IND-PAK CRICKET ZINDABAD 

INDIA AND PAKISTAN FLAGS ON CRICKET GROUNDS

INDIA AND PAKISTAN FLAGS ON CRICKET GROUNDS

INDIA PAKISTAN FLAGS ON THE BORDERS

INDIA PAKISTAN FLAGS ON THE BORDERS

The Mumbai siege is over. The purpose of the previous thread was to condemn terrorism & to offer condolences to those effected directly and indirectly. As expected the thread was turning into a political debate. So, lets put a lid on IT and lets discuss cricket. If anyone wants to continue discussing that issue, they can do so on the Politics Page.

Lalit Modi, the BCCI vice president, has said India could go Pakistan’s way in losing out on international series if terrorist attacks continue. In 2008 India has witnessed blasts in Jaipur, Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Delhi, Guwahati (during Australia’s tour), and now Wednesday’s terrorist attacks in Mumbai.

In order to avoid that both, India and Pakistan must play cricket as per the schedule. So far the blasts took place in India and Pakistan but, none of them were targeted towards cricket players or the teams, other than minor threats from some radical groups. Still they went on playing the game as usual. If they stop playing now, it will be a victory for the terrorists. So, lets defeat them on this ground and keep the spirit of cricket diplomacy alive.

CRICKET FANS LOVE AND ENJOY CRICKET

THE WATCH TOGETHER AND ENJOY TOGETHER

THEY WATCH TOGETHER AND ENJOY TOGETHER

Dhoni and Tendulkar both gave statements to the press a day before the Mumbai siege that Pakistan is not a safe place to go or play cricket. The situation has changed now, both are in the same boat now. There is no point in agreeing to play India Pakistan series in the UAE or at any neutral ground. There is so much money involved in cricket through the media and why should they dish it out to a third country?

THIS IS HOW THEY ENJOY WATCHING CRICKET

THIS IS HOW THEY ENJOY WATCHING CRICKET

The cricket fans in India and Pakistan and the authorities concerned will fight against any kinda terrorism that will create obstacles in promoting the game. In India and also in Pakistan cricket is like a religion for some and they follow it great enthusiasm. So, lets not feel threatened by these people and keep the cricket momentum in continuum.

THEY GET WARM WELCOME IN INDIA

THEY GET WARM WELCOME IN INDIA

I would ask our bloggers to come forward and express their views and demand from the authorities to keep the series alive and do not cancel or even postpone it for a future date. So, please express your feelings in promoting the game of cricket, for the sake of cricket, by the lovers of cricket.

AND THEY GET A WARM WELCOME IN PAKISTAN TOO

AND THEY GET A WARM WELCOME IN PAKISTAN TOO

The cricket diplomacy has brought peace between the two countries and for the first time in 2004, after many years the Indian team came to Pakistan and since then they are playing regularly. Therefore, they must play regularly without fearing the terror attacks, which so far has not hurt any cricket player of any team. If the Australians, the South Africans or the English team wants to stay away from India and Pakistan, they should do so. They are the ones who would be losing.

Its time now that they rethink about lifting the ban from ICL. Let there be more Lahore Badshahs and Delhi Maharajas. Both India and Pakistan have so much talent that they can produce a dozen cricket teams of very high standards. So, instead of wooing, brooding and lamenting that the foreign teams or foreign players are not going to visit India and Pakistan, consider it as an opportunity – a blessing in disguise to boost the local standards of cricket by playing together. Sri Lanka and Bangladesh won’t mind coming to India and Pakistan as they understand the situation better than others. So, once again lets raise a big slogan for the sake of cricket – CRICKET ZINDABAD.

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  1. #1 by Abdul on November 29, 2008 - 5:47 PM

    Pakistan and India are under a crisis currently reagarding suicide attacks and hostages. The best way to bring peace and unity for the people is by competing in a lenghty series to overshadow these terrorim porblems and also under guranteed 100% security the series should be fine. Let us hope the cricket goes ahead in one of the venues of Pakistan or India but allow us to accept the fact if it goes ahead in a neutral nation following for security reasons.

    If England don’t play the test series there is a chance for an extended test series of 5 test matches of PAK-IND which is really required to fulfill Pakistan’s empty schedule and provide there fans with something to enjoy.

  2. #2 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 29, 2008 - 11:19 PM

    A difficult decision to take in the coming weeks “whether to play test matches or not?” Andrew Flintoff and Steve Harmison plus another bowler have confirmed that even the venue has changed from Mumbai to Chennai, they are not coming back to India to play the two test matches. Kevin Pietersen is saying he is “still shaking” from the Mumbai incident. He said, ‘although we are 800 miles away from Mumbai but, the thought that two weeks ago we were staying in the same hotel in Mumbai where the massacre took place and its hard to get over with it.’

    I can imagine how he must be feeling or whoever stayed there prior to the attack must be feeling now.

    The point is IF India insist on England coming back to India to play the test matches to meet their financial and other commitment, then are they going to do the same when the time will come for them to tour Pakistan?

    In the later case it is not just the financial commitment but, it will be a moral victory for cricket and a defeat to the terrorists. So, lets keep our fingers crossed and see what the government and the authorities will decide?

  3. #3 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 9:58 AM

    NWFP clinch first Pentangular Cup

    By Mohammad Yaqoob

    Saturday, 29 Nov, 2008 4

    LAHORE: The North West Frontier Province (NWFP) annexed their first national cricket title when they defeated Balochistan by 28 runs in the final of the RBS Pentangular Cup at the Gaddafi Stadium here on Friday.
    The NWFP, who won all of their four games in the league stage, needed only 25 deliveries on the fifth and final morning to dislodge the last Balochistan batsman.
    Appropriately, skipper Umar Gul had the honour claiming the wicket of Azharullah after Balochistan, chasing 272, had resumed at 234 for nine.
    Azharullah failed to add to his overnight score of five. Last man Zulfiqar Babar remained unbeaten with a 46-ball 21.
    Yasir Shah, the leg-spinner who turned the match in NWFP’s favour on the decisive fourth day was adjudged Man-of-the-Match for taking six for 87.
    Yasir received cash prize of Rs50,000. The NWFP, besides winning the coveted trophy were awarded with the winners’ purse of Rs1 million while Balochistan skipper Misbah-ul-Haq collected of Rs500,000 on behalf of his team.
    Among individual awards, worth Rs50,000 each, Saeed bin Nasir claimed two prizes since he was adjudged the tournament’s best batsman (419 runs) as well as its best fielder (11 catches).
    Paceman Shakeel-ur-Rehman, who played a key in the NWFP success, bagged the best bowler prize for picking 29 wickets while his team-mate Zulfiqar Jan was declared the best wicket-keeper for making 25 dismissals (all caught).

  4. #4 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 10:03 AM

    This is a historic moment in Pakistan’s history as NWFP clinched their first Pentangular title.

    Baluchistan reached the finals and many might be surprised, however I am not since bar one, everyone in the team was from Punjab. They were players like Misbah ul Haq who has a wealth of domestic experience.

    Same goes for Federal Areas which had all experienced players from Punjab, except Umair Khan who is from the NWFP.

    Sindh performed miserably, mostly due to three key players, Afridi, Fawad Alam and Khurram Manzoor not playing all the matches.

    Credit must go to Nasim Ashraf who in his tenure did a lot for development of cricket in the NWFP.

  5. #5 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 11:35 AM

    LS Breaking News

    India has cancelled its tour of Pakistan. The possibility of playing at neutral venues has also been ruled out.

    PCB in shambles and Pakistan faces international isolation……

  6. #6 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 11:51 AM

    Growing rift threatens to tear India apart

    Hindu-Muslim tensions will rise further

    Aatish Taseer

    Barely a couple of weeks ago my stepsister, Shalaka, got married at the Taj hotel in Mumbai. Last Wednesday night my stepfather, Ajit, called to pay the bill. When he arrived home 10 minutes later he realised he had left his mobile phone charger behind, so he called Mandira, the Taj banquet manager.

    “I can’t speak now, sir,” she said. “We’re under attack.”

    Ajit lives in a building next door to Mumbai’s other big hotel, the Oberoi. Within a few moments, he heard gunshots from there too.

    In the 48 hours that followed, his neighbourhood was sealed off and his building came under attack. In the windows of the Oberoi he saw deserted rooms, half-drawn curtains, fires, brown smoke and gunmen moving from floor to floor.

    By Friday, he knew that three chefs who had worked at his daughter’s wedding and the family of the Taj’s general manager were dead. Friends of his sisters had also been killed. As terrorist attacks went — and Mumbai has known several in the past few years — it didn’t come much closer to home than this.

    My stepfather’s reaction came in the form of a text message the next day. It read: “Pardon Afzal [Muhammad Afzal, accused of attacking the Indian parliament in 2001], hang Sadhvi [a woman accused of participating in the only act of Hindu terrorism in a Muslim neighbourhood], Ban the Bajrang Dal [a Hindu extremist organisation], talk to Simi [a Muslim student organisation of which the Indian mujaheddin, responsible for a string of attacks in Indian cities, is said to be a part], restrict the Amarnath pilgrimage [a Hindu pilgrimage that led to upheavals in the Kashmir valley last summer] fund the Haj. Wow! Truly, my India is great! Fwd 2all Hindus.”

    This message, steeped in irony, read like a roll call of the issues and violence that have divided Hindu and Muslim India over the past year. Almost a call to arms, it contained the great, twofold rage that has grown in Hindu India: the feeling that Islamic terrorism seeks to destroy the vigorous “new India” and the suspicion that the state is either unable or unwilling to defend itself — for cynical reasons, such as shoring up the Muslim vote for the government.

    The attacks on Mumbai — a city that, in its prosperity, its hybridity and openness to the world, stands as a symbol of the new and energised India — confirmed to many what they had long feared.

    Within hours of the attacks, groups gathered in the streets of Mumbai, chanting “Bharat Mata ki Jai” (Victory to Mother India) and singing “Vande Mataram” (Bow to you Mother), a patriotic song that Muslims had objected to as the choice for the national anthem because it implied obeisance to gods other than Allah.

    Many British commentators have asked in surprise why India is being targeted. There is no confusion among Indians themselves. When the terrorists say on their websites that they seek to break up India and reclaim it for Islam, they speak a language many Hindu Indians understand. And India has proved to be the softest of soft targets.

    More than 4,000 Indians have died in terrorist attacks — the country is the second biggest victim of terror after Iraq and virtually every one of its big cities has faced a terrorist attack. Yet the government has no centralised terrorist database, its intelligence is abysmal and there is little evidence that the state knows who it is fighting.

    In dragging its feet, the Indian state does nobody a greater disservice than Indian Muslims. When there are no real suspects, arrests or trials, everyone becomes a suspect. Already an underclass, with low literacy rates, low incomes and poor representation in government jobs, Indian Muslims are increasingly alienated. There is also great pressure on them.

    Nobody wants to listen to genuine grievances about poverty, illiteracy and unemployment in the face of a real threat to the country. Many Hindus want Muslims to come clean on the issue of the jihad and to make clear whose side they’re on.

    Far from responding positively to this pressure, some Indian Muslims are simply beginning to see their grievances as part of a global conflict between Muslim and non-Muslim.

    India’s position in this is unique. It has the largest Muslim minority population in the world (13.4% of the population, or about 150m) but unlike Muslims in western Europe, they are not immigrants.

    They have been part of India for centuries.

    This is why all Indians — Muslims and Hindu alike — know that the deepening divide threatens the country’s existence.

    Many years ago, a divide like this re-energised the Hindu nationalist BJP. Today who knows who it might throw up? The hour of men like Narendra Modi, who oversaw a pogrom of Indian Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, might have come at last.

    Aatish Taseer is the author of Stranger to History: A Son’s Journey through Islamic Lands, to be published in March by Canongate.

  7. #7 by Varun Suri on November 30, 2008 - 11:55 AM

    Well, Neither England series is ON nor Pakistan. There will be no Cricket this winter anymore for US. Tensions are bound to increase. People are getting restless and elections are round the corner.

    On the other hand, For a change both the governments are atleast looking to work together by sharing the evidence although skeptics would always be there.

  8. #8 by Qasim on November 30, 2008 - 12:09 PM

    this is a very sad state of affairs. there are reports of a 4th possibly nuclear war between pakistan and india.

    pakistan and india should unite and become one country. why has india decided to mix politics with cricket again? i think it is wrong to cancel Pakistani tour unless and until they have evidence linking the pakistan govt or ISI with these attacks.

    India-Pakistan cricket Zindabad. cricket is supposed to bring us together, why are we making decisions like this?

  9. #9 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 12:14 PM

    Pakistan is also a victim of terrorism.

    Al Qaeda has struck in Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, Peshawar and all other big cities.

    Pakistan faces terrorism in Baluchistan from Baluchi separatists.

    Pakistan faces terrorism in Karachi from MQM, Pushtuns and Sindhis.

    Pakistan faces terrorism in NWFP from Al Qaeda, Taliban and rogue tribesmen.

    Muridke, Raiwind and Sargodha in Punjab are becoming hotspots for recruitment of terrorists.

    Pakistan is a victim of terrorism, it is not a terrorist state.

  10. #10 by Rehan Khan on November 30, 2008 - 12:39 PM

    Great coverage of war on terror and pakistan vs india series, guys.

    this is how pakistan should now respond:

    1. cancell pakistan’s tour of india in 2010

    2. unban ICL players. and NEVER agree with BCCI about anything in the future.

    I am sorry to offend anyone, but I dont think India is interested in peace with Pakistan.

    because it is stupid to think the government of pakistan can be responsible for these mumbai attacks. pakistan is a country of 170 million people, terrorists cant be eliminated overnight.

    QASIM, brother you are 100% correct because cricket could bring the 2 countries together but indian government is always mixing politics with cricket.

  11. #11 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 30, 2008 - 3:25 PM

    Varun #7

    Yeah, it is very unfortunate that the India Pakistan series have been called off. I doubt about England coming back to play the two tests under these circumstances and, no one would blame them.

    Although the governments of both countries are trying their best to keep the emotions calm but, for how long? Indian Home Minister Shivraj Patil and national security adviser MK Narayanan have submitted their resignations, Patil’s resignation has been accepted.

    Now, this is something that you don’t see these days, not even in the west any minister would resign and in Pakistan those who have looted and robbed the country come back to rule. Mir Hazaar Khan Bajrani has such a shady background and he is back in the country as the Minister of Education in Pakistan.

    So, at least there is some moral values among the Indian Ministers who are taking the blame on them before the completion of the investigation.

    The media is playing havoc on both sides by publishing new stories everyday only to sell themselves like cheap prostitutes. The Indian media is trying to point fingers at Pakistan and the Pakistani media is trying not only to defend themselves but, are trying to prove that it is all from within the country(India).

    There are pictures of the terrorists circulating through email, India claims they are Pakistanis and they even found a Pakistani driver’s license in one of the terrorists pocket. The Pakistani media is asking who would do such a stupid thing? Especially since they were on a suicide mission was he planning to drive back home after the siege? Also, the Pakistani media showing the same picture of the terrorist with a saffron thread tied on his wrist which they claim that the Shiv Sainiks tie on their wrists. Hence he is not a Pakistani.

    Mudslinging and finger pointing at each other is going on and it is so trivial, because neither the driver’s license proves anything nor the saffron thread, because anyone can plant a DL in his pocket or anyone could tie that saffron thread to disguise themselves.

    There are also rumours that the ATS chief was shot in a friendly fire, rather a deliberate fire to keep him away from the previous cases in which he was uncovering a plot against the Hindu fundamentalists. So, he was made an escape goat in this mission.

    Its on the main TV news and its on the internet too, that within moments of the attack the Hindu Fundamentalists were on the streets raising slogans of “Bharat Mata ki Jai” and “Vande Matram”. The analysts are asking questions that for everyone else it was a moment of shock and terror and these fundos were raising slogans without knowing who has done it and why? So, were they aware of who is doing and why?

    Its all so sickening to hear this. And my worst fears are when things will get worse if any communal riot erupts in retaliation. Within a week or 10 days from now there will be Eid ul Adha (sacrifice) and there is already tension mounting in India if the situation is not handled properly the communal riots could occur on the Eid Day. Once again, only the innocent people would suffer. So, lets hope and pray for the best.

  12. #12 by Abdul on November 30, 2008 - 3:48 PM

    What a pity that the test series is not going ahead following Pakistans accusation of involvment in the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

    A great loss to both countries from a supporters point of view as Paksitan’s empty schedule continues.

  13. #13 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 4:00 PM

    India says no decision yet on Pakistan tour

    Sunday, 30 Nov, 2008 |

    NEW DELHI: The Indian government is yet to decide whether to allow the national cricket team to tour Pakistan, amid serious doubts following the attacks in Mumbai, a government spokesman said on Sunday.

    ‘Since the tour is in January there is still some time, we are discussing the issue,’ foreign ministry spokesman Vishnu Prakash told Reuters.

    The Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) has sought permission to tour amid security concerns over playing in Pakistan.

    The three-day rampage which killed nearly 200 people in Mumbai have dimmed hopes after the Indian government said it had proof of a Pakistani link, straining political ties between the south Asian neighbours.

    Indian media quoted unnamed cricket officials on Sunday as saying the tour appeared doubtful. Indian board secretary N. Srinivasan refused to comment.

    There have also been reports that some England players are reluctant to return to India later this week to play a two-test series.

    ‘I would not, if somebody felt strongly, force their arm,’ England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) managing director Hugh Morris said on Saturday.

    England called off the last two games of a one-day series to return home following the attacks, with the two boards agreeing to go ahead with the tests.

    The Pakistan tour would depend on a security assessment, Prakash said.

    ‘Before any tour is undertaken an advance team goes and carries out an assessment. The team has not gone. We will wait for the team’s visit and its report on return before deciding anything.’

    The Indian team did not go on a full tour of Pakistan for nearly 15 years until 2004 due to political tensions.

    The Pakistan Cricket Board has already raised concerns the attacks could scupper the series.

    India are due to play three tests, five one-dayers and a Twenty20 international in the Jan. 13 to Feb. 19 tour.

    MEDIA REPORTS

    The NDTV and CNN-IBN news channels, quoting unnamed government sources, said the matches were cancelled and also unlikely to be played at neutral venues.

    The Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) declined to comment on the reports, saying its request for a security clearance for the tour was pending with the government.

    The tour was first put in doubt earlier this month when the Indian government denied permission to the national junior hockey team to visit Pakistan.

    The BCCI is also waiting for England to confirm next week’s two-Test tour of India after the last two one-day matches were cancelled and the tourists returned home following the Mumbai attacks.

    The BCCI shifted the second Test from Mumbai to Chennai, but retained Vadodara as the venue for a three-day practice match from December 5 and the first Test in Ahmedabad from December 11.

  14. #14 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 4:10 PM

    Hundreds rally to keep peace between Pakistan and India

    Sunday, 30 Nov, 2008

    LAHORE: More than 1,000 activists marched in the eastern city of Lahore and urged Pakistan and India to refrain from hostilities after the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

    The participants of the rally, organised by the Pakistan Awami Tehreek (Pakistan People’s Movement) political party, marched on a main road and dispersed in front of the provincial assembly building.

    Men and women carrying Pakistani flags chanted slogans such as ‘We want peace, no war” and “’ndia should refrain from allegations’ amid reports that Indian investigators suspect that heavily-armed militants who killed nearly 200 people came from Pakistan.

    Indian investigators have focused on Pakistan-based Islamic militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, which has denied involvement. Pakistan’s government has also denied any role and offered help in investigations.

    Separately, elders of North Waziristan tribal district on Sunday offered the Pakistani government complete support if tensions spill over into fighting with India and urged it to halt ongoing military operations against Taliban militants.

    ‘We can send one million armed tribal figthers to the eastern border with India, while the remaining two million can guard the western frontier (with Afghanistan),’ tribal elder Malik Mohammad Afzal said in a joint press conference with other local chiefs in Miranshah, main town of North Waziristan.

    Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, an umbrella group of Taliban militants, also offered unconditional support to the Pakistani government if hostilities break out with India.

    ‘If India attacked any part of Pakistan, the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan will put aside all its differences with the government and would not hesitate to give any kind of sacrifice to defend the frontiers,’ deputy leader Maulana Faqir Mohammad told reporters in Khar.

    Khar is the main town of Bajaur tribal district, where a major Pakistani military operation against Al-Qaeda linked militants has killed more than 1,500 militants since August.

  15. #16 by Abdul on November 30, 2008 - 8:42 PM

    Lets hope the peaceful relations between Pakistan and India don’t break out with possibilities . In the 21st century the unity between the neighbours have been immense and cricket has and internet advances have really united the nations togther .

    Cricket Zindabad and Chuck de India aur Paksiatn ur duah sari kari es hamisha hoiga.

  16. #17 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 8:50 PM

    Abdul

    Nice to read your views encouraging friendship between India and Pakistan.

    Do you think there will be a nuclear war between the two nations?

  17. #18 by khansahab on November 30, 2008 - 9:27 PM

    Indian subcontinent may lose 2011 World Cup: Report

    Continuous terror attacks in the sub-continent has cast a shadow over the 2011 Cricket World Cup to be jointly hosted by India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh with the International Cricket Council contemplating of keeping a stand-by venue for the mega-event.

    According to a newspaper report, the ICC is expected to discuss the issue in its Executive Council meeting in South Africa next week.

    The report also stated that if the ICC decides to shift the event, Australia and New Zealand, the co-host in 2015, are the prime contenders for staging the tournament.

    Cricket Australia has already started endorsing the idea with chief executive James Sutherland saying safety and security issues surrounding the 2011 World Cup were `bound to come up` in the ICC meeting.

    “It hasn`t been talked about but that may well have changed out of this Mumbai incident but one would hope the World Cup and other events that are planned for various places in the sub-continent can go ahead as planned,” he said

    “But there will be plenty of things that will need to be planned in the fullness of time.”

    Sutherland said he did not know if another country had already been put on standby for the 2011 tournament, and was non-committal when asked if Australia would have enough time to prepare for the event if handed over.

    “I don`t know the answer to that. It`s something that down the track would need to be looked at, but we are very keen for it to go ahead where it has already been allocated.”

    “Let`s see how things settle down after the tragic events of Mumbai.”

    Meanwhile, ICC spokesman James Fitzgerald said the World body is yet to discuss anything on the issue but if the tournament has to be shifted, the decision has to be made at the earliest.

    “A decision would have to be made soon if that was to happen because we need a good run in to get the World Cup ready on time,” Fitzgerald said.

    Cricket playing nations, especially Australia, New Zealand, England and South Africa have cancelled several tours of Pakistan for security reasons.

    Australia`s Federal Government have even adviced the nation`s cricket team to avoid Sri Lanka because of the civil war and Bangladesh for general trouble and the latest to join the list is India, which has witnessed the deadliest terror strike in its history in the financial capital of Mumbai.

  18. #19 by khansahab on December 1, 2008 - 12:04 AM

    PCB confirm Yousuf contract is terminated

    Nov 8, 2008 |
    Pakistan Cricket Board media release:

    The following letter was sent to Mohammed Yousuf from the PCB on November 7, 2008 after his decision to re-sign for the Indian Cricket League.

    Subject: Termination of Contract

    That you Muhammad Yousaf signed, entered into and executed a contract (Central Contract) with the PCB vide Deed dated 1st January 2008 – That by doing so you bound yourself by the terms and conditions stated therein.

    That on 3/11/08 it came to light that you had violated and breached the terms of the aforementioned Central Contract by yet again signing up and thereby agreeing to participate in the Indian Cricket League (neither recognized nor approved by the ICC and PCB) in India.

    That through a Press Conference dated 4/11/08 you confirmed and reinforced the breach of Contract by admitting your decision to participate in the ICL.

    That by doing so you have breached, violated and contumaciously and consciously acted in contravention of clauses 1.4.2, 2.1.1 (a) + (b), 2.2.1 (d), 2.2.2, 2.3 and 4.1 of the Central Contract.

    In view of your misconduct the PCB acting in term of clause 13.1 read with 1.4.2 has decided to terminate your contract with immediate effect. The contract, therefore, stands terminated as of today.

    Furthermore, the PCB hereby bans, forbids and stops you from playing any form of representative cricket (dept, association, club) in Pakistan. This ban also applies in the case of teams under PCB’s jurisdiction but playing outside Pakistan.

    Separately, the PCB is entitled to recover from you costs (in the form of expenses) incurred by the PCB on your long drawn out litigation with the ICL. Since you by your conduct and action have deceived the PCB and compromised the very stance for which Rs one crore sixty eight thousand were spent by the PCB for your benefit all payments (if any) to you by the PCB are immediately stopped so as to offset PCB’s aforementioned expenses.

    Furthermore, the PCB puts you on notice in terms of clauses 13.2 and 13.4 of the Central Contract for a suit for recovery and consequential damages based on inter alia unjust enrichment and breach of trust and contract.

    Salim Altaf, Director General PCB

  19. #20 by khansahab on December 1, 2008 - 12:06 AM

    I wonder if Yousuf wanted to challenge this notice saying that since his name is “YousUf” and not “YousAf”, the PCB is talking about a different individual?

  20. #21 by khansahab on December 1, 2008 - 3:26 PM

    ‘Pakistan cricketers should cut ties with Indian leagues’

    December 1st, 2008 – 7:12 pm ICT by IANS –

    Karachi, Dec 1 (IANS) Former Pakistan captain Rashid Latif Monday urged leading national cricketers to cut off ties with cash-rich Twenty20 Indian leagues following Indian claims about Pakistan’s alleged involvement in the Mumbai killings.Latif, an outspoken former Pakistan Test wicket-keeper, said that a number of leading Pakistani cricketers who are linked to the Indian Premier League (IPL) and the unofficial Indian Cricket League (ICL) should immediately cancel their contracts.

    “It’s important for a cricketer to play professional cricket but there are times when the country should come first,” said Latif, who blew the whistle on the match-fixing scandal that rocked Pakistan cricket in the nineties.

    A number of top Pakistan cricketers including skipper Shoaib Malik, Shoaib Akhtar, Shahid Afridi, Younis Khan, Sohail Tanvir and Umar Gul are contracted to play for the IPL that is run by the Indian cricket board.

    Almost 20 Pakistani cricketers including former captain Inzamam-ul-Haq, Mohammad Yousuf, all-rounder Abdul Razzaq, openers Imran Nazir and Imran Farhat and pacers Mohammad Sami and Rana Naved-ul-Hasan are a part of the rebel ICL that is owned by Indian billionaire Subhash Chandra.

