last test, I think he is taking up the #3 spot and denying development of youngsters. He has been a liability to the team over the last couple of years and the selectors and team management is letting him hang in there. It is clear that Dravid is playign only for himself these days. On the England tour, he should not be in the team, instead Laxman who is better equipped to come at #3 should play that spot, and #5 and #6 should go between the three of Pujara, Yuvraj, and Raina. Even if Pujara, Yuvraj, Raina don’t do great, it will be better for future as they will have experience playing in English conditions.

    I see Dravid failing miserably at #3 in England and creating pressure on team with his slow scoring.

    He has been a great servant of Indian cricket and during his peak one of the best batsman in the world, but now is must go. I am afraid though selectors and team management will not do this, and after he fails in England he will be allowed to fail again in Australia, then either he will retire or they will sack him. By then India will lose developing youngsters in two very important tours.

  35. #35 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 8, 2011 - 5:45 PM

    Bichoo,

    Imo, an experienced hand like Mohammad Yousuf in Pakistan, Dravid for India must play a little more to give the best he has. Secondly, I don’t think he is blocking juniors, India has too many juniors in line, even if Raina, UV and Pujara don’t play they have Rohit and a few others or, even Dhoni with his present form is not indispensable. I think you simply don’t like Dravid or you are opposing him even more because Sagaat has placed him above Tendulkar. The fact is Dravid is a good player in all forms of the game, when he was playing IPL they said, he is not the T20 type of player but, time and again he has scored good runs. Yar, we are bearing Misbah can’t you bear a genuine player like Dravid?

  36. #36 by Bichoo on July 8, 2011 - 8:10 PM

    Javed Khan,

    I knew it was obvious someone would ask why I posted on Dravid, just because there is a topic involving him, Tendulkar, and Sangakkara. However, you are totally mistaken. It is has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes for him or whatever Sagaat has said. That would be very childish if I reacted that way.

    Is that all you have observed about me from my blog postings?

    I don’t pay any attention to whatever Sagaat has to say, especially since I figured out he is Omer Admani, since he has a tendency to argue needlessly and not pay attention to what others are writing.

    I am asking the question that many people have had in their mind for the last 2 or 3 years. I like Dravid for the record. He is the second or third best Indian batsman, after Tendulkar and Gavaskar. I have waited for 3 years before asking this question, because I was giving time for him to get his touch back. But is seems like he has lost his touch with age and there is no way back to his prime.

    His average has been in the 40′s recently, and stats show whenever openers do well he has done well, exception being this series. But even today he was dismissed by Sammy where as in his prime he would have never fallen like that.

    As for seniors to mentor junior, there is Tendulkar and Laxman who are still in prime form. If you look at full strength Indian line up, it read:

    Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Raina / Yuvi, Dhoni. There is only one spot for a younger batsman. Dhoni’s position is that of WK / batsman, and even though he fails to score big, it is ok since he is WK and captain, not there as specialist bat.

    Tendulkar and Laxman are in prime form still and earn their spot. Dravid does not look like recovering back to who he was in his prime, what’s the point in having an aging batsman in decline.

    I seriously think he will struggle at the pivotal #3 spot in England. I will be happy to be proven wrong. But, perhaps it’s time to nurture youngsters for the eventual exit of these three batsmen. Otherwise all three will retire at same time and the younger lot would not be able to cope up.

    Again, no personal dislike for Dravid, or anything to do with recent comments, just pure analysis based on where the future is going for Indian test team.

  37. #37 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 8, 2011 - 10:12 PM

    Bichoo :D i wanted to see your reaction. I will reply later in detail, as I have to go now to attend something important.

  38. #38 by Pawan on July 9, 2011 - 6:50 AM

    Ah the curious case of Mr. Dravid… It’s hard to say Bichoo what will happen in England. Traditionally people like Dravid who believe in grinding down the bowling attack, wearing them down have succeeded in England. Remember someone by the name of Sanjay Bangar? I believe the last time or before that when India toured England, this guy Bangar was responsible for grinding many an innings along with Dravid to help India reach formidable positions. Bangar was our solution to a solid opener and a handy medium pace bowler. Sehwag-Gambhir pair had not been established by then and he was our make-shift opener, the nth opening combination selectors had tried. So my point is Dravid could come in handy where conditions demand batsmen to just hang in there. To me Dravid was never about flamboyance. As a matter of fact Tendulkar or Laxman have completely different temperament than Dravid. It is really just about hanging in there for Dravid. That is the way he has always played. I do think that we need such grinders in England, at least traditionally, we have seen, that for our team to succeed as a batting unit, we need to grind the English bowlers. In the current side, apart from Dravid, only Gambhir has the ability to grind down the opposition without much fuss. Of course not to forget Tendulkar – who is a class act and can adapt to any conditions like a fish to water – that’s why he is a legend.

    Out of the current lot, Pujara looks to me the closest to replace Dravid. I was impressed by his 70 odd contribution in India’s recent win against Australia. The question to replace Dravid on an England tour is quite a tricky one. First of all, it is never going to happen – to replace Dravid on an England tour from his one-down position will be very difficult if not impossible for selectors to do, especially since he has done OK in WI. You have keen insight in your study of Dravid’s recent form and you are right in indicating that the axe would fall on Dravid’s cricketing career if he indeed does not succeed on English soil this time round. To me, the mental conditioning of batsman is indicative of his form on field. Dravid is that sort of character who I think is a very fighter sorts. The moment he left captaincy or rather had to leave the post of captaincy, he lost his mental conditioning which has driven him so far. There was no doubt in my mind that it will be difficult for him to regain his earlier form after his stint at captaincy. Look at his form after he gave up captaincy, its miserable by his standards. He is that sort of introvert character which is quite difficult to handle. The only way he can get back to anywhere near his absolute best is if he fails miserably in England this time round and gets dropped. So when you say that he might fail in English conditions this time round – it will actually be a make or break thing for him and which will bring out the fighter in him. He seems to have lost the fight somewhere with his captaincy. He seems to have lost that zeal to play for his team. Where is that Rahul Dravid who even kept wickets for the team? The captaincy thing could have been the worst thing that happened to him. I mean look at his WI form – an ordinary bowler like Darren Sammy is claiming in public that he has found a chink in Dravid’s armor and goes out on field and delivers the rhetoric and the poor Dravid is a mere spineless victim? Nah. We don;t expect this from Dravid. He should have walked over this WI team in the absence of Tendulkar and Sehwag. There is no way in the world any of these WI bowlers can dismiss him, ad he had the right mental conditioning and set-up to face them.

    I don’t know if I have answered your question. But that to me is the current state of Dravid, the wall of India. If there is any fight left in him, he should not be satisfied by a mere hundred on a tour. By his experience, skills and technique he should be able to take on any bowler in the world currently. The problem is his mental set-up and the only life-line this mental set-up might get is if he fails miserably on England tour. Only then the selectors will turn to someone like Pujara. Only then there will be a challenge for Dravid and only then will the fighter in him will come back. If he does what he has done on WI tour, that is scoring average, but way below the best of Rahul Dravid, then selectors will not have enough justification to drop him from his legendary position in test cricket and will just prolong his slow death. In a way, what you say, that Dravid will fail, if that comes true, then it will be a blessing in disguise for him. But what about the team India?

  39. #39 by Bichoo on July 9, 2011 - 12:52 PM

    Pawan,

    I think you nailed what is ailing Dravid, this is the answer I was seeking. It’s his mental conditioning that seems to have lost him, I sometimes think his mind is wandering, even when he is in slips, or during a celebration when a wicket falls, I feel he is just there, but that pure joy of being part of the sport doesn’t seem to be there. Many times I have felt he is like a zombie.

    He stepped down from captaincy siting reason to focus on his batting, but since then his batting has become much worse. So surely I think he has lost the zeal. Perhaps as you say it’s too early to drop a class bat like him on a very important tour like England. Let’s hope he succeeds in providing the anchor. Actually, he has done much more than grinding down the opposition during his peak.

    I agree with you comment made by Sammy that he found a chink in Dravid’s armor, how can someone so technically accomplished accept a comment like that from a bowler like Sammy and then go on to gift him the wicket twice on same tour. After it’s Sammy, not Dale Steyn ;)

  40. #40 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 10, 2011 - 2:20 AM

    In his latest interview Ijaz Butt is saying “As far as I am concerned he (AFRIDI) is not captaincy material for the PCB anymore,” Butt told Geo Super television channel. “[As a player] he has done well in the past, he’s been a good cricketer for Pakistan, there’s no doubt about it.”

    Of course he will say this NOW. Because, Afridi chickened out or bowed under pressure, Also, he is saying that the 4th and 5th ODI that Pakistaan lost against WI is because of Afridi. First of all the 4th ODI was decided on D/L method and Pakistan lost by one run, had the match been played till 50 overs, WI would have never made it. The last match, we all know what happened. Still what Butt does not acknowledge is Afridi won the series.

    Also, he is not talking about Afridi’s captaincy during the WC and he should have acknowledged that with this pathetic team he took the team to the semi-finals after 12 years, which the ACE players Wasim, Waqar and Inzamam could not do so. So, why is he not talking about Afridi’s captaincy in the WC? THE CAT TOOK HIS TONGUE?

    Also, in the eyes of hundreds of millions of people and not just Pakistanis but all over the world, Butt is not fit for the job of the Chairman of a cricket board. In my opinion he is not even fit for the post of a doorman for any organization. HE is a trash person and needs to be DUMPED.

    Butt is saying: “The governor of Sindh rang up, talked to me for one hour,” Butt said. “[Former prime minister] Nawaz Sharif rang me. I told him, ‘Have a heart, this is not a political issue, this is something different.‘ We are not part of politics.” Butt said at least 15 to 20 other politicians contacted him, but he told everyone that if Afridi wanted to get clearance he had to follow the process. “If this is not followed I will definitely not budge whatever the pressure might be.”

    THIS IS NOT POLITICS? IF THIS IS NOT POLITICS, BUTT WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN CHAIRMAN OF THE PCB, HE IS APPOINTED BY THE POLITICIANS, WTF IS HE TALKING? HE DOESN’T KNOW THAT EACH TIME HE OPENS HIS BUTT, THE STENCH IS OOZING OUT.

  41. #41 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 10, 2011 - 2:31 AM

    I think you guys are not happy with Dravid’s current performance in this match. Dhoni was also not performing since a long time and now in this match he scored 74 runs. The reason I like Dravid is because, he is not only a very good player, but he never shows attitude, he is a good ambassador for India, whereas, Dhoni is arrogant and have attitude problems and he still gets away with that because of his celebrity status. He is very lucky to get that status and his fans and supporters are simply idiots because, he neither has that kinda records which Tendulkar and Dravid holds nor, he is as senior as they are. Media has made him big and he is taking advantage of it. Otherwise, if you compare Dhoni with Sangakara, Dhoni like Pawan says, ” Uskay Chamchaon kay paaon ki bhee dhool nahee.” Frankly speaking, I don’t like Dhoni, Yuvraj, Gambhir and Harbhajan’s attitude. Although that bander sreesanth at times makes things worst but, he is not as famous as these guys. Only God knows what he would have done if he was as famous as them?

  42. #42 by Pawan on July 11, 2011 - 4:39 PM

    Hey guys

    ICC is selecting all-time dream test team on the occasion of 2000th test being played between India and England from July 21st – 25th.

    Please select your team and post here. Following is the shortlisted ICC candidates for all-time test team:

    Opening batsmen: Geoffrey Boycott, Sunil Gavaskar, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes, Jack Hobbs, Len Hutton, Hanif Mohammad, Virender Sehwag, Herbert Sutcliffe, Victor Trumper.

    Middle-order batsmen: Don Bradman, Greg Chappell, Wally Hammond, George Headley, Brian Lara, Javed Miandad, Graeme Pollock, Ricky Ponting, Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar.

    All-rounder: Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Aubrey Faulkner, Richard Hadlee, Jacques Kallis, Imran Khan, Keith Miller, Wilfred Rhodes, Gary Sobers, Frank Worrell.

    Wicketkeepers: Les Ames, Mark Boucher, Jeff Dujon, Godfrey Evans, Andy Flower, Adam Gilchrist, Alan Knott, Rod Marsh, Clyde Walcott, Wasim Bari.

    Fast bowlers: Curtley Ambrose, Sydney Barnes, Michael Holding, Dennis Lillee, Ray Lindwall, Malcolm Marshall, Glenn McGrath, Fred Trueman, Courtney Walsh, Wasim Akram.

    Spinners: Bishen Bedi, Richie Benaud, Lance Gibbs, Clarrie Grimmett, Jim Laker, Anil Kumble, Muttiah Muralitharan, Bill O’Reilly, Derek Underwood, Shane Warne.

  43. #43 by Pawan on July 11, 2011 - 5:06 PM

    For me, this would be the best test team ever:

    1. Jack Hobbs
    2. Sunil Gavaskar
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Sachin Tendulkar
    5. Viv Richards
    6. Gary Sobers
    7. Andy Flower
    8. Malcolm Marshall
    9. Shane Warne
    10. Wasim Akram
    11. Glenn McGrath

  44. #44 by Sagaat on July 12, 2011 - 1:05 AM

    For me this would be the best team ever:

    Sehwag
    Gavaskar
    Bradman
    Graeme Pollock
    Richards
    Gary Sobers
    Imran Khan
    Ghilcrist
    Wasim Akram
    Curtley Ambrose
    Muralidaran

    I’d play two all rounders, because Imran Khan as a bowler is as good as any. He bowled well on Indian and Pakistan pitches as well. Just because of this change, my team would be statistically superior to any team with one all rounder.

  45. #45 by Bichoo on July 12, 2011 - 2:10 AM

    My team would be built around match winning strike bowlers, batsmen will be technically sound and at the same time attacking. Only one true all-rounder. With Sobers at #6 and Gilchrist coming at #7, the batting will never get out twice, then can go for all out attacking bowlers.

    Hobbs
    Greenidge
    Bradman
    Tendulkar
    Richards
    Sobers
    Gilchrist
    Marshal
    Akram
    Warne
    Lillee

    I could go with Ambrose / McGrath for Akram, but Akram being left arm and ability in sub-continental conditions edge out them.

    This team would be invincible.

  46. #46 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 12, 2011 - 12:02 PM

    Hey guys, I don’t want to make my team, because there is no point in bringing the dead men alive, we will always disagree with that.

    According to some sources, SPEAKING IN PUSHTO LANGUAGE IS BANNED IN PAKISTANI DRESSING ROOM! Wow, if this is true then Butt should get another medal of honour on his BUM.

  47. #47 by Pawan on July 12, 2011 - 4:12 PM

    Hey guys

    Interesting team compositions..

    Here is something to laugh and amuse – Famous sledges in cricket

    Fast bowling great Fred Truman would have a go at his own team-mates, never mind the other team, if he thought they’d done him wrong. After an outside edge flew through the legs of a slip fielder, the guilty party – Raman Subba Row – trotted up to apologise: “Sorry Fred, I should have kept my legs together.” Truman responded, “So should your mother.”

    Ian Botham could always give as good as he got. When he came to the crease Aussie ‘keeper Rod Marsh said cheerfully: ‘How’s your wife and my kids?’ Botham is said to have replied: “The wife’s fine. The kids are retarded.”

    During the 1991 Adelaide Test, Javed Miandad had said publicly that Hughes looked like a fat bus conductor. Big Merv dismissed the Pakistani soon after, running passed the batsman yelling, “Tickets please!”

    Hughes was an enthusiastic sledger and targeted Graeme Hick for his venom, viewing him as weak at the mental side of the game. “Mate,” he would say, “if you just turn the bat over, you’ll find the instructions on the other side.” Or: “Does your husband play cricket as well?’

    After beating the bat on a number of occasions Shaun Pollock told Ricky Ponting, “It’s red, its round and weighs about 5 ounces.” Ponting hit the next ball out of the ground. He jibed, “You know what it looks like, go and find it.”

  48. #48 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 13, 2011 - 2:57 AM

    LOL. I have read these and many more and it is always good to read again and laugh. There is a good one about McGrath which I forgot so if you can find that one please post it here, reportedly McGrath is the one who started and then lost his cool……… I have found it on the internet.

    McGrath to Ramnaresh Sarwan: “So what does Brian Lara’s di*k taste like?”Sarwan: “I don’t know. Ask your wife.

    McGrath (lost his cool): “If you ever F**king mention my wife again, I’ll F**king rip your F**ing throat out.”

    http://mysportsblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/ten-most-hilarious-sledging-incidents-in-world-cricket/

    Another good one on McGrath and his poor wife a cancer patient.

    Aussie paceman Glenn McGrath was bowling to Zimbabwe number 11 Eddo Brandes – who was just missing each ball. McGrath, frustrated, went to him and inquired: “Why are you so fat?”Quick as a flash, Brandes replied, “Because every time I make love to your wife, she gives me a biscuit.”

    http://mysportsblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/ten-most-hilarious-sledging-incidents-in-world-cricket/

  49. #49 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 13, 2011 - 12:43 PM

    Somewhere on cricinfo I have read that, INDIA WINS SERIES, BUT COULD NOT STAMP AUTHORITY. Same is the case with Pakistan in West Indies. A third rated WI team gave them tough time and both India and Pakistan gave them the confidence they needed hence they are boasting that by 2015 they will be in top 5. Well, both these teams made players like Sammy a hero who in fact cannot find a place in the team if he is not the captain. Also, Bichoo got so much attention just like BAW Mendis and some day when he will be out of the Caribbean on hard and fast wickets he will be sent to cleaners.

  50. #50 by Konquest on July 13, 2011 - 2:26 PM

    Dear bloggers

    I have been absent from the blog due to some personal reasons, but I have been reading the blog almost daily. At times I have felt the inclination to write, but have just not been able to do so. I envisage being absent for some time after this but please keep writing. Soon, I hope to be back on the blog and Inshallah I will be writing regularly again.

    Pawan, it was very nice of you to call me on the blog in the way you did a few weeks ago.

    During my absence there were some important discussions between bloggers.

    The India- West Indies series was competitive but both teams played negative cricket. I think India was too scared of losing so they decided it is better to be slow and reactive. West Indies is a lot like Pakistan- their best batsman, Chanderpaul is not afraid of playing slow and drawing or even potentially losing matches, like Pakistan’s Misbah. Their openers are extremely inconsistent and like Pakistan, they have no stable opening pair. Every now and then some youngster performs commendably but then there is no consistently. There are no match winners. The likes of Bravo, Sammy and Rampaul occasionally raise their game and show mettle, but again the problem is consistency. Players throw tantrums, there is no unity, and players are not appointed in important positions on merit.

    There was some discussion about Dravid. Dravid is obviously not the same player he was 2-3 years ago, but he has been one of the team’s spearheads and he has been involved in so many of the team’s victories that I don’t think the BCCI wants to remove him. Dravid and Laxman both have saved and won India many matches. Even in 2011 the batting order of Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman has no match. So, I think the BCCI can be forgiven for persisting with Dravid. I don’t think Sehwag and Gambhir played a single Test? Neither did I see Tendulkar.
    In this batting order, Sehwag provides the team with the facility that if he performs, the chances of the team’s victory will be 90%+, Gambhir and Tendulkar provide reliability and consistency, whereas Laxman and Dravid are guaranteed match savers.
    As there were some youngsters in the team this time round I don’t think the BCCI made a bad decision to persist with Dravid despite his relatively unimpressive performance.

    Coming to who is the best as between SRT, Bradman, Lara and Dravid, I think is it pointless to involve Bradman amongst these players who played in a totally different era. Bradman played when bowling did not have many restrictions, fielding standards were poorer, pitches were not as pro batting and bowlers did not have so much variety in their repertoire. So, it is very difficult to pinpoint his level of skill.

    As between Lara, SRT and Dravid, objectively speaking SRT is the best in my opinion, although the reason why I personally like Dravid more is because he was at his peak at the time when I was most enthusiastic about cricket. His defence was impenetrable and he was extremely proficient when playing difficult bowling on difficult pitches.

    The reason I don’t rate Lara as highly as SRT is because firstly, being left handed, it was always easier for Lara to score runs than SRT. It is a fact that left handed batsmen score more freely than right handed ones, just as how left handed bowlers are more difficult to pick because they tend to bowl around the wicket at an angle. Lara does not have as great a record against Australia, the best team of his generation. SRT has a better batting average pretty much everywhere in the world as opposed to Lara.

    It is a very subjective comparison dependent on which factors a person holds are more important than others. I have said the same thing in the past as well- for me the more important factors are, whether someone was right handed or left handed, how this batsman was against the top teams and most difficult pitches of his era.

    There is obviously a lot of logic in the way Sagaat stresses the need for match winning potential which in SRT’s case is dubious. However this is just one factor amongst many, and unlike Sagaat I will not rule that Lara or Laxman were better than SRT simply because of this one factor. About making 300s and 400s in a single inning- I have always felt that it is quality of runs over quantity that matters. Often we see that the opposition loses confidence when the batsman surpasses 150 or 200, and then it is more due to the batsman’s tiredness or lack of application that he is dismissed, as opposed to the planning or strategy of the bowling opposition.

    Apart from all these factors, the reason why I feel SRT is the best batsman, is simply because of the shots he creates, and especially how he deals with good deliveries. There are many shots which he has pioneered and others have only followed, such as the flick to mid off or on over the bowler’s head, the backfoot punch to covers, or the leg glance towards midwicket or square leg. He was the first batsman I saw who was able to manoeuvre a 90mph ball outside off stump to midwicket with perfect timing and placement.

    So for these reasons, my view is that SRT is better than Lara and Dravid.

    As for the Pakistan team, this is now a fact, and not a conspiracy theory or paranoia, that Pakistan is at the same Test level as West Indies. Afridi was the last match winner and how he is gone. Wahab Riaz is performing well in county cricket, but every Pakistani bowler exploits the good bowling conditions of county, but cannot replicate that performance elsewhere. The captain Misbah is a negative player who is too old to lead the team. Due to the PCB’s questionable selection policies such as persistence with Shoaib Malik, Misbah and Akmal and treatment of Afridi, Fawad Alam etc Pakistan is now left with a mediocre team at best. The only way to improve the team is to identify players who have won matches in the past, or have otherwise shown gutsiness (Afridi, Ajmal, F Alam, Kaneria) and build a team around them. Pakistan does not have excellent domestic facilities or world class training system that they will produce Pontings and Alistair Cooks or players like that, they just need to harness raw talent and build a team around those players. I was against picking players like Kaneria because his performance had become zero, however since there has not been any exceptional Test level talent since Kaneria’s exit from the team, perhaps the PCB should include him again. I also feel that the treatment of Asim Kamal is a huge reason why Pakistan is struggling today- that was a blatant massacre of talent. Similarly, Fawad Alam’s confidence will now be shattered and cricketers are not robots that you can programme and function them to perform as and when you want. The bottom line is that you have to prefer those players who show guts. Nowhere else in the world can you discard a player who made 8 fifties in 13 innings or discard a player who made a century on debut after just 3-4 matches. This is criminal and the people who made these decisions in the PCB should be brought to justice.

  51. #51 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 13, 2011 - 3:39 PM

    Konquest welcome back to the blog. Good to see you back into form. Hopefully you are on top of your work now and don’t let it get on top of you again. :D

  52. #52 by Mohhammed Munir on July 14, 2011 - 9:09 AM

    Dear All,

    It’s been a long long time since I wrote, read or even visited LS …. or at least so I think. ;)

    Konquest = KS, Saggat = OA, Bichoo = NG, ….. what’s happening to our bloggers :?: ;)

    Only Javed Ali Khan is left original here. :P

    Anyways, just peeped in to say “HALLO” to all.

    BTW, I am in “Timbuktoo” enjoying my holidays with family.

    Lucky enough to find some time and also internet connection too.

    C Yaall,

    Cheers,

  53. #53 by Bichoo on July 14, 2011 - 12:10 PM

    Hi Munir,

    Out of all those name changers you mentioned, only I have a legitimate need to get a new name since I never had a name, remember I was just a “new guy” :)

  54. #54 by Bichoo on July 14, 2011 - 12:27 PM

    Much has been written and much is still being written about India’s lack of will to chase 180 runs off 47 overs to win the 3rd test in Dominica.

    Most of it is written by two types of people (1) overly critical Indian fans (2) those who criticize Indian team no matter what

    Most of them do not understand cricket, let alone Test cricket. 3rd test was not won when India could not separate Chanderpaul and Fidel Edwards for 37 overs, simple. If you can’t get a #8 and below batsman out for over 100 balls bowled at him then you simply can’t force wins.

    A team that has openers reading as Abhinav Mukund and Murali Vijay is not going to chase 180 odd runs in 47 overs on a wearing 5th day pitch with opposition bowling wide of leg stump.

    Those fans who point to W.I team of old with openers that read Greenidge and Haynes and the Australian team that has openers with names like Langer and Hayden, do not understand cricket at all.

    Inspite of all that, had it not rained for 1 and half day in Barbados, effectively making it a 3 and half day test, India would have been still 2-0 up. In Barbados, WI hung on by the skin of their teeth when umpires called off game. Another hour or two and India would have won. Similarly in Dominica, had it not rained out one full day of play, India would have still won easily making it 3-0.

    Under the conditions and given the team that toured W.I, they needed at least 60 overs to chase 180, they would have had it if either of (1) it not rained or (2) they got out Fidel Edwards early.

    All this talk about not dominating is rubbish, and W.I making improvement is even more rubbish. In reality, WI never came anywhere close to defeating this weakened India team. All this talk by Sammy is BS.

    As for India, Dhoni and the team knows their real abilities and it is good to see them playing to that, instead of jumping to the overzealous fans wishes to be dominating team. India is not a dominating team like the WI of old or Australia of old, they are just very hard to beat in Test cricket over a series at present, that is all, and they go for the win when the win looks probable for them.

  55. #55 by Sagaat on July 14, 2011 - 4:38 PM

    Khansahab, Bichoo, and Pawan,

    Let me clarify this: I didn’t say Dravid is a better player than Tendulkar and I said that Laxman in some aspects of batting is a better player than Tendulkar. I pointed that overall Tendulkar is a better player than Dravid. In my opinion Laxman has a beautiful, almost artistic style of play. Besides that, Laxman is a great matchwinner. In that sense, and that sense only, Laxman is a better player than Tendulkar. Overall Tendulkar is a better player than both.

    On the Don, it is clear that in his own time he is way above the rest. If bowling standard, pitches etc were relatively easier then, other batsmen of his era would have averaged much higher, too. I think the don is way above the rest. Then we have Viv Richards, Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Graeme Pollock, Gary Sobers, Sehwag, Gavaskar etc…..and they can be compared and it would be a matter of opinion, who is the better player. I’d say some would pick Tendulkar for longevity and consistency, but then some would find the much higher average of Graeme Pollock appealing, while some would point to Lara’s brilliant individual knocks, and the rest might point to Viv Richards dominating presence. Each opinion is valid I suppose.

  56. #56 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 14, 2011 - 10:04 PM

    Everybody, please don’t forget that Gavaskar played against the most furious and fastest battery of fast bowlers ever and without much body protection gears and twice he scored 600 and 700 runs in a series in West Indies against the West Indies, against the likes of Holding, Robert, Marshal, Garner etc. So, give him the credit. I criticize him and make fun of him for his lust for records but, that is his weakness and we all have some but, as a batsman he did wonders against the West Indies and NO other player in the world has achieved that kinda batting figures and average against those great bowlers.

  57. #57 by Bichoo on July 15, 2011 - 1:37 AM

    Breaking news coming out of Indian camp on England tour is that Sehwag is going to miss first two tests, and not even sure he can make for third and fourth test. This is certainly a big blow to the team from a psychological standpoint as Sehwag is one batsman that puts opposition under mental pressure even before the game begins. Mukund will be his replacement, although Gambhir who is returning from an injury is available, the mental advantage is missing.

  58. #58 by Bichoo on July 15, 2011 - 1:46 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Here you go, umpire Daryl Harper is lashing out against MS Dhoni for his public remarks about poor umpiring in second test that Harper officiated. Harper wants Dhoni punished, while his own countryman and former captain Ricky Ponting is walking around unscathed after intimidating umpire Aleem Dar. What a joke, this Daryl is. Australians whining and complaining about too much power being abused, shocking it must be for them.

  59. #59 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 15, 2011 - 3:14 PM

    Bichoo

    Whether it is Harper or Hair, they all have brotherhood bonds and I knew that at one point they will hit back at Dhoni, because no one said a word against Dhoni and he shouldn’t have been initiating such statements. Had Dhoni retorted then he would have had full support from me but, it was he who started this word game and they will come after him for sure. So, when you throw a stone in the beehive be prepared for a counter attack.

  60. #60 by Pawan on July 16, 2011 - 11:09 PM

    Konquest,

    This is your and Javed Khan’s blog, so I won’t say welcome to you.. It’s like your own home.
    But very balanced comments and I am glad to see you back.
    We would like to see your unbiased comments on Ind-Eng series.

  61. #61 by salman on July 16, 2011 - 11:51 PM

    @Konquest,

    about your comment about Misbah being too old. He is 37 years old and that should not be a reason for him not to be captain if he is otherwise fit, especially if the idea is for him to occupy the position until a long term replacement is found. Additionally, if my information is correct, he is amongst the few players who are true about their age. Afridi is officially 31 years old,
    which means he and Misbah are probably of similar ages.

  62. #62 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 17, 2011 - 5:47 AM

    Salman

    There is no unofficial age about Afridi, it is just a myth that he older than his official age. See his photos when he scored that fastest hundred he looks like a puppoo without any beard and mustache. Secondly, ALL Pathans look older than their age unlike ALL Chinese look younger than their age. This is all genetics, Tendulkar still looks younger than his age, so? There is definitely a bias against Afridi, like I said before I don’t support him blindly but, here he is definitely under the scanner for no reason. Look at Kallis he looks like he is 45 years old. Has anyone ever raised a question against Kallis? John Embury of England used to look like 54 years old, whereas he was officially only 42 years old when he played the last test. I saw him in person he looked ancient at that time,

    As regards Misbah more than his age, he is a negative player like our Jethro Malik used to be and he was a real Meesna but, Misbah is slowly but surely is walking on the same steps. Konquest point is, when you make a Captain you should think of future and not just about today. Afridi was and he still is the best choice for ODI and T20 captaincy if Ijaz Butt is saying he is not captaincy material he is negating his own decision because he is the one who appointed him the captain and not once but a few times and Afridi proved to be better than Wasim, Waqar and Inzamam as captains because after 12 years it was Afridi who took the team to the semifinals, why do they call him NOT A CAPTAINCY MATERIAL? Just because he is not a YES MAN like Misbah, Malik and even Younus Khan. I am disappointed by Afridi for withdrawing the court case against Butt, he should now drag him once again to the court for using such derogatory and unwanted comments against Afridi, being the Chairman does not mean he has a LICENSE TO KILL. If that is the case then call him JAMES BUTT.

  63. #63 by Sagaat on July 17, 2011 - 12:23 PM

    Konquest,

    I thought there are a couple of points worth mentioning as regards to the Lara-Tendulkar comparison. You have certainly raised valid points, but they also require more thorough deliberation.

    Firstly, if it were easier for left-handers to score than right-handers, then Viv Richards, Donald Bradmans, etc would be disproportionately left-handed. Even amongst contemporary greats, if you look at SRT, Inzamam, Mohd Yousof, Ponting, Jayawardena, Pieterson etc, most of these are right-handed. What you are suggesting doesn’t have much credence without concrete evidence.

    Secondly, Lara was, by far, the better player against the ‘best team in the world’. When Australia was the best team in the world, that is, with Mcgrath as the spearhead rather than Lee, it was Lara who played some magnificient knocks against them. His average is much higher against Mcgrath than SRT. SRT fed off Lee after Mcgrath retired and his average became a lot higher afterwards. Brett Lee averages more than 30, so what was claimed as the “battle between Lee and Tendulkar” might equally stand along with the battles that Tendulkar had with a certain obscure Mohammad Akram. Just because Lee is Australian shouldn’t make him better than he was…and Tendulkar made a double-hundred, feeding of Lee without Mcgrath that inflated his average…Lara has played the second-best knock in history of the game against the great Australian team in extremely tough conditions to ‘win a match’.

    Lastly, I am not sure which shots Tendulkar has created ( I have seen other batsmen do the flickto the leg side to balls outside off-stump–Ponting I believe does it). . From what I can see, SRT clearly exagerrates his movements a lot to give the shots an aesthetic sense. It would be a simple straight drive, but unlike other batsmen, SRT would pose for 10-15 seconds after the drive to exagerrate the balance he held at the occasion of making the shot, or to keep his arms in a sturdy position for a prolonged period to pronounce the command he had over the shot. This is in sharp contrast to the intrinsic beauty of Lara’s shots, the beautiful cuts, movement of wrists, arms, and the overall guile of the magician.

  64. #64 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 17, 2011 - 2:42 PM

    In my opinion Lara is the most STYLISH player ever. And, Dhoni’s shots are the ugliest shots from any recognized batsmen, especially the jerks in his body when he plays the shots, there is no grace, no poise, no charm, no elegance, no nothing whatsover, bus ek JHATKAYWALA lagta hai wo……….. may be Salman knows the meaning of this wala, it has a dual meaning to it.

    I also agree with Sagaat that Konquest is over-praising SRT for creating shots, actually there is none that I have seen he has created, Dhoni created one and he used to play that behind the keeper with a rolling jhatka and Dilshan created a scoop, Mushtaq Mohammad created reverse flick and Miandad improvised it and Misbah messed it up and gotten out on some extremely crucial moments, that proves the point that he is a nothing and negative player, who never won any match for Pakistan on the hand he has lost quiet a few and contributed in losing quiet a few.

  65. #65 by Mohhammed Munir on July 17, 2011 - 4:59 PM

    LOL @ James Butt ….

    It should be a …. JAMES JUTT

    PS: For those who don’t know what JUTT is …..

    JUTT = Kamla + Pagla + Deewana. ;)

  66. #66 by Mohhammed Munir on July 17, 2011 - 5:05 PM

    Remember The Pepsi ad…..

    Dhoni created the “Helicopter” Shot. ;)

    BTW, no matter how ugly Dhoni plays his shots, as long as he is effective, he is ‘Paaras’ for India.

    Jo Dikhta Hai, Wo Bikta Hai. :lol:

  67. #67 by Mohhammed Munir on July 17, 2011 - 5:12 PM

    On Lara & SRT …

    Personally speaking, I will go for LARA because being a natural stroke player and a left-hander, Lara was “pleasant” to eyes and more stylish than Sachin.

    Sachin, no doubt, is very effective, have more records and he is even better all-round player, but Lara was attacking, rather dominating player and had more grace and style than Sachin.

  68. #68 by Konquest on July 17, 2011 - 6:11 PM

    Sagaat

    I don’t know what kind of evidence you expect when I say that left handed batsmen find it easier to score runs than right handed ones and that left handed bowlers are more difficult to pick for right handed batsmen. This is common sense and a 10 year old kid knows this. The majority of bowlers are right handed and when a left hander takes strike it is not very easy for the bowler to adjust his line. You see commentators speak about this in every other match. I am sure even McGrath had this difficulty to a certain extent against Lara. If you want a complete and impartial analysis then you have to accept that Lara had it easier because he was left handed (amongst other factors). I have used the same argument to compare Wasim and Waqar as well- to me Waqar was a better bowler because of Wasim’s unusual angle and action (amongst other factors).

    I did not see Viv Richards or Bradman bat, and I don’t want to provide an opinion based on statistics only when I haven’t seen either play. Maybe Richards was exceptionally talented, maybe even more so than Lara or SRT, which is why he apparently dominated every bowler and is generally considered to be one of the best batsmen of all time.

    Tendulkar has made a century in every Test series he played against Australia except one and I think this series where he didn’t score a 100 was just a one-off match. I have just checked this on Statsguru. Now it was either his misfortune or fortune that McGrath only played in 2 of those series, once in 1999 and once in 2001- in both SRT scored centuries. He made 154 and 153 in one series in Australia in 2008 at a time when Lee, Johnson and Clark were at their peak. This was the time when Stuart Clark was taking a five wicket haul in every other match. To me it is more heroic for a batsman to dominate these 3 on their home ground at their peak, than to generally dominate McGrath throughout his career. And I am being liberal here with words because McGrath only played in 2 Test series in which SRT played. And the 2 centuries he made against McGrath, in 1999 and 2001 was at the very time when McGrath was at his peak.

    Lara averaged 42 in Australia, 49 in England, 37 in NZ and 47 in SA. SRT averaged 58 in Australia, 62 in England, 50 in NZ and 46 in SA. To me it is very clear that SRT was the better batsman on bowling pitches and as I have indicated earlier this is a huge factor for me in judging a player’s calibre. Umar Gul on a bowling pitch is more threatening than many great bowlers on batting pitches. So, the pitch is extremely important.

    About McGrath vs Lee, McGrath is not as good as a bowler as you are making him out to be, and neither is Lee as bad a bowler. I accept generally speaking McGrath is better, but there is not as big a difference as you are trying to put across. You compared Akhtar with Lee and said Akhtar is a better bowler, which I agree with you he is, but Lee has a cleaner action and I think whatever kind of action Akhtar has, assists greatly in facilitating his pace and I am not convinced it is a clean action. If he has a hyperextension or deformity or whatever, he should play in some special cricket for deformed people and Malinga and Murali can play with him.

    I never said that the flick to leg from outside off was created by SRT- if you read carefully you will realise that I said he was the first batsman I saw who did that. I remember that flick over the bowler’s head, he started doing that against Damien Fleming, that was the time when Fleming used to bowl what has become known as “banana swing”. I have also seen commentators say that he started playing that backfoot punch in that way, and that leg glance that goes to the boundary, I think he started that against West Indies.

    Yes, he does like to check his shot and also does it for showmanship- there is nothing wrong with that. You can call it “showing the maker’s name” (although you also say that when the batsman middles it) or you can say, someone did that in the follow up. I don’t know why you need to express this in such a critical way as you have done. I don’t think he does that after a simple straight drive- he usually does that when the shot is exceptional. It is not just his balance, it is also the placement, the timing – it is just the entire art of batsmanship.

    This discussion is about endorsing a particular player or scoring points or anything and since I have a lot of respect for Lara I don’t want to criticise him in any way. But, although his foot movement was fun to watch, it was over zealous and there was a lot of showmanship about that too. Often, he danced too much on the pitch, it was unnecessary. But, that is what made his batting “stylish” and fun to watch. Similarly that hook and pull where he used to raise his right leg- it was unnecessary, but it looked cool, and it was stylish.

    This post is obviously all about Test cricket, and I have until now refrained from mentioning ODI’s because you don’t consider ODI’s to be the right test for ability. I accept that Test cricket is in many ways the real deal, but even if one accepts that Lara is better than SRT in Tests, the difference would be nominal at best. However in ODI cricket, SRT is miles above Lara- there is no comparison. So, if one was to look at the 2 most crucial forms of cricket holistically, SRT would easily overtake Lara and this is why most people say he is the best batsman of all time.

    Finally, I agree that Lara had more match winning ability than SRT in Test cricket. Again, you can probe deep into this and look at actual match situations, such as when Lara scored that 153 against Australia which you claim to be the 2nd best Test innings of all time (maybe you are claiming this because a poll or magazine claimed it), Curtly Ambrose who normally couldn’t hold a bat, survived 39 balls. For someone whose batting was like Ambrose’s, this was something unsual especially in that kind of pressure situation. One can look deeper and analyse how often SRT found himself in those situations and how supportive the likes of Srinath, Prasad, Nehra etc were like.

  69. #69 by Sagaat on July 17, 2011 - 7:00 PM

    Khansahab,

    First of all I would like to address your last paragraph. Why is it that every time there is a question mark over Sachin’s matchwinning ability, his ‘endorsers’ point to, basically, “how the world was against him”. How he was the only good player in the team standing up, or how no-one supported him, and so on…the question is not where the rest were, the question is where was he when the rest needed him. India has had the best batting line-up in the world and there was always Laxman playing the lone ranger, or Dravid, or someone else…it is just that Tendulkar could never join them to in the party when the situation was tough. It is not about him, it is about the team. For instance, where was he in so many of India’s famous wins, such as the one in Calcutta where Dravid and Laxman stood up to the onslaught of the great Glenn Mcgrath, or in Australia when India drew the test series (again Laxman and Dravid played remarkable knocks). What you see when you point to Curtley Ambrose is the one time Lara was supported, not the many times he wasn’t supported. Just because he made the best of the situation shows that he is a matchwinner. It is not as though the whole world will combine to gift Sachin a situation to play a remarkable knock, it is him who has to make the best of the tough situations he gets…and then if he plays well in 4 tough situations, he may turn a match once. That is how the numbers simply churn up.

    There is a humongous difference between Mcgrath and Lee. Just look at Lee’s averages outside Australia. Australia was a great team when Mcgrath played, and it wasn’t remotely dominant after Mcgrath retired. On pure effeciency, Mcgrath was a much superior bowler to Akram, Ambrose, etc…Lee averages above 30, how is he comparable to the great Glenn Mcgrath? You are combining Clarke, Lee, and Jhonson– but I would like to ask, all these bowlers are there now, why can’t Australia play them together and replicate their dominance if they are anything like Glenn Mcgrath?
    All these bowlers were good bowlers, whether Damien Fleming, Gellespie, Lee, etc, but they were standing on the shoulders of a giant, and were only so good because Mcgrath was that good. One is the foundation, the rest supplement the foundation.

    You are comparing the averges of Lara and Tendulkar without any context. You should take W&W, Pollock and Donald, Mcgrath, Murali, etc, and then compare the averages, the matchwinning knocks, etc…Tendulkar feeding off mediocrity after many greats retire and thus inflating his averages after Lara– and many great bowlers– retire doesn’t justify the comparison.

    On the left-handers versus right-handers point that you make, you could show that left-handers as a group average higher in the game than right-handers and thus possess an advantage over right-handers. At a cursory glance I can’t think of how that can be true.

    In any case we all have our opinions. You can’t say that objectively Tendulkar is the better player, because opinions are subjective to begin with. There is only better and worse reasoning, and I think when I provide my reasons, I have to work against many myths, propagandas, and dogmas in cricket. There is a lot written about in cricket and a lot spoken compared to many other sports, which leads to many myths. What we are going to discuss, though, is hard evidence. I can’t believe that it is proposed that left-handers have an advantage over right-handers in scoring runs.

  70. #70 by Konquest on July 17, 2011 - 7:54 PM

    Sagaat

    I said that what happened in those situations when a match was needed to be won and SRT was batting with tailenders, needs to be looked into. I was not saying definitively that it is the rest of the world’s fault. In one of my earlier comments I did say clearly that SRT’s match winning ability is dubious (or I might have used the word, “suspect”). In any case, I agree that Laxman and Dravid have it to their advantage that they have saved and won many matches. Having said that, I maintain that what Ambrose did in Lara’s 2nd best innings of all time was probably Ambrose’s best knock of all time. Even if I am to accept Lara was a better match winner, then that doesn’t make him to be a better batsman. Also, cricket is a team game a batsman is heavily dependant on what support the other batsman on the ground is offering. This is all the more reason that factors such as batting averages and what pitches those runs are scored on should be much more relevant than what matches were won and how.

    I can’t understand what kind of evidence would satisfy you that left handers have an advantage over right handers whether in bowling or not. To me it is as clear as black and white. There is a greater pool of right handers than left. Lefties are a rarity. Bowlers and batsmen both generally tend to practise against right handers (or let’s just say 80% of practice time is devoted to right handers). Hence, bowling or batting to a left hander is more difficult. I think we would have to seek some medical opinion about, how a bowler’s mind, action, line, muscles, bones, joints, elbow (and God knows what else) react when they have to do something a little differently, when a left hander takes strike because that is something that happens rarely compared to right handers. If you want to go down medical science, then I have heard that, this is something to do with the way the human body transfers weight, but it is that left handers can hit off side strokes with more power than right handers, and they hit leg side strokes with equal power. Beyond this I can’t explain medical science but on this occasion I am convinced I am right and you are wrong and here I am speaking extremely objectively.

    McGrath was ONE of the reasons and not THE reason why Australia was dominant. Shane Warne was probably Australia’s greatest match winner. During the time of McGrath you ALSO had Gilchrist, you had Hayden- who was just unstoppable at one time, you had a very good Ponting, you had arguably the best captain of the modern era- Steve Waugh, you had Bevan. The reason why Australia lost their dominance is more to do with losing Warne and Hayden, than losing McGrath. That is because, when they lost McGrath they had Lee, Clark, Johnson, Siddle- all these guys who although could not replace McGrath, they still left a mark. But, there was no one to even remotely take the place of Hayden, Gilchrist or Warne. What you are trying to do is to just cling on to one point, that Lara was fortunate to play in more matches where McGrath was playing as opposed to SRT, and in the process of doing so you are ignoring half the invincible Australian team. This is just like how you are clinging on to one point, that Lara was a better match winner, and in the process of doing this you are just evading all the rest of the indicators that are used to define batting. When Australia did play the threesome of Lee, Clark and Johnson and they were at their peak- I am sure playing them together was a more appealing prospect than playing just McGrath. Plus, I don’t think Warne was playing then.

    If you can produce some valid statistics to say that Lara was more proficient playing W&W, Warne or McGrath, Murali or Donald, then I would welcome them. The reason why I have mentioned the word “valid” here is because, you can say that Lara scored more heavily against McGrath but that would be avoiding context and reality that, Lara also had the chance to PLAY McGrath more often.

    I am not working on any myths or propaganda. This is all about reasoning and a little bit of common sense. Have you not heard commentators say things like, “XYZ just struggled there having to change his line/angle now that a left hander is on strike”? Why do you think people say Pakistan should have more left handed batsmen in their line up? What possible myth or propaganda lies here- this is just common sense. I suppose someone could explore the average total of those batting sides over a period of time that had a few left handers to those that did not have any, or just had 1 or 2. However this would take a lot of time.

  71. #71 by Konquest on July 17, 2011 - 8:11 PM

    Salman

    Afridi may or may not be older than 31, but why use his name in the same sentence as Misbah?

    What has Misbah done in international cricket to achieve that standing?

    It is embarrassing that he is now considered to be the team’s premier batsman.

  72. #72 by Konquest on July 17, 2011 - 8:17 PM

    Pawan

    Thanks. My comments may be unbiased to you, but they can be biased to others. We are all educated people here and we should all respect others’ opinions without getting personal or emotional.

    Thanks for your cooperation, you are part of this family and you are great because you keep writing no matter what happens here :D

    I personally know Javed A Khan, Sagaat and Mohammad Munir- in the same way you, Bichoo and Salman have become an inextricable part of this blog.

  73. #73 by Konquest on July 17, 2011 - 8:36 PM

    The latest on Pakistan cricket is that, Afridi gave a few interviews recently before leaving for England to play in county (he is now back in Pakistan).
    In those interviews he claimed that he does want to play for Pakistan but to him respect is the biggest priority and if the PCB can’t respect him, he won’t play. He was asked about his anti-Punjab comments and he said that, he spends most of his time in Lahore and he receives love from all kinds of people, whether in Peshawar, Lahore or Karachi. He said if he was anti Punjab then Nawaz Sharif would not support him on these recent issues.

    He was asked to comment about Tendulkar and he said, “amazing”. He was asked to say who his role model was and he said, “Prophet” and “Imran bhai”.

    Meanwhile Ijaz Butt has given 2 stupid and uncouth interviews and in one of them, he accused Afridi of losing the last 2 ODI’s in West Indies. According to reliable sources Pushto language is banned from Pakistan dressing room, this is shocking because if Ijaz Butt can speak Punjabi when addressing national media, why should players be banned from speaking Pushto? It is common knowledge that the language of the Pakistan cricket team and admin is Punjabi and I don’t know how they will stop speaking Punjabi, if they want the Pathan players to stop speaking Pushto. I think it needs to be taught in schools that Punjabi is a regional language and not the national language.

    On Indian cricket, Sehwag is expected to miss some of the England series if not all, and this is a big blow to the Indian dressing room. They are already a little worried considering that the first two matches will be played at Lords an Trent Bridge which are pro swing bowling pitches. It’s going to be a competitive series but Zaheer and Ishant need to get acclimatised to conditions quickly. I don’t know whether it was necessary to pick Sreesanth but maybe he is a good choice for these kinds of pitches.

    India struggled in the tour opener against Somerset, but will they be able to lift themselves from this?

  74. #74 by Sagaat on July 17, 2011 - 9:24 PM

    Khansahab,

    Warne couldn’t dominate India. In fact India dominated Warne.Therefore, he was an incomplete bowler (unlike Mcgrath).

    To the rest of your comment, I can only say that, each person has his own opinion. If Bichoo, Pawan, etc were to join in the debate, then this would perhaps be more meaningful. We have debated at length before and I am certain that neither of us will be able to convince the other.

    Let me clarify this: I am not doubting Tendulkar’s batting greatness. He deserves the milestones and accolades. Obviously, my point is that Lara was a better player if we pay more attention to statistics, oppositions, matchwinning knocks, etc…on the other hand Dravid, Laxman are better than Tendulkar in some aspects of batting, whereas Tendulkar is the better overall player. Along with this I suppose I am challenging the near-mythical status of Tendulkar, as I think a lot of it is unjustified and is the case just because he is from India.

  75. #75 by Konquest on July 17, 2011 - 10:19 PM

    Sagaat

    I know that in India SRT has a god-like status, and there are or have been obvious flaws with SRT’s batting which Indians may perhaps not accept (such as match winning ability or losing his wicket to new, unheard of bowlers).

    However at the same time he is something that puts India on the global map much more than Amitabh Bachan, Shahrukh Khan or Aishwarya Rai have done. He has become a part of Indian identity because of his superb batsmanship, and unmatched consistency. So to them he is much more than a player.

    When I speak for him it is solely on the basis of the way what I think good batting is all about. He dominated every great bowler, every team, in every part of the world. He broke every milestone, he even made 200. When people said he has started losing his prime, he hit that 175 vs Australia in some ODI. That happened in 2010 or 2009, I can’t remember, but it was a jaw dropping knock.

  76. #76 by Sagaat on July 18, 2011 - 2:11 AM

    Khansahab,

    He has become part of the Indian identity but that doesn’t mean others should accept that and see Tendulkar as a mythical hero.

    Think about it this way, the Americans have their founding fathers that they barely adhere to now, the English have Shakespere and the queen, and we have the poets and the founder– can’t the Indians find something better than Tendulkar, someone more important than a player who is obviously mr.milestone but also very limited in comparison to the free-flowing nature of Lara, incredible average of the don, dominating presence of Richards, etc? Don’t you think he doesn’t deviate far enough in any particular aspect of batting to justify this mythical status?

    I just discard one days when I compare players. It is questionable, but that is what the experts do. I will concede, however, that one days and 20/20 also need to be considered when comparing players. As should a double-hundred be counted as 2 100s. As should strike-rate of batsmen be weighted in test match performances, as when one batsmen dominates, it affects the morale of the whole team and significantly affects the outcome of the match. There are many things in cricket which can be looked at differently I suppose which may sound a bit more rational. Like, for instance, another myth is Shane Warne’s status. How can Shane Warne be considered such a champion player when he could not bowl well against a team that played spin well, he consistently suffered against players that play spin well, etc…?

  77. #77 by Bichoo on July 18, 2011 - 3:27 AM

    Sagaat,

    You talk so much about Test cricket while disregarding ODIs, perhaps it is because Lara has such a poor record on ODI so that it won’t help your case ;) It’s ironic because Test cricket is one form where result is not required, where as in ODIs a win or a loss is certain, therefore it can be argued that a format where a win or a loss is guaranteed then this format is very important. Lara made a selfish 400 not out as captain, but it was on the 4th test in the pitch that was like a road, WI drew that test after losing 3 tests against England. So much for his match winning abilities. How many matches has he won in fact? there is a 153 not out in Barbados against Australia that seems to have taken his reputations in this regard, perhaps just oo much. If the tail in the Chennai test against Pakistan mustered 16 runs then Tendulkar also would have had a similar story. Who cares in end? Lara is long retired, he himself admitted Tendulkar is a better batsman than him. Contrary to what you said, if Tendulkar was not an Indian batsman, then I am sure you are a lot of his detractors would have heralded him as the best batsman ever ;)

  78. #78 by Sagaat on July 18, 2011 - 4:29 AM

    Bichoo,

    Finally you have entered the debate ;)

    It is not I who disregards ODIs, it is the experts that do when comparing the players. I have alway mantained that Tendulkar is the greatest ODI batsman. If you give each ODIs and test matches equal weight, then Tendulkar is the better player between Lara and Tendulkar :)

    As far as test matches are concerned to be honest it is the lack of matchwinning innings against quality oppositions that I find surprising. Its been 20 years now and not one knock in Wisden’s list of top 100 innings, whereas Lara has 3 in the top 15 (I think). To be honest I don’t look for consistency in players, I look for deviations. I’d rather a player make 100 once in 3 matches rather than 40 in 3 consecutive matches (provided that they average around the same). I think here is where me and Khansahab fundamentally disagree. Probably that is the reason why many cricket pundits pick Tendulkar over Lara. Anyway, whoever wins between Tendulkar or Lara, neither is close to the Don. Between the first and second, there is a huge difference. And, then, there is also Sir Gary Sobers as batsman which may compare to either of Lara or Tendulkar, though admissably I haven’t researched his stats much.

  79. #79 by Pawan on July 18, 2011 - 4:56 AM

    Looks like Sagaat has forgotten someone by the name of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, someone who is not just worshipped by the Indians, but by the world – Obama, the current President of America is a self-confessed fan of Gandhiji. For the record, Indians have also worshipped Dr. Babasaheb Bhimrao Ambedkar, Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel, hundreds of thousands of great kings, which has been going on since the time when there was no independent Pakistan/Afganisthan/Sri Lanka/Bhutan/Nepal.

    My dear friend, I can assure you there has never been a dearth of heros for Indians to worship, and there never will be. I am sure, someone as well-learned as Javed Khan will agree with what I have said over here.

  80. #80 by Pawan on July 18, 2011 - 5:45 AM

    Sagaat,

    You have clearly lost this battle with Konquest. He clearly showed you the averages of SRT and BCL wherein it is quite clear SRT is winner hands down. You need to come up with solid evidence to prove your point against SRT. If you make a statement like “SRT feeding off mediocre bowlers” you should be able to back this up with solid proof.

    Statsguru clearly shows SRT’s average is 61 against Australia as compared to BCL’s average of 51. Now don’t go on rambling that there was no McGrath. Like Konquest said, it wasn’t SRT’s fault that McGrath wasn’t in the team during the series. In fact where he has scored his runs, there were much accomplished bowlers like Hughes and McDermot when SRT was a mere kid.

    Now, if you feel BCL was greater than SRT just because BCL has good record against McGrath (which itself is debatable, because you conveniently take off ODI’s from the equation where McGrath has faced SRT much more than in tests), then I really feel for you. Because you cannot take such a big decision based on only one bowler.

    Just to make one more point in favor of Konquest, if you are really fair, then you would compare BCL against Akram or some left handed great bowler. For the record, BCL has poorest record against all great left-handed bowlers, including Akram. No wonder SRT has great record against Akram, when Akram was in his prime. Also no wonder Akram considers SRT much more accomplished batsman than BCL.

    I also want to clear air regarding your ever changing complaints against SRT – You have mentioned it repeatedly that he is not a match winner, and then you also accuse him of not scoring 300′s and 400′s. Now make up your mind – what do you want him to do? Stay at the wicket, be selfish, and score 300 and 400? or become a match winner – even if that means scoring a mere 40?

    Please back your statements up with some solid proof, otherwise just accept that you “prefer” or simply “like” BCL’s style of batting (just what Munir did) without showing down SRT.

  81. #81 by Sagaat on July 18, 2011 - 6:09 AM

    Pawan,

    I have brought in those stats many times before. I didn’t only check the stats against Mcgrath, but also against W and W, Pollock and Donald., Ambrose and Walsh. All these were great bowlers. Out of all these as far as I recall SRT had a good record against only Ambrose and Walsh, with Lara outdoing him against most of the other pace bowlers in this list.

    What I would have liked to see in Tendulkar is more memorable knocks, whether they be 400s or matchwinning test match 100s in very tough conditions!

    As regards to Konquest winning the battle, it would be true if you were the referee :P

  82. #82 by Bichoo on July 18, 2011 - 11:53 AM

    Sagaat,

    You said:

    It is not I who disregards ODIs, it is the experts that do when comparing the players.

    It is the same experts who has rated Tendulkar above Lara and everyone else except may be Bradman, nearly every one of the experts. Since you listen to the experts, you should take their word that Tendulkar is the best, and not try to second guess them ;)

  83. #83 by Bichoo on July 18, 2011 - 11:58 AM

    Sagaat,

    Since you like the experts, here are some of the experts comments.

    Nasser Hussain:

    For me, he’s the greatest of all time. In my era, Brian Lara was a genius to Sachin’s machine, but while you’d pay more to watch Lara, you’d rather have Sachin batting for your life. In years to come we’ll talk about him in the same breath as Bradman.’

    David Llyod:

    I never saw Bradman play, but technically Tendulkar is the best I’ve seen. I’d find it hard to separate Lara and Tendulkar, but I’ve never seen anyone work as hard as Sachin. He’s got so much enthusiasm. A lovely fellow too, very down to earth.’

    Graham Gooch:

    Of the people I played against, Sachin is right up there, alongside Viv Richards and Barry Richards. Going back over history, he has to be near the top too. Apart from Don Bradman, who else has been better than him?’

    Michael Vaughan:

    If you sat down with a pen and paper to draw the perfect batsman, you would sketch out Tendulkar’s profile.

  84. #84 by Pawan on July 18, 2011 - 12:33 PM

    Bichoo,

    I don’t think Sagaat will *now* consider Hussain, Gooch, Vaughan and Bumble-bee as experts.
    I remember, may be a few years back, there was debate of Ponting vs. Tendulkar.
    Now it is Lara vs. Tendulkar, simply because Ponting is not in any kind of form.

  85. #85 by Sagaat on July 18, 2011 - 2:28 PM

    Bichoo,

    Experts have different opinions as regards to the Lara-Sachin comparison. They are unanimous in assessing the players’ potential using test records.

    Pawan,

    A few years ago that debate was valid as they were almost equally good players then. However, now Tendulkar is better, since for the last few years Ponting has been out of form and Tendulkar in form.

  86. #86 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 18, 2011 - 6:09 PM

    Pawan

    On Heroes, I won’t comment anything but, I would copy paste a link here and I want you and everyone else who is interested in knowing the facts may open the link and scroll down to the sub-heading BRAHMACHARIYA – SEXUALITY and read that passage:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi

    Please comment after reading that passage!

  87. #87 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 18, 2011 - 6:13 PM

    Oh my God, so many comments in just a short time, it proves that ” Everything comes in lumps” This was originally stated by the French Economist, Siméon Denis Poisson but now, even in the quantum mechanics they are saying the same phrase.

  88. #88 by Pawan on July 18, 2011 - 6:21 PM

    Given a choice, looks like, even Sagaat will not choose B C Lara in all-time great test team.
    Few days back he chose Graeme Pollock, Viv Richards over B C Lara.
    Now, how inconsistent is that?
    First he starts debating Ponting over SRT and when he finds out Ponting is no match, you switch to BCL.
    Even he would not choose BCL given a chance to pick a test great team.

    I don’t want him to chose SRT as the best test batsman
    because it is his own choice, he can even choose his muhalla player as best

    And I take Konquest’s point that he is not biased against Indian players
    But certainly he has to think over what he has said about SRT
    Just an example – selfish, mediocre? Get a life dude.
    If you are getting fun out of this – by just rankling people just to show that “you think differently”
    then seriously you should get some help dude.

  89. #89 by Sagaat on July 18, 2011 - 7:04 PM

    Pawan,

    I included Graeme Pollock in that list because he averages in the mid-60s if I am not mistaken. In fact if there was one change I’d make to my team now, it would playing Glenn Mcgrath over Wasim Akram (because Mcgrath was more effecient). But I’d play two all rounders nevertheless.

    It is not that I think different, it is just that you don’t try to think differently. Its been nailed into you, the myth of SRT, and you don’t want to look at it from the perspective of the lack of matchwinning innings, no remarkable innings, etc…you just look at the record of most runs or centuries. But apart from longevity, there is nothing else which is striking about the player.

    Konquest,

    In fact if you notice I respect Sehwag a lot, too. This phenomenon was something I encountered a few years ago– that a lot of Indian friends simply berated other players in the team in order to claim that Tendulkar alone does it for India (that is, win matches or makes any impact). When I delved deeper, I figured it was exactly the other way around. In fact India had a great batting team. And, it were other players who were winning more matches than Tendulkar. Unfortunately, for the sake of aggrandizing Tendulkar’s reputation, many Indians will belittle Dravid’s contribution to Indian cricket, or Laxman’s, or Sehwag’s, etc…and my point is, these are the guys who have won the most important test matches, not Tendulkar. At the same time I realize that many Indians look at cricket from a solely one day perspective. Tendulkar is, hands down, the better one day player. Hence, that can skew their view as regards to test cricket . However, there is the myth that builds up afterwards and, to be fair, Tendulkar doesn’t have the knocks like Lara to qualify him as the great player he has been made out to be in test cricket.

  90. #90 by Konquest on July 18, 2011 - 8:02 PM

    Sagaat

    Dravid, Laxman and Sehwag- they are all great players.

    Lara was a great player too, the best along with Ponting and SRT.

    But, in my opinion SRT beats all of them for many reasons.

    Kallis is boring and mechanical, he scores a lot of runs but he doesn’t have the skill of SRT. Pieterson, G Smith, Clarke, Gambhir, these guys are a notch below.

    I like Ponting’s batting more than Lara’s.

  91. #91 by Konquest on July 18, 2011 - 8:32 PM

    Pawan

    Are you using the initials “BC” Lara for a particular reason :D

    That “BC” Lara……

  92. #92 by tom on July 18, 2011 - 9:07 PM

    interesting discussion
    Sir bradman said that tendulkar reminded him of himself when he watched him batting. that is perhaps the biggest evidence in favor of tendulkar. however , there are qualities of batsmen which make them special. like viv richards ,sehwag destroying the opposition with their fearless batting which even has a demoralising effect in test cricket, ability of players to play long innings like hanif, dravid, lara.
    the theory of left handers having an advantage over right handers is flawed. its just like claiming that left arm spinners are better than right arm spinners. but the top two wicket takers are right arm spinners.
    well thats the beauty of cricket. there is always scope for constructive argument.

  93. #93 by Bichoo on July 19, 2011 - 3:31 AM

    Javed Khan,

    I read the wikipedia link you provided, topic is about a complex man like Gandhi who is far more than any one of us could fathom, what can be commented?

    Here is one article I found on WSJ that might interest you.

    Why my father hated India:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304911104576445862242908294.html?mod=WSJ_article_onespot

  94. #94 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 19, 2011 - 2:05 PM

    Bichoo

    That article on Taseer by his son, I have read it b4 and like his son there are many who NOW say what his son Aatish is saying that he is half Indian and blah, blah for eg., even Altaf Hussain of MQM went to India and said that the partition was a big mistake.

    The truth is beyond your comprehension because, you don’t know the lifestyle of these people and the amount of money they have accomplished in Pakistan by hook or by crook and mostly through illegal means (even the top politicians of today are doing the same thing) and when they got money, power and everything else, they wanted people to worship them, on the other hand there were people who really hated them and the end result of Salman Taseer is a proof – I am totally against the way he was brutally murdered, because no individual under any circumstances in the name of religion has the right to take a life of the other person. –

    As regards the political and economical turn around in India in the 1990′s and a reversal trend in Pakistan is true and I agree with that, Actually the reversal did not start from 1990′s but from the time ZA Bhutto came into power that is 1970′s. The rest of the politicians and dictators did their job in ruining the country………… that is another debate and I do not want to indulge in it. And, even this one on Taseers. My point of reference was Gandhi and i.e., because Pawan mentioned Gandhi’s name among the people who are worshiped in India and he even mentioned my name in that comment enticing me to comment on that.

    I thought a simple URL link would do the job because, it is such a sensitive subject that people may get upset and angry and I did not want to copy paste it here because we are all friends and discuss cricket in the purest form (sometimes with bias) and by pinpointing those issues that are in that passage on BRAHMACHARIYA , SEXUALITY, I may have created a more heated debate.

    Why are you calling Gandhi a Complex Man? A whole lot of people call him a simple man. And, why can’t you comment on what he did? Even his stenographer Parasuram, resigned when he saw Gandhi sleeping naked with Manu his niece. This was not just an isolated case, there were other nieces like, Sushila, Nayar, Abha. And, Nirmal Kumar Bose, leading anthropologist and a close associate of Gandhi, parted company with him in April 1947 and he said, “there was no immorality on part of Gandhi.”

    Like Supriya Roy Chaudhary one of the leading Indian journalists of today who writes for the local Daily The Hindu, commented on Gandhi on another issue, she wrote that the historians of today and the school text boards have concealed the life of real Gandhi and portrayed him as an apostle and they have tried to shove the dirt under the carpet and at the same time they are mudslinging on Jinnah. Media’s propaganda is very great in today’s world but, people still have access to reality and they try to convey it to the masses who are not ready to accept. If they do, then it will be like a paradigm shift i.e., knowingly and conscientiously moving away from one belief system to another belief system and by belief system I am not talking about the religious belief system but, our own belief system through which we judge people, hate them or love them.

    Be it politics or cricket, we do the same when we chose a certain people or a person as our hero(es) and that is how we perceive them. A good sensible deliberation is needed to understand the truth. Some people change their opinions after seeing the whole picture, but some don’t want to because, they think that it is a matter of their EGO and they think people might taunt at them if they change their opinion. I did, for e.g., when I was very young, I blindly followed Z A Bhutto and was always very excited to talk about him. But, within years as my perception changed and as Bhutto’s policies changed and the way he was heading towards destruction, I started disliking him, in fact for what he did to Bangladesh and to the economy of Pakistan by nationalizing the banks and big industries, I hate him for that and I will never forgive him for that.

  95. #95 by Bichoo on July 19, 2011 - 4:58 PM

    Javed Khan,

    You ask me why I called Gandhi a complex man. Is Gandhi a simple man? In my view, you and I are simple men, men who eat, sleep, may be have children, go to some work, earn a living, live somewhere, and die finally. Someone like Gandhi who can inspire millions of people, and make them followers, dedicate his life for uplifting others, while no seeking power for himself, is he a simple man? he has to have a complex mind.

    People have spent their entire lives learning about Gandhi, I am not a scholar and I am not qualified to comment on Gandhi. Perhaps you were thinking that the part you highlighted about him sleeping naked with young women will make me shocked and cringe. But I am neither surprise, shocked, or cringing, and I read it very impassively. It may be hard for you to believe, because we all want to think our assessment of other people are correct. But I did, because a person like that is not a ordinary mortal like you and I. I do not have the hubris to believe that I can understand and then make comments on it

    Let me point to the same Wikipedia entry on Prophet Muhammad. Now I know for muslims, everything about the Prophet that a non-believer says could be sacrilege, but since you opened the can of worms and asking me to comment on Gandhi, I will point to a part and ask you to comment. But, I myself again do not have the arrogance to comment on someone who has inspired billions and created a large religion. All I can say is that I am a simple human being not scholar enough to judge people who are far bigger than me.

    See link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad

    Read the highlighted part from the article:

    Traditional sources dictate that Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad, but the marriage was not consummated until she was nine or ten years old. While majority of traditional sources indicate Aisha was 9 (and therefore a virgin) at the time of marriage, a small number of more recent writers have variously estimated her age at 15 to 24.

    Now, most of us ordinary human beings would cringe in shock and shame at the part about consuming marriage with a 9 year old child. But are we that large enough to comment on this?

    Let me leave with what Gandhi himself said about Prophet Muhammad:

    “I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind…. I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life”.

  96. #96 by Sagaat on July 19, 2011 - 5:55 PM

    Tom,

    That is a good point you make. Perhaps another reason what tips the balance in favor of Tendulkar is that he is a very humble person. Nevertheless everyone has his perspective of seeing things. If we think of brilliance, we’d rather associate it with Lara. If we look for consistency, perfection in technique, etc we look forward to Tendulkar. I think Lara was the more aesthetically pleasing player, a greater matchwinner, etc and for those reasons I think he was a better player thanTendulkar.

  97. #97 by Pawan on July 19, 2011 - 6:38 PM

    Great going guys – Bichoo and JAK!

    JAK – It’s pretty hard to comment on “sexuality” of Gandhi. These days people print/write any damn thing that sells. Who is right and who is wrong? For me personally, I would like to look at the glass as half full, rather than half empty and in the case of Gandhi – its 99% full, rather than that 1% which is uncertain. I would have liked if you would have commented on Gandhi in general and then may be raised the question of sexuality, rather than focusing on his controversies. There are great things, not to forget, the non-violence movement, which have been initiated by M K Gandhi. Along with Jinnah, who was a very learned lawyer from Bombay, I respect these people. Even the leader of opposition Advani has spoken nothing but good about Jinnah.

    I agree with Bichoo on us being mere mortals and hence also susceptible to such news, be it about Gandhi or The Prophet.

    As like Gandhi, I have immense respect for The Prophet. My father, after extensive study on Prophet, was so impressed by Prophet and his work, that at one point of time, he was contemplating naming his son after Muhammed. And I am sure there must be many like my father.

    Finally I would like to say that whatever good work Gandhi has done far outweigh whatever his misdoings (if at all there are any truly speaking).

  98. #98 by Pawan on July 19, 2011 - 6:54 PM

    Sagaat

    When you use the term “match winner”, do you restrict yourself to just test matches or do you also consider ODIs?

    I don’t have much time to go into detail analysis and prove that SRT is a great match winner in tests.

    But I know of such a link where his “match winning” ability in ODIs has been shown. Here it is:

    It would be hard for someone to believe that a person who has played so many test matches as well as ODIs can be a great/even greatest ODI batsman and a match winner, but plays ONLY for records in test matches.

    Some of his latest match-winning and exceptional innings that come to my mind are

    - test match in Chennai against England after 26/11 blasts in Mumbai which he dedicated to all the victims. Even English players have said they saw something special and he was like a man possessed.

    - the last tour of South-Africa. If you do have any doubts about what Konquest has said about SRT handling fast bowling, do watch his innings against Dale Steyn. He scored 4 centuries in this tour and probably handled Steyn where no one – Dravid, Laxman, could. Steyn has gone on record to say the he has never seen someone bat like him the way he batted against him.

    Donald, Warne, Pollock, Akram have all repeatedly confessed that SRT has handled them the best. It is not just about technique, but also the mindset and the mind games played out there. Only great bowler was acknowledges Lara before SRT is McGrath.

    Lara was a great great batsman and like you said probably the most stylish, but thats where it ends to me. To me, he was more of a moody batsman. When he was in the mood, he was unsurmountable.

    I have also heard this myth that SRT buckles down under pressure. To me pressure is his middle name. Imagine batting for so many years, 20 plus now, under the pressure of billion expectations! And performing, almost every time you go out to bat. If that is not batting under pressure, then I don’t know what is.

  99. #99 by Pawan on July 19, 2011 - 6:56 PM

    Konquest,

    The BC was a good catch! Haha
    But no, I use it ainvey, JLT

  100. #100 by Sagaat on July 19, 2011 - 7:11 PM

    Pawan,

    In one days Tendulkar has been a great matchwinner. I have said many times that in one days there is no-one close to him. There are guys like Bevan who averaged a lot higher, but they were not matchwinners like Tendulkar. As regards to what you are pointing about Sachin’s knocks in tests, they are good knocks, but not sheer brilliance. For instance, that 153 not out by Lara (if you see the standard of bowling, the pitch conditions, the match situations) is a huge deviation from the average good knock. Then there is Laxman’s 280-odd against Australia, along with Dravid, that turned the series against that champion Australian team. Tendulkar has nothing at that calibre in test matches. None of his knocks are rated in the top 100 batting performances of all time.

  101. #101 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 19, 2011 - 7:23 PM

    Bichoo

    You are not the first one to bring up the name of Prophet Muhammed while comparing Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, it happened many, many times that either the Hindus or, the goras or, the blessed ones have tried to compare the Prophet with Gandhi or someone else. There was a Gora called Cecil King he did that and that resulted in a riot between Hindus and Muslims in Calcutta then. Cecil King is like a purblind nocturnal mouse that sees not the sunlight and blames the sun.

    You said, Gandhi inspired millions and made them followers. The point is, first of all Gandhi did not emerge from the masses, he never ever was any masses, he was in the UK, SA and again in the UK and he was spotted by Motilal Nehru, Wallabhai Patel and others and targeted him as a perfect candidate for their mission to fight against the British Raj. There was already a movement against it, First by the Muslims of Bengal because, they suffered the biggest financial losses as well as losses in lives during the 1906 partition of Bengal which was Lord Curzon’s brilliant idea and for 5 years the Bengali Hindus continued their fight against the partition which was reunited in 19011. After that the Bengali Muslims decided to fight against the British Raj and also for an independent Muslim state because, they did not want to live with the Hindus in united India after what they did to them between 1906-11. And, it was they who created the All India Muslim League in 1906.

    Then there was Khilafat movement too starting from 1919-24 it was initially to save Ottoman Empire in Turkey from the British but, they expanded it and asked the British to quit India. Other than the Bengali Muslims the Muslims in India stood united under the umbrella of All India Congress. But, that did not last long and they joined All India Muslim League. IT was not just because of political decisions but, it was because of the hypocrisy and diplomacy of Walabhai Patel, Motilal and Jawaharlal Nehru who were using Gandhi like a pawn in their big game of politics. Gandhi was a perfect person for them to use.

    If Patels and Nehrus were really his followers then why did they not wear like Gandhi, talked like Gandhi, ate like Gandhi and behaved like Gandhi? The followers always follow their leader, isn’t it? They never did, Jawaharlal remained suited booted to keep his affairs alive with Lady Mountbatten. Only after partition that he started wearing white sherwani and that cap.

    What lead the Indian Muslims decide to quit All India Congress and join the AIl India Muslim League?

    There was an All India Congress Convention in progress in Bombay and it was a Friday and during the lunch break, the Muslim leaders asked for a 30 minute extra break for saying Jumma prayers and it was denied by the NEhrus and the Patels saying, “India is a Secular State where religion comes after the affairs of the country.” They weren’t allowed to go.

    Three months later another convention was planned in Allahabad and everything was set and the work was in progress like printing of pamphlets, distribution and what not……….. just a couple of weeks before the date they realized that it is a SATURDAY then, these very people who denied the Muslims a 30 minute break for prayers, canceled the convention by saying on Saturday Gandhiji keeps his barat (fasting) and it is his Prathna Day, (prayer day). Hence, this convention has to be some other day! It was decided just like that. That led the Muslim Leaders think that this is not going to work out in the long run especially since the Muslims are only a 30% minority.

    Gandhi was nominated twice for Nobel Peace Prize but, he could not get one. Now, one may call him Mahatma or whatever but, at that time the committee that chooses the candidate decided not to give him that prize because, in the words professor Jacob Worm-Müller, wrote a report on Gandhi and he was very critical. He wrote, I fully understand the general admiration for Gandhi as a person: “He is, undoubtedly, a good, noble and ascetic person – a prominent man who is deservedly honoured and loved by the masses of India.” On the other hand, when considering Gandhi as a political leader, the Norwegian professor’s description was less favourable. There are, he wrote, “sharp turns in his policies, which can hardly be satisfactorily explained by his followers. He is a freedom fighter and a dictator, an idealist and a nationalist. He is frequently a Christ, but then, suddenly, an ordinary politician.”

    We can debate on this as long as you wish but, it is hard for me to change your views and the same applies for you to change my views. I have read a lot of history from books and learned from my father and grandfathers and other elders, those who were alive during those days and witnessed the incidents, so my belief is much stronger because, I have heard it from them and not just read it on the Wikipedia.

  102. #102 by Pawan on July 19, 2011 - 8:05 PM

    Javed Khan,

    About Gandhi not receiving Nobel Peace Prize
    this is what Geir Lundestad, Secretary of Norwegian Nobel Committee in 2006 said,

    “The greatest omission in our 106 year history is undoubtedly that
    Mahatma Gandhi never received the Nobel Peace prize.
    Gandhi could do without the Nobel Peace prize,
    Whether Nobel committee can do without Gandhi is the question”

    Few years back Obama, who was only just elected as President of USA
    received Nobel Peace Prize. Compare that to Gandhi’s struggles.
    It was a joke.

  103. #103 by Pawan on July 19, 2011 - 8:24 PM

    Javed,

    I have had this debate with my father for years – about Gandhi as a person and his role in partition.
    We do have contrasting views on Gandhi.

    I agree that Gandhi once said that there will be partition only after he was dead.
    That was wrong on his front to say so.
    Because people had so much faith in him.

    Anyways, he was used by the politicians of India which is undisputedly true.
    I feel for Gandhi as a person and his values of non-violence and honesty.
    To me, he was a saint and should have NEVER come into politics.

    Also how do you know that because you have had conversations with several people
    including your elders and read many books
    makes your belief stronger than anyone?

    You can and should have your own views
    Bichoo will have his own
    I will have my own.

    And lets leave the question of whose belief is stronger, unanswered.
    Will we?

  104. #104 by Pawan on July 19, 2011 - 8:30 PM

    Sagaat,

    Have you seen SRT’s 103 Not Out against England in Chennai on a last day pitch?
    The match was held days after the Mumbai terror attack 26/11
    Not only was the last day a terrible batting wicket.
    But the trauma this Mumbai-lad must be going through
    after the terror attacks is just unbelievable.

    Despite that.. he came out to bat and won that match.
    He didn’t want to leave the business unfinished
    like he had done with his 136 against Pakistan

    Point is, how can you say SRT doesn’t have any match-winning innings?
    The innings that I pointed out is one of the many many he has played

  105. #105 by tom on July 19, 2011 - 9:16 PM

    In the debate Lara vs tendulkar, we must consider one aspect; Lara played with a deteriorating team. His team was losing consistently and was batterede by the opposition. it is very easy for a batsman to lose focus when his team is consistently losing. On the other hand, the indians were not ruling world cricket but their position was still much better than West Indies from mid 90′s till now. Tendulkar had that advantage. Still, tendulkar will be considered better than Lara due to tons of runs he scored, his average and his assessment by contemporary cricketers.

    The issue is not always about the best batsman, best bowler but ultimately its about the best cricketer. Ultimately, MS Dhoni will overshadow Tendulkar in Indian cricket. As tendulkar himself confessed that dhoni is the best captain hes played under. Tendulkar’s performance was never special as a captain which is the case with many talented cricketers. Lara was better as a batsman captain than Tendulkar. Now if one likes lara, he will compare the two from that perspective and if one likes Tendulkar, he’ll look at it from a batsman’s perspective.

    In the final analysis, Tendulkar ends up with more votes than Lara in the category of Batsmen.

  106. #106 by Sagaat on July 19, 2011 - 9:18 PM

    Pawan,

    I agree with you. Obama receiving the nobel peace prize was a joke.

    On SRT I remember that innings. Basically, Sehwag won that match for India. Anyone should agree with that, the ease with which India won that match.

  107. #107 by Sagaat on July 19, 2011 - 9:21 PM

    Tom,

    There is no final analysis :D One is retired, one is playing– and the votes are always skewed in favor of the one who is playing. When both were playing, commentators favored Lara.

  108. #108 by Sagaat on July 19, 2011 - 9:33 PM

    I guess we have debated quite a bit and I think now I am a bit more convinced that Tendulkar is equal to Lara.If we look at one days, then Tendulkar has no equal. In any case this is just to end the debate ;)

  109. #109 by Bichoo on July 19, 2011 - 11:18 PM

    Javed Khan,

    COMPARISON What comparison?

    You wrote:
    You are not the first one to bring up the name of Prophet Muhammed while comparing Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

    Comparison has to be between equals. Gandhi is a giant when compared to the likes to us ordinary people, but he is only a mortal in relation to Prophet Mohammad. If I quote Jesus in relation to the Prophet, then that can be called comparison.

    What I have done is simply draw parallels between one aspect of their lives as it is written in the source of your choice.

    You did not answer my question directly, instead diverted it by trying to brush aside it using a straw man, i.e, by stating I am not the first one to compare you are diluting my argument with a back handed swipe ;) When in first place I did not even say Gandhi is my hero.

    It was your choice to call on the sexuality of a historical figure, remember, so I simply pointed out who are we to question a greater human being than us, and drew a parallel with the things written about the Prophet.

    I don’t actually think anything wrong with Gandhi experimenting with his sexuality, in fact, I admire him for it, my only complaint would be that he was trying to overcome it, rather my view of it is very French like :) I would have appreciated if Gandhi did what Benjamin Franklin did during his stay in France. :)

    Coming back to my point, there are certain aspects of lives of historical figures that we may find strange, but it is hubris on our part if we can think we can be judges

    I could have used another example, of Mother Mary, or Virgin Mary as she is called, who conceived a child out of wedlock, considered a huge sin in most societies even today. But she is worshiped by Christians all over the world, and they call it divine birth. But then you being a Muslim, it won’t have the intended impact to make you think.

    Therefore I had to call upon a part of Prophet’s life where he married an 9 year old. Mind you, I am not disrespecting the Prophet in anyway, or making any sort of preconceived notions about it. I am simply stating I am not large enough to even consider I can question a hugely influential figure.

    I won’t say this again, because it may offend my other Muslim friends here, but I am hopeful everyone here are little bit more liberal and can understand the ZERO malice in my tone

    I wasn’t offended about MF Hussain drawing Hindu Goddesses naked. But of course I understand Islamic tradition is different. What I am saying is that in Hindu tradition it is not unusual to paint Goddesses as naked and doing sexual positions. It is on the temple sculptures from ages ago, we even have a sage who wrote an authoritative text on sexuality, called Kamasutra. Without practicing it, it would have been impossible to write all that. So, in my view Hindus in general were not very averse to experimenting their sexuality, but somewhere along the lines they became conservative. Could this have been the Islamic influence from the arrival of Islam in the sub-continent?

  110. #110 by Bichoo on July 20, 2011 - 1:00 AM

    Javed Khan,

    I want you to remove my previous two posts, #96 and #110, as well as this post, after you have read them. There is nothing productive coming out of it. Certain words are better not spoken.

  111. #111 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 1:01 AM

    I’ll join the debate over Gandhi. I think it is very peculiar that someone would do that, nor would I think of it as “experimenting with sexuality”. It is rather practicing abstinence and conquering desire. I’ll write below of what I make of Gandhi’s character as far as this is concerned.

    Now I don’t believe in the notion that some personalities are essentially different to the extent that they would use very unorthodox means naturally. It is rather more the case, as in the case with that artist, that they act different to draw attention and act eccentric. I do believe that certain natural eccentricities can exist in character of creative personalities; however, they are more inwards than outwards. Indeed a lot of creative person’s view the world differently because of inherent biological differences in their brains (they have a lower latent inhibition for instance), yet practicing sexuality in a certain way, something psychological is a matter of choice. In other words it is the same difference as that between a concept and its conception; the biological being the concept and the psychological being its conception. And, conceptions can be flawed, but they are realizations of what is fixed and quite natural.

    Now coming back to the sensitive issue of Gandhi, I think he realized that he was reverred akin to a saint in India. Hence, what he was indulging in wasn’t necessarily asking people to experiment with sexuality (which Bichoo has somehow conceived) or an invitation to the eccentric; rather, much the opposite, it was simply to practice abstinence in order to conquer desire. Now why would he go so far himself in order to conquer lust? Its simply because he realizes that he is a saintly figure, an example for others to follow, so he goes as far as he can to clean his character as possible. In other words it is not an invitation for others to go as far as Gandhi in conquering desire, but it is to make sure that he cleans his character to the extent that he can be a solid example for others. The point being that what Gandhi was encouraging was abstinence amongst people rather than inviting them to explore sexuality.

    Now the Islamic view (which newguy has reffered to again indirectly) is more open to sexuality than that of Gandhi’s. Btw, I am not a saint or an authority on Islam, this is just my interpretation. Islam doesn’t encourage abstinence, but what it encourages is a proper way of engaging in sex. It doesn’t imply that you forgo pleasure, but to cultivate it in a way (through marriage) that is respectful and not excessive. The concept of marriage encourages rights of women as they are given rights to property by being a party to such an agreement. Marriage is basically a legal contract between two parties, a proper way of doing things. There were also temporary marriages that were practiced during the prophet’s lifetime (perhaps to properly channel people’s urges for shorter-term relationships). Again the point is that, there is a system, a proper way of going about things rather than making arbitrary choices at whims. It is about being controlling the self, not abstaining from pleasure.

  112. #112 by Pawan on July 20, 2011 - 3:37 AM

    Sagaat

    For the record, Hinduism doesn’t encourage abstinence from sex.
    I doubt if Gandhi also professed celibacy!
    Yaar tum baat ko kaha se kaha le ja rahey ho?

  113. #113 by Pawan on July 20, 2011 - 3:39 AM

    Bichoo

    Most of what we talk over here is rather perceived as unproductive.
    So I wouldn’t worry so much about these posts
    They are just your thoughts, plain and simple

  114. #114 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 3:54 AM

    Pawan,

    Yaar I am not implying abstinence is a bad thing. I am personally neutral to it. However, I think Gandhi encouraged abstinence (if you read that wikipedia link). Within that context, I don’t think Gandhi was experimenting with sex but rather practicing abstinence. It was about imposing control on the self, to control desire. I think of it that way. This doesn’t imply that I am construing it in a bad way, if Gandhi was able to abstain from sexual desire, all good be upon him.

  115. #115 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 4:00 AM

    Pawan,

    From the wikipedia link,

    “Within a year of his chastity vow, Gandhi’s newspaper, the Indian Opinion, wrote “It is the duty of every thoughtful Indian not to marry. In case he is helpless in regard to marriage, he should abstain from sexual intercourse with his wife”. Gandhi also conducted sexual experiments in his ashrams. In these ashrams, boys and girls bathed together, slept in the same beds, but were punished for any sexual talk. Men and women were segregated. Gandhi also advised that husbands should not be alone with their wives, and, when they felt sexual desire, should take a cold bath.[87]“

  116. #116 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 20, 2011 - 4:04 AM

    Bichoo

    When I mentioned that you are not the first person to do that comparison, either in part or in whole, actually I was expecting a response something like this because, a lot of people have talked about Prophet Muhammad when the subject of Gandhi was raised. And, they even brought up the age of Hz. Ayesha and there have never been an agreement between the two sides. The Muslim notion was and, it still is that she was physically matured to get married and mentally she was far more ahead than women who were older than her age. In most cases, even now girls can bear children at the age of 8-9 years old.

    I am repeating the point that the most important aspect in Hz. Ayesha’s case was she was not only physically matured but, mentally she was way above most women older than her age and it is a known documented fact. Before, I get into the detail of her age, it is important to look at this so-called myth about age. Take a look at the ages of various Prophets and they are not only accepted by Muslims, but even among Christians and Jews they also accept the longevity of their ages.

    http://classicalislam.org/assets/BGimgs/prophet.jpg

    If you have opened the link, you may seen that in some cases the ages mentioned under their names of the prophets for example, Nuh Alai Salaam or Prophet Noah lived for 1050 years, Prophet Ibrahim lived for 150 years, his grandson Hz. Ayoub also a prophet lived for 140 years, Prophet Dawood lived for 100 years are way behind comprehension especially that of Noah. The point is not about young age or old age but, how people among all religions have accepted their age is the important thing . Only now, those who are Atheists and don’t believe in any religion, they believe in science, if science can prove then they accept it. Well that is their view and I am not here to change anyone’s views. I am simply putting forward my point of view also, I am clarifying the doubts whether you agree with me or not is another matter. Like, I have said, I am not here to change people’s views.

    What they tend to forget is even in today’s world there are many who live for more than 100 years. It is about Noah’s age i.e., 1050 years people start doubting. In Quran there is a verse called Surah Al Kahaf or the Cave where some people slept for more than 300 years and when they woke up they said, they slept just a while ago. It was proved from their clothes, the coins that they had in their pockets that they belong to the era of 300 years ago.

    Therefore, the age of Hz. Ayesha is also a myth for those who want to show disrespect to Prophet Muhammad and they make fun about his wives (I am not saying you did, in fact you are very nice and you have put forward your point of view which is fair) but, if you read Quran and its detailed explanation “the Tafseer” then you will know why he married 13 wives and had 4 wives at a time and why he married Hz. Ayesha who was so young? I cannot explain this in detail here, because this is not the forum and the place to go into details. All I can say is, there is a message not only in The Book of Allah that was revealed upon him or, the messages that he conveyed to the people from time to time which we call, Al-Hadith or the Sayings of the Prophet and his actions are known as Sunnah has a message. Every action that he did had a purpose i.e., to convey to his Ummah or the people so, that they can distinguish between the right and the wrong.

    As regards Virgin Mary, ALL Muslims believe in her giving birth to Prophet Essa or Jesus and ALL Muslims believe in Moosa or Moses. The only difference is Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God whereas we believe Jesus was a Prophet like, Moses was a Prophet.

    However, in my previous comment, although in my mind I had the point that a comparison should be between oranges and oranges and not apples to oranges but, I missed it out, so I would like to say that if you want to compare Gandhi, then compare him with Jinnah. There are people among Muslims who show disrespect towards Jinnah and they are not aware of the truth but, they simply blab out and spread rumours for e.g., they say he used to drink alcohol and eat pork and all his clothes were dry-cleaned in London and Paris.

    There are many people who consume alcohol and eat pork, there is no proof of him eating pork but, it has only been added to the list because reportedly he used to drink alcohol. As regards his clothes getting dry-cleaned in London and Paris is total bull-shit. Because, the concept of dry-cleaning was NOT there in those days. Also, there was no air service, people used to travel by steamers and ships and that took months to reach London and Paris. So, there is no way that this statement is correct. In any case like all the leaders, he too discarded his 3 piece suits and tie and started wearing Sherwani and Shalwar and Jinnah Cap later in his life. It is also reported that he stopped drinking alcohol a few years before he died.

    Bichoo and Pawan

    No one is getting offended here, we are merely discussing the issues within limits without mudslinging on each others religion or personalities. And, Pawan if you think it is unproductive then why in the first instance you raised Gandhi’s name and asked me to comment on that? Take it easy man no one is getting upset here, definitely not me.

    Sagaat

    One thing that you are forgetting is, in Islam it is strictly prohibited for a father to sleep with his own daughter when she is 4-5 years old because, a man can touch her in his sleep and that could even result in incest. So, there is a very strict command that prohibits the act of sleeping together except in case of a husband and wife.

  117. #117 by Pawan on July 20, 2011 - 4:11 AM

    Sagaat

    I think sexuality or the lack of it are very personal choices that a person makes
    About religions, I don’t think any religion will encourage celibacy
    Nuns, for example, are celibate, but does that mean they encourage Christians too?
    After all, sex and human reproduction is the only way a race, a religion can survive.

    About Gandhi, it’s difficult to conjecture what he professed about sexuality
    I am not entirely convinced he encouraged abstinence to the masses
    It was his own personal choice
    To me, we respect certain men, for certain qualities they have
    You might not appreciate Lara’s cooking
    But you appreciate his stylish batting

    Frankly, I don’t care about sexuality of Gandhi
    What I appreciate most about Gandhi is his self-awareness
    If you understand the meaning of self-awareness, it is a big thing
    If you get a chance you must read Gandhi’s book
    “My experiments with Truth” Its a treatise

  118. #118 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 4:14 AM

    Javed Khan,

    I am not endorsing or condemning Gandhi. I think he was in good spirit trying to overcome desire and lust altogether. In his view without lust any attachment would be pure love. I am just stating the way he actually thought and claryfing Bichoo’s faulty connotation and interpretation. Whether that was the correct way, who knows and who am I to say…but I meant to say that I am not doubting his intentions here. Being neutral to this, and besides this, Gandhi comes across as a great human being, so there is no reason to doubt his intentions.

  119. #119 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 4:18 AM

    Pawan,

    I am not claiming what Hinduism says. As regards to Hinduism, I simply don’t know. From what I saw at the wiki link, celibacy is what Gandhi suggests. Maybe his point is that, reproduce, but without lust…..abstaining from sex means to conquer desire, so reproduce without lustful desire would be all right…in any case I am not sure about this and don’t care.

  120. #120 by Pawan on July 20, 2011 - 4:23 AM

    Javed

    I too believe we are engaging in a healthy discussion
    But not necessarily something I or you is going to talk about it in tomorrow’s client meetings
    I was only encouraging Bichoo to express his views @ legslip without any hesitation

  121. #121 by Pawan on July 20, 2011 - 4:24 AM

    Sagaat – ditto, I also don’t care what Gandhi meant to say about sexuality
    I have my own views and am very comfortable with them

    However, there are certain things in Gandhi which I personally appreciate

  122. #122 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 4:28 AM

    Bichoo,

    Absolutely. There would be a lot to appreciate about Gandhi though admissably I don’t know a lot…but without doubt he comes across as a very thoughtful person. I respect him because many Indians respect him as an idol (in terms of morality).

  123. #123 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 4:52 AM

    My apologies– in comment 123 I was referring to Pawan.

  124. #124 by tom on July 20, 2011 - 10:56 AM

    Sagaat

    with reference to your comment 108, I dont recall any commentator supporting Lara over Tendulakr. Iam an avid cricket watcher and I dont recall any expert claiming lara to be a better player than Tendulkar when both were playing. if you claim this, please quote experts who explicitly said that Lara is better than tendulkar.
    secondly, when we compare two players, it doesnt make a difference whether one is playing or not. If one were to claim that Sarwan is better than Viv richards because viv is retired then that is crap; followers of the game pretty well understand that where viv stands and what is the stature of sarwan.Sarwan wont get votes due to absence of Viv. Likewise, Pietersen would always be considered better than Ganguly. Ganguly cant be defended on the premise that he’s retired and pietersen is playing.

  125. #125 by Bichoo on July 20, 2011 - 12:20 PM

    Javed Khan,

    See when I bought up the Prophet, you found a justification, baked up with documentation that provides support, this is human nature. Whenever we are asked for explaining findings that defy logic, we come up with justifications if we support it, at the same time we find fault if we do not support it. You justified mental and physical growth of a 9 year old, which I won’t question, because as I said I do not wish to form an opinion and question those that were far greater, when I myself haven’t conquered so many things. Similarly, my point was that Gandhi was attempting to control his desires and these experiments are part of that, we are not to condemn and judge a person who wanted to give up so many things for the uplifting of others. You obviously feel different, I won’t because first I have to do something at least as good as they have done before starting to question some parts of their lives.

    With regards to Gandhi, I don’t even think much about what he did for the freedom movement or his role in nation building, personally I believe there are many flaws there, but there is one things everyone can take from Gandhi and admire him for, that is his humanitarian values. I think even you can agree that Gandhi was a great humanitarian and he genuinely wished for the uplifting of the downtrodden and he wished everyone to live in peace. This one quality is what I find admirable in him.

    Moving on … Sagaat made some assumptions about my comment and even called it faulty .. LOL. Sagaat, I am not sure how you assumed what I meant about Gandhi when I did not even elaborate on my thinking, yaar stop trying to get into other peoples head, it’s a poor way to go about. I am thinking just about similar ways to what you thought about Gandhi, that he was attempting to become more closer to God by controlling his desires, more saintly is the word you used. There is a lot of documented evidence that he was influenced by the work of Jesus of Nazareth, and he possibly wanted to experiment with his life to see how closer he can get, he possibly knew he cannot undertake the kind of sacrifices with life that Jesus took, but who knows, I think Gandhi was even willing to take on huge physical pains if he needed to. He clearly was influenced by the work of Jesus and it is possible he wanted to be as close as possible himself, but he also knew he was weaker in this aspect, but he tried with his life.

    As for Gandhi’s political life, I personally prefer General George Washington, my hero’s like to stand up and fight and win over the opposition by crushing them, we can always be nicer to them after defeating them by crushing them. So my request to you and Javed Khan and others are that do not assume you know me and what I think.

  126. #126 by Pawan on July 20, 2011 - 2:07 PM

    A good read from Angus Fraser. He wrote an article on Tendulkar yesterday in The Independent newspaper, as if he was reading this blog.

    Rarely does a walk around Lord’s Cricket Ground result in you not bumping into a high profile or influential figure in the game, and last Monday was no exception. After dropping a letter off at the England and Wales Cricket Board offices, I heard the familiar sound of leather on willow and inquisitively wandered over to the Nursery Ground to see what was going on. My arrival at the practice area was greeted by the unmistakable sight of Sachin Tendulkar batting in the nets.

    Jock, the MCC Young Cricketers’ assistant coach, and Nayan Doshi, the former Surrey left-arm spinner, were throwing to and bowling at Tendulkar. I asked a sweaty-looking Jock how long he’d been throwing balls at Tendulkar. “An hour,” he wearily said. “How long does he normally bat for?” I inquired. “Oh, another hour or so,” said Jock, “I’m only loosening up.”

    The encounter told you everything you needed to know about Tendulkar, and why he remains cricket’s greatest modern player. Here, after 22 years of international cricket, 730 international appearances, 32,803 international runs and 99 international hundreds was a man still working harder and more diligently at his game than most, if not all, of the young pretenders posturing to take his throne. This was not a man resting on his laurels, a man who believed he had cracked the game. This was a man who knows that getting to and remaining at the top is only achieved through hard work and by paying attention to detail.

    Tendulkar scored the first of his 99 international hundreds against England at Old Trafford in 1990. I played in the Test. In fact I was the bowler he nonchalantly eased through mid-off to reach three figures. It may seem something of a major oversight now, but I do not remember Tendulkar occupying a huge amount of our time at team meetings during that series. Yes, we were aware that we were playing against a highly-rated 17-year-old who looked pretty tasty. But at the time it was the genius of Mohammad Azharuddin who was occupying the focus of England’s bowlers. Azharuddin had struck a brilliant 83-ball hundred against England in the first Test at Lord’s and a thrilling 179 in the first innings at Old Trafford. Tendulkar was good but nobody would have predicted him achieving what he has.