    A few Pakistan cricketers including Sohail Tanvir, wicket-keeper Kamran Akmal and senior batsman Younis Khan are a part of the Rajasthan Royals which won the inaugural IPL season and was scheduled to feature in the Champions League Twenty20 event that was supposed to take place in India from Dec 3-10 but was postponed in the wake of the mayhem in Mumbai.

    Latif said these cricketers should tell their respective leagues that they cannot play for them till the time the political situation between the two countries normalise.

    Almost 200 people were killed in terrorist attacks in Mumbai. The Indian authorities raised the finger of suspicion against Pakistan, which has denied any involvement in the attacks. Latif said he hopes the two governments will resolve their differences for the betterment of the peoples on both sides of the border.

  21. #22 by khansahab on December 1, 2008 - 3:28 PM

    If Pak could tour India in ’99 so can they now’

    Karachi: Former PCB chief Shaharyar Khan feels if Pakistani cricketers could brave threats during their 1999 tour of India, Mahendra Singh Dhoni and his men can also do the same and come for the Test and ODI series here next year.
    “When we went to India in ’99 there were threats to us but the tour went ahead as planned and was a success and it helped reduce tensions between the two countries,” Shaharyar said.
    “The same thing happened in 2004 it was a ground breaking series in many ways and helped improve the overall scenario. Postponing or cancelling the (upcoming) series will not help the situation at all,” he added.
    Shaharyar, who was also the foreign secretary and Pakistan’s ambassador to New Delhi besides managing the team on its 1999 tour to India, said cricket is one of the most important binding forces between the two countries.
    “Cricket has in the past helped the two countries reduce their differences. It can again play a positive role that is why it is so important that India tour Pakistan as planned early next year,” he said in an interview.
    He condemned the terror attacks in Mumbai, saying such unfortunate incidents would affect the confidence building measures and dialogue between the two countries to some extent.
    “Cricket is big in both countries and gets lot of media play. I think both cricket boards must be prepared to work together to make the coming series possible,” he explained.
    India are scheduled to play three Tests and five ODIs during the tour, which is in serious doubt after the Mumbai mayhem.

  22. #23 by khansahab on December 1, 2008 - 4:06 PM

    Pakistan must play to defeat terrorism: Yousuf

    KARACHI: Senior Pakistan batsman Mohammad Yousuf, who has aligned with ‘rebel’ ICL, has urged the cricket
    authorities of India and Pakistan to do
    everything to save the game from becoming a casualty in the wake of deadly terrorist attack in Mumbai.

    Yousuf said cricket between the two nations would be the best answer to terrorism and urged the BCCI to send its team for next year’s tour to Pakistan.

    Yousuf along with many fellow players returned from India following the cancellation of ICL World Series due to the worst attack the financial capital of India had witnessed.

    Yousuf said that the Mumbai attack had definitely hurt cricket in the sub-continent and it was a ‘horrifying’ human tragedy.

    “But the fact is that if cricket activities are suspended in both countries it would only encourage these terrorists to increase their attacks,” the prolific batsman opined.

    Yousuf said he would like to see the Indian board send its team to Pakistan on schedule for the Test tour as sport has always brought people of the two countries together.

    “Cricket must be played in both countries because it is one sport which can help defeat terrorism and bind the people of the two countries,” he added.

    Former Pakistan captain Moin Khan said it was unfortunate that there was an escalation in tension between Pakistan and India after the Mumbai attack.

    “I think cricket will have to play its role in reducing these tensions. India must send its team to Pakistan so that things can return to normal as soon as possible,” he said.

    Moin said cancelling cricket series either in India or Pakistan would serve no purpose as both boards and governments needed to combine to combat terrorism.

    “These terrorists have to be given a message that they can’t discourage or disrupt relations between the two countries. Cricket has always played a big role in normalising ties and that time has come again,” he said.

    Opener Imran Nazir said all the players were shocked at what happened in Mumbai and were deeply disappointed they had to return home in such circumstances.

    Rana Naved, Mohammad Sami, Imran Farhat, Mohammad Khalid were among the other ICL players who returned home from India.

  23. #24 by khansahab on December 1, 2008 - 4:09 PM

    An indo-pak test match in Mumbai to show solidarity, says Akram

    Former Pakistan captain Wasim Akram has urged India not to break cricketing ties with Pakistan, suggesting that both countries play a Test match in Mumbai, to show solidarity after the recent terrorist attacks in the city.

    “Cricket is not on anyone’s mind at the moment, but after three to four days, both countries must take a positive step,” Akram told AFP. “I suggest Pakistan and India play a Test in Mumbai to give a clear message that we will not give in.

    His remarks come amid unconfirmed reports that the Indian government had denied its cricket team permission to tour Pakistan early next year ,following last week’s attacks. Tensions between the two countries have increased after allegations that the terrorists had Pakistani links, accusations Pakistan strongly denies.

    “India is like a second home for me, so whatever has happened there has hurt everyone in Pakistan, including me, “said Akram. “But if this hits our relations and cricket, it would mean that we have given in to terrorists.”

    Akram can draw on personal experience: he captained Pakistan on their tour of India in early 1999, despite threats from religious fundamentalists in India that they would disrupt the tour. Pakistan drew the Test series 1-1 and won the subsequent Pepsi Cup tri-series, also featuring Sri Lanka, thus ending a ten-year drought where neither country had toured the other for Tests. They also won the Asian Test Championship match in Calcutta by 46 runs on the tour.

    Though worried about the effect on the peace process between the two countries, Akram hoped the situation would improve. “Cricket means everything in the subcontinent. It has built bridges and has averted wars on several occasions. People love and worship cricket, so it would be a great loss if cricket is halted. I hope it isn’t,” he said.

    India’s tour schedule, from January 2009, was first put in doubt last month when the Indian government refused to grant permission to its junior hockey team to visit Pakistan due to security concerns. India did visit Pakistan in June-July this year for the Asia Cup, but concerns increased after the Champions Trophy, due to be held in September, was postponed following ongoing security concerns.

    Pakistan have suffered from a number of postponements this year because of security concerns and if India don’t come, it could leave Pakistan without a Test from December 2007 to June 2009, when they are scheduled to visit Sri Lanka.

  24. #25 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 1, 2008 - 4:41 PM

    khansahab

    I don’t think any cricket lover would like to hear the postponement or the cancellation of the Indian cricket team’s tour. We all want to see cricket and enjoy it.

    And, yes we will now see a lot of former players will come out suggesting the authorities to play cricket in India or in Pakistan to prove not only solidarity but also to send a message to the terrorists that they are not threatened by their ugly acts. Wasim Akram and Mohammad Yousuf’s statements are an example.

    Rashid Latif, speaks too much and too soon. There was no need for him to blab out. Those accusations are being made by the media and the Indian government has not yet given its official verdict, so there is no need for Rashid Latif to say what he has said. Besides, its not his job to become Zardari’s adviser he should focus on his job which is coaching the young cricketers at the academy rather than becoming a political adviser.

    Never before, we have seen peace rallies in Pakistan after a terrorist attack in India. After the Mumbai incident people in Pakistan are coming out on the streets showing their support and solidarity towards India / Pakistan relationship and condemning terrorism. It goes to show that the government and the majority of the people of Pakistan keen to have good relations with India and are condemning this shameful act by a handful of cowards.

    Therefore, together we must fight against this evil and defeat them.

  25. #26 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 1, 2008 - 11:31 PM

    I was trying to post this comment on the “Politics Page2” but, even that page has slowed down too much and, I am compelled to post it here. Besides, this page being the current thread is viewed and read more than the other pages.

    Here is some information which I want to share about the recent incident in Mumbai.

    India has now officially launched a formal protest by calling the Pakistani Ambassador to the foreign office and telling him that they have proof that the terrorists have Pakistani links. To which not only the Pakistan government has denied involvement and warned against letting “miscreants” inflame tensions in the region.

    The analysts have their version which is worth reading:

    By FIDA MARVAT
    Tuesday, 2 December 2008.
    http://WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM

    PESHAWAR, Pakistan — In 1988 Indian Navy and commandos took only 24 hours to storm Mamoon Abdul Quyum’s palace in the Maldives when it was taken over by rebels and eliminated the rebels within another 24 hours.

    But in Mumbai, it took India 60 hours to eliminate ten terrorists equipped only with KKs and grenades. The entire drama seems to be well scripted like Bollywood / Hollywood movies. On one side they blame ISI for planning, executing the whole episode and on the other hand they blame ISI for committing silly mistakes and leaving behind incriminating evidence to be picked up by the Indian intelligence so it could find easy links to Karachi/Pakistan.

    Some other false accusations of India include:

    1. Indians failed to detect movement of the alleged merchant ship from Karachi and then its off loading of passengers at high sea.

    2. These 10 daredevils traveled in rubber dinghies up to Bombay shores unnoticed. Was the Indian coastal defense system asleep?

    3. The terrorists waded through the marshes of Bombay coastline, reached the road network, hijacked police vehicles, divided themselves in three groups and then headed for their targets in the posh localities of Bombay, and EVERYTHING GOES UNNOTICED???

    4. Like precision guided missiles these terrorists reach their targets and take over heavily guarded two 5-star hotels, dodging the security system of the entire city of Bombay and the internal security system of these 5-star hotels and the Jewish center also.

    5. They fight it out with Indian commandos for 3 days and all but one is killed. The Indians claim that he is ISI sponsored. If we believe the Indian storyline, it defies logic. How can a professional spy agency like ISI commit the following mistakes:

    a) Sailing the terrorist off from Karachi. Why not Dubai, Chittagong or Eden for better deception?

    b) Credit cards of Pakistani origin in their pockets. Do the suicide bombers carry the IDs in their pockets?

    c) Their Pakistani Punjabi ascent. The first lesson given to intelligence operators is to adapt to local environments. If such an operation was planned by Pakistan and ISI, the operatives would have known that they would have to communicate/ negotiate with the hostages and others and hence would have concealed this giveaway sign.

    I leave to the readers to decide if Indian lies are white or black.

    I also leave to you to decide whether this is a RAW/Mossad staged drama or that of Lashkar-e-Tayyeba and ISI?

    And how much credible are CNN and BBC anyway?

  26. #27 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 1, 2008 - 11:55 PM

    Another important point that has been raised by the same group of analysts which is also worth reading, see below:

    The purpose of this article is not to create any hatred but, it will give the readers another version which is possible and for whatever reasons the Indian media is not publishing it.

    Are Indian N-Assets Safe?

    Two of the crown jewels of the Indian nuclear program and a number of other sites that possibly house Indian nuclear material are a stone throw’s away from Mumbai, where ten young me infiltrated the city, patrolled its streets, killed India’s top anti – terrorism official, and faced off hundreds of India’s elite soldiers for 60 hours. The question is: How safe are India’s n-assets?

    By Akhtar Jamal
    Monday, 1 December 2008.
    http://WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM

    ISLAMABAD – If one is to believe the Indian claim that ten young militants engaged more than 3000 of India’s top commandoes, intelligence and police officials for 60 hours and killed 200 people in Mumbai city, then we must seriously be worried about the safety of India’s nuclear arsenal, radioactive material, and nuclear power plants.

    Two prominent experts on Pakistan and India today expressed their fear that if ten militants in their early twenties can hold a city of 15 million people, which houses a number of sensitive nuclear and radio-active plants, then how safe are India’s nukes.

    Speaking to TVOneNews program, ‘Siyasat aur Pakistan’, strategic experts Zaid Hamid and Ahmed Quraishi also warned that Hindu hawks may try to grab India’s nukes.

    According to reports, two of India’s most important nuclear installations are located near Mumbai. Tarapur’s two 160 MW nuclear plants are already functioning near Trombay while two more 500 MW PHWRs power plants are under construction near Mumbay itself. These two plants are designed to work as fuel fabrication facilities and are not safeguarded under the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) nor effectively protected.

    India’s Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) and a number of other nuclear plants and uranium conversion facilities (UF6) are also not part of IAEA safeguards. A fuel fabrication facility is also not far from the city and is considered unsafe by most accounts.

    What surprised India experts is the fact that militants reportedly entered the city on boats crossing the eyes of the Indian navy and marines and carried not only heavy arms but also tens of kilograms of military- standard RDX explosives.

    According to an article published Monday in the Washington Post, “In just minutes, Mumbai was under seige” by young gunmen.

    After landing, the gunmen fanned out across the city, most likely in groups of two or three. Within half an hour, they had hit about five sites: the city’s main rail station, a Jewish center at the Nariman House, the Leopold Cafe, and the Oberoi and Taj hotels.

    Washington Post quoted a photographer for the Mumbai Mirror newspaper, Sebastian D’Souza, as saying that, “There were armed policemen hiding all around the station, but none of them did anything,” D’Souza told reporters afterward. “At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, ‘Shoot them! They’re sitting ducks,’ but they just didn’t shoot back.”

    Mr. Jamal can be reached at: pakpress@yahoo.com

  27. #28 by Varun Suri on December 2, 2008 - 1:21 AM

    Javed@ 26

    It is good that you have tried to quote Ahmed Quraishi and explain your views about the whole scenario and having gone through the same i would try to present my views on your comments and the whole scenario by first quoting 2 articles by a certain Arwind Swami.

    More details about him can be found at the following Website:- http://www.usip.org/specialists/bios/archives/swami.html

    1. Mumbai massacre story unfolds in terrorist’s interrogation

    MUMBAI: For the past week, newspaper readers across the world gazed at photographs of the dark young man who, sack slung over his shoulder, was caught on closed-circuit camera minutes before he opened fire at commuters at a busy Mumbai railway station.

    Based on interviews with key officers involved in the investigation and on the interrogation records of the terrorist, The Hindu has been able to assemble key parts of the story behind the face.

    Mohammad Ajmal Amir Iman (wrongly identified earlier as Kamaal and Kasav) began his journey to Mumbai on September 15, 2008. He was part of a group of ten men who had spent months training in marine combat and navigation skills in Pakistan-administered Kashmir and Punjab.

    Lashkar military commander Zaki-ur-Rahman Lakhvi, Iman has told investigators, showed them detailed maps of south Mumbai, and films of the targets they had been tasked to hit. Iman and his partner ‘Abu Umar’ — whose name, he learned, was in fact Mohammad Ismail — were tasked with attacking the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus.

    Iman and the other terrorists were set to leave for Mumbai on September 27.

    For reasons he claims to be unaware of, they were ordered to hold back. Late on November 22, Lakhvi finally gave the team a heads-up. At 4:15 a.m. on November 23, Iman and Ismail rowed out to sea along with four other groups: men Iman knew as Abu Akasha and Abu Umar; ‘Bada’ [Big] Abdul Rehman and Abu Ali; ‘Chhota’ [small] Abdul Rehman and Afadullah; Shoaib and Umar.

    Each man was equipped with a Kalashnikov rifle and 200 rounds of ammunition and grenades. The group also had at least one state-of-the art Garmin global positioning system set, and several mobile phones fitted with SIM cards, which have now been determined to have been purchased in Kolkata and New Delhi. Three men had larger bags, packed with five timer-controlled Improvised Explosive Devices.

    Near Indian coastal waters, the men hijacked a fishing boat. On reaching Mumbai, they rowed the last few nautical miles to Budhwar Park in an inflatable dinghy. From Budhwar Park, they travelled on to their targets by hailing taxis. Iman and Ismail reached CST as planned, and opened fire on the assembled commuters. While Ismail was killed when policemen at the site returned fire, braving grenades thrown at them, Iman was injured and is now in the Mumbai hospital.

    Mumbai police officials were able to defuse two of the IEDs planted at the Taj Mahal hotel and a third at the Oberoi hotel, even as fighting broke out. This police action saved dozens of lives. However, two bombs went off in taxis used by the group, possibly after being abandoned in the vehicles.

    Iman has told interrogators that right through the fighting, the Lashkar headquarters remained in touch with the group, calling their phones through a voice-over-internet service. In all likelihood, Indian investigators were able to intercept these calls, which would then form part of a compelling body of evidence to corroborate Iman’s account. In addition, Mumbai police sources said, investigators have succeeded in reconstructing the group’s journey through the Garmin GPS set that has been seized.

    Source:- The Hindu

    end of the Post 1, Continued in the next post

  28. #29 by Varun Suri on December 2, 2008 - 1:28 AM

    ….Continued from previous

    Now I quote another article by the same author, it might be long so take a break in between!!

    2.A journey into the Lashkar

    Iman’s story shows it preys on the most vulnerable poor

    MUMBAI: It is improbable that Mohammad Ajmal Amir Iman’s family has seen the photograph that has made his face known across the world.

    Hours before he began firing at commuters waiting at Mumbai’s Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST) last week, Iman, one of ten Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists, was caught on closed-circuit camera.

    After he and his partner, Mohammad Ismail, had killed 55 commuters at CST and three senior police officers, including Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Chief Hemant Karkare, Iman was injured and captured — and the story he has since been telling Mumbai police investigators casts new light on how the feared terror group preys on the most vulnerable in Pakistani society to further its agenda of hate.

    The man in the photo was born on July 13, 1987 at Faridkot village in Dipalpur tehsil of Okara district in Pakistan’s Punjab province. His family belongs to the underprivileged Qasai caste. His father, Mohammad Amir Iman, runs a dahi-puri snack cart. His mother, Noori Tai, is a homemaker.

    Iman is the third of the family’s five children. His 25-year-old brother, Afzal, lives near the Yadgar Minar in Lahore. His sister, Rukaiyya Husain, 22, is married locally. Iman’s younger siblings, 14-year-old Suraiyya and 11-year-old Munir, live at home.

    Iman’s desperately poor family could not afford to keep their second son, an indifferent student, at the Government Primary School in Faridkot past the fourth grade. He was pulled out of school in 2000, at the age of 13, and went to live with his older brother in Lahore. Afzal, who lives in a tenement near the Yadgar Minar in Lahore, eked out a living on a labourer’s wages, and could barely afford to look after his brother. For the next several years, Iman shuttled between the homes of his brother and parents.

    Adrift

    After a row with his parents in 2005, Iman left home, determined never to return. No longer welcome in Afzal’s home, he stayed at the shrine of the saint Syed Ali Hajveri until he could pick up some work. He began working as a labourer and by 2007 his work brought in Rs. 200 a day. Iman, however, found the work degrading. He soon began spending time with small-time criminals in Lahore. Along with a friend, a one-time Attock resident named Muzaffar Lal Khan, Iman decided to launch a new career in armed robbery.

    On Bakr Eid day in 2007, Iman has told the Mumbai Police, the two men made their way to the Raja bazaar in Rawalpindi, hoping to purchase weapons. In the market, they saw activists for the Jamaat-ud-Dawa — the parent political organisation of the Lashkar-e-Taiba — handing out pamphlets and posters about the organisation and its activities. After a discussion lasting a few minutes, Iman claims, both men decided to join — not because of their Islamist convictions but in the hope that the jihad training they would receive would further their future life in crime.

    A life in Lashkar

    But at the Lashkar’s base camp, Markaz Taiba, Iman’s world view began to change. Films on India’s purported atrocities in Kashmir, and fiery lectures by preachers, including Lashkar chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, led him to believe that the Lashkar’s cause — the greater glory of Islam, as the organisation presented it — was worth giving his life to. It is possible, an official involved in the interrogation suggested, that the atmosphere of the camp gave him the sense of family he had lacked for much of his life.

    When he returned home for a two-month break after his indoctrination at the Lashkar base camp, he found a respectability within his community and family that had eluded him most of his life. Where Iman had earlier been seen as a burden, he was now self-sufficient — and bore the halo of religious piety.

    Later that year, Iman was chosen for the Lashkar’s basic combat course, the Daura Aam. He performed well and was among a small group of 32 men selected to undergo advanced training at a camp near Manshera, a course the organisation calls the Daura Khaas. Finally, he was among an even smaller group selected for specialised marine commando and navigation training given to the fidayeen unit selected to target Mumbai.

    According to Iman, Lashkar military commander Zaki-ur-Rahman Lakhvi promised that his family would be rewarded with Rs. 1.5 lakh for his sacrifice.

    In my next post i will try to reply to some of the questions you raised in your post.

  29. #30 by Varun Suri on December 2, 2008 - 2:03 AM

    Javed@ 26

    You wrote:

    Some other false accusations of India include:
    1. Indians failed to detect movement of the alleged merchant ship from Karachi and then its off loading of passengers at high sea.2. These 10 daredevils traveled in rubber dinghies up to Bombay shores unnoticed. Was the Indian coastal defense system asleep?

    Well, the answer to this is simply Yes they failed to detect or even if someone detected/interrogated the intial merchant ship they were too careless in their approach or simply there was a communication failure I also read that they were actually stopped in between but two of them managed to get hold of some fake Gujarati ID’s.

    3. The terrorists waded through the marshes of Bombay coastline, reached the road network, hijacked police vehicles, divided themselves in three groups and then headed for their targets in the posh localities of Bombay, and EVERYTHING GOES UNNOTICED???

    What do you mean by un-noticed?Only their initial movement in the water went un-noticed. The movement they docked on the coast of bombay they were spotted but obviosly they were not displaying their AK-47’s and Grenades at that time. Within minutes they dispersed into different teams one of them hijacked only ONE Police Jeep and the other went in normal Taxis concealing their identity and ammunition. Again they did not have only as much ammunation as one can fit in a rugsack but they also had stored them through possible local sources/helpers in the Hotel from few days before.

    4. Like precision guided missiles these terrorists reach their targets and take over heavily guarded two 5-star hotels, dodging the security system of the entire city of Bombay and the internal security system of these 5-star hotels and the Jewish center also.

    What Security system are you referring to? The Metal Detectors at the Hotel? and What is the Security System of Bombay that you are talking about? There is absolutely no Security System of any kind to prevent such an attack in India.Ratan Tata himself in his interview said that they were severly lacking in Security.

    5. They fight it out with Indian commandos for 3 days and all but one is killed. The Indians claim that he is ISI sponsored. If we believe the Indian storyline, it defies logic. How can a professional spy agency like ISI commit the following mistakes:

    On the basis of current evidence no body can prove any role of ISI as the only thing we know is that they were trained at LeT camps now whether someone within ISI knew that or sympathises with it is a different issue altogether.

    a) Sailing the terrorist off from Karachi. Why not Dubai, Chittagong or Eden for better deception?

    Well It has happened in the past they have come from all directions even Nepal and Why not Karachi for a change? It is not that Indian Intelligence is only focussed on are very good at spying at Pakistani Cities.

    b) Credit cards of Pakistani origin in their pockets. Do the suicide bombers carry the IDs in their pockets?

    Again the veracity of this cannot be proven and i think they must be referring to any sort of documentation ,and not strictly some government issued ID’s , which could relate them to Pakistan.

    c) Their Pakistani Punjabi ascent. The first lesson given to intelligence operators is to adapt to local environments. If such an operation was planned by Pakistan and ISI, the operatives would have known that they would have to communicate/ negotiate with the hostages and others and hence would have concealed this giveaway sign.

    Well, If you read one of the papers they did use some pure Hindi words to conceal their identity one of the Indian survivors couldn’t understand in which language they were talking in so to a certain extent they were quite successful in concealing their identities, Also you mentioned earlier that the only guy photographed was shown wearing a red string around his wrists then was that not a way to conceal his real identity? (Mohammad Ajmal Amir Iman)

    To conclude the notion that This whole thing is a Drama by RAW and just because one Rabbi is dead also supported by Mossad is utter non-sense. No sensible person in India is saying that Zardari’s involved but then how much is in Zaradri’s control? When already Terrorists are causing havoc in Pakistan and his own life is in danger all the time. I quote these lines from a fellow blogger which aptly describes the Indian viewpoint:

    “India’s point is not that the Pakistan government planned the current attack. Perhaps they didnt and in any case such a claim would be impossible to prove.The contention is that
    1) Pakistani territory was used to plan and execute the attack and
    2) that sections inside the administration, perhaps acting in their own capacity,or actors whose unmolested presence in Pakistan is proof positive of tacit official support”

    How about the view-point that in times of global recession, certain elements within Pakistan ( Army or Politicians) want to show to the world that :-

    1.Foreigners are as safe in India as they are in Pakistan

    2.Do not invest in India.

  30. #31 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 2, 2008 - 3:14 AM

    Varun

    I will get back to you later because its late and I am too tired after the day’s work. It seems you are taking it out on me personally by saying:

    “What do you mean by un-noticed?
    What Security system are you referring to?”

    As if I have written those comments, I have very clearly mentioned that I am copy pasting it from Ahmad Quraishi’s website.

    I understand that emotions are very high and hot at the moment and its better to discuss this when the dust settles down and when its a bit cool out there.

  31. #32 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 2, 2008 - 3:20 AM

    Sab Kuch Lutaa Kay Hosh May Aye Tou Kya Kiya?

    Bush regrets Iraqi WMD failure

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7759908.stm

    Outgoing US President George Bush has said his biggest regret is the failure of intelligence over Iraqi weapons.

    In a wide-ranging TV interview, he declined to say whether he would have decided to invade Iraq if he had known it had no weapons of mass destruction.

    Asked about what he regarded as his greatest achievement, Mr Bush said that his administration had fought a war against “ideological thugs”.

    Mr Bush will hand over to President-elect Barack Obama on 20 January.

    The outgoing president told ABC television: “The biggest regret of all the presidency has to have been the intelligence failure in Iraq.”

    He added: “I wish the intelligence had been different.”

    Asked what his greatest accomplishment was, Mr Bush replied: “I keep recognising we’re in a war against ideological thugs and keeping America safe.”

    He also defended his actions over the recent economic crises.

    “When the history of this period is written, people will realise a lot of the decisions that were made on Wall Street took place over a decade or so,” he told ABC.

    Mr Bush – whose approval ratings are at an historic low – said he was happy for history to be his judge.

    “I will leave the presidency with my head held high,” he said.

    After reading the bottom line of this news, everyone is laughing out loudly like Santa HAHAHAHAHAHAHA and HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

  32. #33 by Varun Suri on December 2, 2008 - 9:58 AM

    Javed@31,

    I am sorry for giving you the impression that i am getting personal, that is certainly not the case. Actually I did not read the exact article by FIDA MARVAT which you have quoted and which is titled “5 Points That Destroy India’s Latest Fairytale”. I only read the recent 2 Articles.

    Now that you have quoted this article so please skim through my views and replace “You” by “The Author” and maybe it will make more sense.

    @27

    “Two prominent experts on Pakistan and India today expressed their fear that if ten militants in their early twenties can hold a city of 15 million people, which houses a number of sensitive nuclear and radio-active plants, then how safe are India’s nukes.”