    During a 15- to 20-year career, the technique of a player changes. The alterations are subtle – evolution rather than revolution – but they take place and the result is that by the end of a career a player is often unrecognisable at the crease to when he first picked up a bat. With Tendulkar this is not the case. At the start of his career he was slighter in build and in his stance his legs were a bit straighter; a set-up that resulted in his head occasionally falling over to the off side. But the range of stroke played by the Little Master back in 1990 was similar to now. When looking at footage of his first Test hundred on YouTube, you see the same effortless clips through the leg side and the beautiful wristy back-foot square drives where he rose on to the tips of his toes to get over the ball. And against spin he still seems to have telescopic arms, extensions that allow him to reach out to get to the pitch of a ball when driving. At the time, as an angry opposing bowler, I didn’t fully appreciate the quality of shots that were being played against me and my colleagues. I do now.

    Tendulkar’s brilliance runs far deeper than the gift of batting. No cricketer has ever had to cope with the attention and pressure he has. The fact that he has dealt with such intrusion, adoration and expectation and still managed to remain humble and human is as great a feat as compiling the runs he has. It is hard to imagine how the cricket-crazy Indian public will cope with his retirement. It will be like a Monarch passing away. Tendulkar is treated as a deity in India because of the masterful and relentless way in which he accumulates runs, but for me there have been two instances that have said as much about him and his character as the countless centuries he has amassed. They have highlighted just why he is such a great cricketer.

    The first came on India’s 2006 tour of England when Tendulkar struggled for form. He was as out of touch as I’ve seen and many pundits were planning, if not writing, his cricket obituary. How wrong we were.

    During the series, England’s fast bowlers seized on his uncertainty and went after him. Their plan was ruthless, centred on James Anderson, Chris Tremlett and Ryan Sidebottom bowling fast, straight and at his body. Watching one of the greatest players the game has seen being struck regularly about the body and bullied was not a pretty sight.

    During the series, Tendulkar revealed a side many of us had not witnessed before. The characteristics he displayed were guts and bravery. What we witnessed was how highly he valued his wicket. Lesser men would have thought: “At this stage of my career, I don’t really need this,” and then played a rash shot to get out. Not Tendulkar, he fought and fought and fought. In its own way it was brilliant to watch.

    The other occasion arose during last winter’s Test series between India and Australia. In the third Test in Bangalore, India required 207 to win and Tendulkar scored the winning runs when he swept Nathan Hauritz for two. Tendulkar was playing his 171st Test and you would have thought he would have seen it all before. Many cricketers, sadly, develop levels of cynicism as their careers advance, but there has never been such a reaction from Tendulkar. The ecstatic roar and look of complete joy after he had hit the winning runs showed just how much enjoyment he still gets from winning games of cricket. An alien watching his first game of cricket would have been forgiven for believing it was the first occasion this had happened to him.

    For me, the pride Tendulkar takes in his batting and the joy he still gets from playing – along with a fair bit of talent and a magnificent work ethic – are the reasons he has managed to stay at the top for as long as he has.

    Tendulkar’s greatness comes from his consistency and longevity. Many players are capable of producing the occasional moment of brilliance but very few can sustain a level of performance that is truly outstanding for more than 20 years. This is not achieved through possessing a god-given talent; it is achieved through having a deep love of the game, a passion that drives you to regularly spend two hours quietly batting on your own away from the spotlight and millions of fans.

    Cricket is a game of statistics and, in the same way it is hard to believe any player will surpass Sir Donald Bradman’s Test average of 99.94, Sir Jack Hobbs’ 61,760 first-class runs or Muttiah Muralitharan’s tally of 800 Test wickets, it is almost beyond belief that a cricketer will score more international hundreds than those Tendulkar finally ends up with.

    Each of the great names mentioned above has done a huge amount to promote cricket, as did figures like WG Grace, Sir Vivian Richards, Imran Khan, Shane Warne and Sir Ian Botham. But nobody in the history of the sport has done more to demonstrate how the game of cricket should be played than Tendulkar. There may have been greater players but quite frankly Tendulkar is the biggest name the game has ever seen.

    In the Lord’s Test of 1990, I managed to get Tendulkar out, caught by Graham Gooch at second slip, and on the Nursery Ground on Monday I told him I would have happily bowled at him for an hour had I known he was practising. Tendulkar modestly said: “No, you caused me enough problems in 1990.” As I walked back to my office I felt 10 feet tall.

    Six of crickets modern greats – Brian Lara, Shane Warne, Ricky Ponting, Adam Gilchrist, Muralitharan and Tendulkar – have never scored a hundred or taken a five-wicket haul at the home of cricket, performances that would place them on the famous honours boards that adorn the walls of the visitors’ dressing room in the Pavilion.

    I hope that Tendulkar achieves that landmark at Lord’s tomorrow or on Friday and that I am there to see it. I would imagine the feat would mean more to Tendulkar than almost any other and the sight of him raising his bat to acknowledge the landmark would be greeted as warmly as any at the home of cricket.

    Top of the pile: Why Sachin is finest batsman of modern era

    Of the three batsmen who have dominated Test cricket over the past 20 years, the ‘Little Master’ is the greatest of all. Here’s why:

    1. Sachin Tendulkar

    Around a billion Indians are perfectly sure about his genius. His gifts are obvious and he has lavished them on both forms of the game. Any doubts about his ability to provide under the most strenuous circumstances have long been allayed and the fact that he has amended his style to ensure longevity and yet retained or even increased his effectiveness makes him the leader of the modern triumvirate.

    2. Ricky Ponting

    There is nothing exactly elegant about Ponting. He goes at the ball with hard hands, which occasionally have undone him at the start of innings. But no batsman was more hard-nosed and the speed of his feet and the blazing ferocity and certainty of his strokes made him a match for anybody. If he can now reinvent himself it may yet demand a re-examination.

    3. Brian Lara

    At his considerable peak, which lasted a considerable time, he stood alone. Not only could he hit the ball to places other batsmen did not know existed but he did so with grace and power. The speed of his bat was matched by the consummate grace with which he wielded it and for his breathtakingly imperious batting in the 1999 series against Australia his place in the pantheon is assured.

    Most international centuries

    Test/ODI/T20/Total

    S Tendulkar (Ind) 51/48/0/99

    R Ponting (Aus) 39/30/0/69

    J Kallis (SA) 40/17/0/57

    B Lara (WI) 34/19/0/53

    M Jay’dene (SL) 28/15/1/44

  127. #127 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 20, 2011 - 4:30 PM

    Bichoo yaar, that was not a back up (I hope you didn’t really mean baked up) documentation support, it was only to clarify how human mind accepts anything when it is prepared, like I have said many times in my lectures that, “A mind can only see what it is prepared to see.” The long ages of Noah and other prophets are accepted by the Christian and Jews whereas, Hz Ayesha’s age has been highlighted only to ridicule the prophet and the Muslims. What I was trying to say is, thousands of years ago the accurate age calculation was not easy and whatever some people narrated has been passed on to others and in the process got distorted. The main point is about her physical and mental maturity.

    If I were to retort to your comment, I would have posted a few links about Lord Krishna’s 16,000 wives and, why Lord Shiva’s Lingam is famous or, why it took a god like Ram Chander ji 14 years to bring back his wife Sita from the prison of Rawan and how come being a god could not protect her and could not bring her back without the help of Hanuman ji.?

    And, I could have diverted the debate on that subject, but I chose only to clarify the age issue. I will not ridicule anyone’s religion or belief system because the basic concept of Islam is to convey the message or, clarify the doubts but, don’t impose your views and your religion on them unless they accept your views willingly after thinking it deliberately and seriously. There is a verse in Quran which says: Lakum Deena Kum Valee-e-Deen means: “To you, your religion and to me, mine.” Respecting others religion has been emphasized in the Quran on many places.

    Some people take just a phrase out of context and argue about it, I am not saying you but, among our Muslims too they do that without going into the detail or trying to understand it in what context it has been said. Example, it is written in Quran “going into the mosque is forbidden” people found an excuse. Actually the complete sentence is: “IF you are under the influence of alcohol, going into the mosque is forbidden.”

    Anyways, yar lets put this subject of religion as well as of Gandhi aside because, it is a complex subject and not easy to come to an agreement. Even among the Muslims there are so many sects and they don’t agree with each other so there is no point in deliberating it, especially if one is a bit cautious about speaking out his mind, (you wanted me to delete those comments of yours, whereas I find them perfectly OK because, we are discussing like matured adults and that too in a civilized manner, so there is no harm in expressing your views and I will keep them because, I respect you for what you are and what you say. And, same goes with Pawan and Sagaat.

  128. #128 by Sagaat on July 20, 2011 - 5:19 PM

    Tom,

    Its true that most commentators praise Tendulkar more than Lara, yet some who point to bigger scores or Lara’s dominating nature at the crease prefer Lara. Anyway, l think overall Tendulkar is better, if one days are also considered equal to tests. Many players’ statures fade when they retire. Waqar Younis, Steve Waugh, Wasim Akram, etc were much more reverred in their playing days than they are now. Murali is almost forgotten already, despite laying claims to being the best bowler in history. The only exceptions I can think of are Viv Richards and Shane Warne. Personally, I think Warne doesn’t deserve to be up there with the great players as he repeatedly succumbed against quality batsmen or an Indian team that plays spin well (he was incomplete unlike Mcgrath who dominated every team). His average is also 25-odd, and he had an abridged one day career. Then the whole drug saga and question marks over his integrity.

    Barry Richards:
    “Lara is a better batsman than Sachin simply because he tends to score big whenever he plays against teams like Australia and South Africa and the stats actually support it. Lara has scored three 200′s against the Aussies 2 of which have come in Australia and apart from that he has a test record of 375 as well whereas Sachin has a couple of 200′s against New Zealand and Zimbabwe and that too in India.”

    *”I have played a lot of cricket against Tendulkar compared to what I have played against Lara. While both are difficult to bowl to, I think Lara plays me better than Tendulkar. That Lara is a left-hander is an advantage to him, but the great thing about him is he launches into the attack straightaway. He uses his feet well against me while Tendulkar relies more on the sweep, I feel. I find Lara tougher.”

    Murali

    *”I have bowled to both Tendulkar and Lara and I have found Lara more attacking. Tendulkar has a tighter technique, no doubt, but Lara can single-handedly win the game for his team. I am not saying Tendulkar cannot do it but Lara has maybe done it more often than him. If you are asking me who the best batsman I have bowled to is, then it’s not Tendulkar and not Lara as well. It’s Martin Crowe… he was an amazing batsman. Regarding Tendulkar and Lara, I would love to have both in my team! Who wouldn’t?”
    Akram

  129. #129 by Bichoo on July 20, 2011 - 5:37 PM

    Javed Khan,

    I mean back up of course, but again, you are contradicting yourself when you say people wrote in wikipedia, a source you quoted for showing Gandhi’s behavior, that Hz Ayesha’s age has been highlighted only to ridicule the prophet and the Muslims. How could this be true? unless using the same logic people wrote this to ridicule Gandhi. Besides, the people who ridicule the Prophet, be them belong to any religion, what and who they in front of huge personality. I keep coming back to the same point, Javed, may be because I feel it is not sinking in who are we to pelt stones on people who are larger than us.

    Again, I have no disrespect the Prophet, I can only admire someone who was so hugely influential. As Gandhi said, what a brilliant life must have been his. I am not saying this to please you or other Muslims, I don’t have to because since he achieved so much it is self evident. All those people ridiculing are nothing.

    Moving on .. I do realize your reasons to question Gandhi though, I think I do, but don’t want to assume too much. You feel that Jinnah is not treated equally by history, unfairly, and that Gandhi has been given more importance than he should have been. This is very valid point. So, based on the freedom movement, as well as their lives as contemporaries and political strategists, they should be equals. I don’t know much about to say one way or other, but it is even possible that Jinnah could have been better than Gandhi in this regards. But, what you have to realize is that the one aspect that gives Gandhi the aura is his humanitarian values. This is where historians and so many other people including westerners were drawn to Gandhi, because of his non-violence movement, his rooting for the downtrodden, his sacrificing clothes, so on.. That made Gandhi a step above in those peoples mind, and they judged him to be above all, and placed him on top, while also overlooking his many failures. This is why I would also give Gandhi a pass on his failures. He was a great humanitarian, which in many ways put him above Jinnah. I agree you have reasons to believe that this is unfair. But that is how people think.

    Lastly, I do not have much faith in any religion. In fact, you could say about Krishna’s 16,000+ wives and Shiva Linga which is worshiped, and it will have no effect on me. For two reasons, first, in Hinduism these are not considered a problems, Krishna is a myth anyhow, he possibly could have been a historical figure, even then his stories and powers were exaggerated. There is a justification in Bhagavatam that says since Krishna is God Vishnu himself he can have several wives at the same time, because the God’s powers are so immense, that we ordinary people cannot even fathom this. As for Shiva lingam, Hindus worship everything as you probably know including the Snake and the Cow. In Hindu tradition everything in nature has reasons to exist and there is reason to worship.

    Me, I am a man of science, I don’t pray and I don’t go to Temple, unless it is a social visit, or someone in family wants to go and I have to accompany them. I have no issues being in Temple, Church, or Mosque, unlike some Atheists. I am not an Atheist either I guess, I am simple agnostic about religion and prayer. I don’t do it. I don’t have issue with others doing it. I do respect other people’s wishes.You might think then it is a contradiction how I can respect someone like Prophet Mohammad, Jesus Christ, or Budha. But I can because of the deeds they have done as humans. To me, I don’t believe there is a controlling God, and I don’t pray to that God.

    To me, good humans when they do good deeds, that is where what you call as god is.

  130. #130 by Konquest on July 20, 2011 - 6:31 PM

    Some comments from Pakpassion regarding the death of Afridi’s father:

    I also went to the Namaz-e-Janaza and met Faizan Lakhani there.

    The mosque was full. The road was full.

    Maulvi sahab said that his father raised his children in a great manner that despite being young and world famous Shahid Afridi is not in to bad things and that all his children are very God conscious.

    He also said that Afridi’s father was a very loving and caring human being, all his neighbours will testify.

    Afridi looked very different to me as he was in shalwar kameez & wearing a topi. He seemed a bit down when he was putting the body in the ambulance for the graveyard.

    I took an auto-rickshaw from my home to the mosque. On seeing the sea of people at the mosque, the rickshaw guy asked me about what was going on, on knowing he refused to charge me despite my repeated requests. And he came to the mosque with me for the funeral prayers.

    He said that he love Afridi a lot!
    —————–
    Altaf Hussen condoles over Afridi’s father’s death

    ——————–
    Umran Khan (Afridi’s manager) tweets: Just spoke to Shahid on a tough day for all…he seemed down but accepted the judgement of his creator…
    ——————–
    “I was very close to my father whenever I used to go to bat he used to pray alot for me. I have lost everything.” – Shahid Afridi
    ———————
    he is definitely a superstar. Everyone i know who lives in Karachi was there including the Governor Sindh and ex mayor of Karachi
    ————————–

  131. #131 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 21, 2011 - 12:55 PM

    Bichoo;

    I think I did not make myself clear on the age and wiki issue. There is a gulf of difference between what people think of Hz. Ayesha’s age on Wikipedia or on other websites and between what is written about Gandhi. Wiki does not ridicule people, it is those hate websites which do this by picking up some information from there and distorting it, or presenting it according to the way they want. Hence a lot of scholars say that there has been a misunderstanding about Ayesha’s age and a controversy has been created about her age and that is because it is a subject which is 1400 years old and it is not something like the Quran which has been preserved in the minds of hundreds and thousands of people hence it is unaltered, Whereas, the age issue not being so important got undue attention from those who like to create bad propaganda against the Prophet.

    Ayesha’s age wasn’t even a big issue then. In those days (and even up to now in some places including India and Pakistan) marrying a girl at young age was and is a practice and no one bats an eyelid. But, Ayesha’s age is picked up with a deliberate intention, whether you accept it or not they do it. For your information and only for academic purposes, I have seen a few hate websites where they use very derogatory comments about the Prophet, therefore, I decided not to go there, because the world is full of all kinds of people.

    As regards Gandhi’s sleeping naked with his nieces is not a 1400 years old event, even my father and grandfather told me about it and one doesn’t need verifications and authentications, it is a very well known fact, even before the advent of the Internet, there have been books, articles in various newspapers, journals etc. and Gandhi himself admitted in his autobiography and in his newspaper “Indian Opinion” and he even pleaded with the masses that ‘one should not marry if one if not capable of handling a marriage and remain a celibate.’ His experiments included stripteases and not just that he even imposed these experiments in he Ashrams where boys and girls were kept naked and bathed together etc. etc.. He may call these sexual experiments and give names such as, “yagna” or, whatever does not change the fact that, he was creating a cult. And, that was one of the reasons of his assassination.

    Among the Indians not only the Muslims but Hindus too were ashamed of his lustful sexual desires and his trivial interests he has turned his back from the Indian Independence movement which lead to the creation of Pakistan or Division of Bharat Mata. Nathuram Godse who assassinated Gandhi, his brother Gopal Godse was a Hindu nationalist. “He claimed that Gandhi never really said Hey Ram as he was dying and this was just a ploy of the government to prove that he was, indeed, a staunch Hindu who deserved to be elevated to sainthood. In an interview with Time Magazine he said, “Someone asked me whether Gandhi said, Hey Ram. I said Kingsley did say it. But Gandhi did not. Because that was not a drama.”

  132. #132 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 21, 2011 - 12:59 PM

    Konquest

    Thank you so much about updating with the news, which I am not following for the lack of interest in cricket and in Pakistan. Sorry to hear about the sad demise of Afridi’s father. When he was in Houston under treatment, some people were saying Afridi is a dramay baaz and he is just trying to show to the world that he cannot play cricket because his father is ill. They said, “Beemaar Veemaar koi nai hai, he has money so he took him to Houston for treatment.” Now that the old man has passed away, those who opened their big mouth should shut up by putting their own foot in their mouth. All I can say is Inna Lillah…………………………….. and may Allah grant Afridi and his family the courage to bear this irreparable loss.

  133. #133 by tom on July 21, 2011 - 1:34 PM

    Good toss for Dhoni to win and right decision. Strauss succumbing to a poor shot. Good start for india, 2 top order wickets for 50 odd runs

  134. #134 by aamir on July 21, 2011 - 9:01 PM

    my message here is for bichoo and the other person who started this discussion on gandhi and prophet mohammed, i was reading it frm b4 when javed khan was invited to comment on gandhi and when he did you guys responded with a link on prophet mohmmed and ayesha for which there was no need because the discussion was on gandhi and not mohammed or ayesha if u wanna compere then compere jinnah or any other leader and not prophet, why did you do that? i am not angry or upset but simply asking this question and i think javed khan is right that gandhi was trying to create a cult and he had lost his focus on independence and was more busy in experimenting something weired in his old age, gandhi was assassinated whereas jinnah died naturally and the people who killed gandhi were indian hindus and they very upset withhim b4 they liked him but then they thought he failed them so they killed him this is not u do to ur father of the nation and someone told me that gandhi became more popular because of his assasination.

    sent from my iphone
    aamir

  135. #135 by Bichoo on July 21, 2011 - 11:48 PM

    Javed Khan,

    The point remains the same, when history rates a prominent figure, it is based on the sum of whole parts, not specific parts itself. What you have done and continue to do is nit pick on specific pieces from a greater human beings life in an attempt to diminish their overall accomplishments. This is exactly what the nut jobs have done to the Prophet. I know all those uncharitable things said and I know those web sites, do you think I happened to quote wiki by chance? But I am not classless to site those things. I did that exactly for the reason you sited, wiki states it without any intent of malice.

    All I have done again is not pointing out the deed itself, simply drawing out parallel for events that can nit picked from a prominent figures life, and showing that it is a futile exercise, we have to rate them based on their overall accomplishments.

    I think I have failed in communicating this better to you, because you are still stuck focused on smaller events from a larger life. Either that or you are deliberately stuck on this point because you obviously feel so strongly about this one aspect of Gandhi’s life diminishes everything else he has done. If so, I feel sorry you feel that way.

    My friend, sometimes you have to open up your mind to see what the mind is not prepared to see :)

    Anyhow, let’s leave it at that. I am done any way, and no ill feelings whatsoever.

  136. #136 by Bichoo on July 21, 2011 - 11:51 PM

    Aamir, I won’t respond to yahoo chat or pakpassion type of comments, therefore if you don’t get any response from me it’s because I simply don’t have time to engage in that type of worthless conversation. If you want to have a bit more educated discussion then you will have to refine your thoughts a bit more and come back.

  137. #137 by Sagaat on July 22, 2011 - 3:12 PM

    A very good starting to the series between Eng-India. India seems to be in a dominant position with England 300-off for 5. If India can get England out around 350-370, then India will have the advantage with its superior batting.

  138. #138 by tom on July 22, 2011 - 5:53 PM

    Pietersen making mincemeat of Indian bowling,although Zaheer’s absence really hurt India. Bhajji was disappointing. Now upto Indian batting to save the match. All eyes will be on Tendulkar

  139. #139 by Konquest on July 22, 2011 - 9:47 PM

    Bichoo

    I have not read the entire discussion between Javed A Khan and you, but I find it is very important to point out that the life and customs of 1400 years ago were very different to 60 years ago and the modern day.

    Western historians and intellectuals often point out that the Prophet’s wife was 9 years old. But, have you ever seen such historians point out that the Prophet’s first wife was 15 years older than him?

    That is because the way Arabia was 1400 years ago, marriage and wedlock was not considered the way it is considered in the modern day. People were very tribal in mentality and “marriage” was really just a strategic ploy between families, tribes and governments to pursue ulterior motives.

    The fact that the Prophet’s first wife was a working woman who came mostly in contact with men throughout her daily routine and not only this, but 15 years his senior, shows that he was a broad visioned man. In those days women were either concubines or slaves of some kind, and Islam encouraged women to have some status in society.

    I am not alleging here that you considered the Prophet to be narrow minded, or perverted, but it is important that people should know the truth.

    As for Gandhi- for whatever reason his vision has left a mark on this world, and his thoughts and sayings have been endorsed by many great leaders such as Martin Luther King.

    All great men are controversial- recently some American wrote in a book that Gandhi was a secret homosexual and had a German male lover. People also say he used to abuse girls and drink cow’s urine.

    As for Pakistani people, they are grateful to Gandhi for his part in the independence movement and also for his sympathetic attitude towards Muslims following Partition when many Muslims lost their lives.

  140. #140 by Bichoo on July 22, 2011 - 11:21 PM

    Konquest,

    If you read my responses to Javed Khan you will understand that I was not nit picking on the life of the Prophet, but in fact, using one anecdotal evidence in an attempt to convince Javed Khan that historical figures should be rated based on the sum of their whole parts and not by any specific part itself.

    There is no need for you or Javed Khan to defend the Prophet’s marriage, when I did not even attack it, in fact, I am the one who is defending the position that great people should not be judged by people who have achieved way less than them. In the sense that I would not judge the Prophet, even when I have no faith in any particular god myself, likewise I pointed out that neither should he nit pick events from Gandhi’s life.

    I did not even compare them either, that is something again inferred from my posts by people reading it, I said their lives are not comparable, because they are not equals. That doesn’t prevent me though from drawing a parallel to show my point, that would not be comparison.

    The last part of your post is the gist of what I was trying to convey, that all great men are controversial, complex is the word I used.

  141. #141 by Sagaat on July 23, 2011 - 12:27 AM

    Khansahab,

    LOL at Gandhi having a German male lover. The thing is, amongst homosexual writers, there is almost a fashion now to pick up historical figures and claim they were homosexuals. How can Gandhi advocate celibacy and engage in homosexuality? What nonsense!

  142. #142 by Sagaat on July 23, 2011 - 12:40 AM

    Bear in mind that saying that historical figures are necessarily complex and must be eccentric sets a bad precedent. The point being that, people would rather consider homosexuality OK rather than castigate Gandhi for being homosexual (if that were hypothetically true). That would certainly distort the truth, that homosexuality would be considered OK (something Gandhi would never have advocated). The pioint is, such wrong information is used by writers to convey a false messge and make a simple figure controversial for their own ends. A lot of these historical figures aren’t controversial or eccentric. It is just that Gandhi was practicing to become celibate to set an example for others to become celibate. Now some would deride the way he went about it, some would appreciate it– but that shouldn’t change the fact that the point that Gandhi was advocating was self-control rather than an invitation to the eccentric or sexual experimentation.

  143. #143 by aamir on July 23, 2011 - 2:22 AM

    bichoo first you attacked with a sting like a real bichoo coz that is in your natue and then you are acting innocent by saying i did not compare the two personalities, who mention abt the prophet you or javed khan? secondly you may not only defend gandhi with all his immoral acts and antics you may go ahead and worship him like most indian hindus do btw who is surprised if you worship him? after all you guys worship cow, monkey and snakes and pls don’t mention the names of yahoochat or pakpassion coz if you say such things there those ppl will tear you to pieces the guys of this blog are very nice that they let you speak ur mind.

    sent from my iphone

  144. #144 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 23, 2011 - 3:20 AM

    Bichoo

    I still maintain my stance that Gandhi was a simple man, there is no complexity about his appearance or his principles in the freedom movement of India, the reason he became controversial is because of the unusual experiments he performed in a very unusual way and that by any standard is considered as immoral. If it is a good thing to sleep naked with your grand nieces then every Hindu person who calls Gandhi as Mahatma or Bapu would be sleeping naked with their grand nieces, do they sleep? No, they don’t because deep inside them they know it is immoral to do so. Not only Indian Hindus but, anywhere in the world no sane person would sleep naked with their grand nieces. Gandhi even mentioned in his autobiography that sometimes he even used to ejaculate while sleeping naked and even for that he had an answer that he is experimenting. These are his personal experiences but, he was experimenting in labs too i.e., in the Ashrams he made it compulsory for the boys and girls to sleep and bathe naked. So, that is why I have quoted that, he was creating a cult.

    Since the subject of Ayesha’s age was raised and earlier I said, there are reasons for the Prophet to marry 13 times and kept 4 wives at a time. I take the liberty to explain the reasons behind it.

    1400 years ago (also during world war 1 and 2) and even today a lot of men folks used to die in battles and the balance of men and women tilted with more women left. The result was 1400 years ago there was no one to support these women and they used to end up doing odd jobs and even becoming prostitutes. To avoid that, Islam insisted that widows and unmarried women who were helpless and totally dependent on the society must be protected from the abuse, hence the Prophet suggested his followers to own these women by marrying them and shelter them as well as give a name to their children.

    Having 4 wives at a time was also an example that men should not go out in search of prostitutes if they are not sexually satisfied with one wife. Like we all Muslims believe that the Prophet was a messenger of God and whatever he did in his life was an example for the rest of the Ummah to follow him. Now, a days barring a few (not even 0.5% of the Muslim population) have more than one wife. Its a rarity these days to see a man with 2 or more wives at one time. But, it is a very common sight today to see some young men having more than 6-8 girl friends at a time with whom they have casual relationship and one girl friend did not know about the other. Whereas, when you marry legally you declare to the world that you have more than one wife. Well polygamy is not allowed in the West and in many countries but having multiple sex partners at one time is acceptable and even more so homosexuality is also accepted and even encouraged. Polygamy is discouraged and illegal but, having multiple casual sex partners is OK?

    You should find out about Nafs-i-ammara which is the primitive stage of our soul which invokes and incites us to commit evil. Reportedly it has been said that, the Prophet Muhammad said after returning from a war, “We now return from the small struggle (Jihad Asghar) to the big struggle (Jihad Akbar)”. His companions asked, “Oh prophet of God, what is the big struggle?” He replied, “The struggle against nafs.” The Qur’an also emphasizes the need “to hinder the nafs from lust” Qur’an 79:40 And there is also a Al-Hadith that warns us that “the worst enemy you have is the nafs between your sides.

    In my view, not from the Islamic religious aspect only but, from morality point of view also, you don’t need to actually indulge in such sexual activities and tell the world that “I am experimenting” YES, you are allowed to do anything, experimenting sleeping naked or, indulging in homosexuality and what not, but, don’t say that, morally and ethically it is right and correct. No religion on earth encourage such actions and no culture will allow such activities. Unfortunately today it is not only accepted and approved but, everything he did, right or wrong is accepted, appreciated and even worshiped, Then why not every person who believes in Gandhi’s principles should do the same and see how the other members of the family, friends and neighbours would respond to such acts?

    Every individual is responsible for his own acts the only difference here is Gandhi was a celebrity and now he is a “super being” so no body raises an eyebrow or bat an eyelid, in fact he is worshiped for what he did, if the same thing is done by a common man or a poor man today, they will slaughter him to death and I am not talking about Muslim reaction but, in general in all the societies of the world, they will react with anger. But, like they say India is a weird country and in Hinduism you can worship anything you like or afraid of. So, I rest my case here, you may call me whatever you want but, I am neither unhappy nor I am upset. BUT definitely he is not my Hero. So, I really don’t care what he did.

    The only thing that bothers me is when celebrities propagates such theories and tell the world that we all should do the same IS WRONG because, you have no right to convince others about something which is immoral, illegal and absolutely inappropriate. In today’s world it will be considered as incest or akin to statutory rape . If you think or say that Gandhi never propagate or persuaded others, I would like to repeat here i.e., what I have said a few days ago that he did make a big call and asked people to practice Brahmachariya if they cannot handle their marriage. He did that to Kastoorba, but he has no right to tell the world that he was right and they should follow him. I have written here in the past that Shahrukh Khan can do whatever he wants i.e., when he claimed that in his house, he has a Temple next to his Muslim worshiping place and tells the world that Allah and other Gods are just the same. He has no right to do that, because it is SHIRK. He can practice whatever religion he likes or raise his son half this and half then but, don’t tell the other Indian kids that this is what the truth is.

  145. #145 by tom on July 23, 2011 - 11:23 AM

    I have followed the discussion about great personalities and the following themes seem to resonate from this discussion.

    Great personalities are complex/controversial.
    Jesus Christ had an unblemished personality ( as is the case with all prophets). Worst case scenario is his mode of birth which was a miracle of God but even if some consider it objectionable, it does not tarnish his personality.

    ordinary people should not judge great people.
    Unless one doesnt judge a person ,how can he follow him or make him his ideal. if I go to a church and observe the priest, i’ll have some sort of judgement about him after few encounters. If my judgement clears him, ill get closer to him but if I notice some questionable tendencies i’ll either go somewhere else or lose my intensity with regards to my admiration for him.

    Great people have transparent lives. Even a man with ordinary intellectual and assessment ability is able to evaluate them and their greatness ultimately convinces him to admire them. The notion that greatness gives one the license to stray a little is dangerous as it permeates into his followers and cultivates the same mindset within the followers. If a saint ocassionally lies, then rest assured his followers will do the same no matter how lofty deeds the saint performs. If it is ok for my father to lie, then my tongue will be tempted to lie.

    When we label a pesrsonality as great, we have judged him by default according to our own standards. Prophets and political leaders cant be compared as politics is universally speaking a treacherous field and hence the two cant be equated. sometimes leaders are admired to the degree that they are given prophet like status but one should categorize first whether the personality is a politician, social worker or a prophet. If my ideal has a shortcoming, it would be poor rhetoric on my part to ascribe that property to all greats as a mechanism of defense. It would mean that i acknowledge that my the objection about my ideal is correct. In such a situation. i should do some soul searching and find the truth.

  146. #146 by Konquest on July 23, 2011 - 2:35 PM

    Recently the Sindh minister and close aide of Zardari, Dr Zulfiqar Mirza, lambasted Urdu Speakers on national TV. He was at the residence of Shahi Syed, the leader of the Pushtoon Awami National Party in Sindh. PPP and ANP are key allies in the Sindh government.

    It must be noted that when MQM was in Sindh government, in Musharraf’s time, there was no target killing in Karachi.

    As for Shahi Syed, the Pushtoon leader, there is a video on Youtube where he is pronouncing Urdu Speakers as “Bhaiyya log” and there are many Pathans standing around him with weapons. He is inciting hatred against Urdu Speakers- again this was done out in the open.

    This is what Zulfiqar Mirza said in reference to Urdu Speakers,

    “Yeh log nangay bhookey aaye sey aur hum ney inn ko panah di” (These people migrated naked and hungry and we gave them shelter)

    “Meri Karachi aur Hyderabad key logon sey appeal hai key inn logon ko nikaalein” (I request the people of Karachi and Hyderabad to remove these people)

    After these statements between 10-15 people were killed in Karachi and cars were burnt. Whilst there is no evidence as to who was responsible, assuming it was the MQM, then it is highly condemnable and life is the most precious thing, and killing people is worse than criticising an ethnicity. However, scores of people die in Karachi everyday and in 2010, 300 MQM members were killed in target killings whereas 78 people of ALL OTHER parties were killed in Karachi- these are the statistics of Human Rights Commission of Pakistan which is an independent body.

    What I was shocked about is that even 64 years after independence, Pakistanis still don’t understand what Pakistan was made for the Muslims of that region, and not only for Sindhis, Punjabis, Pathans and Baluchis. Practically speaking, the Muslim majority states of Sindh, Punjab, NWFP and Baluchistan were always going to be made into Pakistan, but it was always discussed and assumed that Pakistan was made for the Muslims of the subcontinent. Anyone who disagrees with this statement is anti-Pakistan and disagrees with the principles of Jinnah and the senior leaders of the independence movement.

    For some reason, in Pakistan, whenever Sindhis, Punjabis or Pathans are angry, it is always the Urdu Speakers who are blamed and their roots in another country and status are migrants is attacked.
    Pakistan can never be a stable country unless all ethnicities are respected and treated as Pakistanis. The Sindhis who migrated from Rajasthan, the Punjabis who migrated from Amritsar, Ludhiana, Jallandar and Hoshiarpur, the Baluchis who migrated from Iran and the Pathans who migrated from Afghanistan- why is their status never attacked?

    If people hold such sentiments against Urdu Speakers, then was it really wrong for Altaf Hussein to claim that Partition was a mistake or blunder?

    The contribution of Urdu Speakers to Pakistan is enormous:

    1) The MQM is the only party that represents middle class people and promotes people on the basis of merit
    2) The MQM is most diverse party in Pakistan, having Christians, Hindus, Sindhis and Pathans in major positions
    3) Contributions in arts, film, media, literature, poetry, television etc
    4) Contributions in education, science, industry etc

    In fact, it is because of Urdu Speakers that now the educated people in Pakistan are recognising that feudalism has damaged the country’s economic potential. People are talking about media, transparency, involvement of middle class in politics and government- most of this is because of Urdu Speakers.

    What is worse is that Zulfiqar Mirza has complete support of the government and outside Karachi, there was negligible opposition to Mirza’s statements. At the very least Mirza should have been sacked from the PPP.

    Something is very wrong with Pakistan because even after 64 years, it seems people are still confused why Pakistan was made. How can they talk about prosperity, progress, development when they don’t know the reason why their country was made?

  147. #147 by Bichoo on July 23, 2011 - 2:54 PM

    Javed Khan,

    At this point neither of us here are making objective comments, since you have so deeply invested into your argument and are not willing to give up ground, as do I.

    What you are trying to do is still explain away what other people call as anomalies from Prophet Muhammad’s life. As I said in first place, I am not very much concerned with it in first place. But that fact you feel like you want to defend it shows that you are concerned by what other people have said about the Prophet’s marriages

    However, it must also be noted that as tom pointed out Jesus Christ has an unblemished personality. There is not a single event where you can find immoral or other acts with his deeds. So much that there is not any need for anyone to explain away or defend those actions with logic

    I don’t buy the argument that Muslims marry multiple times as a justification to protect women from taking up prostitution. This logic seems have been built in later as an excuse for what might be constructed as immoral. In other words, it is a convenient excuse for an immoral act. Same goes for underage marriage. The explanation that 1400 years ago, girls were more mature does not hold water.

    But as I said, it doesn’t matter much at this point since there is no objectivity in this debate. Let’s move on.

  148. #148 by Konquest on July 23, 2011 - 3:10 PM

    Bichoo

    Jesus Christ was perceived by many to be a magician. Some accused him of practising the black arts. So, he was not entirely unblemished. Plus, he was more elusive, did not “live” amongst people like Muhammad (SAW) did. He was a wanderer, and convinced people about God whilst performing miracles rather than through his character or personality.

    This rule about 4 marriages came as an aftermath to a period when Muslims were invaded from all corners- Jews, Christians, idolators, the rich and powerful- all of them saw the progressive and democratic ideals of Muslims as a threat to their status quo and frequently waged war against Muslims. So, Muslim men died disproportionately to their women, and as the ratio of men and women came down to something like 1:4, multiple marriages for men became admissable. From my knowledge and understanding, one of the reasons this happened was to protect women from becoming harems and concubines.

    As for marriage to a 9 year old girl, I have clearly answered that point- in those days the age of the boy or girl did not matter. The Prophet’s first marriage was to a woman who was 15 years older than him. If you are concerned about this then you should also be considered about why people wore leaves as clothes, rather than jeans or suits in the stone ages.

  149. #149 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 23, 2011 - 3:31 PM

    Bichoo

    LOL… neither I nor anyone on this blog ever said that 1400 years ago girls were more matured.

    I only said that, in Ayesha’s case she was more matured than her age (physically and mentally) and, even more intelligent than women older than her. Do you think it wasn’t possible 1400 years go? Even today we have some brilliant youngsters in every field who are smarter than many oldies. Ayesha’s age is not something significant that needs to be discussed, history is full of events where marrying someone very young was a common thing. People accept Virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus, but they don’t accept that Ayesha was a very matured person when she got married. All, I can say is there are mental blocks and it is very difficult for people to get over with it.

    You say that I have deeply invested into my argument or did a lot of research for this argument, the fact is I have had such debates more than a few times and I know how others feel about it and I have repeatedly mentioned that I am not here to change anyone’s views, opinions, belief system etc. I simply express my opinion the way I see it and the way I understand it.

    You have quoted “tom’s” view about Jesus Christ that he has an unblemished personality, it was said in what context? Should one assume that other prophets have anomalies in their personalities which makes us blemish? Muslims have never said any such word about the other prophets and messengers of God that should be considered as derogatory or insulting. In fact Muslims believe in Jesus and Moses and also in the 124,000 other prophets that came (most of us do not know their names) before the prophet Muhammed.

    You may not buy or borrow the argument that Muslims marry multiple times as a justification to protect women from taking up prostitution. And by saying, “This logic seems have been built in later as an excuse for what might be constructed as immoral. In other words, it is a convenient excuse for an immoral act.” are you implying that this so-called logic which you call was built later and NOT during the prophet’s life? Do you think people were ashamed of what the prophet did and they wanted to cover it with an excuse after he died? There is not a single thing that the Prophet did was considered as unjust or immoral, he did that as an example to prove for the rest of the Ummah (followers) and we call it Sunnah.

    In those days the population was far less than what it is today and in societies which were more like small communities, it was easy to spot people, whereas today we see thousands of new faces everyday and don’t remember them, the point is in those days, someone’s widow or orphans were known to everyone because, I repeat, the societies were like communities and prior to the advent of Islam, prostitution and immoral activities were thriving, to curtail and eradicate that profession, marrying them was encouraged and Islam spread the message of peace, morality, ethics, mutual respect and a way of life. Hence those who were in that profession even, they changed and those who may have gone into that profession refrained from doing so. Whether you accept it or not it is a fact.

  150. #150 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 23, 2011 - 3:37 PM

    Konquest

    You have echoed my voice which I raised in the previous comments on this subject and also one just a few minutes ago. I know it is hard for people to understand someone else’s point of view. The only good thing that is happening here is, we are discussing this in a civil way without getting emotional and without accusing anyone. Bichoo has his right to express his views and so is Pawan, who has been just a spectator now. :D

  151. #151 by Bichoo on July 23, 2011 - 4:01 PM

    Javed Khan,

    You asked:
    are you implying that this so-called logic which you call was built later and NOT during the prophet’s life? Do you think people were ashamed of what the prophet did and they wanted to cover it with an excuse after he died? There is not a single thing that the Prophet did was considered as unjust or immoral, he did that as an example to prove for the rest of the Ummah

    Yes, indeed, I am. not just this, but so many other things, like Jesus performing miracles, and stories about special powers of Krishna or Rama. These events are all later on explained away by disciples. In many cases there is a concerted effort.

    You would obviously say that in Prophets case this is not true, but that is only because you are a believer and you are conditioned to think that way, rather you are forced into supporting that view.

    Got to go now, later.

  152. #152 by Sagaat on July 23, 2011 - 5:21 PM

    Remarkable innings by Dravid. Bichoo would rather that this great matchwinner/matchsaver not be in the team just because he said Lara is a better player than Tendulkar.

    As regards to explanations to justify what happened, people have to realize what Javed Khan is saying. He is saying that there is no need for justification as for Muslims the prophet’s actions are perfect anyway. Therefore, to them there is no need to justify his actions. Facts exist not in order to justify his actions, but regardless. I think if Javed Khan is researching and properly claiming things to be facts, there is no reason to doubt him.

    And Javed Khan raised a valid point. What is wrong with multiple marriages when essentially multiple sex partners exist. Marriage at least is a proper, systematic way to go about things, by giving rights to women.. When Shane Warne was having the threesome, the media actually got excited rather than condemning it ;) In fact the writers at cricinfo went nuts in jubiliation. That was ridiculous. And, the concept behind multiple marriages is that, the man should be able to treat each wife equally. It is obviously not encouraged.

  153. #153 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 23, 2011 - 5:46 PM

    Bichoo

    Since you have spilled the beans, I would say that the reason you are telling this now is because of your claim to be agnostic then you are also conditioned to believe like that. Imo, it is nothing but denial from reality and believing in the obvious which is present and this has come from the Hinduism set of belief that they worship which is obvious and can be seen.

    In case of Krishna and Rama, Hindus consider them as Gods whereas in case of Prophet Muhammed, Muslims belief in him as the Messenger of God and he himself said it many times that, I am a human being like you and, I am a messenger of God. There were prophets and there were messengers in different times. May be Hindus are ashamed of Krishna’s 16000 wives and his fantasies with the Gopies and his stealing the clothes of the devotees who were then bathing and used to climb up the tree with their clothes and when they came to him, begging him to give their clothes back, he used to ask them to raise their arms up and beg for the clothes, so that he could see their bosoms. Is this not mentioned in Gita and Mahabharat? You may call the later as an epic. And how come so many of Krishna’s so-called wives jumped into the pyre of fire (Sati) when he died?

    What special powers of Rama, are you talking about? My question in the previous comment remained unanswered that, how come Rawan took Sita to Lanka in a day and how come it took Ram being a God took 14 years to bring her back? And, that too with the help of Hanuman and an army of a few hundred thousand monkeys who built a bridge over the Indian ocean between Kaniya Kumari and Lanka which does not exist anymore! And, that bridge made it possible for him to go to Lanka and bring her back.

    Don’t think that I am trying to ridicule Hinduism, I have even debated with Muslims about Shaq-ul-Qamar i.e., splitting of the moon. The splitting of the moon is mentioned in the Quran but, not the way as some Muslims believe and say that prophet Muhammed performed a miracle by raising his index finger and splitting the moon into two, and one piece fell behind the mountain, it is not correct. Because, he did not do that, he only sighted the moon with a split in it and said, these are the miracles of Allah and he himself never performed any miracles but, people have claimed this later, however not every Muslim scholar or, even an ordinary person like me believes in it.

    Jesus and Moses performed miracles because, during that time the people would only believe in miracles, but Prophet Muhammed said, I will not perform any miracles, the only miracle that happened during my lifetime is the revelation of Quran itself and that is enough for anyone to read it, understand it, believe in it and practice it. Those who don’t are obviously disbelievers.

  154. #154 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 23, 2011 - 5:53 PM

    Sagaat;

    LOL at bringing in Shane Warne in the middle of the discussion, his threesome is more popular than his ball of the century! :D

    Dravid‘s century is the only hallmark of Indian innings and his valiant efforts to fight has outshone Pietersen‘s double ton.

  155. #155 by tom on July 23, 2011 - 5:59 PM

    My comments explicitly state that “Jesus Christ had an unblemished personality (as is the case with all prophets).”
    the context of my statement is pretty clear. Iam appaled to read that Jesus Christ did not live among people and was labelled a magician. perhaps the point about crucification of Jesus is being missed. Virtually all prophets were accused of being magicians. thats not a blemish. A blemish is when a charge is proved. According to Islam, Jesus Christ will come back on earth as a Mohammedan. Its disappointing to read that just to prove a point, one goes against the dictates of his own faith. Young age marriages are common in rural areas of subcontinent even today and it was prevalent in Arab culture in those days. Thats why no one objected to prophet Mohammad’s marriage with Hz Aisha in those days but there was a furore when He married Hz Zainab.
    Gandhi is not a prophet.no holy book was revealed upon him. People may admire him to the degree that they may consider him a saint but he did not bring a new religion or a new code of life. Even he admired religious personalities on whom objections are being raised. There are questions about his conduct but his personality doesnt affect one’s faith, so its upto an individual how he perceives him.

    Indian innings supports Sagaats theory to an extent about Dravid and Laxman playing more important pressure innings than Sachin. anyway , lots of cricket left.

  156. #156 by Konquest on July 23, 2011 - 6:18 PM

    Tom

    To you all prophets might be unblemished, but I was speaking from others’ point of view. I don’t know why you are appalled to read that Jesus was branded a magician, when you accept that all prophets were accused of being magicians.

    The reason why I inserted quotation marks around the word, “live” to describe Jesus, was became he did not live amongst people like how other prophets did. He did not marry, he did not work like how the Prophet (SAW) used to trade or herd cattle. He had no aspirations to raise a family. He did not mingle with people like Muhammad (SAW) did- he used to wander and promote God’s word.

    Why does that surprise you so much? And how am I going against the dictates of my faith?

    Young girls get married to older men in the Subcontinent but marrying someone 15 years older is extremely rare. You are erring in analysing today’s world with that of 1400 years ago and in doing so you are basically supporting Bichoo’s strategy which you actually supposedly want to oppose. Even in today’s world some tribes in the Amazon rainforest or in Africa, wear leaves as clothes. But that is something very different to the stone ages. Then, it was normality. Today it is extremely rare and it is their fault that they haven’t modernised.

  157. #157 by Konquest on July 23, 2011 - 6:23 PM

    Sagaat

    Having multiple girlfriends should not be the same as having four wives. I don’t think the two should be compared. Having multiple sexual partners may be for many different reasons, but having four wives in Islam is for a very different reason. Even if one wants a diverse sexual experience by having four sexual partners, the fact that it will be an arranged Muslim marriage, and there will be very different social considerations and practices, I think means that it is an improper comparison.

  158. #158 by Konquest on July 23, 2011 - 6:30 PM

    Great knock by Dravid. There would always be huge psychological pressure on India in the absence of Sehwag and the injury to Zaheer. Dravid delivered when it was needed. This is one of the instances when SRT’s pressure handling skills will come under the spotlight.

  159. #159 by Sagaat on July 23, 2011 - 6:57 PM

    Konquest,

    It is not just this occasion which questions SRT’s ability to handle pressure, but there are many occassions the sum of which points to SRT’s inability to handle pressure. I think on a relatively flat track, in a match that would decidedly be a draw on the third day, SRT would hit a big century in this series. Laxman will probably play a classy matchwinning/saving knock somwhere. And, Dravid like Laxman has done/will do his part. Of course all this is just prediction :P

  160. #160 by Bichoo on July 23, 2011 - 7:01 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Hindus are not ashamed of Krishna stealing gopis clothes and asking them to raise their hands so he can have a look at their whatever. I never heard anyone talking about it in a negative tone. In fact, those were considered his leelas. Anyway, I don’t know why you are asking me all this when I am least interested in supporting them. I already told you that you can say whatever you want to say about it.

    To me it is not a question of Islam vs. Hinuism or Christianity or what not. As I said, I don’t even believe in the concept of God, which I think is a way to make people fear and subjugate to some religious ideals. So, how can I believe anything when you say the Prophet received wisdom directly from God? I have respect for him since he is a historical figure and he possibility had great humanitarian values, without which it must have been impossible to influence so many people. But, who knows.

    Since you believe, then you are forced to support that and never question it. Where as, I do not have any such constraint. I can think with own mind. Also, I have heard that in Islam you cannot question the Prophet or anything written in Quran. If this is true, how will anyone ever have free thinking? I am sure you do have a ready answer for this since it has already been asked several times ;) But again, those answer are just a way to explain away, or justify their existence.

  161. #161 by Sagaat on July 23, 2011 - 7:02 PM

    Konquest,

    I think having multiple sex partners may be for only one reason, but marriage with four wives may be for multiple reasons (raising women from the status of slaves in those times, or making them a party to the rights of property, etc)…

  162. #162 by Bichoo on July 23, 2011 - 7:06 PM

    Sagaat,

    Great knock by Dravid, no doubt. I am glad I was proven wrong about him being not successful in England, I thought perhaps he will struggle, when in fact it was Tendulkar and Laxman who struggled. I am a bit disappointed in Tendulkar not taking making good, especially since he was looking good.

    BTW, I already clarified that I did not ask Dravid to be overlooked because he said Lara is greater than Tendulkar, that is your interpretation. I was looking at how his form slumped and perhaps he will struggle against a better pace attack in England. That doesn’t appear to be the case. You should not infer what other people are thinking.

    Anyway, there are four tests to be played, and even in this test there are two more days, let’s see how things shape up.

  163. #163 by Bichoo on July 23, 2011 - 7:10 PM

    Konquest / Sagaat,

    I think sex with multiple partners is one of the most important things about multiple marriages :) perhaps there are some who do for other reasons, but let’s not kid ourselves, we are all grown up people.

  164. #164 by Sagaat on July 23, 2011 - 7:27 PM

    Bichoo,

    Relax. It was a joke. I know that wasn’t the reason you were castigating Dravid.

    As regards to multiple sex partners, firstly it is not about what you think, that makes it true. There is free thinking but it is wrong to suggest that thinking freely is tantamount to free thinking. Free thinking is when a person has done proper historical researcch, philosophical research, etc to claim something as fact. You could infer by thinking freely but you can only claim a fact by free thinking. Perhaps I have done this on many occassions too, but it is quite blatant in this case. You are suggesting whatever is running on your mind. And, supposing, someone takes advatange of this dictum or the possibility of having multiple marriages without due regard to the context and its justification, or for sexual purposes alone, then it is only as bad as having multiple sex partners. But I believe any law in itself is neutral; the context within which it is applied that makes it morally compliable or not. That law may have positive connotations if applied properly: Suppose a well-to-do person marries a woman in extreme poverty as a second wife, thus making her children a party to the rights of inheritence. That would certainly suggest that it was moral for that person to do that. In another context it may sound morally wrong. So, we are all grown-ups, but its never to late to, in the words of Waqar, “have a good head on the shoulders”.

  165. #165 by Sagaat on July 23, 2011 - 8:07 PM

    Another point that I’d like to point about this new way of thinking freely is that, it has no moral system that it adheres to. This is ironic in the history of human thought as systems of thought and morality have existed– with or without religion. I think it is better to ‘believe’ in a system of thought rather than not to believe in one altogether. This is because then all morality becomes either legal restraint or a matter of whim or fancy (there is no reflection and self-control). Naturally concerning any system of thought, before you ascribe to it, you will see both the positives and the negatives when you look at things in islation. But when we look at laws and dictums within their contexts, it might appeal to our moral intuitions. Then the whole which sounds the most reasonable to an individual becomes his modus operandi. However, it is dangerous to think of morality as beng a matter of whim and fancy without adhering to a proper system. I would respect a good Christian, a good jew, or a good Hindu more than someone who ascribes to thinking freely, and whim and fancy, as his way of living.

  166. #166 by tom on July 23, 2011 - 8:51 PM

    Konquest

    Iam not supporting or opposing anyone; perhaps thats one reason why you havent fully understood my point.
    Your facts about Jesus Christ are incomplete. A whole book was revealed upon him and there are chapters in Koran depicting facts about his life.
    If he was spreading God’s word and it was God’s will to spread His word by travelling; then whats wrong with thazt? You point out to his celibate state but you forget that he was crucified at age 34. Saint John the Baptist married but did not cohabit. I wonder why you are so concerned about marriage. Prophets are in a way in direct communication with God and they follow as ordered. and they dont deviate 1% from that. You can ask any religious scholar of any faith and he will testify to this fact. Accusations dont blemish a person’s record , it is his deeds.
    Marrying an older woman is not at all rare. I personally know many couples where the woman is older than the husband ( even by 20 years).
    Bichoo confesses to be a sort of an atheist- had he been the one raising this ordinary stuff, i would have understood. but you suggesting that Jesus didnt aspire to have a family is absurd. If the same stuff came from Bichoo , you would have countered it.
    According to Islamic traditions, Jesus will come with Mehdi and defeat dajjal. He will also marry so dont be concerned about his celibacy and occupation. Its better if you speak from your view point rather than other’s viewpoint. But first you better do some research and try to understand the relationship between Prophet Mohammad and Jesus and what is his standing according to islam.

  167. #167 by Konquest on July 23, 2011 - 11:36 PM

    The poem “Suna Hai” by Ahmed Faraz. I am highlighting the couplets which I think are really deep and impressive:

    Suna Hai Log Us Ko Ankh Bher Ker Dekhtay Hain

    So Uskey Shehar Main Kuch Din Thehr Ker dekhtay Hain

    Suna Hai Is Ko Bhi Hai Shair-o-Shaire Se Shaghaf

    So Hum Bhi Moajzey Apney Huner K Dekhtay Hain

    Suna Hai Boley To Batoon se Phool Jhertey Hain

    Yeh Baat Hai To Chalo Baat Kar K Dekhtey Hain

    Suna Hai Raat Usey Chand Takta Rehta Hai

    Sitarey Bam-o-Falak Se Uter Ker Dekhtay Hain

    Suna Hai Din Ko Titliyan Usey Satati Hain

    Suna Hai Raat Ko Jugnu Thehr K Dekhtey Hain

    Suna Hai Is K Labon Se Gulaab Jaltey Hain

    Mousam-e-Bahar Per Ilzam Dher K Dekhtey Hain

    Suna Hai Is K Badan Ki Tarash Aesi Hai

    K Phool Apni Qabaen Kutter Ker Dekhtey Hain

    Rukey To Gardishen Is Ka Tawaf Karti Hain

    Chaley To Is ko Zamaney Thehr K Dekhtey Hain

    Kahaniyan Hi Sahih Sab Mubalghey Hi Sahih

    Ager Woh Khaab Hai To Tabeer Kar K Dekhtey Hain

    Ab Is Sheher Main Thehren K Kooch Ker Jain

    Faraz Aao Sitarey Safer K Dekhtey Hain

  168. #168 by Konquest on July 23, 2011 - 11:46 PM

    Sagaat

    I was referring to the fact that, without going into detail, a person can have multiple sexual partners for many reasons. They might be to do with his own sexuality, with his wife/girlfriend’s sexuality, he might do it with friends, he might do it for fun, he might do it because someone else wants him to do it, he might do it in groups, he might do it with with the same or opposite sex.

    But, marriage in Islam is obviously very different. Four marriages for one man would obviously be arranged (or most of them anyway) and there will not be that same spark with sex as there would be with either a very liberal attitude to sex (as in the preceding paragraph), or with someone a person loves or has some kind of strong feelings for. The reason why it is very unlike the preceding paragraph is because it becomes a family affair and it is linked to culture and religion.

    If you see the majority of men who have more than one wife, they married because of family or cultural reasons, they did not marry for satisfaction for sexual urges- or even if that is a benefit they want to derive from the relationship, it was not the basis of the why the relationship came into being in the first place. I don’t need to spell this out for you because you and Javed A Khan will both know very well how marriages are “planned” in the Asian/Muslim culture.

    Bichoo, perhaps only Muslim sheikhs marry 4 wives for sexual reasons. Just like how they keep concubines.

  169. #169 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 24, 2011 - 1:14 AM

    I think Sagaat made some real valid points in his comments 165 and 166.

    Bichoo, your point about me being a believer cannot question and I am forced to support the ideology of Islam or the Prophet’s way of life is your own free thinking. In my previous comment, I wrote that I have debated with Muslims on the splitting of the moon. Whatever I don’t understand, I try to find out more and more about it, till I am satisfied and if I get a satisfying answer, even then I ask some scholarly people to verify it. When my mind is clear and it is without bias, then I support that idea and not blindly. And, in the process I learn a lot and if I am sharing my views here does not mean I am imposing my views or I am narrating it like a parrot without knowing the facts and the truth. Because, in your opinion I am a believer and I am programmed to believe like that have faith in it.

    Yes, some less educated people say that one should not discuss about religion or raise questions if they have doubt about it because, we are not competent enough to discuss, this is wrong because everyone has the right to use his own grey matter in order to understand and accept the concepts of the religion. Just because you claim to be an agnostic so, you are bluntly rejecting every example by saying, I don’t believe in Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism etc., etc. In other words you are acting as if you have the license to kill and you are placing yourself above all the religions of the world, then how come you say or claim that you respect Prophet Muhammed, Jesus, Rama, Gandhi etc., and why? Since you don’t believe in their preachings you should not have any respect for them. OR, you are saying this because you do not want to antagonize everyone with your more blatant comments?

    On your last question about Muslims cannot question what is written in Quran and why the Prophet has said something, your perception is wrong, I do not have ready made answers but, I can explain this to you in a separate comment.

  170. #170 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 24, 2011 - 2:18 AM

    Bichoo,

    Here is a ready made answer: A few months ago, someone I know here in our community – a Muslim – said, “I was reading the Quran and in Surah Al-Tauba or Verse Repentance, it is clearly mentioned that if you see a disbeliever you should kill him.” And, he emphasized his point by saying, “I have read it myself.” I told him, did you read the tafseer i.e., in what context it is mentioned? He said, NO, I don’t need the detailed explanation the translation is enough for me. I said, OK, then go out and start killing ALL the disbelievers. And, I asked him, what is the punishment for you if you disobey and disregard Allah’s orders? He replied, then you are worst than a disbeliever. I said, by not killing the disbelievers you are disobeying Allah’s order, so go out and start killing.

    He got very perplexed and confused and I told him look, if that was supposed to be done then, since the last 1400 years, all the Muslims must have been killing all the disbelievers and how come such an important point is being ignored by the religious scholars? Then, I told him the details, to sum it briefly, in those days there was a war going on between Believers and Disbelievers and the disbelievers used to attack the Muslims or believers in isolated case when it is dark and many believers were taken by surprise and got killed. The Muslims were not doing anything similar and they asked the Prophet how they should defend themselves? It was then the verse was revealed and in it, it says that if you see your enemy or, even if he is hiding go attack him and kill him. But, the verse further explains this in detail by saying, before you kill them tell them that what they are doing is wrong and if they stop attacking them and if they accept Islam, forgive them because Allah is the most merciful and forgiving and you may release him in Allah’s name and offer him peace.

    So, my dear Bichoo whoever told you that questioning is not allowed in Quran is wrong. People still ask questions which they don’t understand the only thing is you have to ask those questions with respect and in a civil way and without ridiculing and insulting or passing derogatory comments on prophet’s life or the Holy Book. If you are interested in knowing how come the Quran is still preserved in its original form whereas, Bible,Torah and Zabur all got changed and altered. If you want to know I will write, otherwise I do not want to impose it on you because, that is not what I would do.

  171. #171 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 6:09 AM

    Khansahab,

    None of them are reasons, just preferences (in many instances, slightly perverted :P). There is a difference between reasons and preferences. Nobody would say that XYZ had a threesome because of a certain reason, but it may seem natural if someone would ascribe a sexual act to a preference. Now marrying multiple wives can have various reasons, some of which I have mentioned above. I know in the former case it would be a bit controversial to suggest that there ‘are no reasons’ and just ‘preferences’ as that would be a matter of opinion as far as certain sexual acts (such as homosexuality) are concerned. But that is a debate for another time.

    As far as marriages governed by traditions, according to Islamic law both the male and female have to agree. Neither is it, I think, technically forced or subject to approval. As a matter of practice it is quite different and you can question that. I don’t care either way. But if you have something personally in mind, by all means go for it :D

  172. #172 by Konquest on July 24, 2011 - 8:58 AM

    Sagaat,

    I don’t think this point should be laboured, but reason and preference can be the same thing or can be closely linked. If a man wants his girlfriend to sleep with a woman, then that is a reason, not a preference. Similarly if a man hires two escorts or prostitutes together, then they will not have sexual relations because of a preference necessarily.

  173. #173 by tom on July 24, 2011 - 11:48 AM

    England losing wickets in a clatter. match alive!
    Its anybody’s game now

  174. #174 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 24, 2011 - 1:27 PM

    tom

    they lost 5 wickets but still 300 runs ahead, if the lead is 350 plus, it would be hard for India to win, so it is not anybody’s game, it is surely in favour of England. Tendulkar might score big but, can he win the match?

  175. #175 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 24, 2011 - 1:52 PM

    England 312 runs ahead with 4 wickets in hand, Prior is still there, 55 overs still remaining today with tomorrow’s full day unless it rains and England is slowly inching towards the target of 340-350 and mind you, if Sharma or Kumar can take wickets, then Tremlet, Anderson and Broad can also take wickets and playing seam bowling on the 5th day is not easy.

  176. #176 by tom on July 24, 2011 - 1:59 PM

    Javed

    youre right. Although India have done well, but not bringing Ishant back after lunch was strange. Maybe it had to do with Dhoni’s suspension due to over rate as commentators were mentioning. India need to bat very well from here onwards to save the game. winning seems remote as it looks a target of 400 is on cards. Tendulkar has to contribute but again as Sagaat says will it be a match winning or saving knock. Anyway match is entering into an decisive phase.

  177. #177 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 24, 2011 - 4:13 PM

    tom

    The target is 458 and it is impossible for India to win this match, all they can do is to play for a draw and perhaps this is the reason Dravid has been sent to open the innings so that early wickets falling would otherwise demoralize the team and if Dravid can hold one end, it is possible that they play for a draw. 80% chances are India will lose and 20% they will draw the match.

  178. #178 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 4:13 PM

    This match sounds like a draw, considering that Broad made 74 and Prior made a century. The famed Indian batting line-up should see through this one.

    I am surprised Ghambir hasn’t been sent to open, and in place they have sent Dravid.

  179. #179 by Bichoo on July 24, 2011 - 4:38 PM

    Gambhir is not opening because he is injured, he has gone to the hospital for x-ray after being hit on the body fielding at short leg. Sachin cannot bat until 1 hour and 20 into tomorrow since he was off the field while he himself went to hospital for viral fever. Half of Indian team is unfit and need an ambulance near by. Then there are some useless bowlers like Bhajji. Poor prep for such a high profile series, and 95% chance for them to lose this test according to me.

  180. #180 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 4:45 PM

    Bichoo,

    There is Dravid and there is Laxman. I think these two are tough players to get out. I think the match is 60-40, with 60 percent chance that England will win. If you remember once Abdul Razzaq and Kamran Akmal played out the whole 5th day in a test match in India. If India has 8-9 wickets tomorrow saving the match is no big deal. And, then, there is the prospect of rain in England.

  181. #181 by tom on July 24, 2011 - 5:26 PM

    Guys

    There is a 99% chance of India losing this match. Sagaat if Raina and dhoni are bowling then even Malinga and murali can notch a 50 partnership, whereas broad and Prior are quite competent with the bat. Bichoo is right in questioning prepartion for this series. I am not trying to belittle Munkund but why Yuvraj is not playing. his left arm spin bothers pietersen. Even fate has conspired against india and Zaheer, Gambhir and sachin are unfit alongwith initial injury of Viru. It seems the match and India’s no1 ranking are both gone.
    It would require a herculean effort from Sachin, Raina, Dravid and Laxman to save this match. At least 2 century partnerships which gobble 70 odd overs are required.

  182. #182 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 5:41 PM

    Tom,

    The great wall of India seems impenetrable today. I am sure Tendulkar and Ghambir would later come out to bat. But I think this has worked in India’s advantage. It is just my personal opinion but their best pressure players this way would be spending the most amount of time at the crease. That Laxman and Dravid have been promoted up the order bodes well for a draw. It will probably go down to the wire, but with 9 wickets remaining and just a day to bat, I think a draw would be the more likely outcome.

  183. #183 by Konquest on July 24, 2011 - 6:03 PM

    Sagaat

    Agree with you there. Laxman and Dravid can bat five days if they are pushed to the brink. If they are dismissed early tomorrow, I think India might have problems but if they can survive the morning session, the match will be a draw.

  184. #184 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 6:04 PM

    India 80-1 at the end of day’s play. Interesting final day tomorrow.

  185. #185 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 6:09 PM

    Khansahab,

    Yes, the two of them together have made a lot of runs in the past. If they play out the first session, then it will probably be a draw.

  186. #186 by tom on July 24, 2011 - 6:13 PM

    Sagaat

    I honestly hope you are correct. It is imperative that these two stay together till lunch at least. Apparently, Swann seems to be the most threatening bowler now due to deterioration of the track and these two play spin quite well. India do need a little luck also as injuries have really hurt them. Well India live to fight another day; lets see how things unfold tomorrow

  187. #187 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 6:14 PM

    Tom,

    I am surprised you support India. If you don’t mind me asking, are you Australian?

  188. #188 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 6:24 PM

    Konquest,

    I can’t understand how , without a preference for women, a man could ask his girlfriend to sleep with another woman? That is like saying that your girlfriend may ask you to sleep with another guy? You obviously wouldn’t do that for reasons but you might do that as a matter of preference. I am not suggesting that you prefer so, I am just highlighting that without preferences it is hard for me to imagine how sexual acts can take place?

  189. #189 by Konquest on July 24, 2011 - 7:59 PM

    Sagaat

    What I said was that, a woman will not sleep with another woman (normally) because of a preference for sleeping with women, if her boyfriend/husband wants her to do it. Her reason will be that her man wanted her to do it- she will not do it because of having a preference for women over men.

    It is more likely a man will want his partner to do that, as opposed to a woman wanting to do that by her own accord.

  190. #190 by tom on July 24, 2011 - 8:38 PM

    No sagaat, it has nothing to do with nationality. Actually i had a bet with my friend. he felt that England wwas favourite while my view was that India would prevail due to its WC success and victory in last series in England. BTW, whats wrong with supporting India? its sport and one can support any team! I dont take preferences too seriously although iam engrossed with the game and love it but everybody has a right to support any team due to any reason. Thats why i was hoping for your assessment to come true although my mind still says that India will have one bad session tomorrow and it would be curtains.

    I was thinking how much the balance of power in cricket has changed. First it was the West Indians, then Australia and now India no1 with England and South Africa being contenders. If someone would have claimed in 90′s that around 2010 an England – India series would decide No1 team in test cricket, no one would have believed. Pakistan had the potential to be no1 but politics,match fixing and poor management ruined whatever potential was there. India, England and South Africa look likely to share the first three positions for a couple of years.

  191. #191 by Sagaat on July 24, 2011 - 9:15 PM

    Tom,

    I asked because I thought you obviously wouldn’t be English, whereas as an Australian supporting India would mean supporting the lesser of the two evils :P

    I understand what you mean with your love for the game. It resonantes with us, and we’ve been blogging about cricket since quite awhile.

    India is the number 1 but as you point, not as dominant as West Indies or Australia at their peak. In fact neither of India, England, and SA seem completely dominant on paper. This series would be a good glimpse as regards to the number one position and whether one team is indeed dominant compared to the rest. Besides, the famed Indian batting line-up will retire in a couple of years and India will go through a transition period like Australia. In the near term all teams are competitive, as the WI -India series showed.

  192. #192 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 24, 2011 - 9:16 PM

    The way Mukund was playing shots, I had a feeling that he will not survive long and that Broad got him eventually. Well, Dravid and Laxman are there but, on the 5th day reportedly the wicket supports swing bowling. If these two are gone before lunch then India is bound to lose, Sachin‘s second innings record is not that great and he is down with a viral fever, Gambhir is injured, I have no faith in Raina in test matches, so Dhoni has play an innings of his life time to save the match. So far, Dhoni hasn’t done any wonders he is simply lucky that’s all.

  193. #193 by Konquest on July 24, 2011 - 10:47 PM

    Sagaat

    I have edited my previous comment- I missed a word there, however the meaning must have carried through. These days my mind cannot focus on things and I am not reading my comments once I have typed them up.

  194. #194 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 25, 2011 - 3:07 AM

    tom

    you are right I should have asked you and I am sorry for revealing that info, I have deleted my comments. On our blog almost everyone with the exception of newguy has not revealed their place of residence or his name and that is his prerogative and we respect that and so will we do the same in your case. I have no secrets about me and when I used to write on pakspin 5 years ago I used to write my real name which is still the same, but over there I used to add Montreal after my name just to show that despite living in a city where there is no cricket, I am a very enthusiastic cricket fan from this part of the world. When I wrote that comment it did not occur to me that you will feel offended hence I apologize once again.

  195. #195 by Bichoo on July 25, 2011 - 12:08 PM

    Both Dravid and Laxman are out, and so in Gambhir, the writing on the wall is clear, England to complete a huge win, possibly between lunch and tea. I don’t see Tendulkar scoring big. As for Raina, Dhohi, and Chuckbhajan, the less said the better. England was the better team in this test and they are the only team that showed a desire to win.

    From the WI tour, in fact, ever since Dhoni won world cup, he has shown the lackluster attitude to go through the motions and not show intent to win games.

    Much is being written about Dhoni and his attitude in this test. With the opposition looking to score quick, he chose to bowl and let Dravid keep wickets especially when Dravid also had to open innings soon after. His arrogance and lack of respect for the game and a legend like Dravid is appalling.

    I am sure in post match conference Dhoni will defend everything and will go on with his arrogant attitude, since he knows he won’t be replaced soon.

    Pathetic team performance and captaincy for a team ranked #1 and defending it against a team that really badly wants to take it away from them.

  196. #196 by Sagaat on July 25, 2011 - 12:53 PM

    146-4. The match could still be saved. Maybe this is Tendulkar’s day? I am not saying it is probable, but it is possible that the match could be saved.

  197. #197 by Sagaat on July 25, 2011 - 12:57 PM

    Plumb lbw of Tendulkar not given by Bowden! Certainly, one decision can change the outcome of the match.

  198. #198 by Bichoo on July 25, 2011 - 5:02 PM

    As expected India lost by a huge margin of 198 runs, and as expected Dhoni came to post match ceremony and gave his excuses. He said “considering we lost Zaheer on first morning, and it was not spinning for Harbhajan, and we lost Sachin to viral fever, and we lost Gambhir due to injury, blady blah blah, we are happy Bunch of lame excuses for a #1 ranked team that came under prepared with their prime fast bowler showing up less than match fit and hiding it, and Chuckbhajan can’t do one thing right, Dhoni himself played lame and his captaincy was uninspiring. He reminds me of Younus Khan who always comes to post match meetings losing match after match but still go on laughing and joking about how the boys are improving.

    The convenient excuses are lined up, but this time I don’t see them bouncing back unlike in SA. One reason, this England team looks well grounded, and they are not willing to take it for granted, but work hard to beat India and get to the #1 ranking. India has their work cut out. Good times for Dhoni has ended, time to face music.

  199. #199 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 25, 2011 - 5:05 PM

    The bottom line is, India has lost the match with a big margin and Tendulkar played one of the worst innings, his 90 minutes stay with only 12 runs at a strike rate of 17 shows how scared he was, that is not expected from a great player like him and this is not the first time, it happened before, but because of Tendulkar’s mammoth records such incidents get obscured and hidden behind is achievements. Dhoni has once again disappointed.

  200. #200 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 25, 2011 - 5:20 PM

    LOL @ Chuckbhajan

  201. #201 by Sagaat on July 25, 2011 - 5:32 PM

    Tendulkar was also given not out when clearly plumb and an easy catch was dropped. It shows that pressure shows on Tendulkar in test matches.

  202. #202 by Bichoo on July 25, 2011 - 5:34 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Yeah, totally lackluster innings from Tendulkar, and his support base will have it already covered up with nice excuses. Viral fever is no excuse for playing lame like he did today, it was totally out of character, showed that he was under pressure and did not know exactly how to play. It seems like he tried to play the anchor like Dravid, but he is not Dravid as much as Dravid is no Tendulkar. Dravid can play like that leaving ball after ball and defending, because it is his style of play and he will not get out, and he will not be under pressure, but the bowlers are the ones who will be under pressure.

    Here Tendulkar should have attacked, or played his natural game, instead he went into a shell and lost it. Raina played much better than that today.

    But anyway, due credit to England bowlers, they kept the pressure up and did not let the famed Indian batting lineup draw it.

  203. #203 by Bichoo on July 25, 2011 - 5:35 PM

    The fact that Tendulkar cannot handle pressure has to be accepted now, since it has happened far too many times. But I think his support base will always cover it up.

  204. #204 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 25, 2011 - 5:40 PM

    tom

    Why are you making so much fuss especially since I have apologized twice in that comment. Also, I’ve deleted my earlier 2 comments which revealed your secret information and secret location! I thought you will accept my apologies with an open heart instead you are cringing and whining and making a mountain out of a mole hill by giving me a long BHASHAN on ethics and morality. First of all tom is not your real name and even if it is, there is a population of 170 million in that country do you think anyone would go searching for tom like you are OBL ? The reason I edited my comment was because, I wanted to mention the country and not the city besides, I am not that naive not to know about fixed domains and changing domains or proxy servers. So, please don’t say that I am not sure, if you want then I will get you more details. So, just leave it here and move on.

    On our blog there is a page for our bloggers called MEMBERS INTERVIEW and it is for them to write something about themselves and one of the regular bloggers Munir has written about his background and profession, location, preferred players etc. etc… There is nothing secret about our blog, we are very transparent and almost all our bloggers have mentioned about their location, profession etc., in fact in some cases we have asked the new bloggers, what are you doing in Australia? Or. South Africa etc. And, they told us here on the main page that I am a doctor, the other said, he is a businessman etc., etc. and no one ever felt so weary like you. I think I shouldn’t have apologized to you in the first place and leave you cribbing and cringing, on other blogs no body really cares about how a blogger feels, here we are like a family and we do care But, now in your case, I think it really doesn’t matter to me if you feel bad or sad or, stay with us or go, it is up to you.

  205. #205 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 25, 2011 - 5:54 PM

    Bichoo

    A couple of days ago, someone was telling me (I want all our bloggers to check and reconfirm this news) that a couple of weeks ago, Shahid Afridi told GEO news or GEO TV “Unn (Indians) say kaho kay wo shukar kerain kay hum nay unko WC jita diya”

    I said, first of all I am not watching TV since the last 4 months, in fact I have not even switched it on and not following any news. Secondly, I doubt that Shahid Afridi would have said such a thing. Because, someone from our blog especially Konquest would have written it here, so I guess this is a rumour, that person did not say he saw it, but he said, no, it was on TV and there was a long discussion on it. Then he went on adding that Gillani was called by Manmohan Singh and he was told, that if you go to Bombay we cannot guarantee your safety. Once again I doubt this statement. But, he insisted that Gillani, Rahman Malik and others pressurized Afridi and other senior players to lose the semifinal. OTherwise, it would be a big security problem. So, he insisted that this info is correct. I still don’t believe him and that is why asking here if anyone has heard that news or seen it on TV?

  206. #206 by Konquest on July 25, 2011 - 7:20 PM

    India needs to get over this mental block of too much reliability on senior players. In the past it was all about SRT- if he didn’t score the entire team looked like minnows and lost confidence.

    Similarly now if Zaheer Khan becomes unfit the team will lose confidence.

    Shocking performance by SRT- viral infection or no infection- he should have played the anchor role here. He hit a brilliant century the day after his father died, many years ago. If he can do that then a viral infection ought not to deter him. His pressure handling skills have been exposed.

    Having said that, whenever people start criticising SRT for playing slow or crumbling under pressure, he bounces back very strongly. If history is anything to go by, then there is a century by SRT somewhere around the corner.

    Ishant, Parveen and Zaheer are not better than Anderson, Tremlett and Broad. But Swann is much better than Harbhajan. This is the difference in the bowling of the two teams. Batting wise India is stronger on paper, however England batsmen are in good form- Prior, Pieterson and Trott will score runs. So overall I think England is the slightly better team.

  207. #207 by Konquest on July 25, 2011 - 7:24 PM

    Tom

    There is no need to get so emotional man. It is all good- forget what happened and enjoy the LS culture because you will not find this kind of an environment anywhere else on the internet.

  208. #208 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 25, 2011 - 11:06 PM

    Jerry was right that you are a crybaby and you crib a lot and that’s in your nature to do that, which is also very obvious from your writings and the way you present yourself. I am glad that you showed us what you are in the very beginning so it is good that you are leaving. I would also like to bid a farewell to you and when you wrote: Farewell in Shakespearean style, I thought that farewell was like a real farewell and I said, good riddance to cribbers but, you are back again to crib a little more. please don’t bother posting your personal nagging and whining here anymore……. kapish Aly?

  209. #209 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 25, 2011 - 11:17 PM

    Konquest, this is the first Pakistani I have come across who is ashamed of being and calling himself a Pakistani and I really don’t understand the need to be so secretive and deceptive about oneself. In good faith without giving any explanation I apologized straightaway and that is being considered as my weakness perhaps that is my mistake in apologizing and not in telling that he is from Pakistan. The pathetic thing is, the cribbing is unstoppable and unending. Some people don’t deserve niceties and apologies and I have also learned something from this incident, so next time I will be careful in apologizing, I will have to see who deserves apologies and who deserves to be ignored. Anyways, you don’t have to pursue him to stay, if he stays (which is very likely he will without even your pursuing him because, he is an attention seeker and yet, he wants to be secretive) he will always be cribbing and that is his nature and that is unfortunately his kismet too.

  210. #210 by Bichoo on July 26, 2011 - 2:36 AM

    Javed Khan,

    I have not read or heard about the what you quoted as Afridi said. But I am familiar with the Pakistani psyche by now that if and when Pakistan lose a match to India, especially a very important one like a WC semi or a final, then everyone including supporters, players, and administrators goes into a denial mode of admitting they were beaten. Instead they will try to marginalize Indian win and instead claim they lost the match by giving it up. I have heard to too often, especially the WC semi.

    Fact, however is that apart from an excellent individual piece of brilliance from Wahab Riaz, rest of Pakistan team contributions were pretty ordinary. In other words even though the margin of victory looked small in the overall end state of game because of Misbah scoring those worthless runs in end, Pakistan lost the game halfway through the chase.

    Rest is all conspiracy theories. Pakistan was good, but they simply were not good enough to beat India that day. It’s all water under the bridge now. Why did you bring it up now?

  211. #211 by Pawan on July 26, 2011 - 1:12 PM

    Pathetic display from Indian team @ Lords. First innings after Zaheer was hamstrung, it felt like the Indian team had given up any hopes of winning the match – they were just praying that they draw the match. Pathetic, absolutely pathetic. Agreed Zaheer is the kingpin and the main lead bowler, but what are others doing? The other bowlers have not just come to have free lunch, have they? Particularly pathetic display from Harbhajan. He was much more effective when Kumble was in competition. Agreed Swann didn’t get many wickets either and yeah, I know this is not a spinners paradise. But its been a while since Harbhajan proved himself as a lead spin bowler. Especially when you don’t have the luxury of using more than one specialist spin bowler, his performance was way below par. There is no doubt in my mind, he has to be dropped. Ishant Sharma bowls according to his mood. If he is in the mood to pitch up the deliveris and get the batsman playing (which non-demented bowlers will do) then he is a great bowler. But somehow he got back to his demented state in first innings, when the ball was swinging the most. He decided to give the batsman some chance and not pitch it up. Especially to KP, he bowled as if, he was giving batting practice to KP – way outside off and preying on KP’s patience. The moment he pitched up the deliveries, he got great returns. This has been going on for many years now, I hope he learns soon, otherwise, its time to look for someone else with some head on his shoulders. Praveen Kumar is so slow, reminds me of Irfan Pathan (after he was Chappel strung). At least he bowls good line and length. But he MUST increase his pace, otherwise he is just not good enough.

    Batting-wise, hopeless. I don’t know when these retards will understand the value of their wicket. Dhoni especially, could have saved the match, there is no doubt in my mind. He has become complacent. It is time to do something about this. Even Laxman, the great. This great guy never wakes up early. For him first innings is a warm up match practice. Only second innings he plays. That too because he wants to show that look I played where everyone else failed. What rubbish. He has had too many casual dismissals lately and his casual attitude reflects that. Abhinav Mukund is clearly short of talent to deal with at international level. Mr. Srikanth, the chief selector, must start picking a side for India and not just for Tamilnadu. He persisted with the retard Vijay way too long and now he is doing the same with Mukund. He has reportedly also included his son in India A side, who has come in without any domestic performances. Hopeless. I am also disappointed with Gambhir. He was clearly lacking match practice, which is only his own doing. Had he not been greedy and rested himself after WC by not playing in IPL, he would have easily played in West Indies, got some test form back, captained the side, and done well here in England. But he too fell prey to the greed. Disappointing. To me the batsman who at least tried hard were Dravid, Raina, and Tendulkar. Especially Dravid and Tendulkar – they must be looked upon as to how to put a high price tag on your wicket. Raina is new and has to learn how to handle the short ball. He is still not comfortable.

    Fielding was even worse. When you cannot bowl or bat as well as the opposition (given the conditions), only way you can show the world that you do want to win this match is by your attitude in field. Catches were dropped like a bunch of school girls. What is the fielding coach doing? Its been a while we saw good fielding from this side. Its time to get some real good fielding coach, not someone like Robin Singh, who will just sit an chat with the team.

  212. #212 by Bichoo on July 26, 2011 - 2:02 PM

    Pawan,

    You pin pointed a lot of issues with Indian team in the Lord’s test. All are very good observations. At the same time, it is coming off from the angle of an emotional supporter who is frustrated at Indians giving away one more opening test to opposition on a platter. Granted, this is very frustrating and hard to accept for fans. But sometimes we must accept realities as they are and stand aside as objective analysts. Especially when there are far too many emotional people everywhere including those so called professionals from both England and India each praising their sides.

    Reasons for India’s lose was there for all to see after the tour game, they looked woefully unprepared for a tour like this. So many big players chose not to tour WI, some for their own choice and some were injured. Again the injury was due to IPL. Let’s for forget BCCI’s role in all this. It’s not all players fault when BCCI schedules IPL just one week after World Cup has ended, and it goes on for two months, taking a toll on players.

    Take Sehwag and Yuvraj for instance, two of the big impact players from World Cup, can we imagine where India would have been in WC without them? They had such huge impact. But then they were let loose in IPL and it caused injury. People of India need to ask, is IPL the correct preparation for a Test tour of West Indies and England?

    I am not convinced that neither BCCI or the people of India consider Test matches as the top priority game. Indians never have taken a keen interest in Test matches. I mean, majority of them that form the market anyway. People like you and me, and few other people who really understand Test cricket are exceptions. We are not the market

    There is a lot of history here. I cannot write all that in a blog. But Indians in mass took cricket because of ODI format, and now the T20 format. They were never fans of Test cricket. England and Australia traditionally were always serious about Test cricket and because of this they develop and nurture the game.

    Fact is: India has never nurtured this format of the game. Indians want quick fun and quick result. It’s not exactly wrong to think that way. But just pointing out their priorities. Dhoni himself do not enjoy Test cricket as much as he does ODI. You can see this from his body language in both formats of the game.

    Coming back to some of the points you raised:

    1. England had a perfect match. Broad delivered, which was a bonus. They had huge concerns with him, but he came and delivered.
    2. KP delivered. It was a bonus. He also hadn’t done well before. It helped that India was without their strike bowler.
    3. Any team losing their strike bowler will struggle. Imagine, South Africa without Steyn. England without Anderson. Australia without McGrath.
    4. All of the bowlers above are impact players. Without Anderson delivering on 5th day with 5 top order wickets, India would have drawn.
    5. Ishant did bowl well given his in experience. He did well in WI and he is doing the support role. Imagine Broad being asked to be strike bowler and Anderson off the field.
    6. There is a huge difference when you are a support bowler and taking wickets vs. when you are asked to be the main bowler. I won’t blame Ishant.
    7. Praveen cannot have any more pace than he got. He is doing his best. Again he is only a support bowler.
    8. BCCI and Selectors should have made sure Zaheer is fully fit and match ready. Instead, they let him off the hook to do whatever he was doing.
    9. Zaheer looked like he had a good vacation and put of lot of weight. He wasn’t preparing for the Test series. Shows that player is let off the hook they do their own thing.
    10. ECB plans well ahead these days for important tours. They take care of players. BCCI do not.

    India may bounce back. Although this time, I don’t see that happening. England have done lot of preparation and they look hungry for success and all are very fit. Morale is high and they are mentally strong. India will struggle to win a test in this series. You don’t expect to turn in one fine day in England with a bunch of overweight players after a vacation and start competing with a team that was planning for this series all summer. Again, it’s all because of BCCI taking IPL more importance than Test cricket.

  213. #213 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 26, 2011 - 2:47 PM

    I am not convinced that neither BCCI or the people of India consider Test matches as the top priority game. Indians never have taken a keen interest in Test matches. I mean, majority of them that form the market anyway. People like you and me, and few other people who really understand Test cricket are exceptions. We are not the market…..……. bichoo You have said that as the bottom line of your comment and I reiterate and echo your words that the market is IPL and the majority of the people love 20/20 format, and even ODI is boring for them unless it is a big event like the WC or India/Pakistan contest.

  214. #214 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 26, 2011 - 2:54 PM

    Bichoo, I agree with you on conspiracy theories but, this guy who told me is not a blabber, pretty serious type and when he said that, I thought I may have missed out a headline, because of not watching TV or not reading any newspaper for the last so many months. If this was on GEO Konquest would have mentioned something or, even Sagaat and the reason I asked you because, Indian newspapers would have published this news as headlines. So, I guess this guy is misinformed and for me it is very hard to believe that Akhroat is such an idiot that he would blab such a thing, although you can expect anything from his mouth and bat still it was hard to believe. Anyways, thanks for replying……. Why did I bring it up now? I told you that 3 days ago this guy shocked me with this news and we was kinda 100% sure and I mentioned the reasons that I have not been watching TV or reading news on the internet for so many months.

  215. #215 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 26, 2011 - 2:58 PM

    For the one who cries so much and keeps threatening mai, jaa reha hoon, mai jaa reha hoon laikin jaata vaata kaheen nahee sirf shore muchata hai, he should remember what I said b4

    jo garajtay hain vo barastay nahee
    jo bhonktay hain vo kaat tay nahee

    Agar rickshay ka kiraya chahiyeh tou hum day denge. :D Now, please spare us from ur cribbing b4 u are gagged.

  216. #216 by Bichoo on July 26, 2011 - 3:22 PM

    Javed Khan,

    I do not follow any Indian newspapers, TV, or publications. So I wouldn’t know if they said anything.

  217. #217 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 26, 2011 - 3:35 PM

    bichoo yar, it is ok, it is not that important anyways, thanks for taking the time out in answering.

    I can imagine how you guys must be feeling after India’s defeat yesterday, actually the writing was on the wall loud and clear on the 4th day but, a lot of ifs and buts were being considered but, for that the team needs to be hungry, at the moment the Indian team is not looking hungry. The need one good batting performance from two three other players besides what Dravid has shown to them, that it is possible if you apply yourself.

  218. #218 by Pawan on July 26, 2011 - 5:42 PM

    Bichoo/Javed Khan

    It is a sad day for Indian cricket. I am not writing an obituary yet, but what you guys have pointed out makes sense 100%
    If the biggies of Indian test cricket like Dravid, Laxman and Tendulkar cannot save the match, then only heavens can save us
    I am bitterly disappointed with this performance. They looked like a goat ready to kill.
    I am not being emotional or senti-mental, but this kind of performance has to be flayed.
    In every commentary session, whenever Gavaskar came to comentary, he mentioned it to the openers
    that they gotto stop their habit of pushing at the ball.
    That is so so elementary and is being repeatedly pointed out by Gavaskar from Windies tour.
    Mukund is a master of pushing and Vijay was his senior partner in Windies.

    I want to ask Mr. Srikant, how many fast bowlers, forget genuine pace, even decent pace bowlers has his team of selectors unearthed during his tenure?
    What are their plans? Praveen Kumar the best bowler in the first innings was so slow that it looked as if they gifted their wickets away out of sympathy.
    I don’t agree with this notion of lead bowler. When you are picked for the team, you have to perform.
    Broad was a much better bowler than Anderson in first innings because his aXX was on fire as he knew if he doesn’t perform he will be kicked out next match
    There must be such kind of competition for Indian bowlers too.
    Look who we have to replace the current bowling line up?
    Khujli wala bandar – Sree Santh – talks more than he can chew – utter nonsense bowler
    God knows Who – Abhimanyu Mithun – please teach him some variation – again another mediocre selection from Mr. Srikanth
    Nehra? Balaji? IPL king R P Sing?

    These are genuine, deep rooted problems.
    Good, we got exposed in first test and we will be during the series (unless the big 3 step up)
    Lets wait and watch.

  219. #219 by Bichoo on July 26, 2011 - 5:58 PM

    Pawan,

    Relax. You are reading too much into one match. It’s only sports, and it’s for entertainment. You win some and you lose some. England is a very good Test team, and it’s not a shame losing to a team that played better. Especially in their home conditions at the current form they are as good as Indians are in India. I don’t expect England team to beat this Indian team in India, instead their bowlers will be made mince meat of, and their batting will be spun out. But over here in current form the opposite applies.

    As for the Indian team composition, this is the same team, with similar kind of players, that has been winning Test matches. There is nothing new. Indians like to take the first test as practice match. It’s a rather poor approach, but that’s what they do. Sreesanth delivered some crucial blows in South Africa, so he is not worthless. Same for Ishant. Praveen took a 5-fer at Lords, and he can only improve.

    Nottingham and Birmingham assist swing and seam, Test matches do not last more than 4 days in both venues, Indians do well when there is assistance from the pitch. I expect them to do better than they did in first test and series goes on.

    But, in the end, Test matches are not seriously followed in India by the masses. IPL and T/20 is the market, because most Indian cricket followers do not really understand the game, they just like Sixes and Fours. Compared to English and Australians cricket followers.

  220. #220 by Bichoo on July 26, 2011 - 6:12 PM

    Pawan,

    One more thing I will point out regarding the Indian psyche. I remember India winning the 1983 World Cup, and that is the first time Indians in mass took a liking to this sports. Until then it was Hockey that was the national sports. Even in Hockey there was so much mis-management and they were losing position. I remember people telling Cricket is one game we can win at the world stage, so let’s focus on that. This is the short sighted Indian approach. Similar approach happens to England in ODI, they are crap in that format, having never won any major titles, but in Tests they were always competent somewhat.

    Fast forward to T20. The inaugural T20 WC win propelled Indian like for the T20 game. Before then they were not very keen on this, as India hardly played this game. It’s only when Indian team wins in one format that Indians in mass start taking on the game.

    If you recall, prior to the Test #1 ranking, there wasn’t much interest in Indian Test wins or even arranging Test series. After that they have taken a keen interest. The media also hype up a lot, so the average person believes everything said on the TV.

    If India lose the #1 ranking and go down to #3 or #4 in a few years, interest in Test cricket will also die in India. Mark my words. Crowds are short sighted, so administrators and players go with the flow. You cannot always blame the players and administrators alone, they serve the market, and the market is fickle.

    Not only in cricket, there is much more, but to repeat myself, I cannot write all that in a blog.

  221. #221 by Bichoo on July 26, 2011 - 6:22 PM

    Pawan,

    I know you probably haven’t had time to read my previous posts, and I am belting them out so quickly. But this will be last of my three for a while, I promise :)

    You blamed Praveen Kumar and said he was gifted wickets. Pace is not required to get wickets. Did you notice that PK bowled 40 overs in England first innings for 106 runs and picked up 5 wickets. The more experienced bowlers, Bhajji and Ishant between them share 500+ Test wickets, they gave away 280 runs in 70 overs. Mostly Pieterson feasted on the crap they served.

    PK stood up after Zaheer did a crime to the team by walking in unfit and then leaving on the first morning of a 5 day match. Bhajji and Ishant gave no support.

  222. #222 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 26, 2011 - 6:25 PM

    Pawan

    LOL at khujli wala bander my friend, you have forgotten Munna Bhai Palkiwala Patel, he is another medium fast spinner in the team, as long as he is getting wickets he is smiling and the moment he gets thrashed he yells at the fielders instead of cursing himself for bowling bad. And, I agree with you about the notion of main strike bowler, you are right that when you are selected for the national team, you have to be as good as the other.

    And, you don’t have to be Gavaskar to tell the batsmen not to push the ball, remember when Mukund was out in the second innings, I wrote here that the way Mukund was playing shots he was bound to get out.

  223. #223 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 3:08 AM

    Bichoo

    It is a shame losing any game against any opposition. It is never an honor.
    Cricket has reached its crescendo and its not just an entertainment.
    These guys are not paid peanuts. They are expected to do well.
    I, along with many, have watched this game, some even at the cost of losing their working time.
    Obama has gone on record to say that his country loses 10% workability when Sachin Tendulkar is playing.
    The performance of Indian cricket team affects the psyche of billions of Indians across the globe.
    This is no longer just a sport.

    This Indian team looks to me very unfit, so as to speak.
    Look at Zaheer Khan. He came into this match with a rather obvious looking waistline.
    And now he will not be playing the 2nd test match.
    Bandar won us the match in SA with his antics, I doubt he will repeat it here.
    I will be more than glad if he proves me wrong.
    But he is a lucky draw kinds. Some days he will be bowling superbly, other days total crap.

    I dont agree with that notion of test matches not being followed by masses
    Just tell me when was the last time a test match was played in India and it wasn’t a full house?
    People in India do not have much to do – they just want something to waste their time over.
    Cricket is the perfect medium.
    You go to any shop, chaiwala, panwala, hotel, stores in India, they will be watching the test on TV.
    Before the advent of TV, the work-force in India used to listen to radio – at that time there was no IPL/ODIs

  224. #224 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 3:11 AM

    Bichoo

    Cricket, be it test/ODI/T20 will never die in India.
    Like I mentioned in my previous post, people used to listen to radio commentary when there was no TV.
    At that time Indian team wasn’t even close to being # 1.
    Show me a period when grounds in India weren’t packed with people for test cricket.
    The fact is, Indian public has lots of time to waste.
    So they can afford to watch every single ball.

  225. #225 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 3:18 AM

    Bichoo

    PK’s case is like andho mein langda shana
    He got five wickets but only after England had made about 500 declared, not even all out.
    That is why I said, it looked as if they gave away wickets out of sympathy.
    As it is he looks complete unprofessional with beard and shirt out. Typical.

    Bhajji is a spent force.
    The moment he changed his action after that historic Ind-Aus series, he lost his mojo.
    He should be dropped.
    Play Amit Mishra, he is a leg spinner, an attacking bowler, a hungry person.
    Also Eng team doesn’t much like leg spinners – remember Shane Warne?
    Bhajji is mentally so down, that even Raina might bowl better than him.

    Zak should not be played, even if he is fit to play the 2nd test.
    He should be given physical conditioning and should be made match fit, before he plays his next match.
    I would rather prefer that Bandar.

  226. #226 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 3:23 AM

    Javed,

    Yeah, I had completely forgotten about the Munafa.
    Pietersen and co. can even have a quick bite before ball finally arrives when Munaf bowls.
    They might even stand mid-pitch.

    Even Kumble was faster than him.
    Shame on him to call himself a fast bowler.
    Guys like him should be forced to retire.

  227. #227 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 3:59 AM

    Pawan

    That was then, there was no choice except to listen to the radio and even that was a big thing for a few. But, times have changed, people have changed, tastes, choices etc., has changed and once they taste Kalaqand they don’t like luddoo, so people like the shorter version of the game whether we accept it or not, it is a fact. And, I agree with you on PK as andhaon may kana Raja and Bhajji lost his mojo, they should look for some real quality spinners and not Piyush Munna Chawala. There has to be someone after Kumble who can be a threat to the opposition like the famous trio, Chandrashekar, Erapally Prasanna and Venkataraghavan unfortunately in those days Indian batting was lacking and there were no fast bowlers, the only one I can reckon is Ramakant Desai that little man who threatened another little man Hanif Mohammad other than Hanif who was his bunny Ramakant was a useless guy. Even Kapil Dev was not a real fast bowler. India’s strength has always been their batting.

  228. #228 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 3:59 AM

    Pawan

    That was then, there was no choice except to listen to the radio and even that was a big thing for a few. But, times have changed, people have changed, tastes, choices etc., has changed and once they taste Kalaqand they don’t like luddoo, so people like the shorter version of the game whether we accept it or not, it is a fact. And, I agree with you on PK as andhaon may kana Raja and Bhajji lost his mojo, they should look for some real quality spinners and not Piyush Munna Chawala. There has to be someone after Kumble who can be a threat to the opposition like the famous trio, Chandrashekar, Erapally Prasanna and Venkataraghavan unfortunately in those days Indian batting was lacking and there were no fast bowlers, the only one I can reckon is Ramakant Desai that little man who threatened another little man Hanif Mohammad other than Hanif who was his bunny Ramakant was a useless guy. Even Kapil Dev was not a real fast bowler. India’s strength has always been their batting.

  229. #229 by Bichoo on July 27, 2011 - 4:18 AM

    Pawan,

    I agree on Zaheer fitness should have been a priority for team management. The reason India miss ZK very badly is because as you know, Zaheer is an extremely skillful bowler these days, and he could have made the difference of 200 runs that England made. In other words, if Zaheer was fully fit, the way he was bowling on the first day before his injury, he would have gotten KP or Trott for sure. Zaheer bowled 8 maidens in his 13 overs and took 2 wickets, he was virtually unplayable and making them guess every ball. Therefore it is not as easy as saying, strike bowler don’t matter, everyone has to be equal. Fact, is everyone is not equal. If that is the case then between Sehwag and Mukund should not matter, but this is not so.