    As usual, exaggeration of the whole Drama, Anyone who has seen the map of Bombay would instantly realise that this attack was primarily focussed on the South of Bombay, almost right at the tip end of it and that may not be mre than 20% of the whole area of Bombay. It is the biggest City in India area-wise. The terrorists had taken refuge in the two big hotels and the only reason why this Drama continued for so long was the inability and the unpreparedness of the Indian Security Forces to first control the situation and then bring the whole drama to a quick end. The city of Bombay does not house any Nuclear or Radio-Active plants, they are at a considerable distance from the main city. The Author himself does not have any clear idea on this as first he says they are ‘in’ Bombay and then he says they are “near” Bombay in Trombay and Tarapur.

    My sincere request to the Author is to worry more about the Pakistani Nukes getting into the hands of the Evil Jehadists who are not even friends of Pakistanis and try to curb their over-enthusiasm on the so called threat to the Pakistan’s existence from the “Hindu-Hawks”.

    Washington Post quoted a photographer for the Mumbai Mirror newspaper, Sebastian D’Souza, as saying that, “There were armed policemen hiding all around the station, but none of them did anything,” D’Souza told reporters afterward. “At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, ‘Shoot them! They’re sitting ducks,’ but they just didn’t shoot back.”

    This paragraph should give you an impression about how effective or good the so called “Indian Security” or as Fida Marvat puts it “Security System of entire city of Bombay”. On one hand people read such things and then thy get astonished when the Coast Guards fail to intercept the Merchant Ship or the Dinghy’s in which they came On-shore of Bombay.Why is it a surprise that this event was also made possible due to the massive failure of Indian Intelligence or RAW for that matter??

    As usual, I would like to remind other readers/commentators that the purpose of all this exercise is to find the TRUTH and nothing else. No Personal battles here and No Ego issues.

    If anyone felt offended by what i’ve said or written, Pleae feel free to bring it to my attention!

  33. #34 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 10:43 AM

    India looks for supernatural success
    By Phil Hazlewood
    Tuesday, 02 Dec, 2008

    MUMBAI: With a string of impressive on-field performances, including victory in the 2007 Twenty20 World Cup, India have risen to become one of the world’s leading limited-overs sides.
    But their recent success, first in Australia earlier this year and at home against England before last week’s terror attacks led to the cancellation of the remainder of the one-day series, may not just be down to their skills with the bat and ball.
    The figures may also be tilted in their favour.
    Players including captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni and in-form batsman Yuvraj Singh have turned to a leading Indian numerologist to determine which squad numbers they should wear on their blue uniforms.
    In numerology, numbers are keys to predicting and explaining human behaviour. Each number is assigned a characteristic of certain cosmic powers and linked to planets. Birth dates are also considered auspicious.
    Sanjay B. Jumaani, a Mumbai-based numerologist, said about half a dozen members of the team have come to him to help get a psychological edge over the opposition.
    ‘In cricket, fortune is a very important aspect, from a ball that can take a wicket or be sent to the other side of the field. That can turn the fate of the game,’ he told AFP by telephone.
    Jumaani, a newspaper columnist who is also consulted by leading Bollywood stars, said the trend was set by former India captain Sourav Ganguly and spread through the team by word of mouth as his form improved.
    Among those playing the numbers game is Dhoni, born on the seventh day of the seventh month of 1981. He wears squad number seven – symbolic of dynamism and communication.
    Left-hander Yuvraj, who smashed England bowler Stuart Broad for six sixes in an over in the Twenty20 World Cup in South Africa, was born on the 12th day of the 12th month in 1981.
    He wears 12. One plus two adds up to three, representing not only strong Jupiter and Singh’s zodiac sign, Sagittarius, but also ambition and success.
    Opener Gautam Gambhir, born on October 14, 1981, is a five in numerology, which governs his zodiac sign of Libra, and symbolises dynamism. His squad number is five.
    Middle-order batsman Rohit Sharma wears 45, adding up to nine – one of his three lucky numbers. Nine also represents Mars, the planet of energy and aggression.
    All-rounder Irfan Pathan was advised on his squad number (63) for the same reason.
    Seamer Zaheer Khan is a seven in numerology as he was born on the seventh day of October, 1978. His squad number, 34, adds up to seven.
    And young seamer Ishant Sharma was told to choose 29, the first two numbers of his birth date.
    Yet aggressive opener Virender Sehwag dispensed with his squad number, 44, altogether as it was ‘pulling him down,’ said Jumaani. He has since recovered his form.
    ‘He’s the only player in the world who does not wear any number,’ said Jumaani.
    Sehwag explained: ‘I do not believe in astrology but my family members do. Many people used to pester me and my family to use different numbers.’
    ‘I was so fed up that I decided not to take their advice. We play Test matches without numbers and hence I do not use any number on my T-shirt,’ he said.
    Cricketers, like most sportsmen and women, are often a superstitious bunch, whether it is keeping a red handkerchief in their pocket, putting a particular pad or boot on first or going through rituals at the crease.
    Jumaani, who believes India’s victory over arch-rivals Pakistan in the Twenty20 World final last year, was through a fortuitous combination of numbers three, six and nine, admits numerology on its own is not enough.
    ‘I always believe success is a mixture of fortune and hard work. It (numerology) puts you in a positive frame of mind. Psychology plays an important role but so do the vibrations,’ he explained.
    ‘Once you are in a positive frame of mind, half the battle is won.’

  34. #35 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 1:28 PM

    PCB’s plan to produce ‘educated’ cricketers

    Aware of the fact that players with humble backgrounds often struggle with their fame and success, the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) will soon launch an ambitious programme aimed at providing specialised coaching and higher education opportunities to the young players at the same time.

    There has been a feeling that many of the controversies and scandals that have happened in Pakistan cricket is mainly because many of the players come from humble backgrounds with no proper specialised education or the necessary grooming to adjust properly to the fame, glamour and money that follow their success.

    Many of the players who have played for Pakistan in the last decade have come from hamlets in Punjab or North West Frontier Province with few having formal education from government schools.

    But now the board is starting a programme under which it hopes to have a pool of around 500 young players ready after five years having got formal cricket coaching as well as Cambridge “O” level education.

    “Even if we can scout out half a dozen players from this pool in the next five years we would have done our service to cricket and also provided an opportunity to these youngsters from different backgrounds to have good education with the option of going on to complete their education and become useful citizens,” PCB CEO Shafqat Naghmi said.

    Under the scheme which will be launched by the board shortly, the coaches of the board will pick 10 players in the under-12 age group from each of the 12 regions affiliated with the PCB.

    “They will be picked on the basis of their cricketing talent and then we will along with cricket coaching also send them to branches of a leading private school we have entered into a understanding with,” Naghmi said.

    “After we finish selecting these players we have an agreement with the school which has branches all over the country and then we give them education for the next five years until they do their ‘O’ levels and at the same time we provide cricket coaching for them,” he said.

    “And at the end of the five year period we have about 550 boys always under the program and out of those 550 if we can get lets say only 5 or six boys good for cricket we would have met our target,” he added.

    In the past Pakistan board has employed a sports psychologist with the national team in a bid to improve the mental strength and focus of the players but because many of them don’t have formal education or not fluent in English the experiment didn’t work as the communication levels were not smooth.

    Faisal Mamsa, a psychologist referring to the scandals involving Pakistani cricketers, said they required formal grooming and education with their cricket coaching to prepare them to become useful citizens and handle the glamour, glitz, adulation and wealth that come with fame.

    “Most of them are incapable of adjusting to the new environment and face problems,” he said.

    Mudassar Nazar, the former Test opener who now heads the national cricket academy, was confident the new programme would give Pakistan cricket a new breed of educated and well groomed players.

    “We are planning ahead and looking at the next generation of cricketers,” he added.

  35. #36 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 1:55 PM

    Terrorists have no religion: Aamir Khan

    MUMBAI: Bollywood star Aamir Khan wrote on his blog on Friday that politicians may try to use the Mumbai terror attack to their own advantage and
    stressed that terrorists have no religion. “I dread to think of how various political parties are now going to try and use this tragedy to further their political careers. At least now they should learn to not divide people and instead become responsible leaders,” wrote Aamir on his blog.
    “When will these politicians realise and admit that terrorists have no religion. Terrorists are not Hindu or Muslim or Christian. They are not people of religion or god. They are people who have gone totally sick in their head and have to be dealt with in that manner,” he added. Aamir went on to write about how the tragedy that struck the financial capital Wednesday night and spilled over into Friday has exposed how “illequipped we are as a society as far as proper leaders go” . “We desperately need young, dynamic, honest, intelligent and upright leaders, who actually care for the country,” he opined.

    The actor has been actively keeping a tab on the proceedings of the rescue operations in the city through television. He shared that it was shocking and heart breaking for him to see various locations there turned into a war zone.
    “At this moment I pray that the brave officers of the Mumbai Police, the Indian Army, Navy, the NSG and the various other security forces dealing with the situation are able to end this crisis as soon as possible,” Aamir wrote.
    Aamir extended his heartfelt condolences to the families of those killed and of those who had been held hostage since Wednesday night.

    He made a special mention of the “brave officers of the Mumbai Police” who lost their lives leading from the front to take on the terrorists. He also wrote about Anti Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare, who was one among the three top officials who laid down their lives while fighting terror. The actor-turned-filmmaker has urged countrymen to have faith and signed off with ‘Jai Hind’.

  36. #37 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 2:00 PM

    Muslim graveyard refuses to bury terrorists in Mumbai

    A Muslim graveyard in the heart of Mumbai has broken with Islamic tradition and refused to bury the bodies of nine terrorists who were killed during the attack on India’s financial capital.

    The influential Muslim Jama Masjid Trust, which runs the 7.5-acre Badakabrastan graveyard, said it would not bury the gunmen because they were not true followers of Islam.

    Hanif Nalkhande, a spokesman for the trust, said: “People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim. Islam does not permit this sort of barbaric crime.”

    At least ten gunmen killed nearly 200 people in a series of coordinated attacks that began on Wednesday evening and swept south Mumbai. The strikes targeted two luxury hotels, the city’s main train station, a hospital and a Jewish centre.

    During the attacks one militant said that the gunmen had been sent to avenge the abuses committed against Muslims in Indian-controlled Kashmir.

    Over three days, the Indian security forces killed nine terrorists and captured a tenth. The bodies of the nine dead gunmen now lie in a morgue awaiting last rites. The sole surviving militant – Azam Amir Kasab, 21, a Pakistani national – is being questioned by police.

    According to leaked details of the interrogation, he said that he and his fellow the terrorists were indoctrinated by being shown images of “atrocities on Muslims in India”.

    Unclaimed bodies thought to be Muslim are traditionally given to the nearest Islamic graveyard for burial after three days but that now looks impossible in Mumbai.

    There are seven other Muslim graveyards in Mumbai, but the Jama Masjid’s influence means none of the others are likely to accept the bodies.

    India has a history of bloody clashes between its minority Muslim community and Hindus, who account for aabout 80 per cent of the population. Police are now unsure what to do with the bodies, as officers do not believe anyone will claim the gunmen’s corpses.

    Jain Sirmukadam, a senior police inspector, said: “The gunmen must be buried because we are bound to see that their last rites are performed according to the religion they follow. We have heard the trust’s decision. We are considering what to do now.”

    Mr Nalkhande from the trust said that several Islamic scholars had backed the body’s decision.

    However, one Islamic scholar, Maulauna Zubair Ahmed, said that even terrorists must be given a proper burial under Sharia – or Islamic – law. “As per the Sharia, the trust cannot say no,” he said. “The Sharia says whether a Muslim is a drunkard, rapist, criminal, you must offer him a place for burial.”

  37. #38 by Awas on December 2, 2008 - 2:04 PM

    khansahab

    So far this is the only good piece coming out of this new Butt management that shows some far sight and good thinking.

    In the old days when education was less common our cricketers were more educated and suave, than now. Right from the likes of Abdul Hafeez Kardar to many more such as Haneef Mohammed and his brothers, Asif Iqbal, Majid Khan, Ramiz and Wasim Rajas, Imran and many more even till Waqar and Wasim, the proportion of educated players was much higher than now.

    There is no doubt the likes of M Asif got dazzled with fame and fortune and strayed because of his upbringing and brought shame to the nation. M Yousuf would have behaved differently too had he had the education. Even Religious education on its own didn’t help him.

    So, lets hope this idea doesn’t become ‘Educating Rita’ and instead works.

  38. #39 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 2:05 PM

    80 out of the 172 lives killed in Mumbai belonged to Muslims.

    This statement was made by the honourable Rajiv Shukla, a senior BCCI official.

    The Western media has tried its best to hide this fact. Shame on the Western media!

    I am reminded of this headline I read in a major UK newspaper following this Mumbai atrocity: “Islamists hunt Britons in Mumbai”.

    What a farce seriously!

  39. #40 by Awas on December 2, 2008 - 2:08 PM

    And who said media here is not biased!!!

  40. #41 by Wasim on December 2, 2008 - 2:11 PM

    Why Indian government is not publishing the pictures of all the dead terrorists,I read in the “Hindu” today that they sent the bodies of 10 dead terrorists to a muslim cemetery which declined to accept them.
    Wasn’t the number of terrorists according to different reports between 22-28 what happened to the remaining bodies?

    If some of the bodies got mutilated even then I’m sure that both Taj and Oberoi must have cameras installed in the lobby and also the railway station,by now the Indian authorities must have pictures of all the terrorists.

    Why so far the Indian Government hasn’t released the exact number of attackers? Why nobody is talking about the rest?

    If all of them were from Pakistan and Muslims why were the rest of the bodies not sent to a Muslim cemetery? The whole focus is on Amir Jamal whose name is being changed everyday,Why is there a confusion?

    @ Varun

    The distance between Karachi and Gujrat is 500 miles,how did these guys managed to travel such a distance without getting intercepted by Indian Navy and that too when Indian intelligence supposedly had an advance information about the attacks.

    If they traveled most part on a merchant ship how did they hijacked the Indian boat in the middle of the ocean, every high sea boat has a wireless system on it, why the captain of the boat didn’t used the wireless set when he saw that he was under attack.

    Why the attackers didn’t killed the captain in the middle of the sea and dumped his body in the sea,why they beheaded him on the shore?

    The coastal marsh lands of Mumbai are heavily patrolled by coast guards why the boat wasn’t intercepted?

    Some of the villagers reportedly informed the police about suspicious people landing on the shores of Mumbai,Why no action was taken?

    It is interesting to note that since Dawn published that report about Faridkot his name has been changed once again .If he gave away his identity then why his name is being continuously changed, and if he lied initially about his name then what is the proof that he didn’t lied about the identity of other attackers his whole story should have come under suspicion.

    If he came a few months ago to India as a student why his last travel record is not being checked? and why it is not being reported as to which country he came from back then?

    The solution is simple,the pictures of all the terrorists should be published in the newspapers both in India and in Pakistan a substantial reward should be announced for anyone who will give a positive lead on the true identity of these terrorists.
    If they are from Pakistan (which is highly unlikely) then Pakistan Government should further investigate the matter and should crackdown on those behind these attacks, and if they turn out to be local Indians then the Indian government should apologize to Pakistan.

  41. #42 by Varun Suri on December 2, 2008 - 5:23 PM

    Sensible Journalism at its best! I have struggled to come across even one Indian News Website which contains comments tat were made by people like below when in dealing with the recent ‘Drama’.
    Dawn is certainly one of the most “No Bias, No Bull” newspapers in South-Asia.

    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm By Irfan Husain

    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/jawed/jawed.htm By Jawed Naqvi

    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/kamran/kamran.htm By Kamran Shafi

    http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/02/op.htm By Dr Tariq Rahman

  42. #43 by Varun Suri on December 2, 2008 - 6:45 PM

    LAND OF MAHATMAS

    Sitting in Taj

    I order,

    “One large Spirit of Mumbai, please”

    “Shaken or stirred”

    Not yet shaken, bit stirred.

    Moshe lost his mom,

    his pop.

    And two Patils,

    their jobs.

    183 lives.

    70 hours live.

    Well done, Arnav,

    Well done Pranav.

    Candles, flowers,

    banners, tears.

    Solidarity of a

    billion cowards.

    Ye Ganpat,

    Chal daroo laa.

    I want to forget

    and forgive.

  43. #44 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 2, 2008 - 7:36 PM

    You guys have written so much and quoted so many links from various sources, whatever it is; “Dil nahee maanta kay Pakistan aisay kerayga India kay khilaaf, wo bhee innocent logon per firing & dahshat-gardi(terrorism)?” No way.

  44. #45 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 8:06 PM

    Musharraf blames Pakistan government

    Former President Pervez Musharraf has blamed Pakistan’s current administration for the tensions in ties with India in the wake of the Mumbai terror attacks, saying it should have made it clear how strong it is about fighting terrorism.

    “Well, you know if you don’t fight terror and make sure everybody knows how strong you feel about it, you may have problems with other countries like America. And yes — now the situation with India,” the former military ruler said in an interview in London, where he is on a private visit.

    Asked if the tension between India and Pakistan would not have occurred if the current Pakistani administration had made it clear how strong it is about fighting terrorism, Musharraf told interviewer Daphne Barak: “You said it.”

    He said the situation with India had become “very complicated” because of the government’s stance. “This is what terror is all about. By now — it has become a very complicated situation,” he remarked.

    Musharraf said the “kind of violence” now witnessed in Pakistan had “never happened during my time”.

    He said, “I made (up) my mind early on that I was going with America against terrorism. I have done anything in my power to block terrorists and fundamentalists.

    “There is only one way to deal with terrorists — to fight them,” said Musharraf, who quit in August to avoid impeachment by the Pakistan People’s Party-led government.

    Musharraf said Pakistan is his home and he would not leave it even though he may face threats to his life there, the interview that appeared in The News, said.

    “I would not leave Pakistan. It is my home. Am I safe there completely? Of course not. If there are risks but it is not new for me to live with risk. The army is protecting me. But of course – everything is possible,” Musharraf said. Pakistan is in a “very bad shape”, he said. “I brought foreign investments. I built roads. Nobody invests there anymore.”

    When the interviewer pointed out that he was first Pakistani ruler who had not been executed, jailed or exiled, Musharraf said even the interviewer was getting emails “from people who would like to have me back”.

    Musharraf said he did not miss the “good old days” when he was in power. “I have found time to spend with my family and friends. But I do care about Pakistan. It is obvious that I keep watching what is going on,” he said.

    Musharraf said he intended to stay on in Pakistan and write another book and “go on the lecture circuits”.

    Though Musharraf’s son Bilal is in California, he said he wanted to stay on in Pakistan as he has a daughter who lives in Karachi. “She organises musical events. Pakistan is my country,” he said, adding that he would continue to live in Rawalpindi till his house in Islamabad is completed.

    Musharraf also said he had just finished reading his own autobiography In the Line of Fire because he “needed to reflect”.

    Asked if he had started writing his next book, he said: “Not yet. The whole situation in Pakistan got me and others in a state of shock.”

  45. #46 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 8:10 PM

    JIYE MUSHARRAF!

    MUSHARRAF AUR IMRAN KHAN BHAI BHAI!

  46. #47 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 8:16 PM

    Sohail Tanvir blames Indian media for anti-Pakistan hysteria

    Sohail Tanvir Tuesday recounted the immediate aftermath of terrorist attacks in Mumbai (India).

    Sohail was staying at the Taj Mahal hotel which was stormed by the terrorists.

    “We were terribly terrified when the terrorists attacked the hotel, as were all the other passengers”, he said on his return from Mumbai. “Everybody was panicked and looking to get out of the hotel as soon as possible”, he said.

    Sohail and wicketkeeper Kamran Akmal were staying at the hotel as they were to take part in the Indian Premier League (IPL) Twenty20 cricket competition.

    He said the Indian media started to malign Pakistan soon after the attack, when nobody had as yet claimed responsibility for the incident. “This shows Indian media’s biased attitude”.

    Sohail Tanvir however urged the two countries to maintain sporting relations between them. “Sports help bring the people closer and promote understanding between them”.

    To a question, he said the improvement in political relations would help facilitate ties in sporting and other fields of life.

  47. #48 by Varun Suri on December 2, 2008 - 8:30 PM

    Omer@52..LOL, Of all the possible people, You sure are going to get Expert Advice on Terrorism in Indian Sub-Continent by a Chinese!!!

    50@ As i have quoted DAWN and HINDU, in my view they are the only 2 reliable papers from the Sub-Continent. At this point I would like to clarify the Misnomer “The Hindu”. Please do not go by the name of this Newspaper, it is one of the oldest and still has Leftist tendencies to it but as far as Politics is concerned it is usually spot on. Contrary to it’s name it is hardly and ideal platform for “Hindu-Extremists” to express their views.

    Everyone has posted so many Links without reading the chain of events properly. It clearly shows the different kinds of things published in the media.There are so many discrepancies in what really happened and what everyone is reading throughout the Web and elsewhere.

    Please do not go on reading all the websites and believe in whatever bullshit anyone is writing on the Net. Make sure you do a bit of the research on the Source of the Article or on the Author before believing in their Word.

    If anybody still bothers to find out what really the position of Indians is then i still re-commend to read my comments@ 28,29,30.I do not claim to be the official spokesperson for the Indian Govt, but that is what most of the Significant men believe in India.

    Still i would take this opportunity to clarify some of the misgivings of our fellow readers here:-

    1. I do not know where it was said that some Terrorists came from Peshawar from what I know 10 are killed, the Captured one says there were 15, We do not know about the rest of the 5.

    2. Nobody is ruling out the possibility of ” Home Support” but there is no concrete evidence to prove it yet. Police Commissioner Hassan Gafoor has also said the same today.

    3. Intially, there was confusion about the name of the captured terrorist as explained by Arwind Swami in one of the articles i quoted, but now the official name is same everywhere but still i do not understand why this is a point of contention?? Does anyone still believes that the RAW or Who-so-ever else was busy deciding what to call the captured one?

    4. What is the big deal in the Captured Terrorist wearing the “Red-Thread” on his wrists? How can people simply believe that he has got connections with Hindu-Extremists?Is it not a way to conceal his real idenity?

    5. Now that FBI, experts from Britan and also Israel are working together with Indians to solve this mystery? Does that give you enough reason that all of the mare involved in this Conspiracy and the Indian Politicians (Congress Party) knowing that Elections are round the corner will allow something like this to happen when their term in office is just about to end?

    Wasim@ 48

    If i knew the answers to most of your questions then maybe I should not be writing on a Public Forum. We can only quote different Articles and express our views on the basis of it. In that respect you have the complete freedom to ask any question or ask for a ‘Concrete Evidence’ but bear in mind Indians will do the same when people make all this Drama to be a RAW-MOSSAD controversy. You only have to put these 2 words together in Google to realise how good some people are at concocting stories.

    Javed@ 56

    “”Sirf bewakoof aur unpad log bol rahe hai ki Pakistan nae aisa kuch kiya hai India ke khilaaf. Akal-mand log sirf yeh bol rahe hai ki :

    1. 10 terrorists came from Karachi, others might be already in India.

    2. Pakistani Territory was used to train them.

    3. Until now there is no indication of the involvement of the ISI or Zardari’s Government.The Role of ISI will never come in front of the Public even if the Americans, Israelis or Brits found anything about it simply because CIA still needs ISI for it’s survival/operations.

    I hope this does not make you all the more confused instead of clearing some of the issues/misgivings.

  48. #49 by Wasim on December 2, 2008 - 9:12 PM

    Omer

    Now they have changed the Faridkot near Multan to Faridkot near Okara, both are at least 200 miles apart.

    How come a guy who was a high school drop out in a remote village in Punjab could speak fluent English?

    According to Hindu he just joined the LeT last year and before that he was a day laborer, in just one year he managed to learn advanced combative skills that along with his 9 friends he managed to hold off 200 Indian Commandos and countless Policemen for over 60 hours. Such skills can only be attained after years of training and nobody can get trained in two short 101 crash courses as the Hindu suggested.

    Through out the operation there were countless TV reports and news flashes in which it was shown that the terrorists were operating simultaneously at multiple locations, now that the number of terrorists have been reduced to 10 officially can anyone tell me how they managed to hit 10 different areas its simply not possible,in the end there were three simultaneous operations going on in Taj, Oberoi and the Jewish center how in the world they could have done it with just two people at most at each location as at least two of them died soon after they attacked the Police station.

    There has been a huge cover up of the whole situation, As just a few hours after the attack Mr Deshmukh announced on TV that three terrorists have been killed and at least nine have been captured, now where are those nine who were captured the chief Minister cannot be so misinformed in such a crisis situation.

    The authorities have backtracked on every initial statement and now the whole attention is being focused on Amir Jamal……?????

    Initially I thought that some Jihadi element could have done this to destroy the peace process, but now it looks like that it is a strategic move to make Pakistan pull its troop back from Afghan border and deploy them on the eastern border by creating tension on the eastern border.

  49. #50 by farrah, k.raja on December 2, 2008 - 10:56 PM

    I would not be surprised if George Bush would be trialed for the genocide of the muslims.

  50. #51 by farrah, k.raja on December 2, 2008 - 11:09 PM

    Well war or no war!
    India has to decide who is the real enemy ?
    Pakistan is not competing for space invasion ,It is betwen China ,India and USA.
    Would USA accept this lunar landing of India and China and India is far bigger than to be a watch dog for USA in Asia,for the population is hungary and 80% of Indian population potential is not used yet.
    Half of China has not been discovered yet,the resources in the Gobi desert.
    While bombing Iraq and getting this war to Iran USA thought nothing in the way from europe to India but it forgot it cleared the way for Chinese as well from Pakistan to Europe.World is a changed place.
    Where ever these three meet hopefully outside Pakistan.

  51. #52 by khansahab on December 2, 2008 - 11:11 PM

    Indian tour will ease tensions: Malik

    Tuesday, 02 Dec, 2008

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan cricket captain Shoaib Malik says the simmering tension between India and Pakistan in the wake of the Mumbai attacks can be lessened through cricket diplomacy.
    ‘Everyone is sad whatever happened in Mumbai last week, but sporting activities should continue to ease the tension,’ Malik said at the National Cricket Academy in Lahore.
    ‘Whenever there has been tension (between India and Pakistan), cricket diplomacy has helped it. And this time cricket diplomacy could also return things to normal.’
    Tension between India and Pakistan heightened after suspected Muslim militants conducted coordinated attacks on India’s financial hub last week, killing 172 people and wounding 239.
    The Mumbai attacks have cast further doubt on the likelihood of India’s scheduled cricket tour of Pakistan in January, but Malik was adamant the series _ due to comprise three tests, five one-day internationals and a Twenty20 international _ should go ahead.
    ‘People of the subcontinent are passionate about cricket and the Indian team should play in Pakistan as per schedule,’ Malik said. ‘By playing cricket we could divert the attention of the people and the situation will definitely improve.’
    Malik also called on England to resume its tour of India after it returned home before completing its seven-match limited-overs international series.
    English officials have said the team will return for two matches, starting Dec. 11, but some leading players have expressed doubt over wanting to restart the tour.
    ‘It will be very good if England return to India and play the test matches because cricket should go on,’ Malik said.
    Pakistan is the only one of cricket’s nine test playing nations which did not play a test match in 2008 after Australia postponed its tour in March due to security concerns.
    The Board of Control for Cricket in India is still waiting for clearance from its government to send a team to Pakistan. The Indian government recently stopped its junior national field hockey team from playing a series in Pakistan due to security reasons.