    Again, I think team management, BCCI especially do not take this Test ranking business seriously, they just want to make as much money as possible.

  230. #230 by Bichoo on July 27, 2011 - 4:23 AM

    Pawan,

    Also, testimony to Zaheer’s skill is India’s WC win. He was joint highest wicket taker along with Afridi, and every time game looked like slipping away ZK came back and took wickets. Imagine winning WC without him. So, yes, India is too much dependent on Zaheer Khan, but it is like saying Autralia was too much dependant on McGrath at their peak. Granted Zaheer is no McGrath, but what McGrath was to Australia, Zaheer is to India. Without him playing in Nottingham, good luck to India bouncing back. I don’t see it happening.

  231. #231 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 1:19 PM

    Javed

    There is no doubt that India’s strength has always been their batting.
    But along with batting, like you pointed out, India’s spin department has been always strong.
    if you look at the current team, there is Harbhajan who is the main spinner.
    I don’t remember a time when the opposition was not afraid of Indian spinner, especially non-subcontinental.
    This time round, Harbhajan is treated like a novice and a nothing man by the English team
    Because they have Swann who obviously provides the off-spin practice and tricks to read it to his team mates
    But recently and amazingly, Harbhajans form has taken a dip and a significant one.

    I remember during the recent Windies tour, when I had the luxury to watch the matches
    someone in the commentary box pointed out that India’s recent (last two years)
    bowling exploits have been dominated by fast bowlers, and it is the fast bowlers who have taken most wickets.
    Now that statistics also included tests on Indian and Sri-Lankan wickets
    Not only that, the statistics was brought out only because Harbhajan
    couldn’t put the ball in right place on a spinners paradise on a Windies wicket.
    Now that is alarming, if not anything more.

    I remember when Kumble was playing along with Srinath
    There used to be 3 spinners on Indian tracks and just one fast bowler
    That time has gone it seems.
    In fact last time round, when India toured England,
    India played with Kumble and Harbhajan, simply because they were too good
    This time, Harbhajan’s form slump is affecting India very badly

    I vote for Harbhajan to be dropped and that will make a statement
    Also that will give the hungrier Mishra a chance to redeem himself
    Not to forget, that will also recharge Harbhajan

  232. #232 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 1:23 PM

    Bichoo

    You are right in pointing out that Zaheer has been the main bowler for India
    But what about Harbhajan?
    I don’t want to sound like I am after Harbhajan
    But now that you brought up the WC topic
    Look at what Harbhajan did in WC
    He is supposed to be a genuine spinner, unlike Afridi and bowling on home grounds

    Great teams always have bowlers bowl in partnership
    Wasim – Waqar
    Walsh – Ambrose
    McGrath – Warne

    A single main lead bowler cannot win you matches
    To back up Zaheer, we need a good spinner support
    Which Harbhajan is not providing
    I think India need a spin coach, someone like Mushtaq Ahmed
    Who does the job for England

  233. #233 by Bichoo on July 27, 2011 - 2:26 PM

    Pawan,

    I already said about Harbhajan, he is past his sell date and must be dropped pronto. But will we see that kind of ballsy decision from Indian think tank? I doubt it, they will give him another chance to redeem himself, he will take a couple of wickets and hit a few runs may be and then go on to book his place in team. This is the old India as well as Pakistan style of selection, guy who should be dropped will make one mediocre performance just enough to book his place again, and this will go on.

    But, I am hopeful the new Indian team is more ruthless about non-performers, who ever they are. Let’s see the team announcement.

    I do however disagree with you on Mishra, I am not sure he is that hungry for success, the only hunger I see in him is for food. He was clattered all over the park by Somerset club level players in the warm up, and let’s not forget he got chance in West Indies and he could not deliver. Mishra has now played enough Test matches and the evidence is there that he is not the answer. Mishra is may be better than Pappu Chawla, but that isn’t saying much.

    The answer is in four place attack. There is no point wasting one bowler in England. Especially when you want to win. Trentbridge is suited for pace bowling, where statistics show pacers have taken lions share of wickets. India should go with PK, Khujli wala Bandar, Munna Bhai, and Lamboo. With four pacers, England will not get chance to hit around, Munna Bhai is very accurate and will not give runs easily. He may not take many wickets, but he will tie the runs down. PK is also very economical and he swings the ball. Badar and Lamboo can hit the deck and swing the ball. This attack is better than one with a spinner.

    India must think out of the box, and use their better resources, which are their medium-fast bowlers. As much Munna Bhai has been called spinner by Michael Holding, heck he may be the best spinner available to India now. :)

  234. #234 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 2:56 PM

    Bichoo

    ZAK was joint highest wicket take with Afridi but, Afridi played one less match in the tournament than Zaheer.

  235. #235 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 2:58 PM

    Pawan

    I remember Sagaat was once saying that Harbhajan won’t be effective on England pitches and he is right. Bhajji can spin on the subcontinent pitches but, he hasn’t done anything in the WC, so I guess he is down the hill and needs a lot of effort to regain his old rhythm.

  236. #236 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 3:00 PM

    Bichoo

    I do agree with you on Mishra, and that is why yesterday I did not caste my vote in his favour when Pawan mentioned his name. As regards Munna I have also mentioned it many times that he is a spinner.

  237. #237 by Bichoo on July 27, 2011 - 3:49 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Agreed Afridi was joint highest wicket taker with one match less, but this isn’t a comparison of whether ZAK was best bowler in the tournament, it’s to showcase his impact on Indian team’s success. But, he did unprofessional thing of not taking care of his body and being match fit by playing first class games since the WC ended. Once again blame is on BCCI for not managing players properly. I still don’t see Indian media and Indian public getting outraged at BCCI for only seeking money. All the outburst and anger is always at the players and then on selectors somewhat, when in reality in any country the administration in the one that has to lay the framework. Other than hiring some high paid foreign coaches and building some training facilities, BCCI does very little in terms of player management. Take Cheteswar Pujara for instance, a young player with fine Test tempermant who should have toured West Indies and should be playing in England. One day he is expected to fill the #3 spot of Dravid, and he did make a very good impression in his debut series against Australia. He is injured from playing IPL and is missing out on these important tours that should be more important to his career. Instead, IPL is dominating Indian cricket. It’s the power of corporate India, money, power, and corruption from some powerful men like Ambani, Mallaya, so on .. are taking control of Indian cricket.

  238. #238 by Bichoo on July 27, 2011 - 4:03 PM

    Pawan / Javed,

    One more thing about IPL and the power and corruption it brings that people tend to miss is the sub-plot of transfer of wealth and control from the masses to the rich. Cricket used to be a middle class game, but now it is in control of the rich and powerful in the corporate and bollywood world. What happens when the money is flowing from masses lining up for IPL, and the sale of merchandise, TV rights, so on .. it flows to the coffers of the mega rich like Ambanis and Mallayas. Then it also flows to a few players that form the IPL. It’s a transfer of wealth from the middle class people, their discretionary income can spend on a number of things, but when they decide to spend it on a 3 hour game of IPL, it is flowing through to the already mega rich. What use is it to anyone? Ordinary Indians fail to see this. They think it’s a great thing that India has got IPL, so our young players can get some good money, but what about the middle class family that is spending their discretionary income on IPL tamasha. In the process they are prostituting cricket to the likes of Ambani and Mallaya who should have nothing to do with cricket. In the WC final, the camera was constantly panning to the VIP box where Ambanis, Aamir Khan, and Rajanikant were standing. For the most part, even the camera missed the expression of average Indian, instead they were focusing on the fake expressions of the so called VIPs.

    The power of cricket in India to grab the common man and subjugate him to the whim and fancies of those who control is cannot be underestimated, it is evident from the sight of Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul Gandhi sitting with common people for the India-Pak semi final game. They have nothing to do with cricket, and probably share no interest. The super rich and upper class in India never paid much attention to cricket, in fact they scoff at such middle class games. But they are there now because they know they can control the middle class pockets through this medium, and politicians want to be seen among their vote bank as sharing similar sentiments.

    Who is getting the shaft? The middle and lower income class people that waste their time watching cricket from their work hours.

    OK, enough off my rant. Now I will get off my soapbox :)

  239. #239 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 4:36 PM

    Bichoo

    That comparison was only to set the records straight and not about his unprofessional approach towards his health and fitness. Yar, almost every single bowler from the subcontinent has bad eating habits and when they do exercise it is only before the match sometimes they over do and get injured, there is no professional approach among any of the players. Remember Inzamam used to wear a t-shirt saying EAT, SLEEP AND GYM., Whenever they used to come to Sharjah, they all used to go to Delhi Nihari restaurant in Sharjah and Dubai and used to hog like there is no tomorrow and, tomorrow is supposed to be a match day and they are up till 3 a.m. in the morning. So, how do you expect them to be alert and match fit with only 4 hours of sleep?

    Zaheer, Sehwag, Tendulkar they are all food lovers, Tendulkar was quoted in Pakistani newspapers that the best food he ate in restaurants were in Karachi and Lahore and Balaji vouched it by saying, yes Sachin was right about it. Sachin is still more fit than others but, it is not just the Indian players but, the Pakistanis are also equally bad if not worst in terms of fitness.

  240. #240 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 5:02 PM

    Guys

    I disagree with you to have a 4-pronged pace attack (althought Munni is a spinner technically speaking)
    My point is

    1. English batsmen are traditionally weak against legspin
    2. Current English batsmen have hardly any practice against leg-spin and are not likely to get any
    3. Mishra was off-color in Windies test matches because he wasn’t given enough to bowl.
    He did very well in the ODI’s against Windies.
    4. Too much of pace will not present any variation.
    5. If 3 pace bowlers can’t get you wickets, what will Munni do? Instead rope in Mishra

  241. #241 by Bichoo on July 27, 2011 - 7:08 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Apart from those named, Yuvraj Singh is also a big food lover, as evidenced by the huge waistline he developed one time, this was before the WC. He was not able to move around in the field and were prone to injuries, then he lost in his place in the team, only after that he got the kick he needed to shed some weight, perform, and get back. Inzi is famous for his love for food, but he is a top order batsman, and Inzi is like Sehwag and Laxman in many ways, he has got his lazy elegance for batting, he doesn’t like running singles and doubles instead will stand there and hit fours. Zaheer should have been more responsible since India is very much dependent on him against England. He is not needed for a team like WI. What you said is true about all sub-continental players. I remember how Shoaib Akhtar put on pounds and lost his fitness. Asif used to smoke cigarettes, and this is a huge problem for a fast bowler, smoking will reduce his stamina, but still he did it. Compared to that English, Australian, and South Africans are always fit and toned, they obviously get the results for it.

  242. #242 by Pawan on July 27, 2011 - 7:24 PM

    Sehwag is one who has lost a lot of weight
    When he was dropped from the team
    He worked on his fitness, also running between the wickets
    Then he was joined by Gambhir
    Rest is history

    Right living can do wonders

  243. #243 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 7:53 PM

    Bichoo,

    LOL at comparing waistline with love of food. After all there is something called metabolism as well.

    In fact I would say that Punjabis, generally speaking, have a lower metabolism as evidenced by their larger waists unless they exercise and take care of themselves. On the other hand are the Urdu Speakers, or a type of gene in Pakistan that I have noticed, no matter what they eat they don’t gain weight. They are in fact very skinny and remain so regardless of what they eat. I think metabolism can explain these differences more than diet.

  244. #244 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 8:30 PM

    Zardari has appointed a new Foreign Minister called Hina Rabbani Khar, who hails from a feudal Punjabi family. She is 34 and has a degree in Hotel Management.

    This has been an extremely controversial decision because of her lack of experience and because she has replaced a juggernaut of a politician, Shah Mahmood Qureshi.

    She has visited India and most of the Indian public and media is smitten with her grace and physical appearance. On Youtube she has become something of a glamour symbol.

    I have heard this woman speak and I am not impressed. Poor decision by Zardari.

    This “democracy” has really destroyed Pakistan.

  245. #245 by Bichoo on July 27, 2011 - 8:36 PM

    Konquest,

    Yeah, I saw Rabbani, she is good looking, especially for a politician, and that explains the fixation of media. Previously too Foreign ministers from Pakistan has visited India, but I did not see TV cameras hovering them so much. I think this diplomacy exercise is all a stunt, nothing really happens.

  246. #246 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 8:39 PM

    Khansahab,

    Politics is a drama not worth discussing. Its all fixed who is going to become the prime minister, the president, etc…we are basically puppets watching this drama unfold, bickering with each other…everyone is handpicked for larger motives of those who run the show.

  247. #247 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 8:43 PM

    Bichoo

    I once saw some pictures of Pakistan’s Provincial Punjab Assembly and most of the women looked like glamour models.

    In my opinion, after Europe, the best looking females in the world are in Pakistan.

  248. #248 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 8:50 PM

    Khansahab,

    I barely see any good looking Punjabi women here. I don’t know what you are on about…?

    I think Rabbani is a Sindhi or Balochi last name, no? The reason being that it ends with the letters ani…?

  249. #249 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 8:52 PM

    Sagaat

    Agreed, but politics is linked to democracy, and real democracy is very important for any society. That is why, even though politics is such a dirty game, it is important that people in Pakistan discuss politics frequently and become more politically aware.

    Not like Pakistan where the 2% feudal class rules over 98% middle and lower class groups.

  250. #250 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 8:56 PM

    Khansahab,

    All this talk of democracy, even in the developed world, you’d wish it were true. But its the case everywhere that power in the hands of a few governs the rest. Its just that in the third world the powerful are a lot less powerfful than in the west, and their subjects, the rest, are also a lot poorer than the rest of the west.

  251. #251 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 8:57 PM

    Sagaat

    I can tell Hina R Khar is Punjabi just by looking at her face.

    But, Rabbani is a Punjabi surname in any event.

    “Usmani” also ends with “ani” but anyone can be an “Usmani”. I know what you mean though- Sindhi and Baloch names are like that.

  252. #252 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:00 PM

    Sagaat

    Yeah, true again, but the difference between the West and Pakistan is that in the former, the public is more politically aware and people have a social conscience.

    That is why, in the West, powerful people often don’t escape the clutches of the media and the courts. But in Pakistan they do.

  253. #253 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:02 PM

    Khansahab,

    But in any case she isn’t as good looking as the media is making her out to be. Nice color, nice hair, okay overall face, but the nose is a bit off– I don’t know, nothing exceptional.

    I think Usmani are just followers of Usman. A true last name which ends with ani would be Balochi I think. I wouldn’t be surprised if she Is Punjabi and still has Balochi roots.

  254. #254 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:04 PM

    Khansahab,

    People are politically aware in the west but what they don[‘t know is greater than what they don’t know in Pakistan. I have come to realize this– modern democracy is a sham, and history will be testament to this. This is not because of personal grudges, just based on the information that I am privy to.

  255. #255 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:06 PM

    Sagaat

    She is not beautiful, but that was not the point. The point I was making was that the Indian media is reacting to her like her looks are her only good attributes. And I think they are right.

    Rabbani- the name probably just means, followers of “Rab”, as in, God? There is also this politician called Raza Rabbani, he is also Punjabi.

  256. #256 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:08 PM

    Sagaat

    I think it is impossible for people to practise real democracy because then you will have a compromising, equal society. However the world is very different to that. In this world of scarce resources and unlimited wants and needs, some people have more and some people have less. Real democracy, equal rights of all, equal opportunities for all would mean that the division between rich and poor, powerful and powerless etc becomes narrower.

  257. #257 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:09 PM

    Khansahab,

    Possible that Rabbani means just that. I agree she looks all right but not great. Kind of like Sania Mirza.

  258. #258 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:09 PM

    Sagaat

    She is better than Sania Mirza man, come on. Better face, physique, better dressed too.

  259. #259 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:12 PM

    Sagaat

    You mentioned noses but most good looking Punjabi girls have odd, crooked noses. In Pakistan and India etc, people forgive odd noses, unless they are broad/wide, in which case it is considered unattractive in their society.

  260. #260 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:13 PM

    Khansahab,

    Technically speaking, democracy has nothing to do with the division of wealth, but all to do with the division of power. In practice it becomes quite different though. I don’t know what a real democracy looks like but what we think of “reality” in the west– it is indeed an illusion. Basically, secretive and advanced technologies here make sure how power is divided here, and they feed us the info through the media that they want us to know. We are, with these technologoies, puppets in the real sense of the word.

  261. #261 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:17 PM

    Sagaat

    Whatever system you have in the West, it is a lot better than Pakistan. In Pakistan the media has become very predatory and people boast about its freedom, but whenever free media is introduced in a country, the intial years are always very fruitful. However it is only a matter of time that even Pakistani media will be controlled by corporations, parties, think-tanks, focus groups etc.

  262. #262 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:17 PM

    Khansahab,

    There are good looking Punjabis as well, with straight noses and sharp features. I haven’t seen many here though. For some reason, the creame isn’t here.

  263. #263 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:19 PM

    Sagaat

    I know you will disagree here, but the country where you live isn’t the best place to look for attractive women :) 60% of your women are obese. I feel sorry for you man.

    But my country is also going in your direction.

  264. #264 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:19 PM

    Khansahab,

    You won’t believe it but we are puppets and robots in the west. In Pakistan with whatever frailties in our system we are humans. In time it will become apparent what I am talking about.

  265. #265 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:20 PM

    Sagaat

    Most Bollywood actresses are Punjabi. That should tell the story.

  266. #266 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:21 PM

    Sagaat

    I know what you are talking about. But at least there IS a system in the West. In Pakistan might is right. At least being puppets and robots makes our lives more tolerant and civilised.

  267. #267 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:21 PM

    Khansahab,

    You obviously haven’t been to NYC. No-one is obese here. In fact not only that, but people here are very attractive– naturally and possibly because money can these days buy almost every part of the body. That can only explain so much perfection here.

  268. #268 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:24 PM

    Khansahab,

    You have no idea of what I am talking about. I’d rather not say about these things as I will come across as a nutcase.

  269. #269 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:24 PM

    Sagaat

    I have been to NYC, Chicago, Buffalo, Orlando, Houston, Milwaukee- I saw plenty of fat women everywhere.

    English women are 100 times more attractive than American women.

  270. #270 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:26 PM

    Sagaat

    Yeah, it is better you don’t speak about those kinds of issues, but I know exactly what you are talking about.

  271. #271 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:30 PM

    Khansahab,

    I am surprised that you found people in NYC fat. In my experience they are very fit, more so than many other parts of the world. I am not sure how to convince you about anything today :P

  272. #272 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:33 PM

    Sagaat

    I don’t remember NYC as well as some other places in USA, but the obesity in women was a general observation of USA. I just saw a lot of fat women and the statistics coincide with this- NYC culturally is not too different to other big cities like Chicago or Houston. So, I don’t see how the fat ones can just opt to live in a different part of the USA.

  273. #273 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:35 PM

    Sagaat

    I have just checked- 64% of women in USA are obese.

  274. #274 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:36 PM

    Khansahab,

    It happens to be the case that people in the US that you will find things segmented in various places; in this case, I would think NYC (manhatten) has a very strong proportion of attractive people. The beauty is that it is mixed too in terms of the people from different backgrounds– so if you go to bars and clubs you are likely to find attractive people from various places.

  275. #275 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:39 PM

    Khansahab,

    That statistic is surprising!

    However, in Manhatten, maybe less than 5 percent are obese. Obviously, that doesn’t constitute a very large proportion of the US population.

  276. #276 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 9:40 PM

    Sagaat

    OK- but it all depends on the beholder too, I guess.

    I mean, it is perfectly acceptable if you think being obese makes a person attractive.
    ;)

  277. #277 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 9:44 PM

    Khansahab,

    Absolutely not. I don’t find fat women attractive. But in America some people do and they have this thing for big women ;)

  278. #280 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 10:09 PM

    Sagaat

    I will show you many Iman Alis in UK with better bodies

  279. #281 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 10:17 PM

    Khansahab,

    I assure you will have difficulty in finding Iman Ali’s in the UK, The perfect lips, eyes, the nose, etc are hard to find anywhere. What you are suggesting is someone that looks like Iman Ali but not exactly looks like Eman Ali. In terms of just looks she is much better than Katrina Kaif and is comparable to Aishwarya Rai, Sushmita Shen, and Madhuri Dixit.

  280. #282 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 10:17 PM

    Sagaat

    AKS I am lucky to have a very high metabolism rate and I eat very unhealthy food from the dieticians and weight watchers point of view. U won’t believe the kinda food I eat, from morning it starts with omelet and parathas and dinner invariably meat, fish or poultry, I do eat vegetables like Bhindi, egg plant, spinach, tomatoes, carrots, zucchini (toree), tinday, karalay etc. But, I hate bock choi and other Chinese vegetables. I also eat Arabic and Turkish food but, BBQ is my fav. I eat pizzas and ice creams and chocolates and desserts. Last week, I bought two boxes of Habashi Halawa of 1 lb. each and finished both of them in 2 days. Crazy isn’t it? Yes, I am. :D I eat dessert mostly at night time. :D I am a “Cereal Killer” IF I get up in the middle of the night due to any reason (I don’t have a bladder problem and I never wake up in the night for that despite the fact that I drink 4-5 liters of water and even on my bedside, I keep a bottle of water and keep drinking in the night without disturbing my sleep) generally it is in the night that I get hungry say between 1 to 3 a.m. then I eat cereal with carnation evaporated milk and black dates, instead of sugar. That’s if I get up in the middle of the night only then and, I cannot go back to sleep so, I have to eat, cannot sleep when I am hungry.

    Almost every month there is a Nihari, Paya or Haleem party and you know what a killer these dishes are. While cooking these dishes, the thing that I do which most people don’t is: After getting meat from the butcher, I clean it myself to my satisfaction with my professional set of knieves and then, if it is for Nihari or Paya, you have to cook it in two stages, so in the first stage, i.e., after cooking the meat and the stock, I keep the cooked food in the fridge and the animal fat comes on the top and freezes and then I skim it out and throw it in the trash, I do the same with Chicken. Animal fat is very dangerous for cardiac problems and Cholesterol so, one should avoid it as much as possible. I prefer my own Chinese cuisine because, in the restaurants, most of them are not Halal and they also mess up with other fats, so I avoid Chinese food at restaurants. Touch wood, my fasting sugar level, Cholesterol, Triglycerides etc., etc.., are all within normal limits. So, my friend since we are no more sports personalities, eat, eat as much as you like and as often as you can. You only live once, “You only live twice” is James Bond movie and that too a flop one! :D

  281. #283 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 10:19 PM

    Sagaat

    Man if you start criticising Katrina Kaif or Kareena Kapoor then we will have a full scale war.

    You lay off these two, and I will lay off Madhuri, Madhubala and other aunties.

  282. #284 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 27, 2011 - 10:24 PM

    Sagaat and Konquest, LOL………. both of you are real THURKIES you guys can talk about girls for hours and hours and still not feel satisfied, there seems to be some problem with U2

    Confucius said, ” If you have such problems at night, wake up with solution in your hand. ” :D

  283. #285 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 10:25 PM

    Javed Khan,

    I understand what you are saying. But not everyone is blessed with the same high metabolism as yours. Its crazy the amount of fat and sugar that you take in your diet and still remain fit.

    I am particularly careful in removing the oil from curries, nihari, etc…what I find is that I save almost 4 tablespoon of oil that way (or 500 calories) per meal (when I order from outside). The oil comes on top and it is visible. I don’t understand why they inundate food with oil back there. There is A LOT of oil and butter in our dishes. That is why as soon as these players are done with cricket, their bellies start appearing, as they weren’t trained to consume the right food. However, at the same time, I also realize that the our BBQ has much less oil and fat, and is very healthy.

  284. #286 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 10:27 PM

    Sagaat

    Do the women in your country eat a lot of curries and nihari?
    :D

  285. #287 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 10:30 PM

    Javed Khan,

    That is the sort of problem that anyone can solve, the one with the solution in the hands at night :P Aren’t you going to give us better advice :)

  286. #288 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 10:32 PM

    Khansahab,

    They eat burgers and cakes. :D

  287. #289 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 10:33 PM

    Sagaat

    I have burgers nearly every weekday. Man I am addicted to them.

  288. #290 by Sagaat on July 27, 2011 - 10:36 PM

    Khansahab,

    Haha critcizing everything American and consuming American food :P

    I’ll be honest I like the British fish and chips more.

  289. #291 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 10:42 PM

    Sagaat

    Unfortunately now “British fish and chips” is very rare because towns have become multi cultural, and you get substandard fish and chips in Chinese and Punjabi takeaways….

    However it is still loved in smaller towns and villages.

  290. #292 by Konquest on July 27, 2011 - 10:44 PM

    OK I am going now JAK and Sagaat

    Takecare and speak soon inshallah

  291. #293 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 1:25 AM

    Sagaat, a Pakistani was eating chicken tikka in a UK restaurant and like all desis he was holding the bone in his hand and biting the meat out of it. A gora couldn’t control himself and goes to him and asks, “What do dogs eat in your country”” He held the chicken tikka in his hand and with a mouthful of chicken bite, he replied, “Fishhhhhh and Chipssss.”

    As regards that solution it is not mine, it was a few thousand years old by the Chinese thinker, philosopher, scholar KOONG FU SHUS. :D And, you are not so young not to know that the proof of the pudding is in eating :D

    Why do people add so much oil in the curries? You will not understand unless you are a cook, if you cook Nihari in less oil its not the same taste and whoever wants to avoid oil or fat, may skim it, like you skim read my comments. ;-)

  292. #294 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 1:41 AM

    Sagaat

    Regarding staying fit, I do eat everything but, I don’t hog like other people (here) at dinner parties especially if you see some desis they pile up their plates like a mountain and in Urdu, they call it PAHAREE PLATE. As a matter of courtesy they can always go for a second helping — which in most cases they do — but, their first helping gives the impression that there is no tomorrow and there will be no food left. :D

    Secondly, whenever I go for late night dinners, by 6:00 p,m., I eat something at home before I go because, sometimes the food is either very hot and spicy or, its not up to my taste because they generally cater the food from restaurants and it is loaded with MSG and made from packet masala.. The other thing is, I hate late night dinners as the food remains in your tummy for hours and you sleep before it is digested and that is how the fat is built on your tummy. And, then you have jug handles and what not. :D

    Most of those people (here) my age look at least 10 years older than me and more than 80% of them are bald and have bellies or waistline over 42″ whereas, mine is only 32″ and I haven’t lost any hair, I guess I got my mother’s genes, my father became diabetic at an early age. Anyways, like Iqbal Bano says:

    ye apni apni kismet hai
    hum khail rahey hain khushion se
    tum doob gaye ho aahon mein :D


    I have genetically altered this Sher to convey my meaning :D

  293. #295 by Sagaat on July 28, 2011 - 4:32 AM

    Javed Khan,

    Not only have I seen desis pile up their plates but I have seen them waiting in anticipation for hours before dinner parties and not eating prior to them. Besides, these dinner parties, especially the shaadi ones, are arranged through caterers that serve a variety of food, and, generally speaking, the food is very, very average. When I went to Pakistan recently, 100s of places and restaurants served much better food than the ones in a shaadi.

    As regards to your third paragraph, without affirming or denying it, all I would add is, ‘perception is reality’ ;)

    The way the philosopher actually put it was, “to be is to be perceived” and it conveys a slightly different sense than that of the above as the above weighs the perception of the self more. Now this is certainly true in the case of our foreign minister. She is quite average looking but the press has gone bonkers.

  294. #296 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 9:28 AM

    Sagaat, I will not disagree with you on the comment about desi caterers here, of course you get good food in Pakistan because, there is huge competition whereas, here it is monopoly and they know that and have serious attitude problems. And you are also right about our people waiting for hours or skipping a meal before the party. I have heard from so many of them and, I used to think they are kidding but, it is true that they skip a meal for a party i.e., to do justice to the food.

    Ramadan is starting from either Sunday or Monday Inshallah, and instead of holding iftar parties at home, we usually make something special and take it to the grand mosque for a community iftar. Some people who cannot afford good meals are regulars and that is the purpose that at least they get to eat good food during this holy month. Whereas, iftar parties at home are extravagance and a total waste of money, i.e., in consideration of the way iftar parties are conducted here. They invite 20-25 families and it amounts to 75-80 people from all ages and genders. In these houses with so many men, women and children it is always over crowding and extremely noisy.

    I have seen so many adults and not just kids, hogging iftar like dinner and they have no space for dinner, the worst thing is some of them, they take a bite from one samosa and leave it, then they take a bite from a pakora and leave it, the kids take a couple of bites from an apple and they leave it, they take a glass full of sharbet and drink only quarter of it. There is so much wastage of food in terms of iftar and dinner both. So, after observing this we have decided a long time ago that we will not be following the herd instead we cook and take food for 20-30 people to the grand mosque in our community and place it on the tables, at least these people eat and not just take bites and leave it for the trash.

  295. #297 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 9:33 AM

    Bichoo

    Did you read Manjrekar’s test analysis on cricinfo? He is saying what you, pawan and all of us have already discussed here.

  296. #298 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 9:35 AM

    Sagaat

    Are you talking about this woman?

    http://www.dawn.com/wp-content/gallery/we-can-still-bank-on-the-smile/khar_001.jpg

    not bad ;-)

  297. #299 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 9:49 AM

    India not good enough to worry England: Boycott

    Geoffrey Boycott has said India’s defeat by England in the first Test at Lord’s marked the ‘beginning of the end’ of their time as the world’s No 1 Test team.

    England, who won the first Test by 196 runs, will replace India at the top of the ICC’s Test Championship table if they win the ongoing four-match
    series by a margin of at least two Tests.

    Former South Africa fast bowler Allan Donald believes Andrew Strauss’s side ‘deserve’ to be at the summit of Test cricket.

    Boycott, writing in The Daily Telegraph, said the tourists’ bowling was “not good enough to worry England”.

    Zaheer Khan,
    India’s strike bowler, broke down early on at Lord’s with a hamstring strain and is struggling to be fit for the second Test.

    Former England opener Boycott was not surprised, saying: “Zaheer Khan is a quality bowler but even before the series started I never expected him to survive bowling in four Test matches in five weeks.

    “His ability has never been in doubt but his fitness has always been a worry,” he added.

    “The great thing for England is they have two good back up seamers queuing up to take places.

    “Tim Bresnan has done wonders when he has played. He has surprised me and probably deserved to play at Lord’s. And then there is Graham Onions who is back bowling for Durham and was a raving success against Australia in England.

    India do not have back up seamers like that and that is where England’s advantage lies.

    “Now they all have self-belief as well. They have confidence in each other and they also know if they don’t perform somebody else will get their place.”

    Donald told BBC Radio: “England deserve to be the number one, there’s no question about it.”—AFP

  298. #300 by Bichoo on July 28, 2011 - 12:53 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Interesting discussion on food going on there … keep it up.

    I read what Manjrekar said on Cricinfo, it’s not wonder he is saying pretty much the same, anyone who follows cricket properly and think independently can come to same conclusions. Most of the time these experts always come in late and make same comments that you or I have made here.

    Regarding Geoff Boycott, Ian Botham, and all of those English “experts” and press going gaga over England after one test win .. this is nothing new. Ever since England won the Ashes under under over a 3rd rated Aussie team, they have been going gaga and saying they are the best team in the world. It is true that they are a very good outfit now, and probably the best England team that I have seen in many years. However, English ex-players were always talking up England team whenever they have a glimpse of success. Their press is even worser than Indian press in hyping up their team. Indians, by contrast has been silent and no one can at least blame them for coming in and claiming they are world beaters then lose the match.

    Latest news is that Tremlett the giant is coming down with a hamstring injury before the second test, there goes the theory of England fitness and preparation.

    It would be better for these so called experts to wait until all four tests are completed before making any claims. I think Indians will come back hard during the remaining three tests.

  299. #301 by Bichoo on July 28, 2011 - 1:03 PM

    One more thing about the English ex-players and press is that when they start losing they will cry foul .. when Imran Khan and Sarfraz Navaz started reverse swinging the ball in the late 70′s during England tour, these experts and their press claimed Pakistani bowlers were using bottle caps to rough up one side. There is a long history here, in 1986 when India won two tests against them with medium paced trundlers Chetan Sharma, Madan Lal, Roger Binny, and Kapil Dev taking wickets by the buckets under swinging conditions they claimed foul. They said some of the bowlers were chucking, without which so much swing wasn’t possible for a non-English bowler. The only time they did complain is when West Indian fast bowlers regularly battered and bruised them with short pitch bumper barrage on their chests and rib cage, they took it all and lost meekly match after match. English always have a superiority complex against sub-continental teams, possibly a left over of their colonial past.

  300. #302 by Sagaat on July 28, 2011 - 1:26 PM

    Bichoo,

    Not only do the commentators extract information from us, but you will find that many players also read legslip. At one point I felt that the ideas I had in my mind as regards to cricket (especially Pakistan cricket) were finally coming to fruitition. We all had a role to play in Malik’s ouster I think. It was a good decision on part of the board and Yawar Saeed came across as a very astute man to echo our sentiments. Naturally when an idea is logically constructed from sound premises, it will get the due attention and thought it deserves. So keep influencing selection! But not just selection, you can still have grander ideas in place as regards to selection policy, how to find talent, how to groom it, and how to enable it to mature. Unfortunately, I have lost a bit of leverage as in between there was a period when I watched very less cricket and didn’t make many comments. At the same time many of my predictions which were coming true and based on very sound logic (I believe) started going awry as I wasn’t following cricket properly. But nevertheless not just cricketing ideas, but also other ideas resonate with people I find. Therefore, unlike cricinfo, the scope of this blog is broader.

    As regards to the English team being number one, this series will certainly decide the outcome. England are a step ahead after beating Australia in Australia. The major challenge for them to dominate cricket though would be the ability to beat India in India (which is very unlikely). And without having genuine fast bowlers, great material that is, it is very hard to build a team which dominates world cricket. England doesn’t have them so it will be a three-way battle between England, SA, and India.

  301. #303 by tom on July 28, 2011 - 2:08 PM

    Javed
    You apologizwd twice to a dog!
    Bye

  302. #304 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 4:43 PM

    Among the dogs too there are various types and species and I thought this is not the same one I have dealt with before on the other blog, hence I apologized straightaway to please this one. And, a man doesn’t become small if he stands up and apologizes to anyone even to a dog hence based on that notion I thought of being straightforward, upright and honest. But, that was not enough for you and you started cribbing and lecturing me on ethics and morality like a nagging old widow, it took me some time and some research to find out that the basic nature does not change, it remains the same. Even if you dye a black dog with Heena stripes, it doesn’t make him a tiger. A cry baby remains a cry baby for life,no matter if he changes his name and go to other blogs his basic nature remains the same just like a dog’s tail or, KUTTAY KI DUMM TERHI KI TERHI and, that cannot be straightened because, that is his “KHASLAT” you will do the same, keep coming here and keep cribbing, nagging and keep telling us, I am going, I am going just like you did before, but you have no place to go and, you are a lonely soul and an attention seeker as well as a teacher’s pet. Unfortunately here you can’t complain to her anymore, isn’t it sad? You should know what I am talking about? So stop being so self-centered and sentimental go find another place.

  303. #305 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 5:22 PM

    Bichoo

    I agree with the notion that the British media is the worst especially their tabloids, and their ex-players are not different from the Pakistani ex-players, the only difference is they are more educated whereas, our paindoos are uncouth and they blab constantly, even the so-called oxford educated also blabs whatever he has on his mind.

    I also agree with you guys that one test doesn’t mean anything, they are actually trying to demoralize India just like Shane Warne and McGrath used to target individual batsmen before the start of a series and these are all tactics.

    My view about improving cricket in Pakistan is not just about revamping the PCB but, not giving any official role to any ex-player in the organization. The other thing is what Sagaat has mentioned about how to find the young talent, there needs to be a fair selection when finding the young talent and also providing them the proper facilities instead of money being spent by the PCB officials in traveling internationally and unnecessarily to make their holidays official.

    unfortunately, the media is so strong these days and they stoop very low to project their channels or news network by interviewing banned players like Salman Khan. This is highly unethical and unprofessional. But, you cannot change them they are making money by hook or by crook.

    Sagaat, I was the first one to write against Shoaib Malik’s appointment as the captain of the Pakistan team i.e., because, I saw him on TV when Rameez Raja interviewed him for deliberately throwing away a domestic match and then acting arrogant. Also, I saw him on TV during that match against England in which Afridi was caught scuffing the pitch, it was Shoaib Malik who was bewitching Afridi and lured him to do that and that stupid Akhroat didn’t use his pea brain and Malik the Meesna succeeded in getting the job done.

  304. #306 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 5:22 PM

    Bichoo

    I agree with the notion that the British media is the worst especially their tabloids, and their ex-players are not different from the Pakistani ex-players, the only difference is they are more educated whereas, our paindoos are uncouth and they blab constantly, even the so-called oxford educated also blabs whatever he has on his mind.

    I also agree with you guys that one test doesn’t mean anything, they are actually trying to demoralize India just like Shane Warne and McGrath used to target individual batsmen before the start of a series and these are all tactics.

    My view about improving cricket in Pakistan is not just about revamping the PCB but, not giving any official role to any ex-player in the organization. The other thing is what Sagaat has mentioned about how to find the young talent, there needs to be a fair selection when finding the young talent and also providing them the proper facilities instead of money being spent by the PCB officials in traveling internationally and unnecessarily to make their holidays official.

    unfortunately, the media is so strong these days and they stoop very low to project their channels or news network by interviewing banned players like Salman Khan. This is highly unethical and unprofessional. But, you cannot change them they are making money by hook or by crook.

    Sagaat, I was the first one to write against Shoaib Malik’s appointment as the captain of the Pakistan team i.e., because, I saw him on TV when Rameez Raja interviewed him for deliberately throwing away a domestic match and then acting arrogant. Also, I saw him on TV during that match against England in which Afridi was caught scuffing the pitch, it was Shoaib Malik who was bewitching Afridi and lured him to do that and that stupid Akhroat didn’t use his pea brain and Malik the Meesna succeeded in getting the job done.

  305. #307 by Pawan on July 28, 2011 - 8:33 PM

    Rumor has it that Hina Khar came to India with a $10000 bag and we thought Pak was in an economic crises!

  306. #308 by Konquest on July 28, 2011 - 8:37 PM

    Pawan

    Pakistan’s politicians have better living standards than American politicians. That is also one facet of Pakistani society. Most of the wealth has been amassed through illegal or immoral means.

  307. #309 by Konquest on July 28, 2011 - 8:39 PM

    Pakistan squad for Zimbabwe:

    Pakistan squad: Misbah-ul-Haq (capt), Mohammad Hafeez, Taufiq Umar, Imran Farhat, Azhar Ali, Younis Khan, Asad Shafiq, Umar Akmal, Rameez Raja junior, Adnan Akmal (wk), Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah, Sohail Tanvir, Sohail Khan, Junaid Khan, Aizaz Cheema.

    Check out the parchee players. Shahid Afridi out, and Imran Farhat in.

  308. #310 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 10:16 PM

    Pawan

    Have you not heard about Fauzia Gillani, w/o Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gillani bought a £ Stg. 750,000 diamond ring? Konquest is very modest in describing Pakistani politicians lifestyle by comparing with Americans, actually they have amassed wealth more than the Shaikhs of the oil rich states.

  309. #311 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 10:19 PM

    hahahahahaha

    ilyASS ka jamai is back in the team. That is how Butt rewards people when he fired ilyASS, he must have promised, “tusi fikr na kero mai toaday damaad noo team ich layenga!”

  310. #312 by Konquest on July 28, 2011 - 10:21 PM

    Javed A Khan

    I mentioned American politicians because Pawan mentioned about economic crisis in Pakistan, and I was trying to indicate that if America is the world’s biggest economy, their leaders are poorer than Pakistani leaders.

  311. #313 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 28, 2011 - 10:52 PM

    Konquest

    I got you, thanks for that and …………………. $14 trillion debt……….. wow ……….. divide 14 trillion by 300 million (people) it is $50,000 per person. Which country has such a huge debt?

  312. #314 by Sagaat on July 28, 2011 - 11:56 PM

    Javed Khan,

    14 Trillion is the debt all right, but the yearly output is also slightly more than 14 Trillion. Which country has such a huge output? Besides that, debt is denominated in dollars, so all Americans have to do is, print the money and give it back ;)

  313. #315 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 12:35 AM

    Javed Khan,

    Apart from the logical explanation Sagaat gave about Economic output .. here is another one …

    Guess who has got the biggest guns in the world, yeah, you got it right, the one with 14 trillion debt, feel like asking the money back from the guy with biggest weapons pointed at you :)

    The math is actually 14 trillion divided by about 6 billion people, because it’s everyone’s :)

  314. #316 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 2:24 AM

    Bichoo,

    Hahaha guns? 21st century wars are energy wars. What we are talking about are mind control technologies, earthquakes, machines that can think like humans, machines that can be guided with human thought alone, and basically star wars stuff– lasers, etc….what is official is the guns but the Russians, Americans, the Chinese, etc aren’t too concerned about guns, they are concerned about the most effecient way to harness energy for the above purposes….

  315. #317 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 2:55 AM

    Sagaat and Bichoo

    Yeah, the most efficient way to harness energy is to save your oil wells and consume the Shaik’s oil wells after that sell them your own oil at an unimaginable price and make them bankrupt. :D First the petro dollars that are in the US banks shall be consumed and then, they will ask them to pay cash, obviously they cannot. So, what will be the result? BANKRUPTCIES in the Middle East and other oil producing nations.

    American economy is hollow from inside. The only reason they are surviving is because 90% of the world transactions takes place in US dollars and are routed through the US banks only because it is their local currency. Not only Chinese money from the balance of sale but, the Arab Petro Dollars are also in the US banks and they don’t deny having them but, when they ask a large amount to meet their expenses and debts, they are politely told that we have your money but, right now we cannot give you X amount, you may take ‘y’ amount. At least they are saying they will pay them back when the situation improves, whereas the Iranian Gold reserves which were in hundreds of billions if not in trillions were seized completely. To pay back the debt, they can’t print more US treasury bonds because China threatens them that they will sell the treasury bonds in the open market.

  316. #318 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 3:11 AM

    Javed Khan,

    What you said in the first paragraph sounds plausible, but middle east is not running out of oil anytime soon, perhaps in the next 100 years, America does think about far reaching goals though, so it is still a probable scenario.

    As for the American economy being hollow, I don’t agree, by the same token Chinese economy is also hollow, what does China has got other than selling cheap products all over the world, bulk of it to America anyway. Manufacturing base is not required for the economy to function, most of the intellectual property is still created in America. For instance, the computers we use and the softwares that run them are produced in American. Which other country in the world has produced an operating system that runs computers. Apple is American, so is Google. These are all products that improve our life every day. What about prescription drugs, American drug companies research and patent most of the latest drugs with cure for new diseases. China is not the one who produce vaccine for life threatening diseases.

    What about food, Americans have mastered the science of creating more output with least cost, and it is being used all over the world. In Aerospace and Engineering also there has been ground breaking innovations. American universities still attract the best and the brightest minds from all over the world.

    If anything, it is China that is hollow. I could go on and on. American contributions to world has been immense, yet, there is always criticism, but that happens. One could say this is all for profit, yes, that is true, but most of the American innovations still has made human life better.

    As for who owns the debt, China and others own only smaller shares of the debt, about 5.6 trillion of it, rest of the 9 trillion is owned by Americans.

  317. #319 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 3:32 AM

    Javed Khan,

    The techology I am talking about is right out from a comic book or a fairy tale. Think of yourself as a robot which can be controlled by a remote control. Now a hacker who can get into the remote control can control your thoughts and actions. So, think of hackers all over the world, trying to hack into this remote control and gain the ultimate authority– that over the human being and his brain. Let me tell you that this isn’t the future, this is the present. Not only that, countries can give other countries earthquakes using, again, energy-based technologies. EM waves can remotely pry in a human brain, read its thoughts, control its actions, etc…this is not official technology but at a deeper scale this is where the wars are being fought amongst hackers right now. Whichever country is superior in this hacking war, so to speak, has the human mind and will under his control.

  318. #320 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 3:32 AM

    Bichoo,

    I agree that they still have a lot of oil reserves especially KSA which is number one but, Canada is number 2 in the world oil reserves ranking. Russia stands number 8 and China 13, USA 14th, this news is on Wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves

    As far as I know most Arab countries including Iran have cut down the production and that is why more information is needed. Dubai used to produce 400,000 barrels a day in the ’80′s and now they produce only 130,000 bpd, There must be a reason.

    In my previous comment or before, I did not say that Chinese economy is strong. They have just entered the competitive world and making consumer goods at cheap prices does not making them a gigantic economic power. Their problems are very different. I am not sure if you have heard about their older population. Chinese normally have a long life i.e., 80 years and plus and a few decades ago, there was a rule of one child per family and that is now going to kill them.

    You can make a pyramid here, for e.g., an old couple have one child. (2)
    That child is married so they are 2 more to that family.
    Then there is another old couple of either the boy or girl’s parents so, add 2 more, total 6
    Now if the child has another child the total is 7

    When the child grows and marries, you add 3 more i.e., the bride or groom and her or his parents so, total 10.

    There are no uncles, no aunties, no cousins just the immediate family because there was only one child……RULE.

    I have been to China and I have seen how the grandparents take care of their grandchildren, they are more precious to them than gold.

    Mind you China still does not offer health care programs at national level, you will hardly find regular pharmacies like we have here, there are hundreds and thousands of medicine shops but, those are Chinese medicines.

    I have never considered China as a strong economy. The people speak tooti phooti English but, that is not enough to compete in the advanced countries in every field, they have but, just a few. It will take them 100 years to become more self sufficient in medicine.

  319. #321 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 3:36 AM

    Sagaat

    May be the technology that you are talking about is present but, I am not a hypochondriac.

    Btw, tomorrow the movie COWBOYS & ALIENS is releasing, are you keen on watching it? I am, I was not interested in that HAIRY POTTA guy and I didn’t see it.

  320. #322 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 3:39 AM

    Javed Khan,

    If the Chinese live till 80 years and have long ages, doesn’t it mean that the chinese medicines work?

  321. #323 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 3:51 AM

    Denial is the natural reaction of a human robot hehe when he comes to know he is, in essence, a robot.

    The sort of technology I am talking about is the one that can not only read your thoughts and control your actions, but what you see can be remotely viewed throguh a computer, what you hear can be remotely heard by a computer (by the way all this inreal-time), your dreams can be seen directly, personalities can be implanted, etc…

    personalities are just a set of neural networks, so to change it, you just have to take guy A’s neural networks and implant them in guy B, thus giving B the personality of A (well, this can done remotely through electromagnetic radiation).

    What I have figured is that the human brain is the same, we all use a different part of it. So, you could be made to sing and dance like Shakira. Really. Just that you access a differe4nt part of teh same brain from Shakira, so if we can see what part Shakira uses, and make you use the same part, then you would be singing with the exact same voice. This is what happens when a jinn goes inside a person, he starts accessing a different part of the brain….and you can see how unnaturally the voice changes, personality changes, etc…

    You won’t believe me but time will tell though. There is zero difference between science and science fiction now. I can furnish hard evidence of these technologies if you are interested. But first you would need to keep an open mind in order to be able to believe it.

  322. #324 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 3:53 AM

    Sagaat, it is not just because of that, but because in the past they did not have money to buy cars and vehicles and walked a lot more, which the new generation is not doing, also their diet was very simple but, now they eat all junk food. I am talking about the health care of those old people which will be a big liability on the government and this is not just my thoughts, it is a well known fact based on analysis by experts. In our case it is like the baby-boomers generation.

    There is another problem especially in Europe and it is about he local population, they say that they are producing very, very few babies and their birth rate level is so low that in the next two decades if they don’t increase then they will become minorities in their own countries, like France and Italy, France is worried because of the rise of Muslim population. France’s total population is about 63 million whereas, the Muslims are about 7 million almost 9% and Italian population is decreasing and it is at such a low level that no nation has ever recovered after dipping at that level. So, there will be more non-Italians in Italy.

  323. #325 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 3:58 AM

    Sagaat

    Go ahead and shoot, I will read it tomorrow and reply later. IT is midnight here and I am very tired by now.

    The point about Chinese old age is, the longer they live, the more burden they carry and it is not just them but, all of us.

    Science and medicine are not making us live long, they are prolonging our deaths. After a certain age, we all become partially dependent and then totally dependent on others.

    I would like to die before I become a dependent IF WISHES WERE HORSES……… wali baat hai ……. and I will not go for euthanasia or suicide because it is haram.

    We will keep wondering when we will die and whether we will become dependent or just die while we are healthy and independent.