  52. #53 by Wasim on December 2, 2008 - 11:26 PM

    @ Varun

    It is a fact that some Jihadi organizations are still active in Pakistan.

    It is also a fact since last three years Pakistan has been fighting a full scale war against such elements and as a result the whole northern part of the country has turned into a battle ground and the whole world has seen how badly we have suffered because of the retaliation from these organizations.

    What troubles a Pakistani the most that all the major powers in the region and the world have done nothing but continuously create a mess in the region to achieve their goals and disowned all the mess and dumped it upon Pakistan.

    Pakistani establishment or army had nothing to gain by jeopardizing the peace process it is strategically not in the interest of Pakistan.

    It is also a fact that the jihadis against whom Pakistan army is waging a war and some of the countries will gain a lot if the peace process is stopped and both India and Pakistan return to a stand off.

    It is also a fact that India has its own Jehadi elements and a lot of other ethnic,religious extremists, minority factions and some hawkish political organizations who are capable of doing all this and could have gained politically or strategically from these attacks.

    It has not been proved that all 10 or any of them have come from Pakistan as too many stories have been changed and now it seems more like a fairy tale which is continously evolving.

    Unless an independent or joint commission does its investigation and releases its report no report or confession will be considered as credible. We all know how third degree tactics are employed in subcontinent you can extract any confession.India should take up Pakistan’s proposal of setting up a joint commission to investigate the attacks.

    You said only bewakoof people are saying that Pakistan have done this, but that’s not the case, I’m sorry to say almost all the people who matter and are a part of the Indian establishment are pointing their finger toward Pakistan.

    All Pakistanis can relate with the Indians and understand their anger and frustration but we expected a little bit more patience and mature approach on the part of the Indian establishment since we are fighting against a common enemy, they have been reckless and hasty in their statements, and if the situation continued for some time it would completely destroy the peace process which will be the biggest tragedy in the history of these two nations.

  53. #54 by Qasim on December 2, 2008 - 11:57 PM

    very interesting article from the Dawn:


    KARACHI: Four people were killed in clashes between rival factions in Karachi on Tuesday but police said they were hopeful violence was easing off after days of bloodshed in which dozens of people have been killed, Reuters reported.

    Meanwhile, the Inspector General of Police, Sindh, placed twelve police officers under suspension and demoted them with immediate effect, in response to their failure to protect public life and property, PPI reported.

    Meanwhile, authorities on Tuesday arrested 24 men at an Afghan refugee camp on suspicion of involvement in the riots, officials said.

    ‘We have arrested 24 men who were either directly involved in the violent acts or harboured the criminals,’ Sohail Zafar Chattha, a senior police official, told AFP.

    Police and paramilitary forces also seized weapons and ammunition from the suspects in the operation.

    ‘Most of the suspects we have arrested are Afghan refugees. Some of them are locals,’ Chattha said.

    Karachi is Pakistan’s commercial hub and has a long history of political, ethnic and religious violence.

    The latest clashes between ethnic-based factions have raised fears of a return to the chronic bloodshed that plagued the city in the 1990s.

    The clashes broke out on Saturday between fringe elements within the city’s Urdu-speaking community and ethnic Pashtuns from northwest Pakistan.

    However, political leaders of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) – the major political party in Karachi which represents many Urdu-speaking residents – and the Awami National Party (ANP) – which represents many ethnic Pashtuns – continued to condemn the violence and blame it on ‘hidden elements.’

    MQM minister Shoaib Bukhari told PPI that the ‘involvement of hidden elements in this phenomenon can not be denied.’

    According to Reuters, some commentators in Pakistan have raised the possibility of Indian instigation of the violence in Karachi as a response to last week’s militant assault in Mumbai, which India has linked to Pakistan.

    Former prime minister Nawaz Sharif said he was surprised by the timing of the Karachi violence.

    ‘The killings in Karachi erupted suddenly after the Mumbai incident,’ Sharif told reporters. ‘I’m surprised how it erupted all of a sudden … I think this needs to be looked in to thoroughly, which forces are involved in it.’

    For the most part, violence has remained restricted to certain areas of the city such as Orangi Town, Sohrab Goth, Malir and to a lesser extent Gulistan-i-Jauhar.

    However, many residents continue to be gripped by fear as a result of widely circulated yet unverified reports of violent mutilations being conducted by the rioters.

    City police chief Waseem Ahmed said four people were killed in different incidents in the early hours of Tuesday but the city had been mostly calm since then.

    ‘There has been no major incident since the morning,’ Ahmed told Reuters.

    At least 47 people have been killed and over 200 injured since Saturday, according to a tally of reports from police and hospitals.

    Rivals fought gun battles and burned shops and cars in several parts of the city of 15 million people over the weekend and more disturbances erupted on Monday.

    Police have been told to shoot trouble-makers on sight and have banned pillion riding on motor bikes.

    All schools and colleges in the city were shut for a second day on Tuesday and public transport was thin. But operations at the country’s main port were normal, while financial markets and banks were open.

    Ahmed said the violence had been confined to certain neighbourhoods where members of rival factions lived in close proximity and police convoys were patrolling those hotspots.”

  54. #55 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 12:18 AM

    Qasim

    I read that article this morning but I don’t agree with it.

    I think this ethnic violence was bound to happen for two main reasons:

    1)Departure of Musharraf government meant MQM was weakened

    2) As a result of PPP gaining power, it meant MQM was not that strong. This has facilitated the influx of Pashtuns into Karachi and that is why MQM has been complaining for many months that Karachi is being “Talibanised”.

    So this large scale conflict had to happen; it was only a matter of time.

    Nawaz Sharif is obviously blaming the MQM because of the party’s alleged links with India.

  55. #56 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 12:31 AM

    Shah Rukh Khan has spoken for the first time about his thoughts on the Mumbai atrocities. Speaking exclusively to Raj and Pablo for this Saturday’s (6 December) ‘Love Bollywood’ Show on BBC Asian Network, Shah Rukh speaks openly about why he hasn’t talked about the attacks till now as well as his views on what the younger generation of Muslims should be concentrating on.

    Shah Rukh said “I’ve tried to keep away from commenting on this as there are no words to express a situation like this because our feelings are mixed with anger, disbelief and sadness.”

    In light of the horrific attacks, Shah Rukh went on to give his thoughts on religion and the younger Muslim generation. “Being Muslim myself, I believe youngsters need to understand Islam and respect the religion in the right way. It’s such a huge waste and my appeal to all in these times and in recent years is that please can we run what we want in terms of politics, government, jobs and teaching our children with the prime motive of taking communalism out of it. I think no agenda should be attached to any kind of religion.”

    Shah Rukh spoke passionately about his views on what he feels should be the only religion the nations’ children should follow – ‘work’; he goes on to say, “The religion our children are born with should be something they practice as a discipline and work should be developed as the new religion.”

  56. #57 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 3, 2008 - 1:21 AM

    Varun

    Sirf Bewaqoof log nahee, aqalmand hee, laikin perverts and resourceful people who have total control on media and on the government are speaking. Its not a matter of few but, public opinion hundreds of millions have been and is being changed through the Indian media which is controlled by these people like a mafia and the reports coming out from the Indian media are highly inconsistent and unreliable. Omer, wasim, khansahab et all have pointed out the discrepancies and inconsistencies in the previous comments.

    If you remember the Malegaon case, which Amit quoted the other day, I would like to bring that subject today for a better understanding of this case. Then, the immediate blame was put on groups having links with Pakistan and Bangladesh. The Maharashtra Police immediately blamed the Student Islamic Movement of India, further linking them to the same LeT group and in turn the ISI.

    Even in this Mumbai case, the Indian authorities and the media were quick to assert that the evidence overwhelmingly pointed towards Pakistan and ISI by trying to backup their stories in bollywood style movie.

    In case of Malegaon and even now in Mumbai case, the immediate release of sketches of the suspects, the varying numbers of terrorists and the dynamic inconsistent plan which confuses the most sophisticated military plans on earth, it seemed that Indians had it all figured out who is behind this well orchestrated and well executed plan. For Pakistan it is nothing more than a feeling of déjà vu. Because, India is known to have a history of blaming Pakistan and ISI for the smallest of occurrences in India, hardly ever backing it up with any credible evidence. Ultimately they ended up uncovering their own home-grown terrorism.

    In Feb. 2007, the Samjhota train (which Omer has already quoted, but I am reiterating it to substantiate what he said) that travels from Delhi to Lahore was hit by a bomb, killing as many as 68 people. Most of the casualties consisted of Pakistani nationals. The immediate reaction was, Pakistan has done this! Then, in May 2007 blast at Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad, as many as 14 people were killed and over 50 injured, Earlier in April 2006 twin blasts at New Delhi’s Jama Masjid. Pakistan is behind this.

    When the ATS uncovered the Malegaon plot, to everyone’s surprise the culprit was an Indian, Lieutenant Colonel Prashad Srikant Purohit his other accomplice, Major (retd.) Ramesh Upadhyay and a more other conspirators and the plot was unearthed that the Bhonsla Military School in Nashik was used as a training ground by the conspirators. There is a full report on Malegaon incident and the death of the ATS chief in Mumbai attacks is reportedly a retaliation from the Malegaon conspirators.

    The chilling part of the entire episode is the involvement of accused Lt Col Purohit in bomb attack on the Samjhauta Express to which he confessed during investigation. Col Purohit has also confessed to training Hindu terrorists for attacking Muslims. beside training them for attacking Samjhauta Express for which he had also supplied them RDX. He further confessed that it was intended to cause armed conflict between Pakistan and India so that anti-Muslim passions could be nurtured in India, leading to Hyderabad’s Mecca Masjid and the blasts at New Delhi’s Jama Masjid.

    It is a well known fact that once George Fernandes had asked the Indian army chief, the Air Marshal, and the Admiral to report the Kargil war to MPs. When the three obliged to the given orders and the place where meeting was planned, it was the party office of BJP – The Saffron Brigade.

    A terrorist is always a Muslim, a Hindu cannot be a terrorist, in fact you cannot use the word Hindu, you have to address them as Indians. Because of the secular mask that represents The Republic of India. Now, here is something about the BJP and VHP.

    BJP President Rajnath Singh said that Hindu saints were being maligned, referring to the confessions. And VHP’s ( Vishwa Hindu Parishad) Praveen Togadia says, a Hindu can never be a terrorist. Contrary to this, a completely opposite stance to this is taken by the BJP when Muslim politicians are the subject of discussion, particularly in this context.

    “Gandhiji also said ‘politics without religious values is of no use to me’. He meant the Dharma. Dharma needs to be in politics otherwise it will become immoral.” Rajnath Singh argued Indian analysts are now worried about Hindu terrorism. Some of it has been on display for a long time against the Muslim community. Some of it is recent; targeting Christian missionaries and Christian converts.

    Because of the rise of Hindu fundamentalism in the 1980s, which saw a revival of old Hindu supremacist thinkers like Savarkar, who was behind the killing of Gandhi, India is now open to terrorism that is lashing out at the state. People are accustomed to voting the BJP to power as an alternative to the Congress and that in turn empowers the grand Hindu fundamentalist alliance called the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) that contains such extremist outfits as Bajrang Dal and Shiv Sena.

    A common sense conclusion would be that these acts of terrorism are aimed at creating a communal divide in India, to fulfill the ultimate dream of the Hindu Raj over India. A country where mosques are bombed, army men like, Colonel Purohit join hands with radical groups like Swami Dayanand Pandey to unleash terror at the expense of innocent lives of their own countrymen, it is a country that has failed to her own people, let alone by taken as a model of democracy to be followed by the rest of the world.

    It is high time India should take lead from the situation in her neighboring country where fundamentalists are on the rampage and blowing innocents into piece.

    It is high time that the not so “bewaqoof” people realize this and get together and fight terrorism together and get rid of the terrorists and the extremists.

  57. #58 by farrah, k.raja on December 3, 2008 - 10:24 AM

    Well! Well! Well!
    Today London Metro says that MUMBAI Gunmen “high on drugs”.
    Terrorists who launched the deadly attacks across Mumbai were high on drugs throughout their assualt ,it has emerged.They had syringes on them and traces of LSD and cocaine were found in their blood.This explains why they managed to battle the commandos for over 50 hours with no food or sleep”said an official.”
    ———–
    Which official ,not quoted.How much money INDIAN BUSINESSMEN have spent in India,USA and UK on media compaign to show Pakistan is the root of all evil.Yet it seems this media whirl wind is turning into abyss of stupidity.With LSD and cocaine even the drugs are so stupid ,if it had been ecstacy perhaps it would have made more sense.(This technique is so innovative for soldiers:)
    ———————–

    A JEWISH RABAI and his innocent wife out of the way have been delibrately targetted.Not much attention is being paid to this INSTEAD INDIA is diverting the attention of world media towards PAKISTAN.THE WORLD including Pakistanis has its eyes on INDIA to provide answers .

    It is time for answers not the media circus.World is watching and waiting and it seems it would not go away.INDIAN COMMANDOS were involved in the operation and they addressed the MEDIA completely out of way .Provide solid evidence to Pakistan and International world and than ask Pakistan to take action?If Pakistan refuses than only think of attacking Pakistan.
    Even BUSH launched war on the basis of media compaign and false reports but it seems ,I like the body language,open,friendly and close so unlike BUSH and Condaleza Rice,standing alone with no emotion on the face.
    I hope India will understand the body language of new White House.
    2008 World has to celebrate.

  58. #59 by Varun Suri on December 3, 2008 - 10:58 AM

    Javed,

    You have very eloquently aggrandized the threat of Hindu Extremism in India. Now that you have mentioned some of the other incidents, let me elaborate more on some of them: –

    1.MALEGAON
    2.SAMJHAUTA Express Blasts:-
    3.Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad
    4.Jama Masjid in Delhi

    Considering the kind of text which is and has been uploaded on various websites and which is being read by knowledgeable people like you, I cannot allay your exaggerated fear of Hindu Extremism, all I can do is throw more light on the specific incidents you mentioned.

    Before you term India as a failed Democracy and turn the Bombay drama a Hindu-Muslim Issue do not fail to consider that all the above mentioned 4 incidents were at some point of time thoroughly investigated and in case of Malegaon Case lot of things came up which should not have come up in the media if India was a failed Democracy!! In only the first “PROVEN” incident of it’s kind several Hindu religious leaders were caught and thoroughly investigated. The media did not do anything to hide their names?

    The police commissioner of Bombay handling this high profile case is also a Muslim by the name of Hasan Gafoor?

    Which other Democratic country can you see an example of this kind of “SECULARISM”?

    In a way I agree, if this is what we have achieved by blowing the trumpet of Secularism for 60 Years then maybe it’s high time we should stop singing this song and sing the tune rest of the World expects from us i.e. some kind of strict Totalitarian regime.

    You have quite nicely tried to link Savarkar to Gandhi to the present day rise of Hindu extremism. Gandhi died in 1948 and Babri Masjid fell in 1992 (which according to me is the start of the rise of Hindu Extremism in India). If one goes by your theme of converting India into a Hindu Raj then What were these Extremists doing for almost 45 Years between these two events? Why have we not heard any case of Hindu Extremism in that period?

    You wrote: –
    “For Pakistan it is nothing more than a feeling of déjà vu. Because, India is known to have a history of blaming Pakistan and ISI for the smallest of occurrences in India, hardly ever backing it up with any credible evidence. Ultimately they ended up uncovering their own home-grown terrorism.”

    I agree it could be a déjà vu feeling for you but for the first time there IS credible evidence to prove external hand in the Bombay Carnage. Now that Pakistan has seen the “Chicken’s coming to roost” so their Government adapted a “Holier than Thou” attitude that both India and Pakistan are suffering from Terrorism when the fact is India is suffering from it since 1989 when Benazir Bhutto waved the Green Flag and encouraged the Separatists/Militants/Jehadists to drive out the Pandits out of the Indian Kashmir!! But because the memories of our people is too short and everything is conveniently forgotten nobody likes to go into history and hence treat every incident mutually exclusive.

    You also wrote:
    “A common sense conclusion would be that these acts of terrorism are aimed at creating a communal divide in India, to fulfill the ultimate dream of the Hindu Raj over India.”

    Well Guess what, the same Common Sense also tells most of the 1.2 Billion Indians to the following two facts which I will repeat again with your permission:-

    Certain elements within Pakistan ( Army or Politicians or Headless Chickens!) want to show to the world that :-

    1.Foreigners are as safe in India as they are in Pakistan
    2.Do not invest in India.

    You also said: –
    “It is high time India should take lead from the situation in her neighboring country where fundamentalists are on the rampage and blowing innocents into piece. ”

    Well, in only the first incident of it’s kind the ATS have divulged so many different kinds of facts that anybody questioning the secularity of India should reflect on this and ponder if India is truly a country consisting of Hindu Extremists then why do you people know things, which should have been hidden from the common public, ideally?

    To conclude I would just like to share a General thought with you all:-

    There is a fundamental difference between a Islamic Jehadi and a Hindu Extremist, for an Islamic Jehadi there is no notion of boundaries or borders as the Supreme thing of importance for him is his devotion to his religion and that is Islam so for him the Borders and Countries don’t matter where-as a Hindu Extremist very strongly relates the idea of Hinduism with the Country of India, their agenda is not to popularize or spread the Religion elsewhere but establish a Hindu Raj in India and for this reason only I believe that No Hindu Extremist or Terrorist would try to cause havoc, panic and such a big tragedy on their own soil no matter how big their cause is according to them.
    Role of Hindu Extremists in small-time Blasts, looting, burning, attacking places of other Religions and attacking people from other Religions cannot be excluded but a Catastrophe of such a big magnitude?
    “Dil nahee maanta ki apne log aisa karenge apne hi logo kay khilaaf, wo bhee innocent logon per firing & dahshat-gardi?”

  59. #60 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 11:48 AM

    Tanvir irks PCB, could face disciplinary action

    KARACHI: Sohail Tanvir has irked the Pakistan Cricket Board
    for holding an unauthorised press conference in Islamabad on Tuesday, following which
    the Board is contemplating a disciplinary action against the left-arm fast bowler.

    Addressing the media on Tuesday night, Tanvir urged the Indian cricket team to tour Pakistan despite last week’s Mumbai mayhem that killed nearly 200 people.

    However, it didn’t go well with the PCB as senior officials notably Chairman, Ejaz Butt, Chief operating officer, Saleem Altaf and newly-appointed Director-General, Javed Miandad expressed unhappiness over the pacer’s action.

    “There is no doubt that Sohail has violated his central contract by holding such a conference without seeking permission of the PCB,” one Board official said.

    “We are looking into the matter as no player is permitted to interact with the media and have press conferences without prior permission of the Board. The penalties for violating this clause are clearly laid down in the players central contracts,” he said.

    Tanvir was in Mumbai during the terror attacks and, since returning home, has pleaded for the game not to be affected by the tragic incident.

    Sources in the PCB said that the Chairman had told his officials to ensure that Pakistani cricketers refrain from giving statements in the press on the India series.

    “The Chairman was not very pleased with the statement of captain Shoaib Malik that Pakistani players were willing to go and play in India even if India decides not to tour Pakistan,” one source disclosed.

    He said Butt has told Altaf and Miandad to instruct the players to refrain from speaking to the media on the sensitive issue of Indo-Pak relations and the coming series.

  60. #61 by theossa on December 3, 2008 - 1:20 PM

    If Pak was involved in the Mumbai Drama then India certainly has a good plan to get even with Pak. Here is the elaboration; my returning flight to Pittsburgh was from Karachi so I stayed there for the last week of my vacation. The MQM leader Altaf “BHI” has recently started giving statements that “Talebans” have arrived in Karachi and people of Karachi should be prepared and should get fire arms for their protection. He even mentioned all the areas of Karachi where there is majority of Pushtoon ethnicity. Since I’m friends with people both from MQM and ANP, I came to know that a stage is set to soak Karachi in the blood just like the bloody clashes that happened in the mid 80s between the Pushtoons minority and Urdu speaking majority of Karachi. Then, that was blamed on the dictator Zia-ul-Haq but this time it will be entirely on the “Bhi” sitting in England and stirring things up in Karachi with the backing of India. Anyways, recently some thugs burned Pushtoon owned small hotels and “Chai Khanas”. They even beat some waiters and reportedly cut their ears. I would consider it an isolated incident but similar events happened in multiple areas (that was right after the Mumbai bloody drama). So before I was getting to plane back to U.S., I met a few friends and I got the impression that Pushtoon minority in Karachi who mostly control transportation in Karachi, own small hotels or work as Taxi drivers or security guards were ready to retaliate. A local Pushtoon leader was visiting “90” to talk to MQM about the attacks on Pushtoon community but I don’t know how the talks went. So my prediction is if things go worse we’ll soon see Army’s interference in Karachi a. I hope Pak and India get some senses and stop playing this bloody and dirty politics to undermine the peace in the other country. The root of all hatred between these two countries is Kashmir. To me, solution of Kashmir issue is very simple, India keeps its part and Pak keeps its part, I don’t see one country getting the part occupied by the other country. Let there be peace.

  61. #62 by Awas on December 3, 2008 - 2:18 PM

    Varun, Javed, Omer, Wasim, Farrah and All

    You have all made excellent contributions on this thread and debated the issues really well. It’s very difficult to disregard one argument or the other completely.

    India and Pakistan and not just these two countries but the other powers too need to work together to get rid of this menace of terrorism. Despite all its power and efforts, America still hasn’t succeeded in catching its most wanted man – Bin Laden, yet. So it’s difficult to blame and criticise our own countries and each other for not doing enough. People in Pakistan are being killed daily, by American drones, Pak forces and terrorists. Still the problem keeps escalating.

    Pointing fingers at each other is not going to solve problems and neither is by killing suspects, terrorists as not only new ones come up but more lives that are lost are of innocent people. The problem is, when status-quo continues no one bothers and when something like this incident happens everyone starts jumping up and down until the next episode starts. For solving deep rooted problems, the leaders need to come out of the box and think differently as well as dealing with the miscreants with an iron fist. American strategy is just the later one – to use force. The others just follow US.

  62. #63 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 3:07 PM

    Karachi does not belong to one particular ethnicity. It belongs to the people of Pakistan. Just like how the territory now termed modern Pakistan was supposed to belong to the Muslims of the entire Subcontinent.

    Urdu Speakers need to stop considering it as their city only, even if that somehow makes them second class citizens.

    Karachi needs to work and it can only work if every ethnicity controls the city. I am all for greater rights for Sindhis and Pashtuns in Karachi because Urdu Speakers are in the majority and Punjabis are the next most populated ethnicity; however, Punjabis control much of the enterprise and economy of Karachi. They don’t have as much to complain about as other ethnic minorities.

    NWFP has been a very neglected province and people of Karachi should consider them as their brethren. Only then will Karachi stand out as an example for all Pakistanis and people of other regions will become more tolerant and open to each other.

    Having said all that, it is unfair to blame all of the city’s problems on MQM solely. Many Urdu Speakers have been killed in these current riots and many are killed in every ethnic or political clash in the city.

  63. #64 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 3:18 PM

    Sena warns Pakistanis Monitoring Desk

    MUMBAI: The Hindu extremist party, Shiv Sena, announced to shut the doors of Mumbai and Maharashtra on the Pakistani players and artists, according to an Indian televison. A parliament member of Shiv Sena, taliking with an Indian TV, said that this had been a policy of his party that there should not be any relations between the peoples of Pakistan and India. He said that no Pakistani player or artist would be allowed to work in Mumbai and Maharashtra. A senior official of Shiv Sena said now any of the Pakistani players and artists cannot step into Maharashtra.

  64. #65 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 3:21 PM

    Hmmmm B F, i never said KHI is my city? lol If Ne thing, it’s all ures! hehe

  65. #66 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 3:24 PM

    GF

    It’s the city of everyone who seeks life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

  66. #67 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 3:25 PM

    lol B F, It’s what i call ‘A Hell hole’ hehehe

  67. #68 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 3:26 PM

    GF

    Thank God you didn’t call it an A$$hole

    🙂

  68. #69 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 3:26 PM

    Btw, what does G F stand for? lolll ;p

  69. #70 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 3:26 PM

    Girlfriend

  70. #71 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 3:27 PM

    If Khi wasn’t a city & instead human, that’s prolly what i would’ve named it LOL same diff u see!

  71. #72 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 3:28 PM

    Awww B F, im cool with that!

  72. #73 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 3:29 PM

    Yeah and I’m very cool with what I THINK BF means 🙂

  73. #74 by Dimple Rosy Cheeks on December 3, 2008 - 3:33 PM

    Pakistan is already in a financial crisis and is in meltdown, killing one and another will just add to the instability.

    The rich get richer in Pakistan and the poor seem to get poorer. We need to stop all the unnecessary killings and a pro active approach has to be taken and fast.

    I totally agree with the sentiments conveyed by Awas.

  74. #75 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 3:42 PM

    B F, u think u know what B F stands for? I already told u…

  75. #76 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 3:46 PM

    GF

    Let me enjoy this dream while it lasts….

  76. #77 by Sana on December 3, 2008 - 3:54 PM

    >>The rich get richer in Pakistan and the poor seem to get poorer. We need to stop all the unnecessary killings and a pro active approach has to be taken and fast.

    I think that involves an overhaul in the mentality of the Pak system for that to happen.

  77. #78 by theossa on December 3, 2008 - 4:05 PM

    Confucius says, “Without an acquaintance with the rules of propriety, it is impossible for the character to be established”. So I say good going between Sweetie and ladies man Khansahab -:)

  78. #79 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 4:14 PM

    hehehe Enjoy!!

  79. #80 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 4:15 PM

    Yeah B F, go ahead & tell this dude wats goin GOOD.. LOL

  80. #81 by Awas on December 3, 2008 - 4:15 PM

    khansahab @ 83

    Sounds like Nirvana…if true I am going there…Lol. Mind you it wasn’t far from it in the email I sent…can this be shared on LS?

    Sweetie

    Nirvana… ‘A Hell hole’…same difference…Lol

    Cheeks

    Its good to know some people read me….thanks!

  81. #82 by Dimple Rosy Cheeks on December 3, 2008 - 4:16 PM

    Sana,

    It is an unrealistic dream but one which can be achieved if really desired. Nothing is impossible (even in Pakistan!).

  82. #83 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 4:18 PM

    awww Awas, i read ure cooment too. But but but…

  83. #84 by theossa on December 3, 2008 - 4:21 PM

    Awas, yeah some people read you and some people observe you also. If I’m not mistaken you are back with your “Balls on the Face” picture. Please let W G Grace rest in peace and not in bal*s.

  84. #85 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 4:41 PM

    Lollllll @ theossa

  85. #86 by Dimple Rosy Cheeks on December 3, 2008 - 4:45 PM

    Yes Awas people do read your comments 🙂

  86. #87 by Awas on December 3, 2008 - 4:45 PM

    “But but but”….what?…why you stopped? Did I bore you?

    Hey, Mr Observant…Some people never die…”balls on the face”…remember in them days there were no helmets 🙂

  87. #88 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 4:53 PM

    No Awas u did not bore me… i just hit the brakes hehe

  88. #89 by Awas on December 3, 2008 - 4:56 PM

    On the contrary, if the “balls” that you meant were really of that size, you don’t need many more testosterone filled men in the world…polygamy would be very common…nature is very balanced…Lol.

    Sweetie

    Careful hitting the brakes like that in this snow…remember what happened with the heels 🙂

  89. #90 by theossa on December 3, 2008 - 5:03 PM

    Awas, I wasn’t referring to human balls on your LS picture-:)

  90. #91 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 5:07 PM

    HAHA @ the comment for Mr observant.

    Awas i slipped on Uggs which is sans heels! I do quite well with heels. =)

  91. #92 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 5:07 PM

    LOLL @ T

  92. #93 by Awas on December 3, 2008 - 5:11 PM

    Sweetie

    Oooops!

  93. #94 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 3, 2008 - 5:13 PM

    In one of the movies, I am not sure if it was Men in Black 2, or whichever. The hero was trying to kick one of the baddies hard between his legs and nothing would happen, then suddenly one of hero’s allys yells at him by saying: “Hey he is a BALLCHINO” So then he kicks him on his chin and then he goes flat.

    The only difference btwn Awas’s and Ballchino’s is HAIR. 🙂

    theossa welcome back to the blog. If you want to know how I am? Go to Natalie and she will tell you that I took great care of her. 😉

  94. #95 by Awas on December 3, 2008 - 5:18 PM

    Lol @ Javed…good one!

    I guess Natalie was satiated with your…ummm…pampering…

  95. #96 by theossa on December 3, 2008 - 5:20 PM

    Javed, yeah Natalie told me how nice of you it was to fix her car and give her a “Raakhi”. She said “Javed Bhi were great”.

  96. #97 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 5:38 PM

    lol exactly what i thought. NOT AGAIN

  97. #98 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 5:50 PM

    Omer, none taken. It’s just too much don’t u think?

  98. #99 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 3, 2008 - 6:11 PM

    Varun #76

    Bhai, you have added my Dil nahee maanta vali line with a question mark in your above comment. I can see the frustration and the sarcasm. I am not trying to ridicule you or anyone and I appreciate the way bloggers are discussing this very serious issue in a very civil manner.

    You wrote: I cannot allay your exaggerated fear of Hindu Extremism ….

    First of all I have not exaggerated and personally I am not afraid from anyone, be it a Muslim or a Hindu form of extremism.

    Secondly, you are citing my words in the wrong context by highlighting “India as a failed Democracy..” After quoting the various incidents of extremism among Hindu religious parties who control the current Indian government more than Zardari is being controlled by the army or the ISI in Pakistan, my emphasis was more on SECULARISM than Democracy. And, in that context I said, “it is a country that has failed to her own people, let alone by taken as a model of democracy to be followed by the rest of the world.”

    My point: India is using the Secularism triumph card by showing it to the world about its Democracy and the government keeps denying they are under any kinda pressure from the Hindu extremists like BJP, VHP, RRS,(Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal etc., have more stronger roots and connections inside the government and have more control over the people than the so-called LeT, which is not even a party just a group of fanatics.

    In reply to your question about Veer Savarkar what happened in the 45 years? Neither you nor I was born then. But, the fact is in 1948 after the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi his group was banned in 1948 for two years after Mahatma Gandhi’s assassination. Because Nathuram Godse, the man who killed Gandhi, was a former RSS member. Then, from the same Hindu fundamentalist background, the BJP or the Bharatiya Janata Party is a political party that began its life in 1951 as the Jan Sangh, as the political wing of the RSS.

    And, we all know how BJP formally came into being as BJP in 1980.

    Veer Savarkar died in 1966 but, two years before his death he corroborated with his comrades to set up an army of Hardcore Hindu Extremist and in 1964 founded the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) or the World Hindu Council. Which is the religious wing of the RSS and was formally set up in 1966 as a non-political group “to consolidate and strengthen Hindu society.”

    It has a huge following worldwide because it was set up to strengthen the Hindu fraternity globally. Setting up VHP before the death of Veer Savarkar’s death is not a coincidence but, a wow or a pledge to carry out his dreams of Hinduvta and HinduRaj in India.

    By the way Varun, I am not creating these stories from my head or from thin air, these are well documented facts and they have been written by broadminded and open hearted Hindu analysts like Sugita Katyal who wrote India’s Hindu groups: three bodies, one soul, where she wrote, they are often tossed into the same bowl in the alphabet soup of Indian politics. She is referring to BJP, VHP & RSS.

    This is not just an isolated case, there are many and one of them is written by Supriya RoyChowdhury and the title is: The killing of Gandhi. In which she wrote with sarcasm against Indian Hindus and the Indian historians which targeted only Muslims and Jinnah in particular and that too from the secondary school level text books:

    Quote: “The Muslim League communalised the country’s political situation.The bitterness created by the Muslim League produced dangerous results. The common people were subjected to senseless brutalities. Gandhi and other leaders… did try to control the situation but with little success. It was under these sad and tragic circumstances that India got Independence on August 15, 1947″ (pp 157). This is a quote from CBSE history books of India.

    The chapter on Independence ends without a single reference to Gandhi’s assassination. Nor is there any reference in the subsequent chapter on the Indian Constitution to his killing, or to any other aspect of his life and ideas. This is the history text that 14-year-olds all over the country who study the CBSE (Central Board of Secondary Education) syllabus must learn from…..

    Unquote.

    To be continued………

  99. #100 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 6:18 PM

    B F, ‘ I am agreeing with you’, ‘I am agreeable to blahblah’, & ‘ I agree with you’ are infact correct. Iam agree with u is an incorrect statement, sentence rather.

  100. #101 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 3, 2008 - 6:31 PM

    theossa #113

    Oh Gosh, she told you that I fixed her car and oiled the engine? Man, these gals can’t keep their mouths shut. Anyways, now you don’t need to do any oiling for the next 12 months. And she even mentioned to you about my affair with Rakhee? Thats because I told her that Rakhee ki Ankhain Cheetay ke terha hain! So, she had to blab out that as well? And BHI means ALSO unless you are trying to say BHAI. Remember tum chota bhai hai. Bara bhai is always great! 🙂

  101. #102 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 6:33 PM

    GF

    On this blog, “I am agree” with you is correct and everything else is incorrect 🙂

  102. #103 by Varun Suri on December 3, 2008 - 6:39 PM

    Omer @ 114

    Okay, first of all I would not like disrupt the good harmony here, but time and again i have repeated my stance that Neither the Pakistani government nor the ISI ‘s involvement have been proven so far and the only thing i am saying that out of those 10 Terrorists atleast 1 or maybe more were from Pakistan.

    I have never claimed that ISI or the Pakistani Government is trying to bomb the Indian Cities but my only reason why i stressed on those 2 points was to make everyone realise that just like such an argument sounds ridiculous to everyone here, similarly the argument that all this is a drama set up by RAW/Mossad sounds ridiculous to many people who are not here on this Forum.

    There is no reason for Pakistani’s to be jealous of India because never in the past 60 Years India has been portrayed as a friendly,amiable or simply good neighbour. Historically there is so much of mistrust on both the sides that more often than not, any achievement or anything done good by anyone is never acknowledged on either of the sides. It is very difficult to find people like Mr Hoodbhoy who can actually travel across the Border and then write something good or free from personal bias!! Often i have heard people downplaying the acheivements of Indian Software Industry by saying that most of them are back-office Call-Centre operators! or for that matter the Claims that nothing within the Indian Space Organisation (ISRO) or N-Industry is indigenious and everything is imported from friends abroad.On the Indian side also achievements across the Border are denigrated and some of the other things highlighted for eg. Everytime there is a IMF loan to Pakistan, one could gladly see that News anywhere in India but they will never show or quote people like Mr.Hoodbhoy or Ms. Minallah!!

    Now come to think of it, If there are Terrorist groups operating in Pakistan who knows that currently there is a Weak Government incharge ( because of increased Terror in Pakistan itself)
    Why would they not try to take the advantage of the situation and create havoc both sides of the Border as there main aim is to always see India and Pakistan as arch enemies?

    These-days so many people are busy hatching up stories and plots involving RAW/Mossad/CIA and God knows What! without realising that they themselves are hell-bent on determining the Truth through the key-word of the season ‘EVIDENCE’. When the right image of a country is not only projected properly how can one expect to be Jealous or not of the other? Nobody will ask for evidence if i were to say that the amount of ignorance about each-other which exists in the Common Public within our Countries is so shockingly unimaginable.

    Often people in Pakistan commit the mistake of thinking that the Indian ‘Sarkar’ runs similarly to them and think that with each and every incident RAW is involved or is controlling the Govt. by some means when the reality is that Indian Politics is too complicated to come up with one single agenda to be given to RAW or Vice-Versa. There is no need to produce an evidence to prove that whether ISI has more say in Pakistani Government or RAW in India? The best example of which, happened recently when Zardari might have been admonished by his ISI advisors/generals after publicly declaring that ISI Chief will travel to India.

    Regarding the Superiorty Complex issue you touched upon by referring to your friend, I would say this is a very common atribute for all of us South-Asians for example I can say this from my personal experience that many Pakistani’s do not hold the Afghans to be in high-respect as some of them might see them as collaborating with Indians to cause ‘instigation’ within Pakistan, others might simply blame Afghanistan for most of their problems. This kind of bias also exists within the Punjabis in Pakistan where they look down upon the Mohajirs or maybe other ethnicities in Pakistan. Infact within India there are so many Superiorty or Inferiority Complexes that it makes me believe that maybe this is a normal human tendency and can never be a motivation for such a Carnage.

  103. #104 by farrah, k.raja on December 3, 2008 - 6:45 PM

    Englands cricketers are expected back in India next week having been promised tighter security.England team is expected to arrive in Chennai next Monday for the first game of a two Test series due to start on 11
    Dear Indian Friends Maybe we do not believe in adjectives but we can believe in music.

  104. #105 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 7:12 PM

    Varun/Amit P/Kunal Sabherwal/Anfaal/Pawan

    As with most discussions, the level of intensity reached during this current debate was unforeseen.

    Regardless of whatever our views on Indian democracy or Hindu extremism may be, the fact is that India has emerged as a success story as opposed to a failed state. Most people in the world will agree with that assertion, and for that we give India credit.

    We have often commented that Indians generally are more calm, educated and wiser than Pakistanis. However, with the calmness, education and wisdom I suppose we expect more patience and tolerance. Please don’t get me wrong, you all are very mature, tolerant and wise individuals and it is our honour to have you all on this blog.

    Pakistanis and Indians are both very passionate about their respective countries and the love for our homelands runs through our blood. So let us accept that sometimes we can all become impatient and incensed when we are discussing politics, religion or even cricket.

    Nothing that has been said in this “Mumbai terrorism debate” should affect our stance of mutual respect, cooperation and our ultimate goal of promoting peace and love between India and Pakistan.

    We will love and respect each other more if we consider our similarities as opposed to differences. Think about our views on LS:

    1) We all hate terrorists and we all hate religious extremism
    2) To an extent we all discuss Indian movies/songs/poetry
    3) We feel the same way about cricket on most matters and we learn from and respect each others’ views
    4) We all demonstrate an interest in politics and social issues affecting both India and Pakistan

    I hope we will all put any disagreement that we may have had over the terrorism issue, behind us and let us look to the future.

  105. #106 by Varun Suri on December 3, 2008 - 8:00 PM

    Ama..Yaar khansahab aap bewaja kyo Tensioniya gaye ho?
    Hum to bas guppe maar rahe hai…just to cheer up the mood a bit…here’s yet another Defence Analyst giving his expert views, I do know who this guy is but he’s funny!

  106. #107 by Awas on December 3, 2008 - 8:04 PM

    khansahab

    Well said…I couldn’t have put it in better words…Bravo!

    We are all the same people after all…remember it was once a one land…just like East and West Germany…no difference…

  107. #108 by Varun Suri on December 3, 2008 - 8:18 PM

    Shall we also break the WALL then?

  108. #109 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 8:35 PM

    Pakistan may take tough stance against India

    Karachi: PCB and its players may be insisting they have no problems playing in India despite the growing tensions between the two countries after the Mumbai attacks but pressure is building up on the Board to change its soft stance on cricketing ties with the neighbours.
    There has been a huge public response to the suggestion by former Pakistan captain Rashid Latif that Pakistani players must boycott the IPL and ICL events to protest the Indian allegations of use of Pakistan territory in the Mumbai attacks.
    PCB sources admitted there was now a feeling that if India refuse to tour Pakistan early next year, the Board should rethink its strategy of allowing players to play in India.
    “There is a pressure group building up in the cricket circles with the support of some fundamentalist political parties who believe there is no need for the Pakistan Board to insist on having cricket ties with India after the way the Indian media and authorities have blamed Pakistan for the Mumbai attacks,” one well placed source told PTI.
    “There is pressure that if the Indian government does not send its national team to Pakistan because of the Mumbai attacks then Pakistan should also not allow the Sialkot stallions or other players to play in the Indian Premier League,” the source said.

  109. #110 by Sana on December 3, 2008 - 8:43 PM

    >>It is an unrealistic dream but one which can be achieved if really desired. Nothing is impossible (even in Pakistan!).

    Nah, many Paks come with an in-bred mentality which doesnt change with education, credentials or even moving to a western country. It’s something innate sadly. On the contrary, i often wonder why and how India has progressed in more aspects than Pak when they were one country not so long ago. It isn’t a hindu v. muslim thing, it’s simply a pak v. indian mentality difference.

    The Indians I compare to those of the Jewish faith – somehow they manage to progress very well and at the same time retain the non-backward aspects of their culture/faith. For some reasons Paks cant…esp given most of the clap trap culture doesn’t even come from Islam.

    Of course i am only talking about what i have personally seen and experienced in the UK. Only been to Pak once, and that was this year…am in no hurry to go again and get ripped off for almost everything – hotel, taxi etc. I can understand being ripped off in the bazaars (that happens even in Mecca!) but the dishonesty in that country is rife from top to bottom.

  110. #111 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 10:15 PM

    Sana

    0017 reporting for duty.

    You are on the right lines there in saying that Pakistani culture does not come from Islam.

    However, a massive difference why there is an ideological and cultural disparity between Indians and Pakistanis is because of the way religion has been managed by the two countries. In Pakistan religion has been inserted in everything and the interpretation of religion has been so extreme, so as to be incompatible with modern standards. Whereas in India religion mostly is perceived as a personal matter and always comes after issues like education and nationalism (except for the extremists of course, which you will find in every country).

    Education is really the main reason and the overriding reason why cultural barriers have not been transgressed. Hence there is a very strong culture of feudalism in Pakistan and conservative attitudes towards “village mentality” which means people find it difficult to become more open, tolerant and reasonable. This “village mentality” attitude also means women are not treated equal to men, it means corruption/nepotism/cronyism is not actively discouraged.

    Some of the most religious Jews are the top scientists, lawyers and accountants in the UK and USA. That is because although they follow religion meticulously, they do not let their religious fervour come in the way of their intellectual appetite. In Pakistan religion somehow starts and ends in belief in God, fasting, prayer, charity and the Pilgrimage.

    For me, religion is serious business and like a science or a process. In order to understand and implement this theory or process, I need to have a sound and reasonable mind that can see the difference between A and B and can competently articulate this difference. I don’t see religion necessarily in the physical acts of prayer or reciting the declaration of submission to God and acknowledgment of Muhammad (PBUH) as his Prophet.

    Religion is much more and it needs to be understood with education, reason, justification and good sense. People in Pakistan who die thinking they have accomplished the purpose of life by praying (and that also by thinking what position their hands were in, what position their forehead was in when they performed Sajda, whether their feet were in a straight line, well-aligned, or at an angle, or so forth) and fasting (whether they ever swallowed their own saliva thinking that it broke their fast, whether an inadvertent raindrop seeping through their lips and reaching the rim of the back of the mouth and opening of the “throat canal” somehow meant their fast was nullified, and so forth) in my opinion haven’t necessarily accomplished the purpose. Of course we can’t tell how our Creator perceives the situation. But we can surmise, we can reason, we can offer two positions, A and B, analyse them, and enunciate competent and justifiable reasons for our opinions. That is what education does to you, and that is how religion must be practised.

    When an individual challenges this position saying that you cannot ask questions about religion and you must follow religion according to how HE feels you should follow it, this person does not realise he is being a bigot and an extremist. Of course, you might yourself be blamed for being a bigot if you oppose or don’t subscribe to the other bigot’s beliefs and opinions. However, the educated mind here would intervene and make a distinction (this somehow links to my point about having two hypothetical positions, A and B, and eliciting differences between them). The distinction is one of the Jews, who despite being predominantly religious are very well off and well educated.

    That attitude of bigotry negates the very nature and notion of education and reason. Hence you have here the Dichotomy that explains why Muslims as a religious group and why Pakistanis as a national group have not succeeded.

  111. #112 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 10:44 PM

    Varun

    What Wall are you talking about?

    Rahul Dravid?

    I fear the worst for this Wall.

  112. #113 by farrah, k.raja on December 3, 2008 - 10:53 PM

    khanshab (134)
    Taken aback to read the comment.Went back to check have I read the name correctly.
    Must appreciate your direct and scholarly approach .

  113. #114 by khansahab on December 3, 2008 - 10:55 PM

    Ms Raja

    Thank you.

  114. #115 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 3, 2008 - 11:03 PM

    khansahab

    The detailed description you have portrayed of how the Muslims in Pakistan view religion by saying what you have said in your comment # 134

    First of all about the Muslims of Pakistan:

    Those things that you’ve mentioned in detail like, praying, position of hands, feet, forehead and how to prostate? On swallowing saliva during fasting or a raindrop etc., can break their fast and so on. IF you go and look for such people perhaps they may be hardly 2% of the population. Besides, this is really very trivial and a petty matter to make comparisons about how one holds his hands or keep his feet while praying or to say who is right and who is wrong in this. So, lets not discuss this. Your second point needs some clarification.

    The second point that you have touched which I do not agree with it, you’ve said: “In Pakistan religion has been inserted in everything and the interpretation of religion has been so extreme, so as to be incompatible with modern standards. Whereas in India religion mostly is perceived as a personal matter and always comes after issues like education and nationalism.”

    Actually 99% of the Urban population of Pakistan don’t take religion seriously, they all go or send their children to regular schools according to their financial strengths and capabilities. A huge majority don’t pray 5 times daily. A majority of the people don’t believe in Mullah’s if that was the case, then Jamaat-e-Islami or any other religious political party would have been ruling the country since 1947.

    Hindus are different from Muslims when it comes to religion, In Hinduism everything they do has something to do with religion. The music and the dancing is not just a cultural thing but its a part of the religion. in fact some of the cultural and traditional things in the Muslim culture and traditions has crept from the Hindu culture because of the co-existence for generations.

    Touching the earth (Dharti) before doing anything is a part of the Hindu religion because, it provides food for survival. Acquiring wealth is also a part of their religion, the Goddess of Wealth is Laxmi or Lachmi and is worshiped for bringing wealth and happiness. So, the more you keep Laxmi at home the more happy and prosperous you are.

    I do not want to go into the detail, but to say that in India religion is a personal matter and it comes after education etc. is wrong. Religion is everything for a Hindu as it is for a Muslim. Their rituals are different, their festivals are different and are based on faith and myth both.

    In the past, education was always under the control of a few upper caste Brahmins and the masses were not allowed to even read and write. It is a fact to which some of my friends on this blog may not agree with me. But, it is also a fact that Islam laid so much emphasis on education the first word of the first verse that was revealed to our Prophet was READ… read in the name of the Lord who created…

    I will write something on the religious page about how people have misinterpreted the teachings of Islam by saying that it was spread through the sword. So, watch for my comments on the religious page and read it with an open heart and open mind. Thanks.

  115. #116 by Sana on December 3, 2008 - 11:24 PM

    Couldnt agree more Javed. And i agree with bits of what you say Khansahab too, but i still think the cultural warped-ness does not come from having an islamic fervour in Pakistan.

    Here in England you find many muslims who follow islam to such a detailed level yet manage to excel in their careers and marry spouses of equal intellect and practise in faith. Having more of this is a good thing imo cos it shows you can do without the backward aspects of desi/arab/iranian etc culture and excel in any society you are placed in througout the world…which one should be able to do as a Muslim as Islam doesnt hold one back in anything. The interpretation of islam may possibly be a hold back in countries such as Saudi/Pak, esp when it comes to womens rights.

    Even neighbouring Iran which has more of an islamic dominance througout daily life doesnt seem blighted with the issues Pakistan does!

  116. #117 by Sweetie on December 3, 2008 - 11:47 PM

    B F, here’s one which u might’ve not heard of. U cannot apply lotion when ure fasting. I was like stop me lol

  117. #118 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 3, 2008 - 11:48 PM

    Varun

    Thanks for the video links, I never saw them before so I had to watch all the 6 parts. I have deliberately not taken the ATN package to avoid GEO TV, ARY, PTV, ZEE, and all other Indian channels for my satellite TV except for CBN which shows cricket.

    I have read many articles of Zaid Hamid on Brass Tack and on ahmedquraishi.com and this was the first time I saw his face. The woman who was the host needs to stay in a kitchen she is not fit for the job, besides she blabs so much that if you time it, probably 60% of the time she is talking and hardly gives time to the guest speakers.

    I may not agree with everything he said, but there are facts that he quoted and in bits and bobs they are correct and one cannot deny the role of the Hindu Radical Groups. All those things that I wrote about Malegaon, Samjhota train, killing of ATS chief is something which points the finger at them i.e. BJP, RRS, VHP, BajrangDal and Shiv Sena.

  118. #119 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 3, 2008 - 11:56 PM

    About sending Pakistan’s ISI chief to India.

    Whoever suggested from India must be the most clever person and we know who has agreed from Pakistan to comply with the request is the most stupid person of Pakistan.

    Could you believe what could have happened if the ISI Chief was sent to India? Forget about how he can help him in identifying the terrorists, because he has nothing to do with them. The most dangerous thing that could have happened is:

    They could have drugged him and got out every possible secret information that he has. The ISI chief has more information than the President or the PM of Pakistan i.e., including the nuclear installations and the password (which of course is not easy to use because of multiple passwords) but, he knows so much about the past, present and future plans of the country’s strategic locations and operations and sending him into a hostile environment is extremely risky and dangerous.

    India doesn’t want to send the Tendulkars and Dhoni to Pakistan and yet they expect Pakistan to send their ISI chief to India?
    The Prime Minister of Pakistan must resign with immediate effect for initially agreeing to the Indian government call for sending the ISI chief to India. What a DUDDOO Pakistani Prime Minister is.

  119. #120 by khansahab on December 4, 2008 - 12:00 AM

    GF

    Has anyone told you that you have to spit out as well during Ramzan?

  120. #121 by Sweetie on December 4, 2008 - 12:08 AM

    B F errr i hope they don’t expect that from girls!! lol

  121. #122 by khansahab on December 4, 2008 - 12:43 AM

    Mani urges Pakistan, India to play for Mumbai victims

    Mani urges Pakistan, India to play for Mumbai victims Thursday, December 04, 2008
    KARACHI: Former ICC President Ehsan Mani believes cricket should be used as a ‘bridge for peace’ between India and Pakistan to ease out tension and sour relationship between the two neighboring countries following last week’s terrorist attacks.

    “Pakistan should offer to send their team to Mumbai to play a couple of matches against the Indian cricket team and all the proceeds of those matches should go to the families of those innocent people who lost their lives in the Mumbai attacks. I believe such a gesture will help defuse the growing tension between the two countries”, Mani said in an interview on Wednesday.

    While commenting on the media reports suggesting shifting of 2011 world cup from Asia to Australia, Mani said “It would be a great loss if ICC events are shifted from Pakistan or other Asian countries and to save the world cup and champions trophy from shifting, all the co-hosts especially Pakistan and India have to join hands and show the strength of unity so that these events are not moved from Asia. This way cricket will become a binding force that will ease out tension between Pakistan and India”. Mani said that the cricket should go on in the region.

    “There have been blasts in London during Australia-England series and prior to that there used to be IRA bombings but cricket continued. If Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh join hands and insist that they can provide security to foreign teams, then there is no reason that why Champions Trophy and 2011 world cup should not be held in Pakistan and South Asia.” stressed Mani.

    There have been reports in recent days that the 2011 World Cup might be relocated from the sub-continent to Australia and New Zealand because of security apprehensions. However, Pakistan, India and the ICC have all denied any such possibility.

  122. #123 by Wasim on December 4, 2008 - 7:57 AM

    Varun:

    I respect your patriotism but to find out the truth we will have to set aside our biases,just the way you find the Raw/Mossad/CIA/RAM conspiracy theory ridiculous, we in Pakistan fail to understand that how every terrorist attack which happens in India by default is associated with
    Let/ISI, and if LeT and its sister concerns are the main terrorist organizations in the region and are directly under control of ISI then which organization is responsible for the terrorist attacks inside Pakistan and who is controlling and financing them?

  123. #124 by Wasim on December 4, 2008 - 8:09 AM

    All the mercenaries/Mujahiddin who got jobless after the fall of Taliban have found new employers in Afghanistan and they have been given a new assignment.