  324. #326 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 4:26 AM

    Firsly, I would like to point to this lawsuit against the NSA:

    John St. Clair Akwei vs.
    NSA, Ft. Meade, MD, USA
    Table of Contents
    Cover Page
    NSA Mission & Operations
    Communications Intelligence
    Signals Intelligence
    Domestic Intelligence
    Independently Operating Personnel Target Citizens
    NSA’s Domestic Electronic Surveillance Network
    Signals Intelligence Remote Computer Tampering
    Detecting EMF Fields in Humans for Surveillance
    NSA Signals Intelligence Use of EMF Brain Stimulatlon
    Capabilities of NSA operatives using RNM
    NSA Signals Intelligence Electronic Brain Link Technology
    Table: An example of EMF Brain Stimulation
    NSA Techniques and Resources
    Remote RNM Devices
    Spotters and Walk-Bys in Metropolitan Areas
    Chemicals and Drugs
    Intelligence/Anti-Terrorist Equipment
    Resources
    Further Resources
    Cover Page
    Evidence for the Lawsuit filed at the US courthouse in Washington, D.C.
    (Civil Action 92-0449)
    John St.Clair Akwei vs. NSA Ft George G. Meade, MD
    My knowledge of the National Security Agency’s structure, national security activities, proprietary technology,and
    covert operations to monitor individual citizens.
    Table of Contents
    The NSA’s mission and
    the NSA’s domestic Intelligence operation.
    Communications Intelligence (COMINT)
    Blanket coverage of all electronic communication in the U.S. and the world to ensure national security. The
    NSA at Ft. Meade, Maryland has had the most advanced computers in the world since the early 1960′s.
    NSA technology is developed and implemented in secret from private corporations, academia, and the general
    public.
    Signals Intelligence (SIGINT)
    The Signals Intelligence mission of the NSA has evolved into a program of decoding EMF waves in the
    environment for wirelessly tapping into computers and tracking persons with the electrical currents in their
    bodies. Signals Intelligence is based on the fact that everything in the environment with an electric current
    in it has a magnetic flux around it which gives off EMF waves. The NSA/DoD has developed proprietary
    advanced digital equipment which can remotely analyze all objects whether man-made or organic that have
    electrical activity.
    2
    Domestic Intelligence (DOMINT)
    The NSA has records on all U.S. citizens. The NSA gathers information on U.S. citizens who might be of
    interest to any of the over 50,000 NSA agents (HUMINT). These agents are authorized by executive order
    to spy on anyone. The NSA has a permanent National Security Anti-Terrorist surveillance network in place.
    This surveillance network is completely disguised and hidden from the public.
    Tracking individuals in the U.S. is easily and cost-effectively implemented with the NSA’s electronic surveillance
    network. This network (DOMINT) covers the entire U.S., involves tens of thousands of NSA personnel, and tracks
    millions of persons simultaneously. Cost effective implementation of operations is assured by NSA computer technology
    designed to minimize operations costs.
    NSA personnel serve in Quasi-public positions in their communities and run cover businesses and legitimate businesses
    that can inform the intelligence community of persons they would want to track. N.S.A. personnel in the
    community usually have cover identities such as social workers, lawyers and business owners.
    Individual citizens occasionally targeted for surveillance
    by independently operating NSA personnel.
    NSA personnel can control the lives of hundreds of thousands of individuals in the U.S. by using the NSA’s
    domestic intelligence network and cover businesses. The operations independently run by them can sometimes
    go beyond the bounds of law. Long-term control and sabotage of tens of thousands of unwitting citizens
    by NSA operatives is likely to happen. NSA Domint has the ability to covertly assassinate U.S. citizens
    or run covert psychological control operations to cause subjects to be diagnosed with ill mental health.
    Table of Contents
    NSA’s domestic electronic surveillance network
    As of the early 1960′s the most advanced computers in the world were at the NSA, Ft. Meade. Research
    breakthroughs with these computers were kept for the NSA. At the present time the NSA has nanotechnology computers
    that are 15 years ahead of present computer technology.
    The NSA obtains blanket coverage of information in the U.S. by using advanced computers that use artificial intelligence
    to screen all communications, irregardless of medium, for key words that should be brought to the attention of
    NSA agents/cryptologists. These computers monitor all communications at the transmitting and receiving ends. This
    blanket coverage of the U.S. is a result of the NSA’s Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) mission.
    The NSA’s electronic surveillance network is based on a cellular arrangement of devices that can monitor the entire
    EMF spectrum. This equipment was developed, implemented, and kept secret in the same manner as other electronic
    warfare programs.
    With this technology NSA personnel can non-obtrusively tap into any communication device in existence. This
    includes computers, telephones, radio and video-based devices, printers, car electronics, and even the minute electrical
    fields in humans (for tracking individuals).
    Signals Intelligence Remote Computer Tampering
    The NSA keeps track of all PCs and other computers sold in the U.S. This is an integral part of the Domestic Intelligence
    network.
    The NSA’s EMF equipment can tune in RF emissions from personal computer circuit boards (while filtering out
    emissions from monitors and power supplies). The RF emission from PC circuit boards contains digital information
    in the PC. Coded RF waves from the NSA’s equipment can resonate PC circuits and change data in the PC’s. Thus
    the NSA can gain wireless modem-style entry into any computer in the country for surveillance or anti-terrorist
    electronic warfare.
    Radio and Television signals can be substituted at the receiving end with special EMF equipment. Replacing signals
    in Radios and Televisions is another outgrowth of the NSA’s Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) mission.
    Detecting EMF Fields in Humans for Surveillance.
    A subject’s bioelectric field can be remotely detected, so subjects can be monitored anywhere they are. With special
    EMF equipment NSA cryptologists can remotely read evoked potentials (from EEGs). These can be decoded into a
    person’s brain-states and thoughts. The subject is then perfectly monitored from a distance.
    NSA personnel can dial up any individual in the country on the Signals lntelligence EMF scanning network and the
    NSA’s computers will then pinpoint and track that person 24 hours-a-day. The NSA can pick out and track anyone
    in the U.S.
    Table of Contents
    3
    NSA Signals Intelligence Use of EMF Brain Stimulation
    NSA Signals Intelligence uses EMF Brain Stimulation for Remote Neural Monitoring (RNM) and Electronic
    Brain Link (EBL). EMF Brain Stimulation has been in development since the MKUltra program of the early
    1950′s, which included neurological research into “radiation” (non-ionizing EMF) and bioelectric research and development.
    The resulting secret technology is categorized at the National Security Archives as “Radiation Intelligence,”
    defined as “information from unintentionally emanated electromagnetic waves in the environment, not including
    radioactivity or nuclear detonation.”
    Signals Intelligence implemented and kept this technology secret in the same manner as other electronic warfare
    programs of the U.S. government. The NSA monitors available information about this technology and withholds
    scientific research from the public. There are also international intelligence agency agreements to keep this technology
    secret.
    The NSA has proprietary electronic equipment that analyzes electrical activity in humans from a distance. NSA
    computer-generated brain mapping can continuously monitor all the electrical activity in die brain continuously. The
    NSA records aid decodes individual brain maps (of hundreds of thousands of persons) for national security purposes.
    EMF Brain Stimulation is also secretly used by the military for Brain-to-computer link. (In military fighter
    aircraft, for example.)
    For electronic surveillance purposes electrical activity in the speech center of the brain can be translated into the
    subject’s verbal thoughts. RNM can send encoded signals to the brain’s auditory cortex thus allowing audio communication
    direct to the brain (bypassing the ears). NSA operatives can use this to covertly debilitate subjects by simulating
    auditory hallucinations characteristic of paranoid schizophrenia.
    Without any contact with the subject, Remote Neural Monitoring can map out electrical activity from the visual
    cortex of a subject’s brain and show images from the subject’s brain on a video monitor. NSA operatives see what
    the surveillance subject’s eyes are seeing. Visual memory can also be seen. RNM can send images direct to the visual
    cortex. bypassing the eyes and optic nerves. NSA operatives can use this to surreptitiously put images in a surveillance
    subject’s brain while they are in R.E.M. sleep for brain-programming purposes.
    Table of Contents
    Capabilities of NSA operatives using RNM
    There has been a Signals Intelligence network in the U.S. since the 1940′s. The NSA, Ft. Meade has in place a vast
    two-way wireless RNM system which is used to track subjects and non-invasively monitor audio-visual information
    in their brain. This is all done with no physical contact with the subject. RNM is the ultimate method of surveillance
    and domestic intelligence. Speech and 3D sound, and subliminal audio can be sent to the auditory cortex of the subject’s
    brain (bypassing the ears) and images can be sent into the visual cortex. RNM can alter a subject’s perceptions,
    moods, and motor control.
    Speech cortex/auditory cortex link has become the ultimate communications system for the intelligence community.
    RNM allows for a complete audio-visual brain-to-brain link or brain-to-computer link.
    Table of Contents
    National Security Agency Signals Intelligence
    Electronic Brain Link Technology
    NSA SigInt can remotely detect, identify and monitor a person’s bioelectric fields.
    The NSA’s Signals Intelligence has the proprietary ability to remotely and non-invasively monitor information in the
    human brain by digitally decoding the evoked potentials in the 30-50 hz, .5 milliwatt electro-magnetic emissions
    from the brain.
    Neuronal activity in the brain creates a shifting electrical pattern that has a shifting magnetic flux. This magnetic
    flux puts out a constant 30-50 hz, .5 milliwatt electromagnetic (EMF) wave. Contained in the electromagnetic emission
    from the brain are spikes and patterns called “evoked potentials.”
    Every thought, reaction, motor command, auditory event, and visual image in the brain has a corresponding “evoked
    potential” or set of “evoked potentials.” The EMF emission from the brain can be decoded into the current thoughts,
    images and sounds in the subject’s brain.
    NSA SigInt uses EMF-transmitted Brain Stimulation as a communications system to transmit information (as
    well as nervous system messages) to intelligence agents and also to transmit to the brains of covert operations subjects
    (on a non-perceptible level).
    EMF Brain Stimulation works by sending a complexly coded and pulsed electromagnetic signal to trigger evoked
    potentials (events) in the brain, thereby forming sound and visual images in the brain’s neural circuits. EMF Brain
    Stimulation can also change a person’s brain-states and affect motor control.
    Two-way Electronic Brain-Link is done by remotely monitoring neural audio-visual information while transmitting
    sound to the auditory cortex (bypassing the ears) and transmitting faint images to the visual cortex (bypassing
    the optic nerves and eyes, the images appear as floating 2-D screens in the brain).
    4
    Two-Way Electronic Brain Link has become the ultimate communications system for CIA/NSA personnel. Remote
    Neural Monitoring (RNM, remotely monitoring bioelectric information in the human brain) has become the ultimate
    surveillance system. It is used by a limited number of agents in the U.S. Intelligence Community.
    RNM requires decoding the resonance frequency of each specific brain area. That frequency is then modulated in
    order to impose information in That specific brain area. The frequency to which the various brain areas respond
    varies from 3 Hz to 50 Hz. Only NSA Signals Intelligence modulates signals in this frequency band.
    An example of EMF Brain Stimulation:
    Brain Area
    Bioelectric
    Resonance
    Frequency
    Information Induced
    Through Modulation
    Motor Control Cortex 10 HZ Motor Impulse Co-ordination
    Auditory Cortex 15 HZ Sound which bypasses the ears
    Visual Cortex 25 HZ Images in the brain, bypassing the eyes
    Somatosensory Cortex 09 HZ Phantom Touch Sense
    Thought Center 20 HZ Imposed Subconscious Thoughts
    This modulated information can be put into the brain at varying intensities from subliminal to perceptible.
    Each person’s brain has a unique set of bioelectric resonance/entrainment frequencies. Sending audio information to
    a person’s brain at the frequency of another person’s auditory cortex would result in that audio information not being
    perceived.
    The Plaintiff learned of RNM by being in two-way RNM contact with the Kinnecome group at the NSA, Ft. Meade.
    They used RNM 3D sound direct to the brain to harass the Plaintiff from 10/90 to 5/91. As of 5/91 they have had
    two-way RNM communications with the Plaintiff and have used RNM to attempt to incapacitate the Plaintiff and
    hinder the Plaintiff from going to authorities about their activities against the Plaintiff in the last twelve years.
    The Kinnecome group has about 100 persons working 24-hours-a-day at Ft Meade. They have also brain-tapped
    persons the Plaintiff is in contact with to keep the Plaintiff isolated. This is the first time ever that a private citizen
    has been harassed with RNM and has been able to bring a lawsuit against NSA personnel misusing this intelligence
    operations method.
    Table of Contents
    NSA Techniques and Resources
    Remote monitoring/tracking of individuals in any location. inside any building, continuously, anywhere in the
    country.
    A system for inexpensive implementation of these operations allows for thousands of persons in every community to
    be spied on constantly by the NSA.
    Remote RNM Devices
    a) NSA’s RNM equipment remotely reads the evoked potentials (EEGs) of the human brain for tracking individuals
    and can send messages through the nervous system to affect their performance.
    b) [Information missing from original]
    c) RNM can electronically identify individuals and track then anywhere in the U.S. This equipment is on a
    network and is used for domestic intelligence operations, government security, and military base security,
    and in case of bioelectric warfare.
    Spotters and Walk-Bys in Metropolitan Areas
    a) Tens of thousands of persons in each area working as spotters and neighborhood/business place spies
    (sometimes unwittingly) following and checking on subjects who have been identified for covert control by
    NSA personnel.
    b) Agents working out of offices can be in constant communication with Spotters who are keeping track of
    the NSA’s thousands of subjects in public.
    c) NSA Agents in remote offices can instantly identify (using RNM) any individual spotted in public whom
    is in contact with surveillance subject.
    5
    Chemicals and Drugs into Residential Buildings with
    hidden NSA-lnstalled and maintained plastic plumbing lines.
    a) The NSA has kits for running lines into residential tap water and air ducts of subjects for the delivery of
    drugs (such as sleeping gas or brainwashing aiding drugs). This is an outgrowth of CIA pharmapsycholog y.
    Brief Overview of Proprietary U.S.
    Intelligence/Anti-Terrorist Equipment Mentioned.
    Fixed network of special EMF equipment that can read EEGs in human brains and identify/track individuals
    by using digital computers. ESB (Electrical Stimulation to the Brain) via EMF signal from the NSA
    Signals Intelligence is used to control subjects.
    EMF equipment that gathers information from PC circuit boards by deciphering RF emissions thereby gaining
    wireless modem-style entry into any personal computer in the country.
    All equipment hidden, all technology secret, all scientific research unreported (as in electronic warfare research).
    Not known to the public at all, yet complete and thorough implementation of this method of domestic intelligence
    has been in place since the early 1980′s.
    Table of Contents
    Resources
    These publications have only been discovered since December 1991, after Plaintiff had already notified authorities
    (Dept. of Justice, etc.) of Public Corruption by named NSA employees. When no action was taken against the NSA
    employees I researched the Intelligence Community electronic surveillance technology involved and discovered the
    following publications:
    The Body Electric
    Electromagnetis m and the Foundrrtion of Life, by Robert Becker, M.D.
    p. 265/313/318. Monitoringeuroe lectric information in the brain. E-M wave E.S.B.
    Cross Currents, by Robert Becker, M.D.
    p. 70, p. 78, p. 105/210/216/220/242/299/303 E-M ESB. Simulating auditory hallucinations. p. 274, “Remote
    computer tampering using the RF emissions from the logic board.”
    Currents of Death by Paul Brodeur
    p. 27/93. Driving brain electrical activity with external E-M, Magnetophosphen es, Delgado.
    The Zapping of America by Paul Brodeur
    DoD E-M ESB Research, simulating auditory hallucinations.
    Of Mice, Men and Molecules, by John H. Heller. 1963.
    p. 110, Bioelectricity. probing the brain with E-M waves.
    The 3-Pound Universe, by Judith Hooper
    p. 29/132/137. CIA EEG research. EEG’s for surveillance.
    In the Palaces or Memory, by George Johnson
    E-M emissions from the brain,the brain as an open electromagnetic circuit.
    The Puzzle Palace, by James Bamford
    Signals intelligence, most advanced computers in the early Sixties
    The U.S. Intelligence Community – Glossary terms at National Security Archives:
    Radiation intelligence – information from unintentionally emanated electromagnetic energy, excluding radioactive
    sources.
    The Search for the “Manchurian Candidate,” by John Marks
    p. 327. Electrical or radio stimulation to the brain, CIA R&D in bioelectrics.
    Secret Agenda, by Jim Hougan
    National Security cult groups.
    Crines of the Intelligence Commununity. by Morton Halperin
    Surreptitious entries; intelligence agents running operations against government workers
    War in the Age of Intelligent Machines
    NSA computer supremacy, complete control of information
    Alternate Computers, by Time-Life Books
    Molecule Computers
    The Mind, by Richard Restak, M.D.
    6
    p. 258, EEG Systems Inc., decoding brain E-M emanations, tracking thoughts on a computer.
    MedTech, by Lawrence Gallon
    Triggering events in the brain” direct to auditory cortex signals.
    Cyborg, by D.S. Halacy, Jr. (1965)
    Brain-to-computer link research contracts given out by the U.S. Govemment
    Psychiatry and the C.I.A.: Victims of Mind Control by Harvey M. Weinstein. M.D.
    Dr. Cameron, psychic driving. ultraconceptual communications.
    Journey Into Madness: Ihe True Story of Secret CIA Mind Control and Medical Abuse, by Gordon Thomas
    p. 127/276/116, 168-69. Intelligence R & D. Delgado. Psychic driving with radio telemetry.
    Mind Manipulators, by Alan Scheflin and Edward M. Opton
    MKULTRA brain research for information gathering
    The Brain Changers, by Maya Pines.
    p. 19. Listening to brain E-M emissions.
    Table of Contents
    Further Resources
    These publications have only been discovered since December 1991, after Plaintiff had already notified authorities
    (Dept. of Justice, etc.) of Public Corruption by named NSA employees. When no action was taken against the NSA
    employees I researched the Intelligence Community electronic surveillance technology involved and discovered the
    following publications:
    Modern Bielectricity
    Inducing audio in the brain with e-m waves, DoD cover-up, E-M wave ESB. Remote EEGs.
    Magnetic Stimulation in Clinical Neuropsysiology by Sudhansu Chokroverty
    Magneto-Phosphenes. Images direct to the visual cortex.
    The Mind of Man by Nigel Calder
    U.S. Intelligence brain research
    Neuroelectric Society Conference – 1971
    Audio direct to the brain with e-m waves, two waf remote EEG.
    Brain Control by Elliot S. Valenstein
    ESB control of individuals
    Towards Century 21 by C.S. Wallia
    p. 21. Brain Stimulation for direct to brain communication.
    Mind Wars by Ron McRae, associate of Jack Anderson
    p 62/106/136. Research into brain-to-brain electronic communications, remote neural e-m detection.
    Mind Tools by Rudy Rucker
    Brain tapping, communication with varying biomagnetic fields. p. 82
    U.S. News and World Report 1/2/84
    p. 88. e-m wave brain stimulation. Intelligence community high tech.
    Ear Magazine article on extremely low frequency radio emissions in the natural environment, radio emissions from
    the human body.
    City Paper article on FCC and NSA “complete radio spectrum” listening posts. 1/17/92.
    Frontiers in Science – 1958 – by Edward Hutchings, Jr.
    p. 48
    Beyond Biofeedback – 1977 – by Elmer and Alyce Green
    p. 118
    The Body Quantum by Fred Alan Wolf
    Cloning – A Biologist Reports by Robert Gilmore McKinnell
    Ethical review of cloning humans.
    Hoover’s FBI by former agent William Turner
    p. 280. Routines of electronic surveillance work.
    July 20, 2019 by Arthur C. Clarke
    Lida, Neurophonics, Brain/Computer Link
    MegaBrain by Michael Hutchison
    p. 107/108/117/120/123. Brain stimulation with e-m waves. CIA research and information control.
    The Cult of Information by Theodore Rosnak – 1986
    NSA Directive #145. Personal Files in Computers. Computer automated telephone tapping
    The Body Shop
    1968 implantation of an electrode array on the visual cortex for video direct to the brain and other 1960s research
    into electronically triggering phosphenes in the brain, thus bypassing the eyes.
    Evoked Potentials by David Regan
    Decoding neuroelectric information in the brain
    7
    Quelle: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/akwei.htm

  325. #327 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 4:32 AM

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/50396049/Psychotronic-Weapons

    Brain Manipulation From a DistanceLast year, in October, the congresman Denis J. Kucinich introduced in the American Congress abill, obliging the American president to get engaged in the negotiations aimed at the ban ofspace based weapons. In this bill the definition of a weapon system includes: any otherunacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means inflicting death or injury on, or damaging ordestroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical andeconomic well-being of a person) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-basedsystems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directedat individual persons or targeted populations or the purpose of information war, moodmanagement, or mind control of such persons or populations” (12). As in all legislative actsquoted in this article the bill counts with sound, light or electromagnetic stimulation of humanbrain. Psychotronic weapons remain, at least for a layman uninformed of secret militaryresearch, in the sphere of science fiction, since so far none of the published scientificexperiments was presented in the way which would allow for its replication.That it is feasible to manipulate human behavior with the use of subliminal, either sound orvisual, messages is now generally known. This is why in most of the countries the use of suchtechnologies, without consent of the user, is banned. Devices using light for the stimulation ofthe brain show another way how the light flashing in certain frequencies could be used for themanipulation of human psychic life. As for the sound, a report on the device transmitting a beamof sound waves, which can hear only persons at whom the beam of sound waves is targeted,appeared last year in the world newspapers. The beam is formed by a combination of soundand ultrasound waves which causes that a person targeted by this beam hears the sound insideof his head. Such a perception could easily convince the human being that it is mentally ill. Theacts presented in this article suggest that with the development of technology and knowledge ofthe functioning of human brain new ways of manipulation of human mind keep emerging. One ofthem seems to be the electromagnetic energy.Though in the open scientific literature only some 30 experiments were published, supportingthis assumption (1),(2), already in 1974, in the USSR, after succesfull testing with military unit inNovosibirsk, the installation Radioson (Radiosleep) was registered with the GovernmentCommittee on the Matters of Inventions and Discoveries of the USSR, described as a method ofinduction of sleep by means of radio waves (3), (4), (5). In the scientific literature technicalfeasibility of making a human being asleep by radio waves is confirmed in the book by Englishscientist carrying out research on the biological effects of electromagnetism (6). In the report byWorld Health Association on nonionizing radiation from 1991 we read “Many of biological effectsobserved in animals exposed to ELF fields appear to be associated, either directly or indirectly,with the nervous system” (2). Among the published experiments there are experiments wherepulsed microwaves caused the synchronization of isolated neurons with the frequency ofpulsing of microwaves – for example a neuron firing at a frequency 0.8 Hz was forced in this wayto fire the impulses at a frequency of 1 Hz. As well pulsed microwaves changed theconcentration of neurotransmitters in brain (neurotransmitters are a part of the mechanism
    RBG Blakademics March, 2011Psychotronic WeaponsPage 3which causes the firing of neurons in the brain) and reinforced or attenuated the effects of drugsdelivered into the brain (1). The experiment where the main brain frequencies registered byEEG were synchronized with therequency of microwave pulsing (1,2) might explain the functionof the Russian installation Radioson. Microwaves pulsed in the sleep frequency would cause thesynchronization of the brain activity with the sleep frequency and in this way produce the sleep.Pulsing of microwaves in frequency predominating in the brain at awaked state could by thesame procedure deny the sleep to a human being.A report derived from the testing program of the Microwave Research Department at the WalterRead Army Institute of research states “Microwave pulses appear to couple to the centralnervous system and produce stimulation similar to electric stimulation unrelated to heat”. In amany times replicated experiment microwaves pulsed in an exact frequency caused the efflux ofcalcium ions from the nerve cells (1,2). Calcium plays a key role in the firing of neurons andRoss Adey, member of the first scientific team which published this experiment, publicallyexpressed his conviction that this effect of electromagnetic radiation would interfere withconcentration on complex tasks (7). Robert Becker, who had share in the discovery of the effectof pulsedields at the healing of broken bones, published the excerpts from the reportrom WalterReed Army Institute testing program. In the first part “prompt debilitation effects” should havebeen tested (8). Were not those effects based on the experiment by Ross Adey and others withcalcium efflux ? British scientist John Evans, working in the same field, wrote that both RossAdey and Robert Becker lost their positions and research grants and called them “free-thinkingexiles” (6). In 1975, in the USA, a military experiment was published where pulsed microwavesproduced, in the brain of a human subject, an audio perception of numbers from 1 to 10 (9).Again the possibility to convince human being that it is mentally ill is obvious.The testing program of American Walter Read Army Institute of Research, where theexperiment took place, counts with “prompt auditory stimulation by means of auditory effects”and finally aims at “behavior controled by stimulation” (8). Let us imagine that the wordsdelivered into the brain were transcribed into ultrasound frequencies. Would not then the subjectperceive those words as his own thoughts? And could not then his behavior be controled in thisway? The American Air Force 1982 “Final Report On Biotechnology Research RequirementsFor Aeronautical Systems Through the Year 2000″ states: “While initial attention should betoward degradation of human performance through thermal loading and electromagnetic fieldeffects, subsequent work should address the possibilities of directing and interrogating mentalfunctioning, using externally applied fields” (10). Several scientists warned that latest advancesin neurophysiology could be used for the manipulation of human brain. In June 1995, MichaelPersinger, who worked on the American Navy’s project of Non-lethal electromagnetic weapons(11), published, in a scientific magazine, an article where he states: the technical capability toinfluence directly the major portion of the approximately six billion brains of the human specieswithout mediation through classical sensory modalities by generating neural information within aphysical medium within which all members of the species are immersed is now marginallyfeasible” (12). In 1998, the French National Bioethics Committee warned that neuroscience isbeing increasingly recognized as posing potential threat to human rights” (13). In May 1999 the neuroscientists conference, sponsored by the UN, took place in Tokyo. In thedeclaration we read: “Today we have intellectual, physical andinancial resources to master thepower of the brain itself, and to develop devices to touch the mind and even control or erase

    RBG Blakademics March, 2011Psychotronic WeaponsPage 4consciousnessWe wish to profess our hope that such pursuit of knowledge serves peace andwelfare” (14).The events at the international political scene, in the last few years, confirm thatthe concept of remote control of human brain is a matter of negotiations. In January 1999 theEuropean Parliament passed a resolution where it calls for an international conventionintroducing a global ban on all developments and deployments of weapons which might enableany form of manipulation of human beings.” (15) Already in 1997 nine states of the Union ofIndependent States addressed OUN, OBSE and the states of the Interparliamentary Union withthe proposal to place at the agenda of the General Assembly of the Organization of UnitedNations the preparation and conclusion of an international convention On Prevention ofInformational Wars and Limitation of Circulation of Informational Weapons” (17), (3). Theinitiative was originaly proposed, in the Russian State Duma, by Vladimir Lopatin (1). V. Lopatinworked,rom 1990 to 1995, in sequence, in the Committees on Security of the RussianFederation, Russian State Duma and Interparliamentary Assembly of the Commonwealth ofIndependent States, specializing in informational security (3).The concept of informational weapon or informational war is rather unknown to the worldgeneral public. In 1999, V. Lopatin, together with Russian scientist Vladimir Tsygankov,published a book Psychotronic Weapon and the Security of Russia” (3). There we find theexplanation of this terminology: “In the report on the research of the American Physical Societyfor the year 1993 the conclusion is presented that psychophysical weapon systemscan be usedfor the construction of a strategic arm of a new type (informational weapon in informational war)”Among many references to this subject we find Materials of the Parliament Hearings “Threatsand Challenges in the Sphere of Informational Security”, Moscow, July 1996, “InformationalWeapon as a Threat to the National Security of the Russian Federation” (analytical report of theIntelligence Service of the Russian Federation), Moscow, 1996 and a material “To Whom WillBelong the Conscienscious Weapon in the 21st century”, Moscow, 1997. (18). In 2000 V.Lopatin introduced, after two other authors, the third in order bill on the subject of “Informationaland Psychological Security of the Russian Federation”. The Russian newspaper Segodnyawrote about this draft: means of informational-psychological influence are capable not only toharm the health of a person, but, as well, cause and quotation of Lopatin’s draft follows theblocking of freedom of will of human being on subliminal level, the loss of ability of political,cultural and other selfidentifiction of human being, the manipulation of societal consciousness”and even destruction of united informational and spiritual space of Russia” (17).In the book “Psychotronic Weapon and the Security of Russia” the authors propose among thebasic principles of the Russian concept of the defense against the remote control of humanpsyche the acknowledgement of its factual existence as well as the acknowledgement ofrealistic feasibility of informational, psychotronic war (which as a matter of fact is actually takingplace without declaration of war)” (19). They quote as well the record from the session of theRussian Federation Federal Council where V. Lopatin stated that psychotronic weapon can”cause the blocking of the freedom of will of a human being on a subliminal level” or “instillationinto the consciousness or subconsciousness of a human being of information which will causefaulty perception of the reality” (20). For that matter they propose the preparation of nationallegislative as well as the norms of international law “aimed at the defense of human psycheagainst subliminal, destructive, informational effects” (21). As well they propose thedeclassificcation of all works on this technology and warn that, as a consequence of theclassification, the arms race is speeding up making the psychotronic war probable. Among the
    RBG Blakademics March, 2011Psychotronic WeaponsPage 5possible sources of remote influence on human psyche they list the generators of physicalfields” of “known as well as unknown nature” (22).In 1999 the STOA (Scientific and Technological Options Assessment), part of the DirectorateGeneral for Research of the European Parliament published the report on Crowd ControlTechnologies, ordered by them with the OMEGA foundation in British Manchester (23). One offour major subjects of the study are the 2nd generation” or “non lethal” technologies: “Thisreport evaluates the second generation of ‘non-lethal’ weapons which are emerging fromnational military and nuclear weapons laboratories in the United States as part of the ClintonAdministration’s ‘non-lethal’ warfare doctrine now adopted in turn by NATO. These devicesinclude weapons using directed energy beam,radiorequency, laser and accoustic mechanismsto incapacitate human targets” (24) The report states that the most controversial non-lethal’crowd control technology proposed by the U.S., are so called Radio Frequency or DirectedEnergy Weapons that can allegedly manipulate human behavior the greatest concern is withsystems which can directly interact with the human nervous system” (25). The report also statesthat perhaps the most powerful developments remain shrouded in secrecy” (26). Theunavailability of offical documents confirming the existence of this technology may be thereason why the OMEGA report is referencing, with respect to mind control technology, theinternet publication of the author of this article (27). In an identical approach the internetpublication of the directrice of the American human rights and anti mind control organization(CAHRA), Cheryl Welsh, is referenced by joint initiative of Quaker United Nations Office, UnitedNations Institute for Disarmament Research, and Programme for Strategic and InternationalSecurity Studies, with respect to non-lethal weapons (28).On September 25th, 2000 the Committee on Security of the Russian State Duma discussed theaddendum to the article 6 of the Federal law On Weapons. In the resolution we read: Theachievements of contemporary science allow for creation of measured methods of secret,remote influencing on the psyches and physiology of a person or a group of people” (29). Thecommittee recommended that the addendum be approved.The addendum to the article 6 of theRussian Federation law On Weapons” was approved on July 26, 2001. It states: within theterritory of the Russian Federation is prohibited the circulation of weapons and other objects theeffects of the operation of which are based on the use of electromagnetic, light, thermal, infra-sonic or ultra-sonic radiations” (30). In this way the Russian government made a first step tostand up to its dedication to the ban of mind control technology.In the Doctrine of InformationalSecurity of the Russian Federation, signed by president Putin in September 2000, among thedangers threatening the informational security of Russian Federation, is listed the threat to theconstitutional rights and freedoms of people and citizens in the sphere of spiritual life individual,group and societal consciousness” and “illegal use of special means affecting individual, groupand societal consciousness” (31). Among the major directions of the international cooperationtoward the guaranteeing of the informational security is listed the ban of production,dissemination and use of ‘informational weapon’ ” (32). This should be interpreted as thecontinuing Russian dedication to the international ban of the means of remote influencing of theactivity of human brain.In the above mentioned report, published by the STOA, the originally proposed version of theresolution of the European Parliament is quoted, calling for an international convention for aglobal ban on all research and development which seeks to apply knowledge of the chemical,
    RBG Blakademics March, 2011Psychotronic WeaponsPage 6electrical, sound vibration or other functioning of the human brain to the development ofweapons which might enable the manipulation of human beings, including a ban of any actual orpossible deployment of such systems.”(33) Here the term “actual” might easily mean that suchweapons are already deployed. Among the countries with the most advanced militarytechnologies those are the USA which did not present any international initiative demanding theban of technologies enabling the remote control of human mind. (The original version of the billby Denis J. Kucinich was changed.) All the same, according to the study published by STOA,the USA are the major promoter of the use of those arms. Non lethal technology was includedinto NATO military doctrine due to their effort: “At the initiative of the USA, within the frameworkof NATO, a special group was formed, for the perspective use of devices of non-lethal effects”states the record from the session of the Committe on Security of the Russian State Duma (29).The report published by STOA states: “In October 1999 NATO announced a new policy on non-lethal weapons and their place in allied arsenals” (34). “In 1996 non-lethal tools identified by theU.S. Army included directed energy systems” and “radio frequency weapons” (35) – thoseweapons, as was suggested in the STOA report as well, are being associated with the effectson human nervous system. According to the Russian government informational agency FAPSI,in the last 15 years, the U.S. expenses on the development and acquisition of the means ofinformational war grew four times and at present time they occupy the first place among allmilitary programs (17),(3).Though there are other concepts of informational war than mindcontrol, the unwillingnes of the USA to engage in the negotiations aimed at the ban of themanipulation of human brains might indicate their intent to use those means in internal as wellas international affairs. One clear consequence of the continuation of the apparent politics of secrecy surroundingtechnologies enabling remote control of human brains might be that the governments, whowould own such technologies, could use them without having to take into consideration theopinion of the general public. The concept of the democratic world would be, though secretly,disrupted in this way, and in the future the world populations could live in only fake democracywhere their own or foreign governments might, by means of secret technologies, shape theiropinions.
    RBG Blakademics March, 2011Psychotronic WeaponsPage 7

  326. #328 by aamir on July 29, 2011 - 1:44 PM

    tomy

    gud boy come on… roll over…. shabaash now take this treat and go home and sleep i have been reading tom’s comments but no time to reply i think he is a mental case who was abused in his childhood coz the way he complains all the time makes one feel he is hurt by a buchpan ki ziyadti. so who is it tomy is that a pathan or a jatt? i am a jatt from jhelum originally and now i am in durban sa and i have no problem in telling people my locaton or my real name which is aamir when javed khan mentioned ur location on the blog you reacted like someone has undressed you but u r such a dheet that u keep coming back in ur b’day suit and asking for trouble i think it is better for you not to pollute this blog and go somewhere else like PP where they will appreciate you more.

    sent from my iphone

  327. #329 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 1:46 PM

    Pawan,

    Are you watching Khujli wala bandar running England ragged

  328. #330 by Pawan on July 29, 2011 - 1:47 PM

    Yes baby.. LOL

    Bandar, bandar, kaha tha tu?

  329. #331 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 1:48 PM

    Sagaat

    wow, it will take me the whole week-end to read these two comments in order to reply to them because, I cannot do justice if I skim read it. One question, do you think that these machines or computers are smarter than human brains?

  330. #332 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 2:22 PM

    aamir

    have you heard this phrase in Urdu: chor ki darhi may tinka? That tomy has proved who he is? And, there is no confusion IN IT but he thinks he is a smart alec and thinks that because he has a dynamic domain which changes the last three digits (not just hourly, each time you log-in) and he doesn’t know that one doesn’t have to be Einstein to figure that out. Since he has never been a blog administrator he doesn’t know that the IP address appears along with email address – email addy could be fake – but the IP address does not change except in case of a dynamic domain where the last 3 digits change. In your case like when you use your iphone to send email to us, the IP address still appears because you are using the same telephone service provider. There are soft wares available through which one can check anyone’s IP address even on other blogs too. If one cross checks the IP address through IP locators it gives you the details of that domain and other details. Anyways, there is no need to explain this to that self-centered all knowing character. He is using Wi-Tribe Pakistan Limited is a broadband company with offices in Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad and Faisalabad. Since it is a dynamic domain which I have earlier mentioned changes its last 3 digits from its IP address, he thinks he can fool others, actually he is fooling himself.

    People can change IP addresses, email address and even their names (this one never had a real name and he has proved that he is a tomy) but, their writing style doesn’t change and it doesn’t take long to find out who is who? Like Chor ki darhee may tinka, i.e., when I wrote, “he cannot complain to her” I meant the teacher, because I referred him as teacher’s pet. And, he thought I am referring to someone in particular and jumped from his seat like he got a shock. In my previous comments I disclosed his other nick name that he used to use, but he tried to pretend that he has not understood, but how long can he hide under disguise ? Aly munna from now on you have been gagged. Itni bhee kya baysharmi ab kya apna balatkaar kerwa ker hee jao gay?

  331. #333 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 2:27 PM

    Bichoo and Pawan

    Yar abhee 4 din pehlay hee tum log bander ko gali nikaal rehay thayy and now you are asking tum kahan thay? That is him, whenever he comes back after a gap he takes wickets and that short success goes into his head and then he starts his antics and gets thrashed all over the park. Anyways, today he has done a good job and so has PK tun.

    Right now it is Bresnan and Bell jo abhee ghantiyaan baja rehay hain still there is that “Broad” who can spread and stretch his legs and there is Swann that can sail. Just hope that the Indians don’t get carried away with this quick wickets because, on this pitch a total of 250 is like 400 on other pitches. So, Indian batting will also be tested under these conditions.

  332. #334 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 2:33 PM

    Chalo Bresnan nay apni ghanti baja di lamboo kay aage

  333. #335 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 3:36 PM

    Broad and Swann swinging their bats at every ball has scored valuable runs for England, now they look like taking the score beyond 200, which could be quite a lot on this pitch.

    Why is India playing Harbhajan today? He bowled three overs so far for 15 runs and so far he looked very ordinary. Surely, it’s not for his bowling, do they expect him to score a 50 with the bat. Dumb idea not to drop this Crapbhajan

  334. #336 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 4:00 PM

    Bichoo

    This “Broad” is turning into an all-rounder now, in the previous test he scored 70 odd runs and now once again he has contributed some very valuable runs. Still 26 more overs to be bowled, 199/9 and Broad is batting on 47 with a strike rate of 102. Like, I have said, 250 runs on this pitch will be like 400 on the other pitches, even a 200 plus would be good enough for England to gain a small lead.

  335. #337 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 4:28 PM

    221 is not a bad total with poor light in the last 15 overs or so, India must be careful and not lose wickets, otherwise tomorrow they will be under tremendous pressure. Good luck to India

  336. #338 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 4:30 PM

    Javed Khan,

    The articles imply that we are machines LOL In other words our brains have been decoded: Our thoughts can be read remotely by a computer, as well as we can be controlled through the computer by someone. It is true. That’s how advanced technology is, and this is certainly srenger than fiction.

    I can also give you video evidence from History and discovery channel. Also, people’s account of btheir minds being hacked.

  337. #339 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 4:58 PM

    Sagaat

    The biggest mystery in human anatomy is the human brain and no man has yet understood how the brain functions (apart from the physiological and biological aspects and that too in a very limited way which the science and medicine has achieved so far) in such a complex fashion and that too, so fast? A computer works according to the set of commands that are programmed in its so-called brain and stores them in bits. Whereas, a human brain works much, much faster than any known computer in the world and the human brain stores information in patterns and releases them in patterns. You must have heard about dendrites that convey impulses to the cell body. Also, you must have heard that brain cells keep dying in huge numbers but, they keep denying it after making more research and they say even a zillion super computers cannot match a simple human brain. That is another matter that humans do not use their brains to its full potential or even 10% of it. But, the fact is without altering the chemical composition and the body enzymes of a human, one cannot control a human brain through a remote control device. Even the so-called waves that they have referred in that article cannot do much in controlling the brain fully or even partially, they can damage it but, cannot alter human thinking and human psychology from a distance through a remote control. One may argue that there is a possibility but, it is far fetched from reality.

    If a Man can understand human brain, then they will start brain transplant like, heart, liver, lungs and kidney transplant. But, that will be a complete new human being and not the same person anymore. Also, in case of other organ transplant they constantly give immune suppressant medication so that the organ is not rejected. And, once again it is the brain that activates the immune system and makes it hyper to attack a foreign body that has been transplanted or implanted in your body. So, imagine how complex it would be to do a brain transplant? The possibility of a brain transplant is similar to that of humans traveling faster than the speed of light which is 186,000 miles per second. In other words it is impossible. People who use fictions are trying to either scare others or trying to make out more money in terms of R&D funding.

  338. #340 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 5:02 PM

    With Laxman being promoted, and little movement in the pitch, I think India are favorites to take a lead and perhaps win the match.

  339. #341 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 5:12 PM

    Javed Khan,

    It can be done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjU5v1eAvvE

    What they are showing is much less advanced in that documentary though.

    But at some point in the documentary (part 3 or 4 I think) it alludes to the NSA’s mind control program. They also show a US govt patent (and if it is a patent, then it is necessarily and officially true) which says that voices, real voices, can be trasmitted into your head, that is, Obama would be speaking in the white house and you will be hearing it “inside your head” in Canada. That is patented so it is necessarily true. But the technology, of course, is much more advanced than that, too.

    I can say that they can go inside your dreams and see exactly what you are dreaming, implant personalities, etc and other complex stuff.

  340. #342 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 5:16 PM

    Sagaat,

    Little movement in the pitch? What match are you watching. The ball is moving in all directions and doing all kinds of things, two of the very best batsmen of this era, Dravid and Laxman are batting as if they are surrounded by rattle snakes. I don’t see India making 200 on this pitch, in either innings. I think that “Broad” really took the game away from Indians.

    I am agree with Javed Khan, it is useful to have a “Broad” in the team for emergencies :)

  341. #343 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 5:20 PM

    Sagaat,

    Yaar, you are reading too much of science fiction .. I am talking about your human brain control program. It is not possible. Not now, not anytime near, heck we can’t even get an oil spill contained for several months, and we can’t prevent our levies from breaking in a hurricane, mind control is all subject of Hollywood movies and science fiction stories. Science isn’t advanced that far. If at all anything, it is all hyped up for getting funding for R&D project, there are so many wasteful projects like that.

  342. #344 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 5:23 PM

    Javed Khan,

    The world is at a dangerous croassroads. New possibilities have arisen that man has never thought of before. Not only can humans be controlled through machines like that, but also machines that can be controlled by human thought alone, that is, they will do what you think them to. This is the stuff of present and future powers. Not only the Americans are advanced in these technologies but so are the Russians.

  343. #345 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 5:26 PM

    Bichoo,

    This is not science fiction. This man here can tell you, and assure you, that this is the present state of science. The reason that mainstream scientists can’t replicate this are twofold:

    1) Computers aren’t as advanced
    2) Money will always flow, from the top, in worthless direction so that mainstrea scientists aren’t able to replicate it

  344. #346 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 5:31 PM

    This program is 14 years old. At 20 minues it says about the mind control program.

  345. #347 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 29, 2011 - 6:49 PM

    Between, Laxman and Dravid they played 90 balls and scored 20 runs, that is OK to keep wickets in hand at this crucial moments, but Mukund? The less you talk about his batting style the better it is.

    Sagaat

    see Bichoo has also agreed with me that they do all these antics to get R&D funds.

  346. #348 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 7:09 PM

    Javed Khan,

    This is not mainstream scientists claiming they can do it, this is the NSA which has already developed these technologies. I have referred to the military patent in one of the above documentaries which implies that ivoices can be transmitted in the head. But that is the only thing that US govt has officially released insofar as the mind control technology is concerned.

  347. #349 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 10:27 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Look at what they are doing in Canada!!

    http://www.usatrace.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=15614

    The technology, though advanced, is very simply and almost every advanced country has it. I have no idea why it is being kept secret though? Maybe because of the TIs (targeted individuals) throughout the world on which these experiments were based to perfect the technology? But I think the only way to handle this technology is to let the people of the world know about this technology, so that it comes under strict regulation. I think that would be he most significant step forward in ensuring that we uphold individuals rights and human dignity.

  348. #350 by Sagaat on July 29, 2011 - 10:38 PM

    Here are all the patents and hard evidence:

    http://www.rexresearch.com/sublimin/sublimin.htm

  349. #351 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 11:26 PM

    Sagaat,

    There are so many such prototypes that scientists at agencies develop, that doesn’t mean all of them are going to work, or even make sense. NSA has so many projects, and there is so much more they want to do. Just because it is NSA doesn’t make it legit. They too want to the funds just like any other Govt agency. They all want the R&D funds and are constantly going up in front of committees and commissions to show case their work. Of course, they all believe their projects will succeed. But most of them are just trial and error, and a lot of money is wasted. They would of course write up nice papers with lot of math and scientific formulas to show case their work, these are all brilliant scientists, but again some things are just pie in the sky. Like mind control. I agree with Javed Khan, human mind is the most complex thing ever, we still don’t understand everything about it, let alone beginning to control it.

    Yaar, Sagaat, just because there are patents and research papers don’t prove anything. One can come up with research papers to pretty much show case anything.

  350. #352 by Bichoo on July 29, 2011 - 11:33 PM

    India must bat positively if they were to get control of this test. It was OK to play out the day today without losing wickets as the wicket was doing a lot, but tomorrow they must be careful not to throw away wickets in the morning, and then go on looking for runs. Tendulkar especially owes a big one and should take the leadership to get runs, as should Dravid, and Laxman. Yuvraj and Raina should not think they are there for the journey, and must attack and play positive. If they attack then field will spread and they can put together quick 70-80 runs in no time, and then ease into making more runs. This is what Broad and Swann did today, at 8 down for 124 they had nothing to lose and they went swinging their bat at everything, when they connect a few and get runs it becomes easier.

    Somehow, I felt India was too passive at Lords. Dhoni must show positive energy. Somehow I feel everything is not well in the Indian camp. Lot of players are showing sings of things not going well. I may be reading too much into things. But just from body language it appears there are frictions between Dhoni and other players.

    If India put up 300+ runs then they will be in a good position. But to get there they must play positively.

  351. #353 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 12:01 AM

    Bichoo,

    It IS true. What you don’t understand is that if there were sufficient evidence, then it would be common knowledge. It isn’t because all the evidence hasn’t been released. But in time you will find that not only has the human brain be decoded, but the technology has also advancd enough so that countries can give earthquakes to other countries.

  352. #354 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 12:01 AM

    Sagaat : human brain is an enigma and it is not that easy for the NASA scientist or anyone else to claim that they can have control over someone’s mind without chemically altering the blood enzymes. Although in theory they have been able to explain that there is preconscious mind, unconscious mind and the subconscious mind. The first one is the active one which is aware of what we are doing even without noticing what we have to do i.e., related to movements of our limbs, eyes and our impulse and it keeps us guarding and preventing us from dangers even when we are sleeping.

    When we are sleeping we go into the unconscious mind and, the subconscious mind which deals more with abstract rather than with concrete, plays the role of taking our imaginations beyond the limits that is why in our dreams we are doing things beyond our capabilities like flying, diving from unbelievable heights etc., while the active mind is still active, and during our sleep if someone walks in to the room and quietly goes away without disturbing us the active mind catches the movement and sends messages to the unconscious and subconscious minds which are busy in showing us our dreams and when the message is sent across within a fraction of a second, the scene in our dreams changes, like if you see yourself flying you would suddenly be walking and that is because the active mind has sent a message without disturbing our sleep and altered our dreams, that is why there is no sequence in our dreams. Even during our sleep if we hear thunder and without waking up, the dream pattern is changed or, if an aircraft flies past and the dream pattern is altered because, the active mind has sent a message to the other two.

    Dreams are extremely short in terms of time, we can see a long dream in a fraction of a second. For e.g., during the day time once on a lazy Sunday I was sleeping after lunch and my 4 year old walks into the room and suddenly grabs my big toe with his nails and he said: ” KHAPP” like he bit my big toe and ate it. It may have taken hardly a second in him doing that. But, in my dream I saw, I was underwater and very deep inside a blue ocean and being chased by a shark and I am trying to come out on the surface of the water, in other words, I was swimming to get out of the water and I am struggling and struggling and as I almost reached to the top and took a deep breath to fill in my lungs with fresh oxygen and in the meantime the shark grabbed my big toe and gulped it and I was able to see the blood oozing out from my foot and I was so scared that I screamed and woke up. My little one got so excited and so happy that he has managed to scare his dad and ran out to brag about his achievement to his mother.

    The point I am trying to make is if I try to visualize the underwater scene and my swimming upwards to come out of the water and being chased by a shark looks like a very, very long dream to me. But, that dream started when my son walked in from the door to the bed my foot was 1.5 meters away from there and he bit my big toe with his nails (that too very gently) and it may not have taken more than a second. But, even after he bit my big toe with his nails, the dream continued and I saw the shark gulping my big toe and I saw the blood in the water, but there was no pain because I wasn’t experiencing reality, it was just a dream.