    Read this article

    http://rupeenews.com/2008/09/29/107-indian-consulates-in-afghanistan-spreading-terror-to-pakistan/

  124. #125 by Wasim on December 4, 2008 - 8:18 AM

    One of the Key evidence which Indian authorities are using to blame the attacks on Pakistan is the use of VOIP calls and tracing them back to Karachi.

    I am in United states and I have a Lahore telephone number, anybody can get those VOIP phones and take them anywhere in the world the call will only be traced to its server in the host country.

  125. #126 by farrah, k.raja on December 4, 2008 - 11:55 AM

    WASIM
    You are unaware about the phone calls mystry,it was revealed on the same day by DAWN I think in openion section.
    INDIAN intelligence were first very ecstatic to find several calls at least two of them made to a mobile phone on the same morning,later on tracing out the netwrok,links and numbers it was Indian President calling Shah Mahmood Quereshi ,they are more than government representatives ,they are friends you know.So it was those last minute FREAKING OUT CALLS,Hey HONEY sure ! sure you are coming?
    Promise!
    Have you boarded the palne yet?
    Is the plane still intact?
    OHH!! you are going to land.

  126. #127 by Varun Suri on December 4, 2008 - 1:50 PM

    Okay Round-Up time…

    Javed@122: – Ok Me Lord! All Points accepted! Well since it’s that time of the season when everyone is asking so many questions here and there that’s why by default I used the Question Mark many times after normal sentences in my previous posts. It was not meant to be Sarcastic but only out of pure excitement and rush to pour in my comments.

    Just like to add one thing to your comments, as an example of some real measures being taken against Hindu extremism. The Ministry of Information has banned the Website of one such branch of highly extremist Organization in India since 2005 or earlier I am not sure. The Website was called http://www.hinduunity.org but it is inaccessible now.

    Khansahab@134: – We need more such pearls of wisdom from you! It was a pleasure to read your comment but I also dis-agree with you in the same way as Javed@138 BE-KAOUZ: –

    1. The ‘Village Mentality’ you are talking about is also very well present within the many Non-Resident Indians. Infact from my experience of UK I have seen some people being more Conservative than the actual Indians living in India. For e.g. When one of my friends from UK, a Gujju went to see her Uncle for the first time in the JU-ASS-AY in New York, her Gujju Uncle took her to show Amrika and Guess What? He was showing her the Shopping Malls, Swimming Pools, Multiplexes and many other things, which are these-days quite common in India. It was funny when some BBCD’s(British Born Confused Desi’s; no offences to Sana,Sweety te Cheeky aur any BBCD!!) will ask me that Did you go to School on an Elephant when you were a Kid? I had several ‘pangas’ with BBCD during my 4 Years.

    2. As Javed has pointed, rituals like breaking a Coconut before any Work commences or small ‘Puja’ of a new Car/House/Any Material thing is a very common thing in India, infact some of the strictly Hindu rituals like the Coconut one are so commonplace that it would not be surprising if you’d see some other Religion groups following this custom. All this does not make it only a ‘personal matter’ but also a public one.

    Javed@142: – I agree with you it was absolutely a ridiculous suggestion and even more funnier was your suggestion about what the Indians could have done with the ISI chief, if at all he came to India!!!

    Wasim@146&147: – While admiring my patriotism and raising a very important point about being “Un-biased” you contradict yourself in your next post by posting a link from a Website which is nothing but a pure fantasy and Unproven Propaganda. I have read several articles on this website before and anyone with a logical mind would easily realize how much TRUTH and how much LIES it contains.

    I heard on CNN that the Captured One was not only interviewed by Indians but now also the Americans so if all this is a big farce then America is most probably siding with Indians on this one.

    “Magar Girgit kab rang badale, jaane kaun?”

  127. #128 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 4, 2008 - 3:49 PM

    Varun

    Its good to see that you not only understand others point of view but, you also accept what seems to be fair and correct. Mugaambo Khush hoa! 🙂

    Btw, that hindu unity.org is working, I just took the cursor to the link you have posted and its accessible, I see a Sardarji in red turban. Well, this kinda websites and many more from Hindus, Muslims and Jews etc., can be found on the Internet. Those are hate websites.

    Talking of Sardarji, “SatsriKaal Singh” asked his wife on his 1st wedding anniversary, ‘Jeeti tell me honestly since we got married which was the most enjoyable night for you?’ Jeeti replied, ‘the night, when you were in Delhi.’

    On your comment about questioning the lone terrorist captured alive by Indians as well as Americans, I guess CondomLisa Rice came only for that purpose! After 2 months you won’t be seeing her Ug face anymore!

    Right now, we Canadians are having a good time seeing our PM Stephen playing his broken Harp(errrr) and trying to protect his own A$$. He called an early election last month, got a few more seats and now facing a motion of no confidence vote from the opposition coalition. He is now running into the lap of Her Majesty the Governor General of Canada to shut down the parliament for Christmas and New Year and if she doesn’t then come Monday Dec. 8th he will be OUT lbw.

  128. #129 by khansahab on December 4, 2008 - 4:09 PM

    PCB Not To Punish Asif

    Karachi (PTI): The Pakistan Cricket Board has decided not to take any disciplinary action against troubled pacer Mohammad Asif, even if he is penalised by the drugs inquiry tribunal of the IPL for his alleged doping offence in the inaugural edition of the Twenty20 tournament.

    “It is like double jeopardy. You can’t punish a man twice for the same crime. If the IPL tribunal does not clear him from the doping offence obviously he is going to face a long ban and the PCB does not come into the picture,” a senior PCB official told PTI.

    He also made it clear that the Board had rejected Asif’s plea for the release of his central contract payments this year. “We have looked into his request and got legal opinion. The fact is that presently he remains suspended from all forms of cricket and until the IPL tribunal reaches a decision we can’t do anything for him,” he said.

    Asif was due to appear before the Indian Premier League tribunal on November 29 and 30, but the hearing was called off because of the terror attacks in Mumbai and the inquiry tribunal is yet to convey fresh dates to the pacer.

    Asif, playing for Delhi Daredevils, had tested positive for a banned substance during the semifinals of the IPL earlier this year

  129. #130 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 4, 2008 - 4:24 PM

    khansahab #152

    I am quoting a paragraph from the news you have posted: “It is like double jeopardy. You can’t punish a man twice for the same crime. If the IPL tribunal does not clear him from the doping offence obviously he is going to face a long ban and the PCB does not come into the picture, a senior PCB official told PTI.”

    WTF? Whether the IPL tribunal clears him or not YOU (the PCB) also have a justice system and because he is a Pakistani, you ban him for life. BAKAOZ he has violated the law not once but, twice. Letting him go off the hook is setting a bad precedent. Whether he is or, he was a good bowler has nothing to do with breaking the rules. He deserves a life ban, c’est ca.

    You don’t penalize an addict and you give him more needles to stay clean is not a cure but an encouragement to remain a druggie.

    I strongly protest against this lenient action from the PCB. They should not think about Asif only, there is a whole lot of young cricketers in the country who are eager to fly, the PCB must think about their future.

  130. #131 by Abdul on December 4, 2008 - 4:50 PM

    Well Engalnd have given the Indian series the go ahead. Good news for Indian cricket and the country’s economy as they look to rebuild after the great loss of the Mumbai suicide attacks.

    Well strengthened teams have been announced by the two teams and the schedules and venues have been adjusted so the series should be lively and one to watch.

    My prediction will lie on a 1-1 result as I feel both teams are equally as capable at test natch level. Should be an interesting series and one to watch.

    Unbelievable that young county leg spinner Adil Rashid hasn’t been included.

  131. #132 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 4, 2008 - 5:10 PM

    Finally Stephen Harper our PM, has convinced the Governor General of Canada to suspend the Parliament till January 27, 2009 and she did. Oh, what a big time loser he is.

    Stephane Dion the leader of the Liberals leading the coalition said: “The Harper Conservatives have lost the confidence of the majority of members of the House of Commons. In our democracy, in our parliamentary system, in our constitution this means that they have lost the right to govern.”

    How true, and he went straight into the lap of the GG like a baby crying and saying Momeee Help me puleez.

  132. #133 by Wasim on December 4, 2008 - 5:36 PM

    Varun:

    I do not agree with all the articles on that site and except for the number of Indian consulates this article is based on facts and ground reality.

    It is a fact that Baloch dissidents are being trained and funded in Afghanistan, Mir Balaach Marri was traveling with his whole convoy of militants when he got ambushed and killed in Afghanistan. How come he was allowed to roam openly with his military convoy in Afghanistan, Brahmadagh Bugti is still in Afghanistan.

    There have been countless intelligence reports that Moulvi Fazal Ullah group of Taliban and Bait Ullah Mehsood group are receiving funds,training and weapons from Afghanistan, Baitullah is still in Afghanistan.

    If you analyze there activities they are only working to the advantage of the allied forces and there actions are destabilizing Pakistan, the advanced weapons and communication systems which they possess where did they received it from even Pak army don’t possess such advanced equipment.
    They are paying 15000/month salary to their militia men where they are getting the money from? Fake Pakistani currency is being printed in Afghanistan and is being used to pay out these mercenaries these are official intelligence reports and have been discussed at the highest level in Pakistan.

    Its not a fantasy it’s a ground reality that most of these mercenaries are using religion as a guise in reality they are just thugs who had no economic future,they have sold their services in the past to the highest bidder and are still doing the same, militancy is the sole skill they possess they know no other occupation.

    It will also be a fantasy to believe that these guys are fighting a religious war,it’s not a war of ideology or religion anymore although the west wants to make it look like one, it is a war about regional hegemony and strategic interests.

    They have blown Marriott hotel in the month of Ramadan while people were doing Iftaar,they have done countless attacks on different mosques, attacks Outside stadiums,attacks outside shopping malls religious organizations do not operate like this against their own people. They have nothing to gain unless somebody is paying them to do this job.

    Taliban have been in Pakistan since many years why they didn’t burned girl schools and video shops back then?

    The only reason I posted that article because nobody talks about the terrorism against Pakistan it goes unnoticed as it never happened and just the way you find it ridiculous to believe that Raw/Mossad were behind Mumbai attack we find it hard to believe that these organizations are directly under control of ISI and are killing their own countrymen in the name of a holy war.

  133. #134 by Wasim on December 4, 2008 - 7:02 PM

    Farrah

    I wasn’t aware of that report, but first it was reported that the attackers called from their satellite phones to somebody in Karachi, then they changed the story that they received several phone calls from a VOIP phone from Pakistan on their cell phones which has been traced to a computer in lahore.

    VOIP phones are virtually untraceable, there encryption is very complex and even if somebody is able to decode the encryption all they will get is the IP address of the computer from which the call is being made, you can conceal your IP address by just adding a plugin to your browser which are available free over the internet.

  134. #135 by khansahab on December 4, 2008 - 8:52 PM

    Yes, the Taliban has been operating for decades. One wonders why they have only been operating in this bizarre fashion since the past 7/8 years only.

    Similarly Muslims have existed for over 1400 years and one wonders why it is only since the past 7/8 years that the term “terrorism” is being associated with Muslims. The IRA were Christians and similarly many terrorists in India and Sri Lanka are Hindus and Buddhists, yet “terrorism” is not associated with those religions.

    Perhaps there is a logical explanation that Muslims triggered this war on terror when 9/11 happened. This led America to invade Afghanistan and this had a part in the reason why America invaded Iraq (or so the media tells us). So these invasions have made Muslims angry because of the loss of life and widespread destruction, and hence they have become terrorists who believe they are fighting a holy war. Even if this is the real truth behind why all this mindless terrorism is happening, a reasonable person cannot support the stance of these terrorists because you can’t fight fire with fire and two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Yet this “somewhat logical” point of view is not what the media informs us of (by logical I mean, something that tells us why the terrorists may be fighting a “religious war”, I don’t mean they have a motive, because there is no good motive or excuse to take an innocent life). The media tells us that Muslims are killing people of other faiths because they hate everyone else and because their holy book instructs them to do that. Another reason the media gives us is that Muslims are doing this to spread Islam by the sword.

    How strange that these people who are supposedly living in caves in Afghanistan and Pakistan are planning attacks all over the world. I mean, if they are in these caves which is why the media tells us they have not been eliminated yet, how can they have access to computers, communication devices, technology and just how are they able to plan and conduct attacks from thousands of miles away?

    Afghanistan has a pro American government and even Pakistan has a pro American government to some degree. So this should automatically disqualify the idea that the “state” is sponsoring these terrorists. Pakistan government would not be so stupid to sponsor terrorists giving America an excuse to operate within Pakistan’s territory and kill innocent people with spy drones and missiles.

  135. #136 by khansahab on December 4, 2008 - 9:18 PM

    Filling the Big Empty

    Rahul Bose

    December 04, 2008

    (Rahul Bose is a Bollywood actor.)

    Standing at Anti-Terrorism Squad Chief Hemant Karkare’s funeral, I was struck by the people who had gathered to pay homage to one of the most upright, secular and committed officers of the Mumbai police. Politicians, college students, leaders of the Muslim community, activists, and other members of the police. And then the questions. Why does it take such an immense tragedy to unite us? Why does this sentiment snuff out seconds after the occasion? What is it in our DNA that allows leaders to walk into our rooms, rape us, leave and come back again when the need arises?

    This is the greatest psychological blow that the city has received. People say the country, but I disagree. The fall of the Babri Masjid and the Gujarat riots have left deeper wounds. But as far as Bombay is concerned, 60 hours of television have brought the beginning, middle and end of this tragedy into our living rooms. We have seen guns, shoot-outs, murders, fires, commandos, traumatised survivors and destruction of every kind. And so have our children. My belief still remains that the practical effect of the attacks will be less than the effect that the 1993 and 2006 bombings had on the common Bombayite. Then it was a direct connection to fear: “Should I go back to work in Zaveri Bazaar? “Should I send my children on the trains tomorrow?” Now those fears are more general — anything can happen in this city, be careful. The psyche of Bombay will take a generation to recover.

    The success of a terror attack is determined by our response to it. A violent and irrational response means the terrorists have succeeded. A constructive, passionate, unflagging response that results in a safer, better life for Bombayites and for Indians, and we have won the battle. So what is constructive? One million citizens peacefully assembled for the day outside Mantralaya? The crowd would stretch from the sea near the Air India building to Oval Maidan. One demand. Ninety days for the Government of India to come up with an anti-terror plan. A plan that looks at deterrence and preparedness. Ninety days. We overlook for now your neglect of the city. Its floods, its traffic, its filth, its pollution. Just deliver to us a world-standard anti-terrorism plan.

    Pakistani terrorists do not equal the Pakistan State. This is not the time to rake up old terrorism/infiltration issues with Pakistan. Let us judge the facts coldly and solely on this attack. If the link goes back to State-sponsored terrorism, then follow all the diplomatic, international and trade sanctions you want. But if there is no incontrovertible link to the Pakistani government then stop Pak-bashing. Understand that that country is fighting a war within — between moderates and extremists, much like parts of this country are too. Remember that the Pakistan President lost his wife to a terror attack planned and executed by Pakistanis.

    Indians have to learn from our security forces: the police, the marine commandos, the army and the National Security Guards (NSG). We have to learn to do our duty without the slightest complaint. We have to learn to make sacrifices, of food, sleep, even survival. Listen to how many survivors who tell the tale of an NSG commando shepherding them safely out of the buildings with one laconic sentence of reassurance: “Don’t worry. Nothing will happen to you. If a terrorist fires, I will take the bullet.” We have to learn that the reward for saving countless lives is just that. And half a cup of tea in a tiny white plastic cup that I saw these men joyfully sip at 8.20 am outside the Taj on Saturday morning.

    The one square mile that makes up the tourist district of Bombay encompasses the area of my sports-filled childhood, my film-and-girlfriend filled teenage years, my theatre-and-advertising working years up to now. Buying cassettes at Rhythm House. Eating fish’n’chips at Wayside Inn. Performing on stage at the National Centre for the Performing Arts. Getting drunk at Leopolds. Wooing girls at the Taj’s Sea Lounge. Racing cars through Lion’s Gate at night. Rugby at the Bombay Gym. My first film’s (English, August ) premiere was at Regal Cinema. A red carpet went from the road to the hall. My debut directorial venture’s tickets sold at Sterling (‘10 pm crème-de-la-crème show’) for Rs 500.

    And then the dome of the Taj burning. A dome I have walked the inside of and have marvelled at its architecture. Burning, burning. Shots, blasts, chatter of guns, explosions. More burning. Shouts, screams, tears, silence. A big hole in the one square mile fabric of my Bombay. A big hole in the heart of India. Love, justice, hard work and memory will repair it. They have to.

  136. #137 by newguy30 on December 4, 2008 - 9:25 PM

    Khansahab, Javed, el al,

    Long time reader of your blog, first time poster. I am of Indian origin, now American, but I still follow cricket. I like the way you guys keep the discussion civilized even when discussing issues as contentions as Indo-Pak politics and religion, very hard to do this.

    You ask in #158:

    Similarly Muslims have existed for over 1400 years and one wonders why it is only since the past 7/8 years that the term “terrorism” is being associated with Muslims. The IRA were Christians and similarly many terrorists in India and Sri Lanka are Hindus and Buddhists, yet “terrorism” is not associated with those religions.

    I think one explanation is that other extremists that you mentioned do not cross the boundaries of national/regional interests to go over elsewhere and blow up innocent people who are not in their religion. Case in point 9/11 was not based on any local grievances, but some ideology and possibly vengeance for alleged U.S atrocities against Muslims elsewhere in the world. Similarly if the Mumbai attacks where based on Kashmir issue then why blow up westerners and jews and attack luxuary hotels, why didn’t they carry out the attack in Kashmir?

    I have a link to an article from National Review along similar lines. See here.

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjU0YjJhN2NiYzgxZmFlODUxZTViODM4MzkyOGZhNzg=

    Some excerpts from it:

    The Times of India instructed its readers: “Terrorists have no religion.” That’s a lovely sentiment but it bears no relationship to reality. In Mumbai — as in London, Madrid, Bali, New York, Jerusalem and so many other places — the slaughter was carried out by men who regarded themselves as jihadis, holy warriors, doing Allah’s will. Aijaz Zaka Syed, a columnist for the Dubai-based Khaleej Times, faces this fact: “How many innocents have to die in the name of Islam,” he asked, “before Muslim leaders and countries take effective action to deal with the nuts, who are out to destroy us all with their nihilistic cult?”

    On American television news programs, experts said the Mumbai attacks stemmed from the dispute over Kashmir. Except for the torture and murders carried out at the Jewish community center — those were said to be linked to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Americans, Canadians, Europeans, and Japanese were presumably shot dead in response to a variety of other grievances.

    But it is instructive that the terrorists in Mumbai did not take hostages as bargaining chips. Their mission was mass murder, not a new round of negotiations. The goal of militant jihadis is not dialogue; it’s the defeat of their enemies, including Hindus, Jews, Christians and any Muslims who disobey them or get in the way. In other words: This war is not, at base, about grievances, plentiful as those may be in the Muslim world. And addressing grievances will not end the war.

  137. #138 by khansahab on December 4, 2008 - 10:23 PM

    New PCB set-up to revive ‘Pakistan Domestic Cricket’ : Javed Miandad

    Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) has decided to revive the domestic cricket by strengthening the departmental cricket and ruling out the ongoing system which is based on association cricket.

    The newly appointed Director General of Pakistan Cricket Board, Javed Miandad believes “We had a glittering past in the game from 1983-97 after which we followed a decline as the previous regimes of PCB made a lot of experiments to ruin domestic cricket and departments interest gradually faded away to remain associated with the game”

    “My utmost effort will be to revive domestic cricket which has been destroyed in past seven years due to unwise steps taken by previous regimes of PCB”, he told a news conference at Gadaffi Stadium Lahore.

    “The need to make all out efforts to address the problems cricket was facing at grass roots level and said in the past needed efforts were not made to keep involved the departments, banks and business houses in the game[domestic cricket) which resulted in overall destruction of the game,” Miandad said.

    “Besides we also need to concentrate on associations and clubs cricket and in my opinion they should be given the chance to organise cricket at their respective districts and PCB should concentrate to help them and to monitor them under a systemised programme”, he added.

    He further said efforts would be made to have ample domestic cricket by modifying the existing tournament programme so that they should play more cricket to expose apprising cricketers to high quality game.
    “I want to see associations and clubs in a better role and we will be doing our best to keep them along by having more teams from provinces under a formula because big cities like Lahore and Karachi needs more representation in domestic cricket “, he added.

    “Each team from Lahore, Karachi whereas by merging Sialkot, Faisalabad, Multan and various association of Punjab each team will be ordered likewise from other provinces[Sindh, Baluchistan and Federal Area] each team will be organized by merging association from every province.”

    “Despite, PCB have a big strength of coaches and we will be deputing them to coach youth in far flung areas and this coaching will be provided free of cost the way it is being done at Karachi but we[Miandad and Amir Sohail] would also act as coach and if needed, he will go to the streets of Pakistan and schools to give tips to the youth to take up cricket as a sport,” Miandad stressed.

  138. #139 by Wasim on December 4, 2008 - 10:25 PM

    To further prove my point I present the back grounds of Abdullah and Bait Ullah Mehsud.

    Abdullah Mehsud

    During the opening days of Operation enduring freedom Abdullah was fighting against the US forces and against the Northern alliance in
    Dec 2001 he surrendered to Warlord Rasheed Dostum and was sent to Guantanamo bay prison.

    After 25 months he was strangely released from the prison along with thirty other militants all of them returned to the battlefield which was later on admitted by Pentagon,he was fitted with a prosthetic leg while he was at Guantanamo. Why renowned militants were released from Guantanamo nobody has any explanation for it.

    After his release, Mehsud immediately begin rebuilding his Taliban cadre. He commanded a force of up to 5,000 Taliban fighters.

    In Waziristan, Mehsud was believed to be behind the kidnapping of two Chinese engineers from the building of the Gomal Zam Dam, which left one hostage dead during a botched rescue attempt. He was also alleged to have been behind an attack on Pakistan’s Interior Minister Aftab Ahmad Sherpao that killed 31 people.

    His surprise release along with other militants from Guantanamo and later carrying on attacks against Pakistan’s establishment is a clear indication of which side he was working for and also substantiates the point I made in my previous post.

    On July 24, 2007, Mehsud was at a house with other militants in Zhob, Balochistan. A team of law enforcement agencies conducted a raid on the house where he was staying. Mehsud killed himself by detonating a hand grenade. During the raid, several other militants were killed and his brothers, Abdul Rahman Mehsud and Muhammad Azam, were captured along with a local Taliban leader.

    Bait ullah Mehsud was a clansman of Abdullah Mehsud some also say that he was his real brother,Baitullah Mehsud hails from the South Waziristan Agency and never received schooling nor attended a madrassa. He refuses to be photographed in adherence with his religious beliefs.[4]

    Mehsud entered into a ceasefire with Pakistani authorities on February 8, 2005.[5][6][7] Mehsud was offered US$20 million for his cooperation in the ceasefire.[8] Some Taliban leaders had claimed they needed the money because they owed al Qaeda money, and couldn’t disengage from hostilities unless the debt was repaid. Mehsud however told Pakistani authorities that they should use his share of the pay-out to “compensate families who had suffered during the military operation”.

    Preliminary investigations concerning the September 2007 bombings in Rawalpindi note that Mehsud is the primary suspect behind the attacks.[9] A December 18, 2005 report stated that Baitullah Mehsud, Abdullah Mehsud and Yaldeshev were the subject of a man-hunt.[10] Authorities said they believed that the militants were short of ammunition and would be captured soon.

    A March 10, 2006 report asserts that Mehsud collects a kind of tax in Waziristan.[11] The report quotes an official in the Northwest Frontier Constabulary:

    Baitullah’s lashkar (army) is very organised. He has divided it into various units and assigned particular tasks to each unit. One of the units been tasked to kill people who are pro-government and pro-US and support the US occupation of Afghanistan. The last person to be killed was Malik Arsallah Khan, chief of the Khuniakhel Wazir tribe, who was killed on February 22 in Wana (in South Waziristan).

    On 4th of August, 2008 Pakistani officials formally asked why the CIA did not act when provided with information on Baitullah Mehsud’s exact location, and implied that the US was backing terrorist groups within Pakistan for it’s own ends. “One such precise piece of information was made available to the CIA on May 24 (2008) when Baitullah Mehsud drove to a remote South Waziristan mountain post in his Toyota Land Cruiser to address the press and returned back to his safe abode. The United States military has the capacity to direct a missile to a precise location at very short notice as it has done close to 20 times in the last few years to hit al-Qaeda targets inside Pakistan.”

    The senior officials from the Pakistani military, intelligence services and army “have long been intrigued by the presence of highly encrypted communications gear with Baitullah Mehsud. This communication gear enables him to collect real-time information on Pakistani troop movement from an unidentified foreign source without being intercepted by Pakistani intelligence.”

    On December 28, 2007 the Pakistan government claimed that it had strong evidence regarding Baitullah Mehsud as the man behind the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto on December 27, 2007. The Pakistani government released a transcript it asserted was from a conversation between Baitullah Mehsud and Maulvi Sahib (literally “Mr. Cleric”). According to the transcript Maulvi Sahib claimed credit for the attack, Baitullah Mehsud asked who carried it out, and was told, “There were Saeed, the second was Badarwala Bilal and Ikramullah was also there.

    CNN reported the death of Bait Ullah back in September this year of Kidney failure something which was denied by Taliban but he hasn’t been heard of ever since, may be he is enjoying the millions he made on some exotic Island.

    The above detail clearly shows who they were working for and who has been their target.

  139. #140 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 5, 2008 - 4:03 AM

    Newguy30 ref. #160

    Welcome to the blog.

    Before going any further to answer your questions, I will quote your long sentence here: “I think one explanation is that other extremists that you mentioned do not cross the boundaries of national/regional interests to go over elsewhere and blow up innocent people who are not in their religion.”

    You are wrong or, you are not aware of the facts and supported the IRA and Tamil Tigers action only to make a point, which is very weak, because it reflects ignorance.

    The IRA have roots in Northern Ireland – You said, Kashmiris should carry out their attacks in Kashmir only – based on your theory and your perception, the IRA should have carried out their attacks in Northern Ireland only, did they? NO, they didn’t and, they repeatedly attacked the Republic of Ireland and the UK. They did not spare anyone based on colour, caste, creed, their bombing were meant to terrorize people for over two decades and killed thousands of people only to get their demands met.

    The Tamil Tigers did not restrict themselves to Sri Lanka only they attacked on Indian soil many, many times. Are you not aware that Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated by a Tamil Tiger lady suicide bomber? Or was she a member of Al-Qaida?

    If India considers Kashmir as a State of India then, India should deal with the Kashmiri’s problems rather than blaming Pakistan for every blast that takes place in India.

    This kinda terrorism is carried out by a certain group of people with a certain ideology and people condemn them as terrorists. Now, look at the nations who terrorize other nations. Israel, apart from killing Palestinians and Jordanians goes to Lebanon, Syria and bomb every now and then.

    America goes to Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, don’t forget Vietnam, Korea, Panama, Cuba, El Salvador and now Pakistan. Who has given them this Carte Blanche or license to kill?

    So my dear friend get your facts right before you point fingers at Pakistan.

    The 9/11 theory is still a conspiracy theory and the world will never know the truth i.e., who was behind it? Just like who shot Kennedy and, how Marilyn Monroe or Elvis Presley died? Or, who was behind Zia ul Haq’s death?

    Just 3 days ago, Bush has admitted that his intelligence gave him wrong information on WMD hence he attacked Iraq and considers it as his biggest mistake. Read comment number# 32 and also check out the link.

    Likewise, the Indian intelligence keep giving different version of this Mumbai attack because they are unable to concoct a viable, verifiable and acceptable theory. It works wonders with ignorant masses when they show a Bollywood movie with such an script, but in real world people are not naive.

    By saying all this I am not denying that there are no terrorists in Pakistan. Yes, they are and they kill own fellow Muslims, bomb their own mosques and kidnap their own people. Do you think we give them SHABASHI? Do we pat them on their back and say well done?

    In fact when Musharraf’s government caught the terrorists who were not Pakistani citizens and handed them over to the USA, the opposition and the religious parties in Pakistan called Musharraf a traitor. Why did the Indian, American or any other government who don’t waste a second in blaming Pakistan for harbouring terrorists and breeding terrorism not say thank you Musharraf for the good work?

    When Musharraf besieged the Lal Masjid and captured the terrorists and jailed them, that Paindoo Chief Justice Chaudhary released all of them to prove his judicial powers and yet America has given him a Medal of Hypocrisy. This was one of biggest jokes of the century.

    And, finally thank you for saying: “I like the way you guys keep the discussion civilized even when discussing issues as contentions as Indo-Pak politics and religion, very hard to do this.” Yes, we try to do that and we expect everyone else to respect others in a civil way.

  140. #141 by newguy30 on December 5, 2008 - 5:27 AM

    Javed,

    I am aware of the IRA, granted they bombed UK and Ireland, not just Northern Ireland, this is an exception. Your LTTE argument is a straw man, they went after Rajiv Gandhi because he meddled in their affairs by sending a peace keeping force to SL. However these are not exactly same as attacks conducted by Jihadis in almost every major part of the world in recent years, including India, Pakistan, US, UK, Indonesia, Spain, Kenya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc, etc. Their war is against anyone who opposes their ideology. This is why there is reason to believe that by addressing purported problems this war will go away, they will always find another reason.

    Regarding Kashmir, I don’t know what the problem is to begin with, Kashmir is part of India, and why should they give it up, is it just because they are a muslim majority state that they should join Pakistan or go separate? Pakistan’s failure as a state is a good example of what happens when you create a nation separately for a specific religion, and not for everyone. So I think the solution that Pakistan and the Pakistan supported militants want for Kashmir is not feasible.

    That said, Indians aren’t without fault either, India has failed to address the development of Kashmir, this is one problem they must address, sadly same is true for many other states in India such as Assam, Sikkim, Nagaland, etc.

    About 9/11, sorry, I don’t subscribe to conspiracy theories, so you won’t even get any argument from me, it’s there for everyone to see and no question about who is responsible.

    Finally, I am not saying the state of Pakistan is behind all this, and I am not supporting Indian media, hardly pay attention to any of them, I think the whole affair can be conducted more professionally, instead of pointing fingers at the first opportunity. If LeT or another group based on Pakistan is responsible then I think they should present the evidence then go after them decisively and swiftly. However, India is known to a soft state, so I don’t really expect anything other than finger pointing and chest thumping.

  141. #142 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 5, 2008 - 9:18 AM

    newguy30

    Please don’t do this: ‘heads I win, tails you loose’. You cannot say IRA is an exception and Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination by the LTTE suicide bomber is also an exception and everyone else is a JIHADI.

    First of all you need to correct your perception about the highly publicized buzz word ‘Jihad’, which you are repeatedly using like the Western media. They have made it look like a taboo. Jihad’s literal meaning is ‘struggle’ and it is used in many ways, you struggle to improve yourself, your life, your conscience and your being etc. And one of the meanings of Jihad is ‘being at war with’ and that is again from within yourself. And a Holy war is the last thing that is referred to as Jihad. That would be a very long discussion and I’d leave it for another time.

    Indonesia, Bangladesh, Yemen or KSA if they have extremists within their country, what has that got to do with Pakistan? In fact, the US and KSA have funded and trained various groups and elements and used them for their own benefit such as to fight against the former USSR.

    They have trained the mercenaries and they are from all the countries, if you remember one was a white American and another was a white Australian and I am not talking about Britisher because then people will say they were of Pakistani origin. Some of them are from Bosnia, Chechnya, Somalia etc. etc.

    They are not Jihadis only the media has labeled them like that they are mercenaries. Besides, right now instead of addressing the Mumbai incident you are diverting this whole issue towards not only Pakistan but against Muslims. When people try to expose the Hindu terrorism or Hinduvta expansionism you don’t want to hear that and talk about secularism. That is why I said, its a superficial mask of secularism.

    In India its not just the Muslims of Kashmir who are not happy with India but there are various other states like, Assam, Orrisa, Andhra, Telengana, Tamils etc., and have constantly been fighting against the government like, Nagaland, Nexalites etc. And you are acknowledging that India has failed to address the progress in these states. There is a difference between failing to your own people and failed to address, you prefer to say it that way.

    And in my previous comments I am not sure if you have read it, I have said Pakistan should not be bothered about Kashmir on the basis of Muslim majority or, support the Arab World blindly just because they are Muslim countries. So, I am least concerned about the fate of Kashmir. Thats why I said, If India considers Kashmir as their State, they must deal with them.

    You say that; “Pakistan’s failure as a state is a good example of what happens when you create a nation separately for a specific religion, and not for everyone.”

    This is something you need to discuss at length about the two nation theory and the division of India and Pakistan and who is responsible for this? I won’t be able to crystallize or summarize in one comment.

    But, your above comment appears to be in retaliation towards my comment #72 above where I wrote, “it is a country that has failed to her own people, let alone by taken as a model of democracy to be followed by the rest of the world.”

    And that was in the context of the superficial mask of secularism, where as the previous BJP government and the current government are under total control of the religious fanatics. You must read the comment #72 if you haven’t read and make an introspection yourself rather than making a counter retort towards me.

    And you don’t have to be sorry for not agreeing with me about the 911 conspiracy theory because, I am not agreeing with you or those who claim how it happened and who did that? The worst of all the things is, reportedly those who have done are all Arabs from the KSA, Egypt and the UAE and for the last 7 years the US is bombing Afghanistan and hundreds and thousands of innocent people have died in that process. Which they think is a very great thing to serve humanity and mankind.

    You say you don’t believe in the media, but you actually do. Like, the media was totally behind Bush about WMD in Iraq, and 3 days ago he has admitted that he was wrong, so may be 50 years later the world will discover who was behind the 911 bombings.

    And, for your info its not just Pakistan alone there is another country called Israel that has been created forcefully in the name of religion and they have the power and muscle to expand their territories and they have full support and backing from the USA.

    To please them the rest of the world is buttering their backside. Whereas, Pakistan for no rhyme or reason is against them only to support the Arabs. They should have adopted a diplomatic stance and neutral attitude rather than showing their hatred towards Israel and there is no need to offer blind support towards the Arab World because, they don’t give a damn to Pakistan.

    Unfortunately the poor leadership of Pakistan is to be blamed for bending over backwards. Instead of any benefit they have suffered more damage by supporting the Arabs and for the Kashmir issue.

    It is in the greater interest of Pakistan to redesign their foreign policy and see what is better for the people of Pakistan rather than what is better for the Kashmiris or the Arabs.

    There is an expression in Urdu: “Ya Shaikh apni, apni Dekh.” Thats what the Arabs do, they don’t care about others except for themselves, so why should Pakistan worry so much about them?

  142. #143 by Awas on December 5, 2008 - 1:27 PM

    Wasim

    I thought you used to like my jokes. Do you not visit V-talk?

  143. #144 by Wasim on December 5, 2008 - 2:07 PM

    Awas

    I love your jokes and I have read a few of them on V-talk.

  144. #145 by Mohamed Anfaal on December 5, 2008 - 3:13 PM

    BLAST IN PESHAWAR,

    80 reported injured,

    ISLAMIC TERRORISM?????????

    Moderator adds:

    The above news is genuine about the blast in Peshawar here is the link:
    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=61819

    Reportedly 20 people have died and 80 injured. No one is pointing fingers at anyone but, is this a retort?

  145. #146 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 5, 2008 - 3:26 PM

    “War breaks out among intelligence agencies”

    MUMBAI, Dec 4: India’s intelligence agencies have descended into “civil war” following the Mumbai attacks that exposed the country’s vulnerability to terrorism, analysts and experts say.

    The country’s various security bodies have long refused to communicate and now blame each other for failing to act on information that could have thwarted the terror strikes, they said.

    A week after the attacks, and amid mounting public anger, reports are emerging that intelligence agencies knew that India’s financial capital may be targeted by extremists.

    India has more than a dozen intelligence agencies that decline to pool information or answer to a central command, said Wilson John, senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation think tank in New Delhi. The agencies range from the National Security Council Secretariat, headed by a political appointee answerable to the prime minister, down to the military and police.

    John said their “reluctance, and even refusal, to share information” that could prevent attacks “sends a message to terrorists that they can breach Indian security, that they can come in here and do anything”. “Ultimately the buck stops nowhere,” he added.

    Mumbai is the hub of India’s western naval command and situated near offshore oil rigs and the country’s nuclear installations, he said. “I keep asking who was heading the operation to flush out the terrorists. There was not a single man in charge,” he said.

    “The police, paramilitary personnel, firefighters, the coastguard, all were operating in isolation. There was no one in charge which is why 10 guys were able to hold off hundreds of men deployed from the security forces.”

    Newspapers said the government’s external intelligence unit, the Research and Analysis Wing, intercepted phone calls as recently as November 18 about plans for assaults on Mumbai hotels.

    The calls specifically referred to the luxury Taj Mahal hotel, one of last week’s targets, but the information was not disseminated, the Hindustan Times said.

    India’s approach to intelligence was comparable with that in the US before the “9/11” attacks, said a foreign intelligence specialist, referring to the lack of coordination among Washington’s internal and external

    Source agencies. — AFP.

  146. #147 by Wasim on December 5, 2008 - 4:06 PM

    Mohammad Anfaal:

    The blast in Peshawar will go unnoticed nobody will point fingers on anybody the world is not interested in finding out who is behind the attacks in Pakistan these attacks like in the past will be very conveniently attributed to some unknown organization of whom you have never heard of before, the allied forces in Afghanistan will continue to hire Afghan thugs and mercenaries, label them with a Jihadi name and use them to destabilize Pakistan it’s a fool proof strategy killing two birds with one stone, their objective of maligning Islam will be achieved and they will also be able to destabilize Pakistan and declare it the most dangerous place on the planet.

  147. #148 by Varun Suri on December 5, 2008 - 4:50 PM

    Javed@164, 169

    Even though your reply is not intended for me, but there are certain things mentioned in your post on which I would like to elaborate a bit more and express my views: –

    Because of reasons you’ve mentioned I prefer to use the term ‘Islamic Terrorist/Extremist’ than ‘Jehadi’.

    1. You ask

    “Indonesia, Bangladesh, Yemen or KSA if they have extremists within their country, what has that got to do with Pakistan? “

    Pakistan is related to these countries in the same way as it shares it’s unwarranted hatred and resentment towards Jews and Israel. As it is, One cannot be depended on Arabs (Although God has given them enough Oil to last for at least 100 more Years) for aid or any kind of help forever then What has Pakistan gained by siding with the Arab Countries just for the heck of Opposing anything Israel does?

    There is a very thin line between being an Extremist or a Freedom-fighter/Separatist/Revolutionary so while most of the Indians could see the violence in Kashmir as the work of Terrorists/Extremists from across the Border it could be that most of the fighters are local Kashmiris and fighting for their ‘Azaadi’ and this same reason could be used in justification of any Islamic Extremist whether he is a Kurdish rebel or a Chechan rebel or for that matter any local groups within Arab countries who see their governments pandering to the West/U.S. Now the main thing here is to be able to de-alienate a Separatist from an Extremist, to be able to differentiate between the two, to be able to judge who is willing to talk and who is only willing to be eliminated/eradicated for the betterment of the whole Society and Region.

    One has to agree with the in-numerable instances when an Extremist/Terrorist has cited some verses of the Holy Quran or the fact that he is only doing his duty through his devotion to follow the right path as prescribed by his Spiritual Master’s. The way Islam is connected to a form of extremism no other Religion is and that is something which all of you intelligent people present on this forum should agree with me. LTTE, IRA, FARC, Maoists, Assamese Bodos and Ulfa’s, Nagaland separatists and the Spanish separatist movement are the names of some other extremist groups one can instantly think of and none of them have any religious connection to them except probably IRA.
    So, to conclude, It is in this regard also that, all the countries you mentioned in your comment and to a certain extent India, are related to each other

    2. I pointed before as well that you are exaggerating the different kinds of problems India has. I was not aware that there is somebody in Orissa demanding a separate country? Telengana is a part of Andhra Pradesh and just like Bavaria in Germany or Catalan in Spain, Quebec in Canada and Tamil Nadu in India they like to keep a part of their culture, identity and heritage separate from the whole Country. The Tamils of India have never went to such an extent to demand a separate Country, most of them whom I know are not any less Proud to be an Indian compared to other groups.

    3. You have asked in your previous post that “Why did the Indian, American or any other government who don’t waste a second in blaming Pakistan for harbouring terrorists and breeding terrorism not say thank you Musharraf for the good work?

    I can’t speak for the Americans but tell me, with no dis-respect to Musharraf who it seems is the most popular choice of a leader for many Pakistanis right now, How could the Indians thank Musharraf or show any kind of gratitude towards him after the Kargil mis-adventure? I hope you agree with me on this that it was a bad strategic move with no gains on any side.

    Most of the ‘capturing’ what Musharraf did was to please his American master’s and not to please any of the Indians. Mahir Ali best explains my point in the following article: –

    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/mahir.htm

    I quote from the same: –

    “If Zardari’s interest in improving relations with India is genuine, as it seems to be, then the least his government could do is make a determined effort to eradicate all training camps and recruiting madressahs associated with the Lashkar and Jaish — something that Pervez Musharraf failed to do when he formally banned the two jihadi groups six years ago. This could be seen as a favour to India, but it would be an even bigger boon for Pakistan. “

    4. You say that the Tamil tigers have attacked Indian Territory many, many times. According to what I know, I know of only one such attack, in which Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated, there was only a time-period when my father was also supposed to go-to Srilanka to join the IPKF (Indian Peace Keeping Force) although he did not go due to some other reasons but the whole World knows the price we paid for that mis-adventure. I have never heard the Indian Tamils causing any non-violence or showing any aggression to demand a separate state and I urge anyone with any kind of mis-information to gauge the facts in the right way.

    You talk about Tamil problem and LTTE but it’s worth paying attention to the fact that LTTE is basically Tamil that is mostly Hindu and they are basically fighting the majority Sinhalese that is Buddhist! Why is this issue never seen as a Hindu-Buddhist problem but more of a Tamil v/s Sinhalese problem?

    5. You said that
    “where as the previous BJP government and the current government are under total control of the religious fanatics”

    To a certain extent we can say that about the previous BJP government but the current government? Do you have any idea how many people within India oppose the Congress elected Government based on only this issue? If you think the current Indian government is totally into the hands of Hindu Fanatics then how can you explain the following:-

    a)Mohammed Afzal the main accused for the Indian Parliament Attacks and for whom the Supreme Court has also ordered death by hanging is still alive and already become a Hero for many Kashmiri separatists. One could only imagine what would have happened to him if such attacks would have occurred in some other country where an Extremist Totalitarian regime is incharge like KSA, Iran or China.
    b)The probe and investigation in the recent Malegaon blasts caused by some Hindu Extremists. It was not by accident that this News leaked into the Media and there was and still is a concious effort by the Judiciary to bring the responsible to the court.

    These are just 2 issues (which people here would know of) I will highlight here but there are loads of other domestic issues for which the Congress Party is basically seen as a ‘Muslim/minority appeasing party’ and if your assertion was true then Congress would not have this image in India.

    Omer@168
    6. As far as Kashmir is concerned, it has become such a complex issue that the most practical and easiest of the solutions in my eyes is the same what probably theossa has said before. India gets to keep its part and Pakistan theirs with a special status given to the Area in between administered by both the Governments. It’s high time we should move on from this issue. Anybody thinking of ‘Azaadi’ or Kashmir as a separate independent Country is only speaking out of Emotions and not being practical. The Indian Government cannot set a precedent (for others) 60 Years after independence for any sort of ethnic group or community to accede to their demands of a separate homeland. Fighting over Kashmir is neither beneficial to Pakistan nor to India and the earlier people realize this the better it is for the region. . People who feel that all the Indians have done in Kashmir is Genocide should look again at the facts without any ‘Propaganda’ and consider the following: –

    1.The Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir holds a special status under the Indian Constitution which allows any Kashmiri to settle and buy property anywhere in India whereas no Indian outside J&K can do that in J&K. For 60 Years people have taken maximum advantage of this Rule and now it is not only impossible but also just impractical to think that it could be made into a separate country altogether with many of its Citizens scattered everywhere in India.

    2.In Many good Universities all over India we still have reservations for a Jammu&Kashmiri student, another rule following which no Kashmiris have any qualms as they get to study in different IIM’s (Indian Insitute of Management) or IIT’s (Indian Insitute of Technology) of India.

    All in good spirits! No Ego Issues! No Personal Battles!

  148. #149 by khansahab on December 5, 2008 - 5:07 PM

    Javed A Khan

    Regarding comment 153, I totally agree Asif should face a life ban.

    Asif had his chance already but he has breached the drug abuse rules not once, but twice.

    Any leniency shown to him would definitely set a bad precedent. More and more cricketers from Pakistan are emerging from villages; they should not be made to feel that any breach of discipline will be dealt with leniently.

    I would go as far as saying Shoaib Akhtar should be banned for life. His career is on the verge of being over anyway.

  149. #150 by Abdul on December 5, 2008 - 5:32 PM

    Well great for the cricketing world that the test series is going ahead which as mentioned previously is really going to help India rebuild and recover there economical situation following the suicide attacks in Mumbai.

    England are prepraring for the brief series in Abu Dhabi ahead of the first test match. This shall be a real interesting series as both teams have set themselelves high aspirations in the future and therefore would possibly just give India the edge because of there recent form but am sitting on the egde on this one as I feel that both teams are equally as capable at test match level.

    Adil Rashid should really been given the opportunity to play for England. His allround performaances certainly deserve him an opportunity to expertise his skills at the highest level. He is especially required in India as the picthes suit spinners better as reprensented and proved by the statistics that spinners have got majority of the wickets by quite a margin and they have had a formidable impact on the game with the dry and dusty surfaces. At the age of 20 I feel it’s the perfect time for his talent to be utlized by England.

    The bloggers on this blog seem to be very critical of Kamran Akamrl’s position in the national side. I agree with these bloggers to an extent that his keeping has been shambolic and a major let down for the team. He has also made the bowlers like Kaneria struggle and toil. But we must atleast support his presence from a batting perspective as he’s been a true matchwinner. Do we remember when he hit 3 consecutive sixes in the last 3 balls in an odi and ovcourse win the first odi in Abu Dhabi which shows a genuine ability.Do we remember when he hit back to back hundreds aginst England and with his supreme form was rated as the secound best wicketkeeper follwoing Adam Gilchrist.

    Therefore we should support Kamran Akamrl at least from a batting perspective as he’s a genuine matchwinner and has already won many games for country. Oh another one has come into my head his supreme form against India with his knocks in Karachi and Moahali.

    Rearding keeping Humayn Farhat seems a strong canidate.

  150. #151 by khansahab on December 5, 2008 - 5:45 PM

    Sana

    In response to your comment no 139:

    Nowhere in my comment no 134, did I state Islamic fervour is only found within Pakistan. It depends what kind of “fervour” one is discussing. In Iran there is more extremism than Pakistan but you yourself have agreed that generally Iranian people are more open minded and sophisticated. I never made the point to say that a religious person cannot also be an educated or refined person.

    That is why I made education out to be so important. You can compare the literacy rates yourself of Iran and Pakistan and see the difference. In Iran the literacy rate is almost 80% whereas in Pakistan it’s less than 50%.

    Again, you have mentioned about religious Muslims doing well in studies in the UK. Firstly, your initial comment was not about Muslims vs Non Muslims, it was about Pakistanis vs Indians. My argument was about the way Pakistanis have interpreted religion but I have also mentioned about other evils such as feudalism and lack of women’s rights, which I agree do not emanate from Islam, but from culture. Having said that, do you honestly think the Mullahs and bigots in Pakistan don’t preach that in Islam only the man can provide for the family, be independent and that in Islam women should be subservient to men? That is where culture overlaps with religion.

    Muslim kids may have done well to an extent, but they are still very behind Christian, Jewish and Hindu kids. Particularly with kids of Pakistani origin; they are even behind Bangladeshi kids in education. The only ethnic group that performs worse than Pakistanis in education in the UK is African/Caribbean.

    Also, having a degree and/or representation in “respectable professions” like Law or Medicine does not necessarily mean the mind has been refined. I know many lawyers here in Manchester who are well off, well qualified but are paindoo at heart. Again this has a lot to do with cultural background and upbringing. You might say the same thing about Jews, that despite being well qualified they may be very bigoted or intolerant of Muslims, but there is a world of a difference in the way they have been brought up compared to most Muslims.

    Varun, re comment 150. Firstly, thanks for appreciating my comment.

    It seems like Sana, you have also misinterpreted the underlying rationale behind my comment. The point was not to say that Indians cannot be susceptible to village mentality. Indeed, a significant chunk of modern India is still agricultural. However, you can see for yourself the differences in the behaviour of Indians and Pakistanis in the UK, Canada, USA- in fact all over the world. In the UK now white people can tell by the way a brown-skinned person behaves whether he is an Indian or Pakistani.
    In order to back up what I said in comment no 134, I must stress here that India has a much higher percentage of urban population as opposed to Pakistan. Also, in Pakistan the primary or agriculture sector is still the dominant sector whereas the manufacturing and industrial sectors in India surpassed the agriculture sector more than a decade ago.

    The distinction I attempted between religion being a personal or public matter was nothing to do with religious rituals. If that is the case then we can say slaughtering animals on Eid by Muslims can be a public act of religious practice, because it is usually performed outdoors. I meant in the sense of the combination of Islam with the State in Pakistan. Also things like, certain issues being governed by Sharia. Law should be equal and uniform for everyone; you cannot have a separate law for members of one religion in a country and have a different law for people of other faiths. In Pakistan’s Constitution it states that the President has to be a Muslim. In a country with a 95% Muslim majority it would be very unlikely to have a Christian or Hindu candidate for Presidency, it might be something that only happens once in a 100 years. Yet, this provision should be struck off as it is incompatible with modern global standards.

  151. #152 by khansahab on December 5, 2008 - 6:41 PM

    Abdul

    I would respectfully disagree with your views on Akmal.

    I am agree Akmal has played a few good knocks in his career. But that is something even tailenders do at times. As for his 3 sixes, there is no denying he won Pakistan that match but it shouldn’t mean we should encourage his position in the team.

    Fawad Alam also hit 3 sixes but I never said that should justify his place in the team. What is needed is consistency. Akmal has played for so long but even now he is not someone I would call a reliable batsman. If he scores, then it’s good for the team but no one carries any expectations with him.

    His batting is like Afridi’s; if it works, it can win matches for Pakistan but usually it doesn’t. However the reason why Afridi should be in the team is because of his bowling, fielding and leadership skills, which most players lack.

    Akmal almost destroyed Kaneria’s and Sami’s careers and he may well have destroyed Afridi’s career too, due to dropping 2 or 3 catches recently off Afridi’s bowling.

  152. #153 by khansahab on December 5, 2008 - 6:55 PM

    Pakistani police losing terrorism fight

    Kathy Gannon

    Friday, 05 Dec, 2008

    BADABER: Brothers Mushtaq and Ishaq Ali left the police force a month ago, terrified of dying as their colleagues had – beheaded by militants on a rutted village road before a shocked crowd, AP reported.

    They went straight to the local Urdu-language newspaper to announce their resignation. They were too poor to pay for a personal ad, so the editor of The Daily Moon, Rasheed Iqbal, published a news story instead. He has run dozens like it.

    ‘They just want to get the word out to the Taliban that they are not with the police anymore so they won’t kill them,’ said Iqbal. ‘They know that no one can protect them, and especially not their fellow policemen.’

    Outgunned and out-financed, police in volatile north-western Pakistan are fighting a losing battle against insurgents, dozens of interviews by The Associated Press show. They are dying in large numbers, and many survivors are leaving the force.

    The number of terrorist attacks against police has gone up from 113 in 2005 to 1,820 last year, according to National Police Bureau. The death toll for policemen in that time has increased from nine to 575. In the north-western area alone, 127 policemen have died so far this year in suicide bombings and assassinations, and another 260 have been wounded.

    The crisis means the police cannot do the nuts-and-bolts work needed to stave off an insurgency fuelled by the Taliban and al-Qaida. While the military can pound mountain hideouts, analysts and local officials say it is the police who should hunt down insurgents, win over the people, and restore order.

    ‘The only way to save Pakistan is to think of extremism and insurgency in North West Frontier Province as a law enforcement issue,’ said Hassan Abbas, a South Asia expert at Harvard University’s Belfer Center Project for Science. ‘Rather than buying more F-16s, Pakistan should invest in modernizing its police.’

    In the Swat Valley, militants have turned a once-idyllic mountain getaway into a nightmare of bombings and beheadings despite a six-month military operation to root them out. About 300 policemen have fled the force already.