    This is the creation of my own mind and it is possible because, we see dreams every time we sleep – sometimes we don’t remember – that is another matter. However, implanting thoughts and someone’s ideas in my mind from a distance with a remote control is something I cannot believe. Using chemicals such as truth serum or any of the hypnotic or anesthetic drugs can alter the behaviour of our mind. Btw, do you know that the highest metabolism is in our brains, we consume 20% of the total energy which is higher than any organ in our body. The general notion was arteries take fresh blood with oxygen in it from our heart to our body and the Veins bring back the impure blood back and the process continues. They now say that the brain capillaries has a two way flow of blood ! These things are observed in the labs but, the one you are talking about is fiction and these crooks want more money in the name of R&D and enjoy a great lifestyle and fulfill their dreams.

  353. #355 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 12:16 AM

    Sagaat

    Yaar, in the early 1980′s there was such a shore sharaba when a scientist came up with some new invention. Basically he was talking about our voices in the shape of a sound, he claimed that whatever we have uttered in this Universe, seems like it has disappeared, but in reality all these words and voices not only ours but, our ancestors, forefathers and even the Prophet’s voices are there just like the radio waves. All we need is an instrument and a frequency to decode it and reproduce it on an instrument. Just like radio. Some of the Muslim optimistic blokes suddenly jumped into that debate and said, IT IS CONTAINED IN THE QURAN IN SOME SURAH THAT WE (ALLAH) HAS SAID, THAT WE HAVE RECORDED EVERYTHING IN THIS OPEN BOOK. And, they referred this open book to the Universe. It is more than 25 years since that scientist talked about it and nothing happened.

    Also, during the same time one of the Jewish scientists who was working on speech therapy for dumb and mute people came up with the idea that he will make them converse freely by the help of a gadget that can be tied on their stomachs and that gadget can transfer speech into vibrations and vibrations into speech, so when they speak to each other through vibrations, they can understand each other like normal people. And, they can also communicate with us like normal people. Where is that gadget? It is easy to talk about it only to get attention and funds and to continue their passion which is R&D.

  354. #356 by Bichoo on July 30, 2011 - 12:17 AM

    Sagaat,

    LOL .. so I don’t understand because I am too naive like a simpleton sitting in a couch watching TV, but you do because? Let me guess because you read those research papers and convinced about the hard evidence, or is it because you are privy to information that has not been released, that you have first hand knowledge

    If that is the first part, then I have nothing more to say to you, it is naive first of all for you to think what I can understand and what I cannot, based on just a few responses on a blog.

    If it is the second part, then I question your intelligence and integrity. If you have been exposed to any part of confidential information, you should keep your mouth shut tight. Rule #1 in the business. For instance, I won’t even confirm or deny I have knowledge to any Govt. programs. Either way, you will never get me to discuss even with a fake name and e-mail addy to confirm or deny information I am exposed to or not exposed to

    So, for all you know I may be simpleton sitting in the couch watching TV wash over me, or I might have a lot of background on secret programs, but you will not get me to talk about whether it is a (1) or (2). This is how you should conduct yourself. If you don’t have it then go on blabber all over the internet, no one cares, or who knows, do you hear the sound of black helicopters hovering around :)

  355. #357 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 12:28 AM

    Bichoo,

    There is a third possibility. Read that information about targeted individuals. I’ll be honest they gave me the time of my life (literally)….

  356. #358 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 12:34 AM

    Javed Khan,

    Not only can your dreams be seen at a computer (you are limiting your imagination to the laws of nature, such as, gravity etc whereas a camera is not limited by it!), your memories can also be retrieved.

    A thousand years ago no-one would have thought a camera could take a picture (and reproduce reality and store it) and likewise now nobody can believe that images in our visual cortex can be resurrected using a computer.

  357. #359 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 12:54 AM

    Bichoo,

    The only reason I do it is to raise awareness so that those stuck in the trap can some day get released. I was fortunate that my controllers were good people. Not everyone is as fortunate. But I saw the technology in full depth as a TI….I can assure you of its efficacy and potential for people who are mentally ill or handicapped. This techniology has the potential for the greatest good that can be done to mankind as well as the greatest evil.

  358. #360 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 2:09 AM

    Sagaat

    So, what you are saying is, you got trapped by those controllers and they have used your memory in whichever way they could and now you are a targeted individual, rather a victim and they are still using you to convince others? Am I right? :D

  359. #361 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 2:29 AM

    Javed Khan,

    They have left me to my ways. You know why? Because you, or anyone, will never believe it! Remember the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making the world believe it never existed. But you don’t skim read, right?

    Here’s a list of other victims and their accounts:

    http://mindcontrolvictim.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-10-14T00%3A57%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=7

  360. #362 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 2:45 AM

  361. #363 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 3:26 AM

    Javed Khan,

    First of all they aren’t trying to convince anyone! Their job is to make sure that the public doesn’t know about the technology. The first article I posted is a lawsuit against the NSA in which the author, a former NSA agent, named Akwai, also cites many sources for his claims. NSA doesn’t want this technology to be known to the general public, but the TI’s (people who have been randomly targeted and tortured) want the public to know about this technology. Note that the govt isn’t claiming that it can be done, rather the govt is claiming that it CANNOT be done.

  362. #364 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 6:41 AM

    Sagaat

    Probably all these people are mental cases who assume that “they” are coming, like, “the Aliens” are coming. There are many degrees of schizophrenia and different levels in different individuals and all have suffered mental diseases and they strongly believe that they are OK or they were OK sometime back but, right now someone is abusing them and torturing them. It is a condition of the mind that make them believe that their own thoughts are real and they will never recover unless treated properly. I am sure you must be knowing about people with bipolar disease and split personality? They also behave in a similar way but, every individual behaves differently. There are so many of them who are treated with different kinda medication and have you heard about lithium management? That is, they are treated to keep their chemical imbalances in their mind under control, that is why there is an expression that, there is a very thin line between sanity and insanity.

    My first response to your query was “I am not a hypochondriac,” these people are not similar to the bipolar people but, they start believing that they are having that disease, not only that particular disease but, any disease. There are paranoids and there are hypochondriacs. The former is afraid of doing anything and the later, if you talk about any illnesses such as stomach ulcer, the next time their stomach is upset they start believing that they have an ulcer. You talk about someone having a cancer and with such and such symptoms, they start believing that even they have the same kinda cancer.

    The cases that you are talking about and those mentioned in those links that you have posted are perhaps the war victims also those with a very weak mind who can easily be trapped and controlled like by way of hypnosis, but that requires a face to face interaction and drugs that induce hypnosis and blah, blah. And, the people who are posing as scientists may also belong to the same category with the only difference being, they are on the giving end and not the receiving end. May be they think their lives are just like X-Files and they are the role models, “THEY” are not here to convince anyone, YET there are a few who believe in “THEM” this “they and them” theory is just fictional and not real.

    You’ve talked about them knowing about gravity. The truth is man has not been able to understand what gravity is, otherwise they would have been defying it. The Devil may have convinced some people i.e., according to science IF the devil existed. According to science these people are the victims of chemical imbalances in their mind and they are trapped in it, are you? :D Some times we all are in one way or the other but, our mind has the power to over-power The Satanic Verses and the Devilish Intentions. :-) That is why we are “Ashraf ul Maqlooqat” The best of all HIS creations.

  363. #365 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 7:08 AM

    Sagaat

    If I tell you that you skim read, it is a fact :D but, I don’t so after reading those articles, it reminded me of Matt Damon’s movies: Jason Bourne in the hit action thrillers The Bourne Identity, The Bourne Supremacy, and The Bourne Ultimatum. Also about Mulder and Scully of X-Files i.e., the roles played by David William Duchovny and Gillian Leigh Anderson. Honestly speaking, I don’t believe in it.

    As regards the breaking up of the former USSR and leaking of the top secret information being sold, there are so many stories and rumours based on a few small transactions that took place in weapon sales and most big ideas that were talked about even in the commercial sector never materialized because, they were in the so-called developing stages, that Russian Politburo was stronger than the current mafia and they may have experimented human torture but, there is nothing concrete. The torture of POW’s is very common and even the Geneva Convention cannot do anything, if they have, then what happened in Abu Gharib jail in Iraq may not have happened.

  364. #366 by Konquest on July 30, 2011 - 7:41 AM

    Sagaat

    I was thinking you would be speaking about controversial secret organisations, think tanks and their association with the media (if they exist).

    But this is just crazy.

    I think this is something to do with possible unfulfilled desires associated with Monica Bellucci, it is sending voices in your mind and previously it sent 18+ and R rated images in your mind ;)

  365. #367 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 8:17 AM

    Javed Khan,

    So now you are implying I am a nutcase?

    I am sure time will tell. I don’t know if we will get to the bottom of this in Javed Khan’s lifetime, but I am sure we will get to the bottom of this in Khansahab’s lifetime.

    Btw preliminary thought-reading devices are in mainstream research. Once the basic idea is formed, then you can add a whole multitude of images and dimensions by measuring the patterns of bloodflow.

    http://pinktentacle.com/2008/12/scientists-extract-images-directly-from-brain/

    But what the NSA has is much more advanced than this. It is based on electrical currents in the brain which can be measured using EKG’s (or remotely using advanced forms of EKGs). This is what artificial intelligence is all about:
    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread410929/pg1

    http://www.surveillanceissues.com/surveill.htm

  366. #368 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 8:29 AM

    Javed Khan,

    The people in history channel are stupid enough, or perhaps have bipolar disorder, to devote a whole documentary to this. Btw in the discovery channel video after 20 minutes that scientist that changes the state of the brain is a nutcase too (probably a schizophrenic). What the Japanese are doing above is to get more money for research. And, btw, all the scientists collectively have conspired to get money from the US govt (that explains the patents). Wow, you are certainly open to possibilites. But I don’t blame you. If I were in your place, I would probably be skeptical, too.

    But, despite all this, the unfortunate part is that it is true. We are robots. LOL.

  367. #369 by Bichoo on July 30, 2011 - 12:50 PM

    Sagaat,

    I nearly fell out of chair when I read your account that you were targeted and your controllers released you. I don’t want to be disrespectful and ridicule you, but I hope you are joking, or making this up to convince us. Because if this is serious then there has to be much more authoritative voices up against this rather than a few nuts jobs claiming on internet blogs that they were tortured. I read the account where one person is claiming they were tortured using such a devise in a Bhutanese prison. Now that is a dead giveaway that these are nut jobs. Come on for real, Bhutan having a devise like this? their Government probably don’t even have money to pay next months bills. None of those links appear having any credibility. It’s like the movie Men in Black where they flashed a devise in your face and you forgot everything that you saw about Aliens. Many individuals claim these sort of things, but those are generally related to hallucinations of the brain.

  368. #370 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 2:43 PM

    Yes Sagaat we are all robots made out of PVC which is closer to animal flesh which we eat and they have filled in red wine in our bodies and some gray matter in the upper chamber in which they have implanted certain devices through which they control us. So what is your generic name R2D2 or what? I mean what the controllers call you? :D

    Btw, Good Morning!

  369. #371 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 2:47 PM

    Once again it is DRAVID guiding India through and once again Tendulkar failed, he better rest for at least a week to recover fully from that viral infection. Laxman and UV did their job and UV is still there, so there is some respectability to Indian total and they should not get complacent here. They must continue the lead to 150 runs plus which means, they have to score 375 runs and the first target should be to play throughout the day and it is tea time by now. Let us see what Paddu Kon Hai ka Dhoni kya kerta hai?

  370. #372 by Bichoo on July 30, 2011 - 2:48 PM

    Javed Khan, LOL @ 370

    I am being controlled, helpppppppp :) :) :)

  371. #373 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 2:52 PM

    I can propose a good generic name or, robotic name for you :D

    SA2-GA2
    (Pronounced as Saatoo Gaatoo)

  372. #374 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 3:16 PM

    Newguy,

    The experiments are global, but the technology is not. All you need is a satellite to be able to do it in any part of the world.

    You guys can believe what you want. I don’t blame you, because I wouldn’t have believed if I were in your place. It takes a leap of faith to believe it based on the circumstantial evidence I have provided. You are also not going to believe the weather warfare armory that exists. A Pakistani scientist, highly regarded, wrote about weather warfare recently (he was debunked by the more rational Pakistani scientist named Pervez Hoodhboy). Whether he was accurate or not, I can’t vouch for that, as I don’t have first-hand knowledge about it. But I do believe it is true just because of the capabilities present in the mind control program. The reason being that technology and computers are way more advanced than what mainstream science has to offer. It is a testament to human ingenuity that 50 years of directed research has decoded the secrets of the brain; the claims of weather warfare are not too far-fetched within this context.

    In any case if you guy are saying whether I can prove it, I can’t. But I can tell you what it entails, and what can be done using the technology, based on first-hand experience.

  373. #375 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 3:42 PM

    Just one question. You do believe the experiments that have carried in mainstream science, such as, that scientist changing the state of the brain in the discovery channel link, a monkey moving an arm to get food by just thinking about it, in the history channel link, or the Japanese research link I have posted above? Secondly, you realize that that bill is by an American Congressman which asks for an end to nonconsensual use of space-based weapons? You’d obviously think he is a nut, too!

  374. #376 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 4:24 PM

    It seems like there are two Indian teams that bat: The one with Dravid and the one without Dravid. The wall played a remarkable innings again.

  375. #377 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 5:07 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Not only has Dravid outperformed Tendulkar in these important situations, but Tendulkar has already played 5 times in this series. One catch was dropped and plumb lbx not given in the previous match. So, in the previous match he at least batted 4 times. That makes it 5 attempts to come to terms with the moving ball and the pressure situation.

  376. #378 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 7:35 PM

    “a monkey moving an arm to get food by just thinking about it, in the history channel link, or the Japanese research link I have posted above?”

    Sagaat that is a very old theory about PHANTOM LIMB PAIN in humans, have you not heard about how humans feel pain in their arm which is not there? Here is an excerpt from a medical journal, want details?

    “she felt excruciating pain in her missing arm. While there was no arm she could see, she felt it always there, twisted, deformed with the fingers clawed in a tight fist. She described the pain as burning, lightning and at time freezing running through her fingers, while she felt the upper arm squeezed in a tight vice. She was suffering from serious “phantom limb” pain, a term we attribute to a pain in a ghost limb, a limb that has been amputated but is “still there”.

  377. #379 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 7:39 PM

    Sagaat

    Agreed on Tendulkar and Dravid. Just look at this, the man is criticized left, right and centre for not being in form, while he is at the fag end of his career and yet he comes to England and scores two centuries in two test matches, I salute Dravid for his valiant effort against the swing bowling in English conditions. Forget about Tendulkar, what is DHONI doing? I think he needs to be shown the way to the exit door. He has been banking only on his past glories and his celebrity status.

  378. #380 by Bichoo on July 30, 2011 - 9:22 PM

    India has let the door open to bring England back into the game, and the main culprit is Dhoni. What reckless shot he played to get out and start the collapse, India is making the “Broad” into a superman. First with the bat he took them to a decent score then with the ball he brought India from a strong position to something that gives England a chance. India had a good chance when Dhoni came to the crease to play out the day and resume tomorrow and finish with a total from where they could not lose. Dhoni should be shown the door along with CrapBhajan, but that will not happen, everyone knows this.

    What a performance by Dravid though, there is not enough words to describe what he did, to play the swinging ball and make a hundred where even the English batsmen who are brought on this type of surfaces found difficult is something else. I will give Tendulkar a pass since both Dravid and Laxman performed, and there have been times when Dravid failed and Tendulkar performed to hold India up last year, especially against South Africa and Australia. Same for Laxman, when he has performed in matches that Dravid, Tendulkar failed. Among these three two have to click again for India in second innings.

    India carrying too many passengers in this test, I don’t see how they can win. Let’s take count: Mukund – useless player, walking wicket. Bhajji – crap bowler, crap batsman, totally worthless, Dhoni – crap with bat, mediocre keeper, Raina – OK, hit or miss, UV – OK, hit or miss. Seamers are doing fine. PK, Sree, and Ishant are doing their job.

    England is not much better, except for the “Broad” who is coming in handy. Is he really that good, or India making him look better. I think the latter, combined with some luck. I predict his form won’t last too long.

  379. #381 by Konquest on July 30, 2011 - 9:37 PM

    Bichoo

    I think Broad is just starting to peak, and I think he will be a very influential player. His improving batting will give him a lot of confidence.

    What is the point of commenting on SRT’s calibre on the basis of 3 innings within the same series? I think he should be left alone. He cannot be dropped, he plays as the team’s best batsman. There is always a big score around the corner for him. He could not score under pressure and this is something that has been identified by many people, including you and Pawan. It does not change his significance to the team.

    Dravid, Laxman and SRT are all different types of players. In Test cricket you play better knocks if you can defend and not feel the urge to create strokes. In limited overs overs you are better if you attack and create strokes. That is why SRT is so good in ODI’s- this is the same for attacking players like Ponting, Jayasuria, Smith etc.

    I think you’re being too harsh on Dhoni and Harbhajan. Dhoni is one of the best finishers in the game at the moment, whether it is Test or ODI, let’s not forget that. Harbhajan is also valuable because his batting has improved manifold and even if the pitch is not assisting his bowling, the fact that he has played in England before probably makes him more attractive an option than Mishra.

    Dhoni has won India more matches than SRT. I agree that if India wants to win the series then Dhoni will need to score- basically Yuvraj and Dhoni need to contibute with the bat and the pacers need to maintain consistency. Big knocks will continue from Laxman, Dravid and SRT.

  380. #382 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 30, 2011 - 10:40 PM

    Konquest, I don’t think Dhoni has won more matches for India than Tendulkar did. U better check the stats and I am sure Tendulkar is heads and shoulders above Dhoni. Dhoni’s career is hardly 7 years as compared to Tendulkar’s 20 odd years and you think Dhoni has won more matches? Impossible. And, Dhoni is in the team because of him being the captain, because of his past glories and because of his celebrity status which I have already said and repeating it to make my point again.

    Imagine if it was Dinesh Karthik they would have dropped him (they already did) long time ago. Dhoni is a mediocre keeper and I agree with Bichoo. And, what is the point of playing Harbhajan when he is mentally somewhere else? Get someone else like Ashwin or whoever that spinner guy is and, why label players like they are only ODI or T20 players? There was this guy called Jaffer the opening batsman, wonder what happened to him?

    I want them to give Tendulkar a rest in the 3rd test so that he recovers fully from that viral infection.

    As regards Dravid, the more you talk about his qualities the less it is to describe him. He was labelled as a test player only because of his impenetrable defense and was called THE WALL. In ODI’s he has got a very decent record which not many players have. Then, they said, he is not a T20 player and dropped him. When he played IPL, he proved them wrong by scoring 60-70 odd runs at a strike rate of over 150. Yes, Laxman failed as a T20 player and he failed in the IPL too.

  381. #383 by Sagaat on July 30, 2011 - 10:49 PM

    Bichoo,

    Dhoni and Harbajan will at some point in time win matches. Dhoni plays well under pressure. Harbajan’s record is such that either he takes 0 or 1 one wicket or he takes a whole bag of wickets and wins the match. Both of these are matchwinners and don’t deserve criticism. True, Dhoni could be more consistent like Tendulkar but at the same time not everyone is everything: As Tendulkar would admit, winning a match, just like being consistent, is a very different thing altogether.

  382. #384 by Sagaat on July 31, 2011 - 3:43 AM

    “Sagaat that is a very old theory about PHANTOM LIMB PAIN in humans, have you not heard about how humans feel pain in their arm which is not there? Here is an excerpt from a medical journal, want details?”

    Yaar Javed Khan I hope you have seen the documentary I posted from the History Channel? Within it a monkey is able to move a mechanical arm (not his own) just by thinking about it. The arm picks up food and gives it back to the monkey.

    What theJapanese experiment shows is that, mainstream scientific research might be able to accomplish this as well: Tap into our dreams. I am not sure about its efficacy though as it isn’t following the same route as what I, and many others, are claiming is the goverment mind control program. In the former, they are using bloodflow patterns to predict images in the head (using an MRI scan), whereas in the latter it is believed they are using electrical currents formed in our brain to map out our brain activity.

    What the scientist in the discovery channel video could do was to change the state of the brain: make it release opiates to make a person “feel good” or to activate other regions to, say, induce fear or activate some other brain state by activating/deactivating a part of the brain. Can only not this be used to condition you or I into a robot? Suppose conditioning a person by providing him a certain stimulus and mapping it with a certain brain activity repeatedly (such as a ‘feel good’ feeling each time a person kills someone) could produce, hypothetically speaking, totally different types of people, driven by a completely different set of rewards and punishments. Doesn’t that seem plausible? And, this was possible in 1998!

    .

  383. #385 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 4:21 AM

    Ian Chappel on Dhoni

    The surprise is not that India could lose their No. 1 Test ranking but rather how they managed to retain it so long.

    At the time when India reached the No. 1 spot they didn’t have the look of a long-term resident. Unlike the two previous teams that held the top ranking for lengthy periods, India do not have a strong bowling attack. West Indies and Australia not only had four top-class bowlers in their sides, but also a couple of replacements who would have been frontline bowlers in most other Test teams.

    India have mostly only fielded three good Test bowlers. Zaheer Khan is undoubtedly the leader of the attack, and Ishant Sharma and Harbhajan Singh have provided occasional glimpses of class, but both are inconsistent. Sreesanth, as he was at Trent Bridge, can be both devastating and disappointing on the same day.

    Despite an exceptionally strong batting line-up, India, because their attack has never been dominant, have always given the appearance of being a squatter rather than an owner.

    So how have India survived so long at No. 1? The attacking threat of Virender Sehwag has helped enormously. However, a large chunk of India’s success can be put down to the shrewd manoeuvring of the captain MS Dhoni.

    Dhoni has managed to get the best out of his bowlers. When Zaheer has been out with injury, Dhoni has still found a way to mix and match well enough to beat the opposition. It has helped that Zaheer was available for the toughest challenges against Australia and South Africa. So it’s no surprise that with him missing from most of the action at Lord’s, India struggled against a strong England side.

    Lord’s provided India with a double-whammy because Sehwag was also missing. The fact that Dhoni inserted the opposition at Lord’s is an indication of how much Sehwag means to India. It was also probably the first sign that even the strong-minded Dhoni was starting to doubt India’s bowling. He must have felt that India’s underdone attack, especially Zaheer, who was returning from injury, would need all the help they could get, and consequently bowled first under cloudy skies.

    Any doubts a captain might have, no matter how hard he tries to disguise them, will show up somewhere in his actions. His own team will most likely suspect he has doubts, and the opposition, if they’re any good, will be sure of it.

    Dhoni is nothing if not a fighter but the odds are mounting. In the field, his ageing side has bigger cracks than a slip zone; his own keeping has regressed enormously and his bowlers are susceptible to attack

    England were quickly aware of Dhoni’s doubts. After proceeding cautiously, they pounced when the time was right. A hungry cheetah couldn’t have done a better job of plotting and executing the kill.

    In keeping India at the top for so long, Dhoni has well and truly fulfilled the most important role of a captain. He has made his team better and got the best out of the players.

    However, with Zaheer injured, Sehwag missing, Harbhajan waning and an ageing fielding side gifting runs, Dhoni is currently like the boy at the dyke; every time he plugs a leak another appears.

    He managed to plug another hole by giving his bowlers first opportunity on a favourable surface at Trent Bridge. However, the doubts crept in near the end of England’s innings, and once again India are fighting to cling to their No. 1 ranking.

    Dhoni is nothing if not a fighter but the odds are mounting. In the field, his ageing side has bigger cracks than a slip zone; his own keeping has regressed enormously and his bowlers are susceptible to attack.

    England are aware of the bowlers’ weaknesses, and will take every opportunity to exploit it. If Dhoni can keep this series level until the cavalry arrives, i.e. Sehwag and Zaheer, he will have performed a captaincy miracle.

    To date Dhoni’s greatest achievement as Indian captain has been to guide the team to a magnificent World Cup victory. If his team is still at the top of the Test rankings after this series with England, he will have surpassed that monumental achievement.

  384. #386 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 31, 2011 - 5:08 AM

    I don’t understand why Ian Chappel always praises Dhoni – and always criticized Afridi very severely – To me it is something more than meets the eye, Ian Chappel can see that the BCCI is the richest board and has a lot of clout, so he has in general talked about a losing side, which everyone does but, he praised Dhoni’s captaincy which is beyond my comprehension. He is definitely up to something.

  385. #387 by Konquest on July 31, 2011 - 12:25 PM

    The match has reached a very interesting point. This is make or break for both teams, 2-3 quick wickets today and India will win, and if only 1 or 2 wickets fall in the next session then England will be in the driving seat.

  386. #388 by Konquest on July 31, 2011 - 12:31 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    I agree with you that Dhoni and Harbhajan are match winners, I think Bhajji is criticised unfairly too much. His problem is that he is too hot headed, but talent wise he is an asset for India.

    India has not become the no 1 team just because of Sehwag and Gambhir and Harbhajan and Zaheer. Dhoni’s captaincy has also played a huge part. Plus, he is probably the best finisher in the game along with Hussey.

  387. #389 by Konquest on July 31, 2011 - 12:34 PM

    Afridi, Akhtar denied PCB contracts

    Karachi: In a major shake up, the Pakistan Cricket Board has omitted around five leading players, including former captain Shahid Afridi, from the list of new centrally contracted players for the next six-month term.

    According to well placed sources in the PCB the board had finalised the list of players to be awarded central contracts from July to December and it does not include atleast six players who were given contracts in the first half of 2011.

    “The likes of Shahid Afridi and Shoaib Akhtar are out because they have announced their retirements while players like Kamran Akmal, Abdul Razzaq and Ahmed Shahzad have not got the nod from the selectors this time because of number of issues, mainly inconsistent form and performances,” one source disclosed.

    The source added that former captain Shoaib Malik could get a central contract if he is cleared by the integrity committee for national selection on August 15.

    “The finalised list includes some new names but the major omissions are Razzaq and Kamran because of their performances,” he said.

    He also confirmed that the board had not followed ICC Task Force’s advise on Pakistan cricket while finalising the list of new contracts.

    The ICC Task Force had suggested that PCB should only award contracts to 20 players but the board has decided to ignore this recommendation because of its own policies.

    Interestingly, Afridi, Razzaq, Akhtar and Kamran had all been given A category contracts by the board in the first half of the year, which entitled them to get a monthly retainer of around 250,000 rupees.

    “Younus Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq, Umar Gul, Mohammad Hafeez, Saeed Ajmal and perhaps Malik will get A category contracts while the rest will get contracts in the B and C categories,” the source said.

    Taufeeq Umar, Imran Farhat, Umar Akmal, Adnan Akmal, Sarfaraz Ahmed, Asad Shafiq, Azhar Ali, Sohail Tanvir, Junaid Khan, Sohail Khan, Abdul Rehman, Tanvir Ahmed, Wahab Riaz and Junaid Khan are among the remaining players expected to get new contracts.

    “Players like Khurrum Manzoor, Aizaz Cheema, Fawad Alam etc are likely to get retainers not contracts,” the source said.

  388. #390 by Bichoo on July 31, 2011 - 12:38 PM

    The game most certainly at a tipping point. Yesterday I said India let the door open for England to come back, and Dhoni was the main culprit who started the collapse with a reckless shot. I stand by that. Dhoni has been pathetic in Test matches recently and what’s worse he has not shown any intent to stay at the wicket at such crucial junctures in the game.

    England with Bell playing fluently and KP slowly settling in are building up from where they can control the game. It’s a shame to even think that after dominating for two days of the Test, India has allowed this situation.

    Next session will pretty much decide the fate of the game. Another 100 runs for 1 or 2 wickets and England will be in driver seat. India need at least 4 wickets in next session to come back to the game.

    As for Dhoni’s captaincy, he goes very defensive when opposition is on the attack, he waits for things to happen.

    Dhoni hasn’t won any Test matches with his batting. This is what I said earlier. Dinesh Karthik is a better keeper and batsman than Dhoni at this time. But you can’t change captain I guess. Dhoni is there because he ended up riding on past glories. It is clear that Dhoni is taking it easy after the WC win. He is too busy raising money for his wife’s charity and building their legacy. He is planning his eventual retirement from Test cricket.

    Mark my words, Dhoni will step down from Test cricket by himself much sooner than everyone thinks, he is already preparing for it. He is already a multi millionaire and he will focus on ODI / T20 / IPL. This alone will keep the money flowing through his celebrity status, and he is building up his charity, so that he can be known even after he retires. Dhoni hatest Test cricket.

  389. #391 by Bichoo on July 31, 2011 - 12:42 PM

    England does look like the better team of the two under these conditions, and in fact they look like the best team under most conditions except in Sub-continent. SA is the only non-subcontinental team with the ability to win a Test series there. Therefore even England cannot be called the best team. As for India, they have been just about good enough not to get beaten by SA in SA, and beat the weaker teams like WI and NZ at their home.

    I know it is still premature to call the series, but looking at the fight this England side is showing, and their depth in batting and bowling, it looks like they will take the series and the #1 spot from India.

  390. #392 by Konquest on July 31, 2011 - 12:42 PM

    Bichoo

    If Dhoni steps down from Test cricket I don’t see India chasing scores in 4th innings to win matches, because Dhoni is the guy who has been making that happen.

  391. #393 by Konquest on July 31, 2011 - 12:44 PM

    Ian Bell is a very important player for England, when he hits form he scores quickly and plays well under pressure.

  392. #394 by Bichoo on July 31, 2011 - 12:52 PM

    Konquest,

    What are you talking about? Tell me one instance where Dhoni helped chase a 4th innings total in Test cricket. I think you are confusing Dhoni with Laxman. Dhoni do not have a single knock of significance in Test cricket.

  393. #395 by Konquest on July 31, 2011 - 12:57 PM

    Bichoo

    I have just checked Statsguru and you are right, he only has a few significant 3rd or 4th innings scores. I take my words back.

    But he remains a good captain and a valuable middle order batsman nevertheless. In Tests he averages 45 in matches won and 27 in matches lost.

  394. #396 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 1:10 PM

    Bichoo,

    Relax. India are still favorites to win the match. If you remember in the first innings, England collapsed from 70-odd for 2 to 130-odd for 8. Then India collapsed from 4-down to all out.

    If England can get to 270-odd lead this is going to be even stevens. That is because Tendulkar is due a knock and Dravid is in sublime form.

  395. #397 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 1:20 PM

    Must watch, journalist exposing corruption and mismanagement in Pakistan:

  396. #398 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 1:20 PM

    Konquest,

    Dhoni is perhaps not as good a test player in ‘foreign conditions’ as it meets the eye. But nevertheless he is invaluable as a captain and as a player. From our perspective, we have beared with someone like Kamran Akmal, whereas from Bichoo’s perspective he compares Dhoni with Adam Ghilcrist.

    As a captain winning the world cup,. holding the number 1 test ranking without having bowlers who average less than 30– they are quite a bit of achievement. The fact that both the number 1 and 2 ranked team have barely any bowlers with average less than 30 also shows that the standard of cricket is not as high as probably a decade ago. In any case, Dhoni averages around 50 in one days and is close to Tendulkar as a batsman. I don’t know what more people can ask from him? 20/20 world cup, one day world cup, and number 1 test ranking as captain?

  397. #399 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 1:27 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    I agree, he is a top quality cricketer and have you noticed how calm he appears in pressure?

    I want to ask you this- do you think Pakistan is a better Test side than New Zealand, West Indies and Sri Lanka?

  398. #400 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 1:35 PM

    Konquest,

    Yes, he is very calm under pressure and knows how to rotate his bowlers under pressure. Nearly every decisiion he has made in tough situations has turned out correct in hindisight. He is the greatest Indian cricketer imo.

    Pakistan and West Indies are probably equal test teams. I don’t think Pakistan is comparable to Sri Lanka and New Zealand may be slightly better. They talk about poor management, but Pakistan simply isn’t producing talent like it used to. If Gul is the lead bowler, then he is very unreliable and almost always folds under pressure. I wouldn’t play him in my team. If Umar Akmal is the best batsman, then we can see that cricket is going down the drain fast in the country. Umar Akmal is like Tamim Iqbal and statistics actually support that view. Bangladesh is a better batting team imo.

  399. #401 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 1:49 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    I also would not play Gul anymore, simply because of his extreme inconsistency. I also have doubts about U Akmal, he seems to make 30, 40 very easily but he has been in the side for 2 years and cannot play match winning knocks.

    I wonder if Hafeez and Razzaq are the best batsmen in the team at the moment. Shafiq is a 30 run player, does not show intent to score.

  400. #402 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 1:50 PM

    England taking the initiative from India, lead of about 150 now with right wickets to spare. India will find chasing 300 very difficult.

  401. #403 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 1:50 PM

    Konquest,

    Did you see Nasser Hussain versus Ravi Shastri? LOL as usual Ravi Shastri blabbering, implying that Hussain was making comments on the DRS because he was jealous of India. The fact is that India has gone on a binge to remove umpires that make wrong decisions against them (as in the West Indies recently), whereas they deny the use of the DRS at the same time. If you remember when India visited Australia, this team of Shastri, Dugga, and company was critizing the decisions no end. The hypocrisy is relentless.

  402. #404 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 1:52 PM

    This is the time when captaincy becomes very important. India should have made a lot more than 288, and Dhoni now needs to lift his team. They are quickly losing spirit- without Zaheer Khan they are lacking the type of bowler who can take wickets at regular intervals. There is plenty of time in this match yet.

    The weather is not expected to be great from next week in England.

  403. #405 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 1:54 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    I didn’t notice that but I have heard both Shastri and Gavaskar are making biased statements in this series.

    I lost respect for Gavaskar a long time ago, but I liked Shastri. However he seems to be changing as well.

  404. #406 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 2:08 PM

    Pieterson gone, match again hanging in the balance.

  405. #407 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 2:12 PM

    Khansahab,

    I personally think Gasvaskar is all right as a commentator. He is didactic but gives good insights. Shastri has the usual things he says. Shastri is in, sort of, lala land these days.

  406. #408 by Bichoo on July 31, 2011 - 2:13 PM

    Sagaat / Konquest,

    England is in control, plenty of batsman to come all the way down to #9. They are also going at almost 4 runs and over. India will find it very hard to chase 350+ which they will be looking at.

    As I said so many times since yesterday, India had match in control when Yuvraj left, but Dhoni came in and failed to press the advantage.

  407. #409 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 2:17 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    Have you seen Gavaskar lambaste the Australians, or Steve Bucknor (more importantly the latter)?

    There was a series when Bucknor gave SRT out when he was not out, and the whole Indian media ganged up against Bucknor and in fact this is rumoured to be the reason for Bucknor’s retirement.

    Gavaskar was furious and used inappropriate language against one of the finest umpires the game has seen. It doesn’t matter how big a player SRT is, the umpire’s decision must be respected and there was no hidden agenda on part of Bucknor to adjudicate SRT as out.

    This is a bit like when SRT was run out in a match against Pakistan when colliding with a bowler, the Indian spectators threw tantrums and objects at Pakistani players, the game had to be stopped. SRT had to personally attend the stands and calm the insane public. It is the batsman’s responsibility to watch where he his running, not the fielding side’s responsibility to make way for the batsman.

  408. #410 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 2:33 PM

    Konquest,

    If you are referring to that series in Australia where Bucknor also didn’t give Symonds out when he clearly nicked it, then as I remember, there was an outrage throughout India. Not only did Gasvaskar lambaste the Australians and Steve Bucknor but they made a show where Ravi Shastri, Gavaskar, Dugga, and company spoke out aginst the attitude of the Australians and the poor umpiring. I was convinced then that Indians were right and there was something awrong about the decision-making and the way the Australians behaved on the field. In hindsight though it is clear that they don’t want the DRS and want to threaten and remove umpires who make the odd wrong decision against them. Kamran Abbasi recently wrote a thread on how the abuse of power is an asian malady, and though he failed to construct a convincing argument to support that title, the point that the Indian Board is engaged in wholesale abuse of power remains true.

  409. #411 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 2:47 PM

    What a way for Bell to go. Unfortunate but match in the balance now. This is a good match for the neutral viewer.

  410. #412 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 2:52 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    Are you watching the match? Should the Indians have appealed a run out?

    Was it unsportsmanlike behaviour- or were England clearly careless?

  411. #413 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 3:01 PM

    Khansahab,

    I think its a bit of both. They shouldn’t have taken the bails off, but once they did, appeal or not, the batsman should have been given out.

    What do you think?

  412. #414 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 3:01 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    Bell must be your favourite player because all you need to do is to add “ucci” after his name.

  413. #415 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 3:04 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    I am just reading from the Cricinfo commentary- I don’t know how it happened live.

    But, perhaps India should not have appealed. They are the no 1 team and obviously don’t want to part with this rank, but as a no 1 team they should also show some sportsmanlike behaviour- otherwise what is the difference between them and Australia?

  414. #416 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 3:07 PM

    Khansahab,

    But the umpire is bound to give out if it is out, regardless of whether the team appeals or not?

    It happened once with Imran Khan that an Indian player was given out, but Imran Khan asked him to come back and bat because he was shaking his head. But apart from that can you imagine, if a batsman is bowled out, and stays on the crease, and the fielding team doesn’t appeal, the batsman would be given not out?

  415. #417 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 3:09 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    I thought the umpire only gave it out after the Indian team appealed.

    The way it was written made it seemed like how Inzamam was given out handling the ball.

  416. #418 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 3:10 PM

    Khansahab,

    But the umpire is bound to give out if it is out, regardless of whether the team appeals or not?

    This is strange. The appeal has been withdrawan.

  417. #419 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 31, 2011 - 3:11 PM

    Guys, I have missed the Bell run out, what happened? Could anyone care to explain, please! Thank you.

  418. #420 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 3:13 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    Can’t say for definite because I am not watching the match live.

    However the impression I received was that the umpire didn’t know what was happening and only gave it out after the appeal.

  419. #421 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 3:52 PM

    Truth is stranger than fiction

    Gavaskar is on fire today. He complained after Dhoni recalled Bell.

    He said that why is India blamed for being unsportsmanlike when no one applauded Dravid for his century? (I am assuming the English supporters did not applaud).

    He then said that now India has lost its grip on the match because of what has happened.

  420. #422 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 31, 2011 - 4:51 PM

    The lead is over 309 now and Prior is still batting with Bresnen and THE BROAD who is in form, is yet to come, India has certainly lost its grip and the chances are they will be struggling again!
    I have read the Bell incident on cricinfo.

  421. #423 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 31, 2011 - 4:54 PM

    Just look at this stupid analogy by some idiot of cricinfo, see what he wrote:

    Swapnil: “I place all the blame for the Bell-o-drama around tea-time solely on Rahul Dravid; had he not placed that shot supremely between extra-cover and mid-off yesterday Trott would never have injured himself and hence Bell would never have batted at number three!” Dravid is always the villain!

  422. #424 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 31, 2011 - 5:08 PM

    Game is certainly going out of India’s reach as Prior and Bresnen hitting Sharma and Bander with sixes and fours, I wonder what is Dhoni doing? Except for saying theek hai theek hai, aagay aa, peechay jaa, zara uppur daal, zera nicha khila………. all that blah blah and nothing concrete.

  423. #425 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 31, 2011 - 5:10 PM

    Josh may agaya, why don’t you choose the nick TIPU SULTAN? After all you are using his picture, so better use the name too. :D

  424. #426 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 6:24 PM

    Javed Khan

    Tipu Sultan would be a boring name. Plus if my fashion sense is old fashioned, or my headgear is a little dated, it doesnt mean you should start saying i have tipu sultans pic! People say i have a resemblance with him.

    Congats to England for winning this test.

  425. #427 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 6:48 PM

    Khansahab,

    Only if you keep a moustache ;)

    I agree that England will likely win this test. So yaar what is your infatuation with Katrina Kaif? You like her features or the whole thing?

    Btw I agree Kareena Kapoor is attractive.

  426. #428 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 6:53 PM

    Sagaat

    I look at the whole face and hair. I don’t look at individual features, because you have to feel attracted to the whole face, not individual features. I like the whole thing about her and I think she along with Aishwarya is the most beautiful Indian actress of all time.

    Kareena Kapoor is hot because she is the pinnacle of that state where a person is sexy, but is not “ghinona” or vulgar.

  427. #429 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 6:57 PM

    Khansahab,

    I think Katrina Kaif is all right but you overate her :P What is great about her features or hair, if you could explain? Certainly, you are implying that the sum of the parts is much greater?

    I would rather do it to Sushmita Sen rather than Katrina Kaif :)

  428. #430 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 6:59 PM

    Sagaat

    I like this one too:

    http://wallpapers.oneindia.in/d/124415-2/aarti-chhabria05.JPG

    I told you I don’t look at features, but she KK does not have any ugly features. Which of her features are ugly?

  429. #432 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 7:06 PM

    Khansahab,

    That one is indeed much better, the link you gave.

    The reason why I find Katrina mediocre is her face cut. Its a flat face, like a pancake (just like that actress of the show Big Boss, who has an extremely flat face and a wide nose). Honestly, that is the major reason. And, then, her nose is like Rana Naveed and not well-defined like, say, Madhuri. Those are the two reasons I find her mediocre.

    The link you gace, now that actress has a well-defined face cut and good features. Do you like a facwe-cut like Katrina?

  430. #433 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 7:06 PM

    Sagaat

    Your link can not open on my computer.

    Want to chat through email?

  431. #434 by Bichoo on July 31, 2011 - 7:06 PM

    Javed Khan,

    Game is out of India’s reach? that is an understatement. India has been thrashed black and blue, they have been violated on the ground all days today, and if you include the hat trick last evening, they have been totally annihilated. I think you are being polite.

    Either this England team is too strong or the Indian team has become so insipid, probably the truth is in between.

    I have been saying this for a some time, there are things that are not going so well in the Indian camp. Many players are showing body language that shows team is not jelling well.

    Dhoni has had his time, but I think it is time for regime change at Test level. There is a saying that every captain reaches the end of his powers, no matter how good they are.

    India will lose this test for sure, strange as it sounds after dominating first two days, and once they lose this Test, they will not be able to recover mentally and will likely lose the next Test as well. Indian supports can only hope it won’t become 4-0.

  432. #435 by Bichoo on July 31, 2011 - 7:09 PM

    I didn’t mean to actually say “I have been saying this for a some time” in my previous post, like Waqar, but I make mistakes when typing fast.

  433. #436 by Josh mey aa gaya on July 31, 2011 - 7:10 PM

    Bichoo

    Dont a worry, we all a make some a mistakes.

    We will give you a room if you are looking for a room.

    But we do not have a keeps.

  434. #437 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on July 31, 2011 - 8:23 PM

    Bichoo,

    I agree with you. England will go for the juggernaut and try to beat India 4-0. India is weak in its bowling and that weakness is showing. Like Ian Chappel said, the surprise is how India survived being number one for such a long time? By this I don’t imply that they didn’t deserve to be number one. They certainly did; however, they don’t have a bowler which bowls with an average of under 30. Now that is rare, for a team to be number one despite being so thin on bowling resources. Compare it with Australia who had Mcgrarth averaging in the early 20s, and Warne averaging in the mid-20s, with a couple of other bowlers like Lee averaging around 30. That team was based on two great and two good bowlers. India has 3,4 good bowlers but none of them are great or great material. India compensate’s for that with its batting and their strength at home, but it is only a matter of time that they will play away cricket against top teams and lose their number one ranking. For India to beat Australia in Australia will be very, very difficult. This is because pitches in Australia are flat and it would take a stellar bowling performance by India to get them out twice to win a match.

  435. #438 by JAVED A. KHAN on July 31, 2011 - 9:54 PM

    Bichoo

    At that time when I wrote the comment, ‘the game is out of India’s reach’ the lead was only 309 and now it is 374 with the same number of wickets in hand. Prior is a batsman but Tim is a hit and miss kinda player and he has almost reached his 50 with 9 fours and India cannot get him out? …… Then the Broad who is in form can also whack around, so I agree with khansahab‘s comments, ‘CONGRATULATIONS TO ENGLAND FOR WINNING THIS TEST’.

    From now on, India has to play the game only to save the match, don’t expect Dravid to score a century in every innings.

    I really get pissed off by these experts comments when they say, India dominated 4 of the 6 sessions earlier but, now England dominated the 90 overs session today! What an idiot to say, why the F do they say such things, the bottom line is who is in the winning seat and who has actually won the match? I won’t forget that cricket is a funny game and you cannot tell the result till it is over. I am sure, England would like to play till lunch and take a lead of at least 460-470 and put India under pressure, but please check the weather report also.

  436. #439 by Mohammed Munir on August 1, 2011 - 6:30 AM

    Without GOD, our week would be:

    Sinday, Mournday, Tearsday, Wasteday, Thirstday, Fightday & Shatterday.

    Seven days without GOD makes one WEAK.

    RAMADAN KAREEM TO ALL.

  437. #440 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 11:44 AM

    Harbhajan faking an injury so that when he is “dropped” from next test it won’t look like he was dropped for non performance, what a fraudster. That too an stomach injury, the pictures that shows him touching his tummy and acting like hurt makes the blood boil, wanting to walk up to him and give a slap

    Buddy system of Dhoni has ruined this cricket team. England of course is a much stronger team, but notwithstanding that Dhoni is stubborn to include only his buddies in team. He has kept a better batsman and keeper in Dinesh Karthik out of team for long time because he could be a threat to Dhoni, instead the reserve is always Saha who is a poorer batsman.

    Rumor is that if India lose this test by a big margin and then go on to lose the next Test, Dhoni will be on his way out. They won’t announce it right away after the series, but when next series is announced Dhoni won’t be Test captain.

    Dhoni will remain as ODI and T20 captain, which of course is where his value is. He is not a Test player, and should not be Test captain.

  438. #441 by Pawan on August 1, 2011 - 11:47 AM

    Two things are exposed here:

    1. Harbhajan’s lack of form or no-form and no-confidence
    2. Bell’s great form – he has been itching to come up the order – should have played up much before this IMO

  439. #442 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 12:30 PM

    Pawan,

    The biggest thing that has been exposed in India was over hyped as a Test team. This is a bitter pill to swallow for many fans and even the cheer leading commentators namely Bakvaskar, Shastri, and Harsha Bhogle. These three annoy me with the biased commentary that lacks any objectivity. Why don’t they just admit England prepared hard over the last couple of years to be the top Test team, while BCCI has been focused on making money from IPL.

  440. #443 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 12:46 PM

    China says Xinjiang attack linked to Pakistan

    Is this going to impact China’s relationship with Pakistan? Even though China has no real friendship with anyone other than for their own motives, they have supported Pakistan on various occasions.

  441. #444 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 1:41 PM

    Sourav Ganguly on air discussing with India’s opening batting troubles looking a crap player Mukund is, Harsha as usual was beating around discussing all kind of players possible, Sourav said: Let’s not make any mistake, best openers in India are Sehwag, Gambhir, and Wasim Jaffer. Shastri agreed Jaffer is also good player against pace, still making lot of runs in domestic cricket, and he is only 32. Sourav said, he failed in one series in Australia and was dropped, never recalled. Indian selectors were always like this, gives too many chance to ca crapster like Bhajji who should have been dropped, and gives too little chance to some players who probably deserve another look.

  442. #445 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 1:44 PM

    Good to see Tendulkar come out in positive mind set today and playing his shots, despite India wobbling and looking all set to a defeat. Tendulkar is playing his natural game, and I am watching so long as he is batting, just to see him bat.

  443. #446 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 1, 2011 - 1:48 PM

    Bichoo

    India and Tendulkar are reeling to escape the death of this test match which seems impossible, winning can’t even be a dream, even a draw is impossible from now. May be Tendulkar will play and score a century but, that will be all in vain. Dhoni must be knowing in his hearts that the era of jubilation that he enjoyed for so long is going to end around the corner. He must be calling MAY DAY, MAY DAY and so also Her-Bhajan.

    Munir

    Welcome back from vacation, hope you have enjoyed it? ” Kullow Aam Wa Antum Bekhair, wa Kullow Sana wa Antum Taiyaabeen.” Ramadan Kareem, Mabrook Alaik.

  444. #447 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 1, 2011 - 1:48 PM

    Bichoo

    India and Tendulkar are reeling to escape the death of this test match which seems impossible, winning can’t even be a dream, even a draw is impossible from now. May be Tendulkar will play and score a century but, that will be all in vain. Dhoni must be knowing in his hearts that the era of jubilation that he enjoyed for so long is going to end around the corner. He must be calling MAY DAY, MAY DAY and so also Her-Bhajan.

    Munir

    Welcome back from vacation, hope you have enjoyed it? ” Kullow Aam Wa Antum Bekhair, — Kullow Sana wa Antum Taiyaabeen.” Ramadan Kareem, Mabrook Alaik.

  445. #448 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 1, 2011 - 1:53 PM

    Gang-Goo-Lee that is his Chinese ancestral name :D Since he is commentating, he has matured a lot and his comments are pretty balanced as opposed to his antics during his cricketing days and as a captain he played a lot of politics being a DADA and now I find him pretty straightforward, I am not watching his series, but I am talking based on his previous matches commentary.

  446. #449 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 2:25 PM

    LOL @DHONI .. what a crapster out first ball DUCK Yuvraj, Raina, Dhoni, Mukund, useless players who has no clue to some standard pace and swing bowling. Nothing extra ordinary England are doing, but these crapsters can only play IPL.

    What a joke. India 55/6 after England making 500+.

    This is the biggest mauling in Test for India so far I recall in last 5 years.

  447. #450 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 2:29 PM

    Ganguly certainly speaking balanced. Bakvaskar and Harsha still in denial mode. Harsha keeps on talking ranking and how England need to win by 2 Test margin to go up as #1 ranking. Ganguly simply said Don’t worry about rankings Harsha, this team (England) won in Australia 3-1 and dominating this Test series. Good to see one Indian ex-player who is balanced and not cheer leading even when everything is going wrong with team.

  448. #451 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 1, 2011 - 4:32 PM

    Bichoo,

    Yaar go easy on Dhoni. You are obviously not used to losing, but this is the first test series that I recall that may be lost under his captaincy. What do you expect from him? For him to be invincible, because no-one is, even the great Australian team lost to India in India?

    The good news is hat Sehwag is coming back and Tendulkar plays well when Sehwag makes runs, makes the new ball old, dominates the bowlers, etc…so both could be playing in form whenever the next test match is.

  449. #452 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 1, 2011 - 5:19 PM

    Bichoo,

    Btw what are your views on Dhoni withdrawing the appeal against Bell?

  450. #453 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 1, 2011 - 5:58 PM

    Sagaat

    There is no need to defend Dhoni, he was out on first ball for a duck what a shame and India lost against England with one of the biggest margins as far as I remember in the recent years, what a shame for a number one test ranking country to be mauled like this. Dhoin is not in form it is as simple as that, so he should be given rest, in fact he should not be test captain.

    Bichoo

    There is some consolation for Gavaskar that Tendulkar scored a fifty, ideally he wanted him to make a hundred and that is why in my last comment, I wrote may be Tendulkar will score a hundred and that was for Gavaskar’s sake :D

    See, I am not wrong about Ganguly he has definitely changed since he became a commentator. Harsha is a bhurr bhurra luttoo, you know what a luttoo is? a TOP that we used to play with in childhood days, now a days no kid knows what a luttoo is? And, a bhurr bhurra is the one that spins unevenly and not smoothly.

  451. #454 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 6:39 PM

    Sagaat,

    No way Dhoni’s performance can be justified, most ex-players on both sides were aghast at him not offering a shot first ball, to a swinging ball, who the hell does he think he is, Dravid or Tendulkar? He has seen then shouldering arms, and he thought let me give this a try since last time I tried slashing at the ball and that went to slip. But to his surprise this ball hit his pad, and umpires are quick to give out LBW if you offer no shot.

    The point is, Dhoni is not a Test quality batsman, everyone knows this, he has been hiding behind the mountain of runs made by Sehwag, Gambhir, Tendulkar, Dravid, and Laxman all this this time. Now is exposed. In fact, even the middle order of Dravid, Laxman, Tendulkar is finding it tough because India relies a lot on the opening combination of Sehwag / Gambhir to get a good start. Most often, Sehwag pulverizes opposition, or Gambhir grinds them out, then the middle order settles in. Rarely, did they play recently with the kind of nothing players like Mukund, Murali Vijay, Raina, Yuvraj. None of them are Test quality batsmen.

    There is nothing great about Dhoni’s captaincy and India’s Test record in recent times. Look at the kind of impact players India has had, Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar. Laxman, Zaheer. If all of them are available and in form then they can compete with any team and defeat any team. This is how they did well. Now they are missing Three from that list. Guess what happens? they get mauled.

    I am not mad because they lost, because of the margin and the way in which they lost, a proper mauling, and this is the first time in last 5 years India lost two tests back to back. Congratulations to Dhoni.

    Dhoni also has kept very poorly, may be not as bad as Kamran Akmal, but compare to Matt Prior he has been a terrible failure.

    There has to be better wicketkeeper / batsmen in the country, and Dhoni is not needed just for his captaincy. There are others who can take over that job, like VVS Laxman for instance would make a very good Test captain.

  452. #455 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 6:47 PM

    Sagaat,

    My view on Dhoni recalling Bell is same as that of English ex-players Nasser Hussain, Michael Atherton, and David Gower, that is, based on letter of law Bell was out, and India did nothing to violate the spirit of game in taking bails off and appealing to umpires. Bell was out, simple as that. Dhoni and India did not had to chicken out in front of crowd pressure. They wanted to look good in front of English crowd and press.

    But this is professional sport, you are playing for your country, representing a billion of your countrymen, in a situation where opposition is taking the match away from you in a Test series you are lagging 1-0. You are recalling the guy who was anchoring the innings. When in first place there is nothing that India did wrong.

    I think it was dopey on Dhoni’s part.

    Warne was asked what would an Aussie captain do in that situation.

    If Strauss went up to Aussie dressing room and asked Steve Waugh or Ricky Ponting what would have been their response? there would be some choice words including some expletives and they will shut the door in his face, then they go out and ignore the booing crowd and try to win the match. This is what personally I would have done, and think this what Dhoni should have done.

  453. #456 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 6:53 PM

    Javed Khan,

    LOL @ Harsha compared to a bhurr bhurra luttoo, and for the explanation .. yes, that aptly describes Harsha. What an annoying combination, GavasKar, Harsha, and Shastri, all three are so biased and always blabbering mindless stuff .. even for an Indian supporter get so tiring.

  454. #457 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 6:54 PM

    Wasim Chakram was also in some form I hear in the commentary box ..

  455. #458 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 1, 2011 - 7:06 PM

    Bichoo,

    But Dhoni averages in the mid-30s as a test player. I know that is not great, but then he is a wickerkeeper primarily (I think your expectations of him are way too high). I don’t know why you criticize his wicketkeeping, he barely drops a catch that comes his way.

    Just 4 innings ago he played one of the best knocks in the history of the game to win India the final of the world cup. That Dhoni’s technique is fit for sub-continental pitches is a known fact. He is bound to struggle at two places: England and SA. But remember these are places where it is difficult for the likes of Tendulkar and Dravid to make runs. Pakistan’s best batsmen have been inconsequential in such conditions, so from my perspective, it is hard to blame Dhoni for 4 innings that our own Inzamam would have played in such conditions.

    As regards to recalling Bell back, I like you, think that it shouldn’t have been done. Besides the reasons you give, it sets a bad precedent, that once an umpire has given a player out, an appeal can be withdrawan and the batsman come back to play his innings. If the umpire gives a player out bowled, and if the fielding team says that the batsman can come back and play, would it sound right if the appeal were to be withdrawan in that instance?

  456. #459 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 7:31 PM

    Sagaat,

    It sounds strange when you defend Dhoni with his 37 avg ins Tests with only 4 hundreds against weak bowling attacks on sub-continental pitches, the same person who will nit pick on Tendulkar’s average against McGrath, et al.

    I agree as WK / Batsman one should be given little bit of room for failure, but look at England team, they have no tail, and it’s not just because India is bowling bad, if India were bowling that bad then how were they able to get top order batsmen out for cheap? So, the England lower order of Prior (WK), Bresnan, Broad, and Swann are batting well, but India has a long tail starting with Dhoni.

    As captain of a top Test team, Dhoni cannot be afforded any slack. He must perform with the bat, and he must do a top wicketkeeper job.

    You are comparing his performance in WC win with Test matches, again an irony for you, since I said Dhoni is a top ODI player and captain, he should stay there. He is not a Test player.

    His keeping is poor this series, twice at Lords he did not go for a catch that should have been his, instead it went between him and Dravid at first slip. Since he did not drop the catch, he may not look as bad as Kamran Akmal, and people might think Dravid should have taken the catch. But Dhoni was the one who should have taken those. He also let so many runs as byes.

    His captaincy with Broad and Swann attacking on first day, and then again yesterday / today was terrible.

    There is no place for Dhoni to hide. Again, in ODI, no doubt, he is the best captain, and pressure player. A true match winner in all regards in ODI / T20. Tests are not his cup of tea.

  457. #460 by Pawan on August 1, 2011 - 9:04 PM

    Guys

    It is easy to list out the reasons for India’s loss.
    Just web search Guardian, Telegraph, Independent, Cricinfo, etc
    Every tom dick and harry will know what has happened.
    It is the art of looking beyond the obvious.

    PK, Ishant and Bandar were alright according to me
    They have the skills to do an okay job
    But are they mentally strong enough?
    What different would a Zaheer Khan do when the chips are down?
    He would produce a wicket from nowhere
    This is what makes him special.
    Anyone and everyone can flow with momentum
    But it is those players who can change the momentum that count
    You have to be mentally strong and tough, especially the bowlers.

    Again the spin department was slacking
    When you know the English don’t play spin well
    How can you let them get away with that?
    You have to pounce on their weakness.
    For a short while today when I was watching the match
    I heard Nasser Hussain speak about England
    According to him there are no weaknesses
    That is because they haven’t been exposed
    When you have seen Warne become the prick in English souls
    Why can’t you give Mishra the spin bowler’s role?
    Is that so hard to understand?

    I have mentioned it several times now about selectors
    They have not groomed any openers.
    They had this opportunity when Viru Gauti were injured
    But they have fared badly to say the least
    Mukund is an out and out flat pitch bully
    Even the mediocre Windies found him bunny

    Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman are fine
    Even Pietersen, Trott, Bell didn’t score in all the matches
    But you need support to in matches
    There is no opener, Mukund is virtually absent
    Then the lower middle order is woefully out of form
    But Raina, Dhoni and Yuvaraj should be given time
    Remember this is Raina and Yuvraj’s first English tour
    They just need to step up mentally.

  458. #461 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 1, 2011 - 9:42 PM

    Bichoo,

    LOL at me being nitpicky about Tendulkar’s record. My point is that Dhoni is not a great test batsman, but it is the sum of parts, that is, the keeper, the captain, and the batsman that makes him special. As for Tendulkar I am nitpicky when you guys claim that he is the second-best batsman of all time. I accept he is a great batsman, no doubt, but it requires thorough examination to say that he is better than Lara, Richards, Sobers, Sehwag, Dravid, Ponting etc….I personally think that Sehwag is the batsman of our generation, an out an out matchwinner, but others don’t take his name in that league.

  459. #462 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 10:35 PM

    Pawan,

    Bowlers did fine, despite the 500+ in second innings, they still took 20 wickets in the match between three of them. We both agree Bhajji is crap and must not play even before this Test, but we also knew they will stick with him, because he is undroppable even if he is a liability. Crapster just bowled 9 overs in the match. So in both games, India played with three bowlers. They did fine, Zaheer of course would have made it more balanced, but still let’s not forget the real problem is batting.

    It is the batting that failed to score over 300 runs after 4 innings have been played. England by contrast went beyond 400 twice. Dhoni admitted it is continuing problem from WI where they failed to score big in all three tests. Without Sehwag / Gambhir batting just isn’t clicking. But England on the other hand without Cook / Strauss going past 30 in 4 innings still have scored heavy. This is because India starting with #7 has a long tail, while England from #7 scores runs when needed.

    Let’s give bowlers credit. It is the famed batting that failed to post 200 runs in 4th innings here, and failed to post 300 so far. Compare that to 2007 tour where they scored 450+ at Trentbride, and 600+ at the oval.

  460. #463 by Bichoo on August 1, 2011 - 10:40 PM

    Sagaat,

    I know you have the tendency to argue for the sake of arguing. But to re-iterate my point: The sum total of Dhoni in Test matches of late is still a big zero.

    His batting is nothing, he has scored may be 80 runs in 4 innings. His keeping is not at all up to the mark, one English commentator even called in worst in the world. As I said he did not go for catches several times, it is same as dropping. His captaincy lacked any imagination. Why was he not bowling Bhajji after selecting him in the team. Bhajji was faking injury in second innings, because he knew he was going to be pounded. His field placements were horrendous. There is nothing special he did in West Indies or in England so far in 5 tests his captaincy was pretty ordinary.

    Fact of the matter is: Dhoni is tired of too much cricket. He need to be rested. It will be better if he is dropped for the next couple of Tests. They can call it rested to make it look good for all I care. But he is showing fatigue and has lost interest in the game.

  461. #464 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 2, 2011 - 4:40 AM

    Bichoo,

    No, I don’t have the tendency to argue for the sake of arguing. Your perception is wrong. When I stick to a point, however, I do defend it. That is because I believe that point is well-rationalized and reasoned. Moreover, I can change my opinion if the other provides solid reasons. But what you are saying is that, despite Dhoni not dropping a catch, he is a poor keeper. It is hard for me to understand how you can make such an outlandish statement without solid backing. Now it is a matter of perception whether a ball that passed by Dhoni, without ever challenging him, was a catch or not. Did the commentators adjudicate it as a dropped catch or were you wishing that it was a catch?

    As a matter of fact his wicketkeeping is fine, whereas his batting is a bit off this series. But Tendulkar, the more accomplished test player, isn’t having a good series either. Why not blame the more senior player and the specialist batsman? Is there a problem with his attitude, too, or he is just having a poor series? This shows your bias against Dhoni…

    As for Ghambir he is another passenger in English conditions, though if Sehwag plays once in 4 innings from here, the test match he plays the innings in, India would most likely win it.

  462. #465 by Mohammed Munir on August 2, 2011 - 6:23 AM

    Javed Khan …

    Thanks for your welcoming note.

    Yes, I had an absolutely fantastic time and this was a very special and memorable vacation in many ways.

    Hope you have a special Ramadan full of many special Iftar parties. :P

    But be careful not to sleep in your Taraweeh prayers. ;)

  463. #466 by Mohammed Munir on August 2, 2011 - 6:40 AM

    Gandhi …

    Happen to go through some of the above comments on this ‘thread’ and while “skimming” some of the discussions.

    I neither have the will nor the energy to be part of this never-ending debate, but the only point I would like to mention is that comparing Gandhi with a Prophet and a Messenger of God is not only out of place but rather ludicrous.

  464. #467 by Mohammed Munir on August 2, 2011 - 6:47 AM

    India / England series…

    Unfortunately, I haven’t been following the series so far, and with the Ramadan and compressed office timing, I am not hopeful of watching the remainder of the matches with much interest.

    That being said, it doesn’t need any special effort to end-up seeing some highlights on TV, reading LS, checking Cricinfo, and off course knowing from friends and colleagues about the final outcomes, and so far those final outcomes are NOT GOOD for India.

    What England is doing to the no. 1 Test team in the world is ….. not fair …. to say the least.

    Indian fans are already talking about Dhoni’s head, well it must be that serious I guess.

    Dravid and Luxman have been manily carrying the burden of Indian battling line-up, although both of them are at the fag-end of their respective careers.

    BTW, seeing the way some of the Indian batters (including Sachin Tendulkar) got out yesterday, the things doesn’t look good for India at all.

    On second thoughts, Sachin should also consider about his safe-exit while some respect is intact, before the ruthless Indian fans start talking about ousting him same like Dhoni.

    That will be really regrettable end for a legend. :(

  465. #468 by Mohammed Munir on August 2, 2011 - 9:11 AM

    Are we not due for a fresh thread :?:

    I think enough of this ‘Danny Booaye’ poster. ;)

    BTW, what’s happening with PCB and their selection for Zimbabwe tour :?:

    I see so many drop-outs but surprisingly Indian tennis star Sania Mirza’s husband (Shoaib Malik) is among the ‘stand-bys’. :(

    I recently, heard Shahid Afridi commenting on TV that … ‘If I am not capable of being a Captain, then Ijaz-the-Butt is not capable of being PCB Chairman’.

    Afridi had Ijaz Butt by his balls when he made a counter-case against PCB, but he blew the opportunity at that time. :(

  466. #469 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 2, 2011 - 9:51 AM

    Munir

    At the moment the Indian focus is on two things:

    1. India / England series in which India is being drubbed, dragged, ragged and torn into pieces by their own people.
    2. Hina Rabbani Khar. She is being viewed not as a foreign minister but, as a fashion frenzy model and India’s FM Krishna used some FEVICOL while shaking hands with her.

    Bichoo

    Btw, is this the same Krishna who was reading a wrong speech at the UN, until one of his advisers came and pulled those papers of his hands and then thumped the correct ones in front of him? LOL what an embarrassment it must have caused? I would expect something like this from Zardari or Gillani because both are capable of committing such bloopers.

    All I can say about Hina Rabbani is, they are para sailing with her, I mean they are making out a Sarah Palin out of her.

    Munir

    On second thought, a question: Do you want us to replace Danny Booaye’s poster with Hina Bibbi’s poster? Ramazan ka khayaal ker kay jawab dou.

  467. #470 by Bichoo on August 2, 2011 - 1:38 PM

    Sagaat,

    When I said you have the tendency to argue for the sake of arguing, what I really meant is that it appears to me sometimes that you make an effort to take on a contrarian view point on issues.

    The case of Dhoni’s keeping being poor, and his batting and his overall energy being jaded and listless is being written unanimously by English and Indian press. These are people who saw what is happening on the field over two tests in last two weeks. I have been following this Test series and the three Tests in WI where Dhoni was keeping poorly, he lacked energy not just behind stumps but in batting and in his captaincy.

    It’s not a reaction simply because his team lost people are jumping on him, it is because of this reason his team is losing that people are jumping on him and the administrators.

    I don’t know why you want to argue about something which you personally have not followed, if you saw the Test matches and how he is conducting himself on field you will know. He looks like a zombie on field. This is not a question of your view vs. my view, and I don’t need to convince yout with evidence. Just go and read any number of articles on Guardian, Telegraph, Cricketer, so on .. or better yet, since you want to believe it with your own eyes, watch the replay of the last two tests, you have to see who sessions or whole passages of play, not the highlights. I can’t provide more evidence than that. It is a fact, Dhoni is tired.

    Not just Dhoni, but the entire team is tired, including Tendulkar and Zaheer who did not had a good preparation to this series. Sehwag ignored his shoulder and chose to do surgery after IPL and not right after World Cup. Had he done it, or BCCI forced him to do it and skip IPL he could have been playing the first test at Lords.

    The only people who were well rested and prepared for this series are Dravid, Laxman, Ishant, and Praveen, and their performances show that.

    Most of other are tired from World Cup campaign and the 70 odd game IPL circus just one week after world cup.

    Then they played three tests in WI and came to Lords to play a Test series against one of the strongest Test teams with just one week break.

    A lot of blame is on BCCI, in fact most it is on BCCI for giving priority to IPL and not this series. But as captain Dhoni will be targeted, it is just normal. He has to stand up for team and speak up that preparation is not good enough. But you never see him say that except when asked by commentators after a loss. This is why Dhoni is targeted, in his refusal to speak up for players and then going on the field with shoddy performance.

  468. #471 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 2, 2011 - 3:25 PM

    GANGULY BLASTED INDIA AND DHONI FOR THE DEFEATS

    England v India, 2nd npower Test, Trent Bridge
    Ganguly rips into India’s build-up

    ESPNcricinfo staff

    August 2, 2011

    Former India captain Sourav Ganguly has slammed the team’s preparations for the high-profile England tour, saying the amount of cricket being played cannot be used as an excuse for their poor show in the first two Tests. His comments came shortly after MS Dhoni had suggested that the start of the tour less than a week after three back-to-back Tests in the Caribbean had affected India’s performance.

    “I’m too fed up hearing this “time to recover” [excuse] – don’t play for India then, you know this is what it is, you have to come back and play a Test series,” Ganguly told Indian news channel Headlines Today. “And it was an important Test series, it was a marquee Test series to decide who was the No. 1 Test side in the world and you cannot say that. Okay you’ve lost and you haven’t played well, the matter ends there, just accept that and move on.”

    India’s No. 1 ranking is now in jeopardy after two thumping defeats to England, who now only need to draw the remaining Tests to take the top spot. Ganguly urged the Indian players to move on from the demoralising two weeks.

    “You have to put it behind … You are 28, 29, 30, you won’t get to play for India all your life. Make the most when you get it, once it goes, you won’t get it back, even how much you want it.”

    Ganguly also lashed out at India’s “soft cricket” and the long-standing failings against the bouncer, singling out the younger batsmen who are yet to cement their place. “The number of batsmen who got out to the short deliveries today was appalling,” he said. “Suresh Raina, Yuvraj Singh, Abhinav Mukund – it was an opportunity for them to establish themselves, Raina and Yuvraj are fighting for a place in the Test squad to get that No. 6 slot which is still vacant for a long long time now.”

    At Trent Bridge, Gautam Gambhir’s absence due to injury disrupted India’s batting order, pushing Rahul Dravid to the opening spot and VVS Laxman to No. 3 – a position Ganguly felt Laxman was unsuited for in seaming conditions. “Laxman is comfortable against the bouncing ball because that’s his technique, he hangs back. But the moment the ball starts swinging, he doesn’t get on the front foot. He should be batting five or six.”

    He also questioned the absence of a back-up opener in the squad, which was struck a major blow ahead of the series when Virender Sehwag was ruled out of the first two Tests. “You must remember – every time you travel abroad, you have to carry three openers. They knew Sehwag was injured, and you needed to carry some, what’s wrong with Wasim Jaffer? What wrong has that kid done?”

    Another source of disappointment for Ganguly was the batting of the Indian tail-enders. While India’s final four wickets contributed only 118 runs in the two innings at Trent Bridge – most of those runs coming too late to impact the course of the game – England’s tail put on 338. “You look at [Stuart] Broad, [Tim] Bresnan, [Graeme] Swann they had put a price on their wicket; but that was not the case with Praveen Kumar, Sreesanth, even Harbhajan Singh until he did in the second innings,” he said. “Rahul Dravid was stuck with them in the first innings and they kept falling like nine pins. In the second innings, we saw today Tendulkar was batting and they kept getting out.”

    The series and the No. 1 ranking are still not lost for India, and they will be boosted by the return of Gambhir for the third Test, and two other key players – Sehwag and Zaheer Khan – could also be back. “India need to quickly recover from this; they have a Test match in Birmingham in a week’s time, and have a lot of issues to settle.”

  469. #472 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 2, 2011 - 3:28 PM

    Bichoo

    A couple of days ago, I asked where is Wasim Jaffer the opener? And, Ganguly is asking about him now and I have highlighted that point in his above comments.

    I agree with you on Sehwag taking a very casual approach and playing the IPL and not paying much attention to test series, this is what the general attitude is, their mouth is where the money is.

  470. #473 by Pawan on August 2, 2011 - 4:39 PM

    Javed

    Playing IPL or not is a players choice.
    I don’t see ACB or even ECB pose restrictions on playing domestic T20 tournaments.
    My point is let that decision be left onto the players.
    I am not defending the players.
    A player should know his body well.
    If he thinks he need rest, he should rest and prioritize accordingly.
    But that is completely to the individual.

    My point is why not train replacements?
    I am sure there are countless more Sehwags, Gambhirs out there.
    If there is healthy competition, the players will themselves buckle down.
    Right now it appears as if there is no replacement for Sehwag and Gambhir.
    This is a classic example.
    The blame has to go to the selectors for not pursuing the right opener replacements.
    Jaffer is just one of the many openers we have in domestic cricket.
    But Srikanth kept on pursuing Vijay and not Mukund.

    Every player must have a replacement ready.
    If you give a player too much importance then he sits on your head.

  471. #474 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 2, 2011 - 6:25 PM

    Pawan

    The main point is MONEY and nothing but money, and the players prefer not to lose huge amounts of money that the IPL offers, neither ACB nor ECB can match it, so no point in mentioning their names. Even before the IPL, a lot of players used to hide their real fitness from the selectors by saying they are 100% fit whereas, they were not, some just didn’t want to be left out and some, assuming they will be match fit when the time comes but, they were not only an embarrassment for the team and nation but, also they have deceived themselves. We have many examples in Pakistan like, Shoaib Akhtar and a few others like Umar Akmal who faked an injury to take his brother’s side..

    As regards selection, it will remain biased in the subcontinent because of the culture, either it is because of SIFARISH or because the player is so submissive to the selector and the captain that you can call him a big CHAMCHA like, Shoaib Malik used to be during Inzamam days, he used to say: “I can play wherever my captain wants me to play, I can play up, I can play down, I can play in the middle, or even in the bottom.” The same was with Rana Naveed he was in the team because of Chamcha giri. You cannot change this attitude of selectors and the players until and unless you change the culture and that is possible only by education and by teaching them the moral values and ethics. Otherwise, all our players will remain uncouth and uneducated paindoos.

  472. #475 by Bichoo on August 2, 2011 - 9:02 PM

    Agree with Javed Khan that no player want to give up IPL money, one thing that is helping England Test team apart from very strict schedules and training progrms, they do not participate in the IPL. They have given priority to Test cricket, where as in ODI England is nothing, and the general public don’t care too much about this. England is one nation where you see people coming to watch Test matches on all five days and tickets get sold out. It helps that matches bring results most of the time.

    Chamcha giri is big time in Indian team always, it will never go away unless it happens from the grass root level, it’s all about the culture, one reason when I left India I decided not to go back permanently is that I was disgusted with several short comings in the culture, like bribery, sifarish, uncouth behavior in public places, demeaning women, so on .. not that everything is perfect in Western societies, but there is basic etiquette.

    In the Indian team, ever since Dhoni took up captaincy, it’s culture has changed, it is true that he is a good captain and team is winning more than it is losing, but Dhoni has created a culture scraping to win, this is something Australian teams under Allen Border used to do. They were not so great at that time, but they will scrap for a win with whatever limited resources they have and find a way. India’s World Cup win is a good example, in many case India scraped their way to win, like the Aussie team of ’87 under Border did. This is not a bad thing, and in many ways is a good quality. But then I prefer the sides that Sourav Ganguly led, I still believe he was the best Indian captain. He is the captain that changed the outlook of Indian team and taught them to go for wins abroad.

  473. #476 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 2, 2011 - 9:33 PM

    Bichoo

    There you go, you basically agree with me on almost all the points and not just about IPL money. THANK YOU FOR THAT.

    Many times before this comment, I have mentioned here and also on other cricket blogs that Ganguly was India’s best captain, he was shrewd but, then it is a quality. Dhoni’s foxiness, cunningness and craftiness is being appreciated as a quality then, why not accept Ganguly’s shrewdness? By now he is the most matured commentator from India and he is not afraid to speak his mind.

    Test matches if they are result oriented and if it is a full packed capacity crowd on a sunny day with beautiful surroundings is more please-able than ODI’s. The English and the Australians make use of the weather and enjoy test matches like a ritual especially their Ashes series. There is a lot of tension between the two sides and players always get a second chance if they made a mistake in the first innings.

  474. #477 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 2, 2011 - 9:45 PM

    As regards the culture back home, even as a kid I hated the bureaucratic system, the bribery oriented culture, the police mafia, the Chaudhry, Sardar and Wadera mafia and treating the women in a demeaning manner etc., are all these things that I couldn’t stand. Very soon I moved to Dubai, there were many good things there as compared to Pakistan especially in terms of security and lawlessness i.e., still prevailing in Pakistan. But, then I couldn’t stand the Arab hypocrisy and their dual rules that are applied so openly and blatantly and nowhere in the world you will find open discrimination between an Arab and a non-Arab. And, then if you are a gora, especially British or a US citizen then you get a preferential treatment over other goras.

    I find Canada better than many countries because, most people here are immigrants and most of them are educated and experienced. And then there are refugees who have taken advantage of the system and abusing it and they spoil the name of the country they come from, which is not fair because a majority of them are not like that. And, again this is not a perfect place to live because, there are a few things at very high level which are no different from other countries, like in this province we have a problem with roads, transport and bridges. Just 3 days ago on Sunday evening, I passed through a 3 km. tunnel which is very old and dilapidated normally I don’t take that route but, that day because of traffic on the bridges I took the tunnel and that very same day, I don’t know exactly how many hours later, but thank God, I wasn’t there, reportedly a 15 meters x 15 meters concrete slab fell inside the tunnel and luckily there were no cars or traffic at that moment and no one was hurt.

    This year they have closed one of the four major bridges which connects the mainland with South shore and because of that there is a huge traffic jam almost all the time.

  475. #478 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 2, 2011 - 11:31 PM

    Ganguly mentions a good point: Why was Laxman promoted at number 3?

    Certainly, I hadn’t considered that Laxman was a player much suited to a bouncer or the short ball. That may be the reason why he could have been much more useful down the order. But he was used as a bait to, as our great fast bowler would have said, provide a protection to Tendulkar. Or else Tendulkar would have had to play at number 3, against the moving ball…what do people make of that and what should be the strategy in the next match if Ghambir is injured? Should Tendulkar be promoted up the order (btw Ponting has played at number 3 and Sehwag plays as an opener) or should Laxman be baited?

    And, contrary to what cricinfo’s headline says, Ganguly doesn’t criticize the build-up, but criticizes the excuse of not having a sound build-up. Excuses are floating abound, but bear in mind that in this match Trott and Swann both got injured, too. Besides, it is a known fact that England’s tail is much better: There is no way that India’s tail could have prepared for the series by converting themselves into all rounders overnight.The fact is that India was banking on its senior, specialist batsmen. Dravid has played his part, but Laxman has somewhat fallen short (perhaps because he has been promoted?). Tendulkar has not looked the part, either. With Sehwag injured, these three are to shoulder India’s batting and have been found wanting in the collective (though Dravid has done quite well).

  476. #479 by Bichoo on August 3, 2011 - 12:47 AM

    Sagaat,

    Laxman has batted at #3 position before, his famous 281 against Australia came at #3 position, but that was played in India.

    Laxman has a weakness against the swinging ball, but he is very strong against the short pitch / bouncing balls, he is one of the very Indian players that can pull or hook the ball, in fact, he loves playing the bouncing ball. This is one of the reasons why he has been so successful in Australia, but not so in England.

    Laxman is suited to come down at #5 or #6 for not just this reason, he is a pressure player, and he plays really well with the tail. In fact, if Laxman was playing with the tail yesterday instead of Tendulkar, India would have scored more runs possibly. I knew Tendulkar will score yesterday because there was no pressure on him, contrary to what people think it was not a pressure situation, imagine that Dravid and Laxman gone early, and couple more wickets fell, who will blame Tendulkar for getting out, it was perfect chance for him to play his strokes and not worry about win or lose. It is when he worries about the result that Tendulkar puts himself under pressure and then he cannot bat freely.

    Coming back to the question, Tendulkar will not give up the #4 position, and he will not give up the opening bat position in ODI, he is very rigid in these things, so it is always Dravid and Laxman who will have to compromise. More than protection from moving ball, I think this has to do with his regular preparation work before going to bat.

    Dravid said that he has a routine when he bats at #3 and he has settled into it, changing that to open the batting is unsettling for him. I don’t think Tendulkar is worried about the moving ball, he has the technique to counter it, and he has played so many good knocks in swinging conditions. I think it has to do with his routine and he is rigid about.

    We can question, why he is not flexible and why someone else like Laxman have to be flexible. But that is how it goes, Tendulkar probably earned his right to do so.

    The right to do was for Tendulkar to put up his bat and go at #3 since that would be logical, then they are pushing everyone up the order +1. But none of this matters, these are all excuses. Fact is Indians played without guts. They are better team than this, but they gave up on day 3 like gutless wimps.

  477. #480 by Bichoo on August 3, 2011 - 12:52 AM

    Sagaat,

    It is true that Tendulkar failure to get a hundred in this series so far is hurting India. Not just any hundred, but if you go back to previous England tours, both Tendulkar and Dravid got big hundreds to setup India win at Headingley and Trentbride, before 2007. Then in 2007 Tendulkar got 91, and Dravid and others got big half centuries to setup high totals. So, tail contributions are not required. If the big three or big two scored huge hundreds like KP did at Lords, and Bell did at Trentbride then India would not have been in this position.

    I think it was a mistake for Tendulkar not to go for the WI tour. He too should have skipped IPL after WC, take rest and then go for WI tour. That would have prepared him.

    But, can you imagine Tendulkar telling the Ambani’s I cannot play for your team this season. Imagine the fallout. He should have had the courage though in my personal view.

  478. #481 by Josh mey aa gaya on August 3, 2011 - 12:53 AM

    Sagaat/Bichoo/Pawan

    I will agree with some points of all of you.

    I think fatigue and lack of preparation is definitely a factor. Test cricket has definitely been ignored as the Indian cricket administration has focused on IPL and commercialisation.

    As for Dhoni, it might be fatigue but he is going through a lean patch. Bichoo, you have given credit to the senior players for India’s no 1 Test ranking, but don’t you think the captain should also receive appreciation for the improvement in Zaheer Khan, Sehwag and Gambhir? The captain is always praised for extracting the best from his players.

    I think Dhoni is an excellent captain because he remains calm under pressure. He has demonstrated that in all the three formats of cricket. The other good captain that comes to mind in recent times was Ganguly, however Ganguly could not motivate the players like Dhoni has done. Even SRT said that Dhoni is the best captain he has played under. I think Dhoni’s Test replacement might be Sehwag who will find it difficult to maintain his performance with the bat if he is also captain. That is because risk plays a huge part in Sehwag’s batting, and he will be under pressure to bat more responsibly.

    Gambhir needs some more experience in Test cricket before he is appointed captain, whereas Laxman is too old now. India does not make fast bowlers captain, so it can’t be Jaheer. Harbhajan’s bowling is inconsistent, so it is unlikely to be him. So who will it be then? Making Sehwag captain is risky and Gambhir will be a wildcard choice.

  479. #482 by Josh mey aa gaya on August 3, 2011 - 1:18 AM

    Bichoo/Pawan

    Come on, we know that Zaheer Khan would have made a significant difference if he was present. England had Broad and Anderson who were picking up wickets dairly reguarly, except when either Laxman or Dravid were anchoring partnerships. India lacked a genuine wicket taker. Ian Bell is a good, no doubt, but he is not the class of Laxman or Dravid and he should have been dismissed. Ishant Sharma is good but lacks the killer instinct, Praveen is limited and Sreesanth is too inconsistent.

    However, every team must learn to win without having its strike bowler. This just shows how heavily India is dependent on its best players, whoever they are at the time.

    The other point is about mental strength- after Bell was recalled by Dhoni, India just gave up. That is the difference between Australian mentality and Indian mentality- Australians dominated the cricket scene for 10 years because they would fight till the last ball. If Pakistan had that mental strength with players like Inzamam, Yousuf, Younis, Shoaib Akhtar and Afridi in their side, they would have been the no 1 team and they would have dominated Australia for 10 years rather than vice versa.

  480. #483 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 3, 2011 - 1:57 AM

    Bichoo,

    You sure do have double standards. When it comes to Laxman or Dravd being promoted to face the, truth be told, moving ball, the team requires that flexibility, but when it comes to Tendulkar, there is that rigidity in the routine reminscent of obsessive compulsive disorder? Guess what, it is turning intoo a obsessive protective disorder!

    When it comes to Sehwag playing in the IPL, all blame be upon him, but when it comes to Tendulkar, all blame be upon the Ambanis.

    Then not playing on the seaming pitches of the West Indies wasn’t Tendulkar’s choice either? ;) He is variously both tired and underprepared at the same time (if you read once again what you said in the same paragraph before!). You might as well circumvent the whole world like Christopher Columbus to defend him, but inobody buys the notion now that it is he alone who plays and wins the match!

  481. #484 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 3, 2011 - 2:44 AM

    Konquest,

    I agree with you regarding Dhoni extracting the best out of both his batsmen and bowlers. In fact India used to have mediocre bowling, but under Dhoni they got together as a group of 4 good bowlers. The important thing is that they got England out twice and India could have won the match had they batted well. That is more than they can ask from their bowlers as they don’t have out-and-out matchwinners. On the other hand Dhoni made bold moves like persisting with Sehwag, bringing in Ghambir for subcontinental pitches, etc…Lastly, Dhoni is a great tactician of the game and has mastered everything from discreet bowling changes to time wasting at crucial times in order to stall momentum. It is because of these tactical moves, which have almost always proved correct in hindsight, that he won India the first 20/20 world cup, won India the one day world cup, and brought them to the number one ranking as a test team. For his all round skills I think he would be considered by some to be the greatest cricketer India has produced.

  482. #485 by Bichoo on August 3, 2011 - 4:32 AM

    Konquest / Sagaat,

    There is nothing that Dhoni did in Test arena to advance India’s wins that other captains haven’t.

    Let me shed light on some history here.

    There is a lot of ground work under Ganguly from 2001 through to 2006, when they won many tests overseas and even came close to winning a series in Australia against Steve Waugh’s Australian side. They drew 1-1 in 2003 in Australia.

    This current phase started under Rahul Dravid in 2006. First they won a series in WI, with Dravid scoring runs in Jamaica, and fast bowlers picking wickets. Then they won a Test in SA for the first time, with Sreesanth picking 8 wickets in the match.Then in 2007 they won in England 1-0. Zaheer Khan’s turnaround started at Trentbride test of 2007 where he picked up 9 wickets in the match to win that Test. Dravid was the captain then. After Dravid stepped down, Kumble was captain for a brief period, during this time they won a home series against Pakistan, then toured SL and Aus. While they lost 2-1 in SL because they were bamboozled by Mendis, they won a Test in Galle due to Sehwag batting, then seam bowlers won match. In Australia, everyone remember the infamous Sydeny test, but after that India won in Perth, a fast bowlers pitch. Kumble was captain then.

    Dhoni took over from Kumble and this pattern continued. It’s just that India did not lose any series after that. But they were getting better and better.

    So, it is Ganguly, Dravid, Kumble, and finally Dhoni in that order those were captains who took the team to success. People like Zaheer, Ishant, Sreesanth, RP Singh, Harbhajan, Kumble, to name a few have all contributed in bowling. It’s not just Dhoni who motivated players.

    I think you guys just like everyone else is giving Dhoni credit when he was lucky to inherit this rich legacy. Something like Ricky Pointing inherited a great team and kept wining, everyone though he is a great captain, but when he started losing everyone realized he wasn’t after all that great.

    Dhoni is good, but he alone doesn’t deserve credit for motivating players.

  483. #486 by Mohammed Munir on August 3, 2011 - 5:44 AM

    Javed Khan …

    LOL @ Fevicol Handshake. Poor guy, must be feeling lucky. ;)

    BTW, Fevicol have some really nice and funny advertisements. Liked them.

    On Danny Booaye’s poster, well he is no comparison for the posh-looking Hina Bibbi, but since LS is is more about cricket/ sports, we can live with Danny Booaye for now. Nevertheless, we can always replace Danny with a smart and handsome cricketer like Shahid Afridi. :D

  484. #487 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 3, 2011 - 1:01 PM

    Munir

    Feeling lucky? Sala hath nai dhoya hoga uss din kay baad say aaj tak. :D

  485. #488 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 3, 2011 - 8:00 PM

    Bichoo

    Your prayers have been answered. Take a look at this, especially the photo of CrappBhajjan

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2011/content/current/story/525791.html

    Yuvraj too out, both replaced by Ojha and Kohli.

  486. #489 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 3, 2011 - 8:05 PM

    I was reduced to zero after World Cup heroics: Afridi

    August 2, 2011 (2 days ago)

    I have always maintained that playing for Pakistan is my priority: Shahid Afridi.—AFP photo

    KARACHI: Former Pakistan captain Shahid Afridi has once again launched a stinging attack at the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) and the management of the national team.

    Speaking to the media at the launch of his new business venture ‘Fashion Valley’ the seasoned all-rounder stated that he was reduced to a ‘zero’ only a few days after being hailed as a national hero following the spirited performance of the team in the World Cup.

    Afridi, who announced his retirement from international cricket in controversial circumstances after his abrupt removal from captaincy by the PCB at the end of the West Indies tour, was replaced at the helm by Misbah-ul-Haq for the ODI series against Ireland. Besides that, Afridi was also fined Rs4.5 million by the Board’s disciplinary committee which had earlier canceled his NOC for participation in the English T20 competition where he was to represent Hampshire.

    The flamboyant big-hitter on Monday expressed dismay at PCB Chairman Ijaz Butt’s attitude during the entire retirement controversy and said it was unbecoming of a chairman and had caused him great distress.

    Afridi reiterated his stance of not playing under the present regime of the cricket board. “I cannot play with people who conspired against me and worked against the team, they have their personal interests paramount to them and they are only damaging the team.”

    He added that he had his heart in representing his country and did not want to let down millions of fans who reposed their confidence in him time and again.

    “I have always maintained that playing for Pakistan is my priority, I would always prefer representing my country over any offer from anywhere in the world,” said an emotionally charged Afridi.

    He thanked his fans and said that he had earned the respect of the nation due to his forthright attitude and passion for the game.

    Afridi, who captained the team to ODI series win over the West Indies, dispelled the notion that his behaviour had cost the team the last two matches of the series.

    “I did not take part in the selection meeting on the eve of the last two matches. The team was selected by coach Waqar Younis and Intikhab Alam and I had no input in the selection of the playing eleven.”

    Afridi insisted that the national selection committee needed to be consistent in its policies of inducting new players in the team but should refrain from over-experimenting. “A pool of players need to be groomed for the years to come to raise a solid playing XI for Pakistan,” he said.

  487. #490 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 3, 2011 - 8:07 PM

    As long as Ijaz Butt is the Chairman of the PCB, tou Cheemay Sheemay hee Keemay urraingay! Now a new nut case has replaced Old Anti-Alam and he is known as, Naveed Akram Cheema!

  488. #491 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 3, 2011 - 8:11 PM

    The news is Sehwag will join struggling India, but what can he do if he is also unfit? Like name dropping doesn’t impresses me, big names included in the team and if they are not fit, also does not impress me. If he is unfit, he should not play otherwise if he fails they will ridicule him just as Zaheer is being ridiculed.

    Harbhajjan is NOT injured that excuse is just a face saving device. Sala Pait say bowling kerta ya hath say?

  489. #492 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 3, 2011 - 8:12 PM

    BTW, Munir tum ko pata hai Fevicol has been extracted from dawgs? :D

  490. #493 by Bichoo on August 4, 2011 - 4:07 AM

    Javed Khan,

    Yeah, I saw the news and I am very happy, in fact I knew they will drop him this time, no place to hide this under achiever anywhere.

    Crapster Bhajji is faking injury to save face. I said it before. The picture looks so fake. He should be sent back to domestic cricket in India, where he bowls against some heavy scoring batsmen who plays spin so well. This will teach him. He need to prove against those guys by taking wickets, only then he should be allowed back.

    In fact, good thing Yuvraj is also out. I was never impresse with UV’s credentials as a Test batsman, every time he goes out to bat against some decent fast or spin bowler with attacking field setting he looks like a deer in the headlight. His technique is so crappy against the short ball.

    At one point he was not out, but the England players raised a half appeal and he was walking away, then umpire did not say anything so he had to come back, much to his reluctance.

    See the highlight, Yuvraj wanted to give up and get out after getting hit by a few bouncers, he didn’t care about team or situation, he was willing to walk off even when he was not really out.

    Pathetic attitude. Even Dhoni has not fight in him. Dhoni wanted to get out too quickly.

    Raina was crap against short balls.

    Virat Kohli had such a tough time in West Indies against Fidel Edwards and Ravi Rampaul. What will Broad, Anderson, and Tremlett do to him.

    IPL heros are finding out Test cricket is no place for boys to hang out. This is the test for real men. Only the big three, plus Sehwag and Tendulkar cut it. Once these guys are gone, Indian do not have any one in the pipeline of their caliber. What India has is the likes of Vijay, Mukund, Raina, Kohli, etc. Bunch of T20 players.

  491. #494 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 4, 2011 - 4:11 AM

    Bichoo,

    I think you’d agree that drawing against SA in SA was an achievement. In the same way India demolished Australia in India. And, then, India came back and drew from 0-1 down against SA in India. All these are achievements under Dhoni.

    It is not just us who say this but respected commentators of the game also feel that he seems to get the best out of the players. Javed Khan referred to this as being manipulative or sly, but he has that tactical mind in him to make a great captain. Not only is he gelling the team together, but he is also getting the best out of the bowlers while having the tactical mind and composure required of a good captain. That is a great captain. Probably better than Imran Khan as I understand Imran Khan wasn’t as tactically sound as Dhoni is…with a one day batting average of around 50, a test average of 36, being a wicketkeeper, and a great captain, I think he is the most influential cricketer India has produced.

  492. #495 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 4, 2011 - 4:14 AM

    Bichoo,

    Yaar you wanted Yuvraj in the team before and now you want him out of the team ;) Dhoni and Yuvraj both are players made for subcontinental conditions, but they struggle (or should struggle) in England/South Africa.

  493. #496 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 4, 2011 - 4:18 AM

    Bichoo,

    I also used to say that, sending incompetent players for prolonged stints in domestic cricket would be an apt punishment. One reason is the low pay and then there is the excessive heat. I suppose great minds think alike;)

  494. #497 by Josh mey aa gaya on August 4, 2011 - 8:45 AM

    Prior to this England series India had only lost 2 Tests under Dhoni’s captaincy.

    They had won 13 and drawn 9.

    That is probably the best record held by an Indian captain.

  495. #498 by Truth is Stranger than Fiction on August 4, 2011 - 9:35 AM

    Here’s something interesting:

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-robot-ability.html

    In other words these robots have creativity. Now it is one thing for the robots to posses intelligence, that is, the ability to learn information and do what they have learnt, but what this implies is that once the robot learns information, it can dissect it to create new avenues of thinking and perform new tasks on its own. What is more, the idea is to have these robots to have intelligence+ creativity (that is, a human) and make them sit together at the internet, search and inculcating information from each other, and then using it in new ways. Now there are two things that come to mind:

    1) A hacker who hacks into the mind of this robot might reprogramme it to kill its owner (say, ask it to mix poison in the owner’s coffee)
    2) If these robots have creativity like humans, they might themselves, without being programmed, start harming their owners and people collectively (precisely because they have creativity and may do things they aren’t programmed to do).

    On the debate of evolution, I have always argued that evolution conditions every outcome on the instinct to survive. But why do things strive to survive and aren’t neutral to survival/death?

    The first answer I got from a professor was that, the instinct to survive comes first and then comes evolution. It wasn’t a satisfactory answer.

    But within this contect, suppose if we can design these robots with an increasing level of sophistication, would they one day think of humans as competition and self-propagate?
    Within this lies, I believe, the answer to the question of evolution. And, I think, they will not self-propagate unless they are programmed to do so. And, if they are programmed to do survive, then that implies a programmer. Mush like humans being programmed to survive rather than coming together through chance, and chance alone.

    This again is what is presented in mainstream science and almost inevitably the govts would have much more capable machines, probably more sophisticated than humans. But hopefully they are pre-programmed to kill themselves and they have limited their creativity to not go around that instruction.

    So, we could think of humans as robots, or soon enough, robots as humans. These mini Newguys, I tell you, will one day be the greatest danger to society.

  496. #499 by Josh mey aa gaya on August 4, 2011 - 10:10 AM

    For all of Ponting’s greatness as a batsman, he only averages 26 in India in Tests and 42 in England- arguably the two most difficult cricket environments for an Australian.

  497. #500 by Josh mey aa gaya on August 4, 2011 - 12:21 PM

    “Why should we comment on Afridi? He is a retired player and he can say what he wants…….”: a PCB official when asked about Afridi’s recent comments

  498. #501 by Josh mey aa gaya on August 4, 2011 - 12:57 PM

    “I left the team because there were many influential people working against me. I was just one person fighting many forces. The situation would have become out of control had I remained in the team“: Shahid Afridi

  499. #502 by Josh mey aa gaya on August 4, 2011 - 1:01 PM

    PCB was working against me. They would announce the team first and captain later, to humiliate me. Only Mohsin Bhai used to gather my input occasionally: Shahid Afridi

  500. #503 by JAVED A. KHAN on August 4, 2011 - 2:34 PM

    Wasim Akram on Waqar Younis and Shahid Afridi.

    Speaking of Afridi, were you surprised that there’s been talk of an issue between him and the coach Waqar Younis?

    Not at all. It was a matter of time. The problem in Pakistan is that the coach wants power. Why does a coach need power? He’s there to coach the team and support and assist the captain. He can’t be above the captain. Prime example: Gary Kirsten was the coach of India for three years. I hardly saw him on television. He was never in the forefront. He was always behind the scenes, and that’s how coaches should be. I don’t understand why a coach wants power when it’s the captain who has to do battle on the field, and it’s the job of the coach and the vice-captain to support the captain. We don’t have that mentality. I really don’t understand why the coach needs a say in the composition of the playing XI.

    I’m coaching in the IPL and I’m there to support the captain. If the captain says I want A, B or C, that’s what he’ll get. Obviously if I’m asked for advice I’ll tell the skipper what I think is the difference between two players. If he still thinks that player A is better suited than player B for a particular game, then I support that decision. That’s what coaches should do in Pakistan as well.

  501. #504 by Pawan on August 4, 2011 - 5:18 PM

    Now Wasim Akram is also supporting Shahid Afridi.
    Wonder what bit Waqar Younis?
    Everything was going so well for the Pakistan cricket.

  502. #505 by Pawan on August 4, 2011 - 5:22 PM

    Meanwhile India crises..
    Gavaskar has come out strongly against the technique of youngsters.
    Raina, Yuvraj, Mukund who score runs by the million on sub-continent pitches
    have been found wanting against the moving ball.
    Any surprise? Well, no technique whatsoever.
    I wonder how Sehwag will fare?
    He doesn’t seem to have any technique either.
    I also wonder what Gavaskar will say about Sehwag, if he scores big?