    On a recent evening in Mardan, Akhtar Ali Shah had just slipped out of his deputy police inspector’s uniform to head home. In an escort vehicle, a half-dozen of his guards had inched outside the giant white gates of the police station for a routine security check.

    The bomb exploded minutes later. Through a cloud of dust and dirt, Shah saw five of his six guards lying dead near the blood-smeared gate. The head of the suicide bomber rested nearby.

    ‘We are the ones who are getting killed by the terrorists that we are facing,’ Shah said later.

    Al-Qaida-linked militants ferry truckloads of explosives from the tribal regions through Mardan to targets deep within Pakistan, often slipping past scores of police checkpoints. But Shah said his men lack the technical expertise, training or equipment to hunt down big-name terrorists or even identify would-be suicide bombers.

    His voice laced with frustration, Shah held up his small black cell phone.

    ‘These people are among us. Look here: Our technical capabilities are so weak that we don’t even have the ability to listen or to trace these phone calls,’ he said. ‘How are we supposed to know who it is that is coming here to kill us and when?’

    Most of Pakistan’s 383,000 police are poorly paid constables. Malik Naveed Khan, who heads the force of 55,000 in the North West Frontier Province, said he has one policeman for every 364 miles of some of the most dangerous terrain in the world.

    ‘Insurgents can see when I go someplace and wait for me to return and kill me,’ he said. ‘It isn’t my own death that I fear, but every time there is an attack, it demoralizes the whole police force.’

    Khan said his men fight with World War II-vintage, single-shot weapons against the rapid-fire Kalashnikov rifles carried by the militants. The police go out on patrol without bulletproof vests or helmets. And of Khan’s 18 armored personnel carriers, six are 1960s-era Soviet models that break down so often he now sends a mechanic along with the police.

    A Pakistani constable makes about $80 a month, compared with about $170 for a Taliban foot soldier, Khan said.

    Even in death, militants do better than the Pakistani police. Militant groups pay more than $20,000 to the families of suicide bombers, compared with $6,000 given to a policeman’s survivor, Khan said.

    ‘Where is their money coming from?’ he asked.

    He said he believes a lot of it comes from the flourishing opium trade next door in Afghanistan, donations from devout Muslims and extortion of wealthy Muslims in the Middle East.

    Most police stations in Pakistan don’t even have cameras to photograph the crime scene or criminals. There were two functioning forensic laboratories in Pakistan in 2001, and since then four more have been approved – a start, but far short of the 50 or so police say they need. Khan said Pakistani police also lack enough explosives-sniffing dogs to effectively search out bombs.

  153. #154 by Wasim on December 5, 2008 - 7:43 PM

    Varun/Newguy

    When it comes to Islamic terrorism the world seems to have a selective amnesia.

    We forget who created Al-Qaeeda and Taliban and countless other extremist organizations to win the cold war and left without creating stability in the region and later used the Afghan civil war as a pretext for their presence in the region.

    Just because these thugs Portray themselves as jihadis and have Islamic names for their organizations doesn’t mean that what ever they are doing is at the behest of Muslim countries and are fighting a war for a grand Islamic agenda. This extremism has been imposed on the Muslim world. Violence begets violence and that’s what terrorism thrives on.

    Who is the aggressor in Palestine? Israel or Palestine? Who is grabbing Arab land and who is blatantly supporting the gross human rights committed by Israel?
    The world still feels sorrow about the Holocaust but turns a blind eye toward the genocide of Palestinians by the Jews.

    Who attacked Lebanon which resulted in the creation of Hezbollah? Did the chicken came first or the Egg.

    Did Afghanistan attacked Russia or it was vice versa?

    When Afghanistan almost became stable under Taliban who refused to recognize them and continued to supply weapons to 10% Tajiks and kept on stirring the pot of Afghan civil War.

    Who supported Saddam during the Iran-Iraq War and turned a blind eye toward his crimes?

    Who lied about the WMD’s in Iraq.

    More than a million Afghan’s have died because of the adventures of two superpowers but the world thinks that poor Afghans upon whom this war has been imposed are the main culprits. Why because they are Muslims? Don’t Muslims have the right to defend themselves?

    More than a million Iraqi’s have died because of the lies and adventures of one cowboy and his administration? All for what? For Oil and to destabilize the region and terrorize the surrounding muslim countries.

    The world sees an Iraqi,Palestinian or Afghan blowing himself and killing others and considers them as a threat to the world but turns a blind eye toward the mass murders? Why because they control the world’s economy?

    Who launched the new world order? The Muslims or the western countries?
    I think the collective conscience of the world is dead on this whole issue, morality and justice are no longer the basis on which countries vote in United nations they vote on the basis of their economic interests and the resulting alliances.

    The Neo cons and the proponents of the clash of civilizations and the new world order aren’t those guys the crusaders of the modern era?

    Who installs and support dictatorial regimes in Muslim countries?

    The Nazi fascists were they Muslims?
    The Russian communists were they Muslim?
    Or the British colonialism was a result of Islamic extremism?

    Why nobody talks about Jundullah a terrorist group created by CIA which operates inside Iran? Again just because it is given an Islamic name and most of the recruits are poor Afghans or tribal Balochis it will be considered as an Islamic terrorist organization even though it is working for the western countries and is being bank rolled by them.

    Why does the Nato allies have interests in every part of the world why do they have to interfere in the internal politics and regional politics of every nation and create conflicts in every part of the world?

    Who creates conflicts all over the world and sell arms or get strategic leverage?

    Why Africa was turned into a battle ground during the cold war, different disputes were created to sell small arms in the region and to get control of the raw materials in that whole region. Was that too Islamic extremism?

    Al-Qaeeda or any other terrorist organization created by CIA as long as they were fighting for their interests they were the heroes of the 20th century as soon as their goals were achieved and the cold war ended the same organizations were used to create anarchy in muslim countries and to malign Islam as a religion.

    We also have a selective amnesia about India’s role in the creation of Bangladesh but Kargil is still etched in the memory of Indians. It will be naive to assume by my Indian friends that Raw is not involved in any terrorist attacks in Pakistan, they have constantly tried to spread sectarian violence in Pakistan in the 80’s and 90’s and now through their consulates in Afghanistan are funding and training Baloch dissidents and the new Taliban who have launched a war in Pakistan’s northern areas.

    Violence begets violence and hate begets hate the question how can the world expect Muslims not to react over the injustice and atrocities committed in their regions.

    I am not justifying terrorism but only saying there is only one way to resolve the conflicts if there is justice in the world.

    I can give you a thousand more examples in different parts of the world where small terrorist groups were created by the super powers to achieve their goals but I think every educated person knows about it, we only accept it if we are unbiased and have a free conscience.

  154. #155 by Wasim on December 5, 2008 - 8:00 PM

    Btw has anybody watched the movie “Body of Lies” it clearly shows how CIA operates and how they create their own terror cells.

  155. #156 by khansahab on December 5, 2008 - 9:34 PM

    Muslims feel heat of 26/11

    Zia Haq, Hindustan Times

    New Delhi, December 06, 2008

    On December 1, a Class 9 Muslim student who wears a headscarf walked in late to class in a prominent central Delhi convent school. “You Pakistani,” said the teacher.

    “Excuse me, Ma’am, I am not a Pakistani,” the stunned student replied. The 17-year-old student, requesting anonymity, said she complained to the principal, who was sympathetic. “I was told the teacher would be spoken to,” the student said.

    Kulsum Fatema (17) studies in another central Delhi school. Two days ago, one of her friends came in with a message from her father: “Dad has asked me to not be friends with you because he says ‘Muslims keep bombs and one day they will ditch you’.”

    When Hindustan Times spoke to Fatema — daughter of All-India Personal Law Board member SQR Illyasi, on Wednesday, she appeared calm. “It’s because of sheer ignorance,” she said. “People make judgements like this because they don’t know you. We are still friends.”

    At a renowned college in Delhi, Anjuman Zara Rehman (name changed on request) is one of the two Muslim students in the English department. She wears a headscarf to college. “As the Mumbai attacks unfolded, one of her friends asked her, ‘Why is your religion so bad?’” her mother quoted her as saying.

    On November 2, a passenger heckled a Muslim flight attendant on the Mumbai-Aurangabad Jet Airways flight, citing her religion.

    The Mumbai attacks appear to be creating a fresh, vocal backlash against Muslims, many of whom fear 26/11 has reinforced familiar prejudices against the community. Across urban India, reports of jibes, anger and open prejudice are growing.

    Those fears are reflected in a country-wide appeal signed by actor Aamir Khan and circulated by Padmashri awardee playwright Aamir Raza Husain. “(The Indian Muslim) grieves along with rest of the country,” said the appeal, released on the Internet and being faxed to individuals, the media and other organisations. “On the other hand,” the appeal states, “there is a sense of bewildered confusion because somewhere he feels that rest of the country looks upon him with suspicion and blame. He thinks ‘Enough is Enough’ would sooner or later be used against him.”

    Gurgaon-based Husain said the appeal came from a “sense of frustration”. “Muslims share names with these terrorists, not their religion. The Quran I follow talks about a merciful God. Why should Muslims who don’t believe in terrorists’ ideology pay the price?”

    The vice-chancellor of Delhi’s Jamia Millia Islamia, Mushirul Hasan, said incidents like the attack on the Jet Airways flight attendant should only “deepen the stake Muslims have in the country, not weaken it”.

    Apparently, as the flight attendant was walking down the aisle, a passenger peered at her badge. “Are you Muslim?” he asked. “Why are Muslims doing this to the country?” he asked her, in an obvious reference to Mumbai attacks.

    The man was not under the influence of alcohol, the flight attendant, requesting anonymity, said. “She was stunned but didn’t respond,” a friend of hers, who is a flight attendant with a state-run carrier, told HT. Jet Airways did not respond to HT’s calls or text messages.

    At a time when Muslims in several Indian cities are trying to walk the extra mile in condemning the Mumbai attacks, some community leaders can’t resist the habit of speculating the impossible.

    Sample this. A widely-circulated e-mail by convenor of the Mumbai-based Muslim Intellectual Forum, Firoze Mithiborwala, reads: “As far as the terrorists who attacked Mumbai are concerned, they are in all likelihood… controlled by the American CIA, the Pakistani ISI and the Israeli MOSSAD.”

    “Such poisoned opinion has only helped to strengthen prejudices (against Muslims),” says Zulkif Manzoor, a Ramanujan Fellow at the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore.

    There was a “clear message” in the massive Muslim turnout at a multi-faith meet on December 3 at Hyderabad’s Necklace Road, said Mazher Hussain, the director of the Confederation of Voluntary Organisations. “There’s no way Muslims condone terror. Not only do they die at the hands of terrorists but also take the blame.”

  156. #157 by khansahab on December 5, 2008 - 10:44 PM

    I saw Musharraf’s interview today and as usual he spoke with integrity, passion for Pakistan and common sense.

    He was asked why he isn’t leaving the country to settle down in USA or Turkey. He said there were 2 reasons, one that he doesn’t have any assets or property outside of Pakistan (he stated that it’s a lie he has palaces in Turkey) and he also said that no matter what happens, Pakistan is his home and Pakistan is where he will die.

    He was asked about what the common Pakistani needs, and he said that firstly Pakistanis need sympathy from the international community because the international community does not want to associate itself with the fears and concerns of the common Pakistani man.

    Musharraf understandably could not make this statement while in power, but he said that this whole “jihad” business started 30 years ago when America created Taliban and trained them. Hence he said America has to deal with this issue with concern and caution.

    Musharraf also spoke about the international community being very keen on blaming Pakistan for every terrorist attack. Regarding the Mumbai attacks he said it was very unfortunate, but that India needs to realise Pakistan itself has suffered the same kind of attacks. Pakistan itself is a victim of terrorism. He completely ruled out the idea that the Pakistan state or intelligence was behind any terrorist attack.

  157. #158 by Varun Suri on December 5, 2008 - 10:45 PM

    Wasim@183,

    I share the answers to most of your “WHO” Questions which in all likelihood is USA and remember India has traditionally never been friendly/close to USA.We are not officially a part of “War on Terror”, but maye after Bombay WE ARE! Historically Americans have never really thought any good for South-Asia or for that matter anywhere in the World since 1945!! But for some reason it was always friendly towards Pakistan and always maintained close relationship with it now whether this influenced India-Russia friendship or vice-versa i really do not know.

    Anyways, I am curious to hear your side of the story about the Role of RAW/India in the creation of Bangladesh.

    Being an Indian, an Indian for whom the idea of a Country with boundaries is more important than my own religion I fail to understand Why some cruelty or injustice done to somebody in some other part of the World should trouble one to such an extent that one starts to harbour thoughts of taking revenge in a violent manner.I am not refering to you but the countless other Extremists/Terrorists who in justification of their Terror would cite injustices done to people of their religion in other parts of the World.For example the July 7 BBCD’s bombers who cited the war in Iraq as one of the reasons to blow the London Tube.

    After coming to Netherlands, I came to know that there are lot of “Surinamese Hindoostanis” as they call them here who are basically 3rd or 4th Generation people from the Indian states of U.P and Bihar who were taken there by the Dutch/British in the 19th Century. They are as dark/wheatish as the East Indian people and unless they open their mouth and speak Dutch they all look Hindu, they celebrate all the Hindu festivals, customs and rituals yet hardly anybody in India knows about them. If at all tomorrow there is some injustice done to them nobody in India is going to even bother even a second for them. The same goes for the Indian/Hindu Generations in the Caribbean, islands like Fiji where almost 50% population is Indian origin. So even if we have not seen the worst face of Hindu Extremism yet and if we see it in the coming few decades or years, i can say with full conviction that there is nobody within the Indian Hindu community who would care a dam if anything bad is happening to these people.

    You can say that maybe in Hinduism there is this lack of unity or bonding which prevents them from protesting against the sufferings of Hindus in other parts of the World, But I want to ask you Why is it that for a Muslim, his Religion will always be above/ more important than his Country?…… or am I wrong?

    khansahab and sana@178

    khansahab, I agree with your comments and would like to add something tomorrow….

  158. #159 by khansahab on December 5, 2008 - 10:54 PM

    Varun

    One of the differences between India and Pakistan also is that for an Indian, India always comes before his religion or ethnicity whereas for Pakistanis it’s usually religious sect, then religion, then ethnic background and caste, and finally the country.

    As a Muslim I can’t deny that Islam is more important to me than the UK, Pakistan or any other country. The whole concept of Islam is based around the idea that submission to Allah and acknowledgment of Muhammad (PBUH) as the final prophet, is more important than everything else, whether that is country or even family. However, Islam offers flexibility and in today’s multicultural and diverse world it is not impossible to remain committed to a non Muslim country. Hence I proudly call myself a British Muslim, and I sure in the same way many Indians call themselves proud Indian Muslims.

    That is why Muslims generally are extra cautious they never make any blasphemous statements or that anything associated with faith is not maligned or ridiculed.

  159. #160 by Varun Suri on December 5, 2008 - 11:31 PM

    Omer@179,

    Apologies for that! But Since i have lived in Srinagar and Baramullah when my father served at the Border during 83,84 and again in 89-91. I tend to sometimes mix “Indians” with ” Indian Government” as my father was/is a part of both right now.

  160. #161 by Varun Suri on December 5, 2008 - 11:32 PM

    Mumbai atrocities highlight need for solution in Kashmir

    By William Dalrymple

    Three weeks ago, in the Kashmiri capital of Srinagar, I met a young surgeon named Dr Iqbal Saleem. Iqbal described to me how on 11 August this year, Indian security forces entered the hospital where he was fighting to save the lives of unarmed civilian protesters who had been shot earlier that day by the Indian army. The operating theatre had been tear-gassed and the wards riddled with bullets, creating panic and injuring several of the nurses. Iqbal had trained at the Apollo hospital in Delhi and said he harboured no hatred against Hindus or Indians. But the incident had profoundly disgusted him and the unrepentant actions of the security forces, combined with the indifference of the Indian media, had convinced him that Kashmir needed its independence.

    I thought back to this conversation last week, when news came in that the murderous attackers of Mumbai had brutally assaulted the city’s hospitals in addition to the more obvious Islamist targets of five-star hotels, Jewish centres and cafes frequented by Americans and Brits. Since then, the links between the Mumbai attacks and the separatist struggle in Kashmir have become ever more explicit. There now seems to be a growing consensus that the operation is linked to the Pakistan-based jihadi outfit, Lashkar-e-Taiba, whose leader, Hafiz Muhammad Sayeed, operates openly from his base at Muridhke outside Lahore.

    This probable Pakistani origin of the Mumbai attacks, and the links to Kashmir-focused jihadi groups, means that the horrific events have to be seen in the context of the wider disaster of Western policy in the region since 9/11. The abject failure of the Bush administration to woo the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan away from the Islamists and, instead, managing to convince many of them of the hostility of the West towards all Muslim aspirations, has now led to a gathering catastrophe in Afghanistan where the once-hated Taliban are now again at the gates of Kabul.

    Meanwhile, the blowback from that Afghan conflict in Pakistan has meant that Asif Ali Zardari’s government has now lost control of much of the North West Frontier Province, in addition to the Federally Administrated Tribal Areas, while religious and political extremism flourishes as never before.

    Pakistan’s most intractable problem remains the relationship of Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) over the last 25 years with myriad jihadi groups. Once, the ISI believed that they could use jihadis for their own ends, but the Islamists have increasingly followed their own agendas, to the extent that they now feel capable of launching well-equipped and well-trained armies into Indian territory, as happened so dramatically in Mumbai.

    Visiting Pakistan last week, it was clear that much of the north of the country was slipping out of government control. While it is unlikely that Zardari’s government had any direct link to the Mumbai attacks, there is every reason to believe that its failure effectively to crack down on the country’s jihadi network, and its equivocation with figures such as Hafiz Muhammad Syed, means that atrocities of the kind we saw last week are likely to continue.

    India meanwhile continues to make matters worse by its ill-treatment of the people of Kashmir, which has handed to the jihadis an entire generation of educated, angry middle-class Muslims. One of the clean-shaven boys who attacked CST railway station – now named by the Indian media as Mohammad Ajmal Mohammad Amin Kasab, from Faridkot in the Pakistani Punjab – was wearing a Versace T-shirt. The other boys in the operation wore jeans and Nikes and were described by eyewitnesses as chikna or well-off. These were not poor, madrasah-educated Pakistanis from the villages, brainwashed by mullahs, but angry and well-educated, middle-class kids furious at the gross injustice they perceive being done to Muslims by Israel, the US, the UK and India in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir respectively.

    If Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is the most emotive issue for Muslims in the Middle East, then India’s treatment of the people of Kashmir plays a similar role among South-Asian Muslims. At the Partition of India and Pakistan in 1947, the state should logically have gone to Pakistan. However, the pro-Indian sympathies of the state’s Hindu Maharajah, as well as the Kashmiri origins of the Indian Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, led to the state passing instead to India – on the condition that the Kashmiris retained a degree of autonomy.
    Successive Indian governments, however, refused to honour their constitutional commitments to the state. The referendum, promised by Nehru at the UN, on whether the state would remain part of India, was never held. Following the shameless rigging of the 1987 local elections, Kashmiri leaders went underground. Soon after, bombings and assassination began, assisted by Pakistan’s ISI which ramped up the conflict by sending over the border thousands of heavily armed jihadis.

    India, meanwhile, responded with great brutality to the insurgency. Half-a-million Indian soldiers and paramilitaries were dispatched to garrison the valley. There were mass arrests and much violence against ordinary civilians, little of which was ever investigated, either by the government or the Indian media. Two torture centres were set up – Papa 1 and Papa 2 – into which large numbers of local people would ‘disappear’. In all, some 70,000 people have now lost their lives in the conflict. India and Pakistan have fought three inconclusive wars over Kashmir, while a fourth mini-war came alarmingly close to igniting a nuclear exchange between the two countries in 1999. Now, after the Mumbai attacks, Kashmir looks likely to derail yet again the burgeoning peace process between India and Pakistan.

    Kashmir continues to divide the establishment of Pakistan more than any other issue. Zardari might publicly announce that he doesn’t want to let Kashmir get in the way of improved relations between India and Pakistan, but Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is officially banned, continues to function under the name of Jama’at al-Dawa, and Hafiz Muhammad Sayeed continues openly to incite strikes against Indian and Western targets. At one recent meeting, he proclaimed that ‘Christians, Jews and Hindus are enemies of Islam’ and added that it was the aim of the Lashkar to ‘unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi’.

    Sayeed also proclaims that the former princely state of what he calls ‘Hyderabad Deccan’ is also a part of Pakistan, which may explain the claim of responsibility for the attacks by a previously unknown group named the Deccan Mujahideen. It is clear Sayeed appears to operate with a measure of patronage from the Pakistani establishment and the Zardari government recently cleared the purchase of a bulletproof Land Cruiser for him. When Pakistan’s Foreign Minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, was yesterday asked on Indian TV whether Pakistan would now arrest Sayeed, he dodged the question answering: ‘We have to recognise that there are elements in every society that can act on their own.’

    In the months ahead, we are likely to see a security crackdown in India and huge pressure applied to Pakistan to match its pro-Indian and pro-Western rhetoric with real action against the country’s jihadi groups. But there is unlikely to be peace in South Asia until the demands of the Kashmiris are in some measure addressed and the swamp of grievance in Srinagar somehow drained. Until then, the Mumbai massacres may be a harbinger of more violence to come.
    -(Courtesy: The Guardian)

    William Dalrymple’s Last Mughal won the Duff Cooper Prize and the Crossword Indian Book of the Year prize.

    [Kashmir Times]

  161. #162 by Sweetie on December 5, 2008 - 11:47 PM

    B F , u went from B F to B M? hehe

  162. #163 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 6, 2008 - 5:27 AM

    Varun

    I haven’t yet read your previous comments but, the latest ones I have. The article by William Dalrymple is a good example of how the Kashmiris feel and react against the Indian forces brutality. But, what I failed to understand that suddenly the fingers were pointing at Pakistan by naming that leader of LeT who is based in Lahore.

    If he is the real culprit behind the Mumbai attacks then he certainly deserves punishment. But, will that resolve the main issue? Perhaps it will provoke many of his brainwashed followers to react madly.

    About RAW & Mossad’s role in creating Bangladesh: I think it is ridiculous to say that they created Bangladesh. We know that the Indian spy agencies helped the Mukti Bahini but, the main culprit behind the creation of Bangladesh is NO ONE but, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

    He was a power hungry maniac, a pervert (whom I used to consider a hero when I was very young) he is responsible for creating Bangladesh. There is enough evidence to prove that it was created because of his arrogance and his greed to rule at any cost. Besides, the thousands of miles distance between the East & West Pakistan was also one of the reasons that kept the two cultures miles apart.

    More laters………. Its too late now.

  163. #164 by Wasim on December 6, 2008 - 6:53 AM

    Varun

    “I share the answers to most of your “WHO” Questions which in all likelihood is USA and remember India has traditionally never been friendly/close to USA.We are not officially a part of “War on Terror”, but maye after Bombay WE ARE!”

    Well that’s not correct India have had good relations with United states as in all the wars we had with India united states supported India, except for a brief period of Afghan/Russian war Pakistan never enjoyed any advantage.US policy makers have always said that their alliance with India is more natural than Pakistan.

    Pakistan’s relation with US have always based on needs of both countries, we needed protection from a hostile neighbor and economic help, they needed Pakistan to fight their proxy war against the Soviet Union.The relation of both countries has always fluctuated as their needs fluctuated.

    It is also not correct that India is not a partner in the war on terror, after 9/11 India jumped on every opportunity to become an ally of United states, and in return they got the nuclear deal,they got the MFN trade partner status, the sale of highly restricted defense equipment was opened for India which tipped the balance of power in the region in their favor.

    America doesn’t give any free lunches all of it was given in return of some long term assurances and material co-operation in the war of terror.India has 10,000 troops in Afghanistan, why? if they are not partners in the war on terror?

    “Being an Indian, an Indian for whom the idea of a Country with boundaries is more important than my own religion………..”

    You cannot compare Hindus with Muslims in this respect because Hindus are not going through what the Muslims are going through so the comparison is not there.

    If for some reason Hinduism comes under attack in Europe your basic beliefs, your way of life, your social structure, or one of the Hindu God is ridiculed in a newspaper in Holland then you see what the reaction is in India, until then you cannot feel what a Muslim feels.

    The Muslims all over the world worship one god, have one prophet and have the same set of basic beliefs, now if the core belief system is attacked and the entire way of life is criticized 24/7 via media all over the world then the response to such attacks comes from all corners because every Muslim takes it personally.

    Now why do Jews all over the world support Israel unconditionally?Why the jews in America, Russia and Europe so touchy about Arab-Israel conflict.

    Why does a gora in Australia or Newzealand so zealously defends George Bush’s policies.

    Why a cartoonist in Holland plays with the emotions of all the Muslims after 9/11?

    I can give you names of at least 30 christian states which are actively supporting US in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    So what’s the difference if Pakistani’s come out on streets in support of the Palestinians, Iraqis or Afghans.
    It’s a clash of civilizations.

    I know you will say that they don’t blow themselves up, true, because they know they can kill millions in an open war so why settle for a few and besides they have plenty of hired thugs/mercenaries in every part of the world to do these small jobs for them.

    As i said before all the wars and conflicts have been imposed on Muslims and those who created Al-Qaeeda and Taliban to install a new world order are the main terrorists.

    “Kill a few you are a murderer, kill a million you are a conqueror”.

  164. #165 by Wasim on December 6, 2008 - 7:01 AM

    Javed

    There are many dimensions to a problem, Z A Bhutto was one of the main problems but India’s role is not limited to just Raw’s support of Mukti Bahini its much more than that.

    Read ” Raw and Bangladesh” its written by a prominent Bangladeshi journalist “Zain ul Abedin” who was also a freedom fighter and was trained in Indian camps.

  165. #166 by Varun Suri on December 6, 2008 - 10:12 AM

    Don’t make cricket a victim of terror — India should tour Pakistan

    Posted by
    Dileep Premachandran

    The game can build bridges, and cancelling the new year series in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks would achieve nothing.

    Every disaster needs a scapegoat or two. Shivraj Patil, India’s recently resigned home minister, was the first, and it now appears as though the tour of Pakistan, scheduled for early in the new year, will be the next lamb to the slaughter. It’s a defenceless lamb too. After all, cancelling a tour costs the government nothing. So what if it achieves nothing either? It temporarily slakes the bloodlust of those that want an eye for an eye, and is a handy distraction when faced with probing questions about the abject intelligence failure that led to the siege of south Mumbai.

    Sooner or later it will be established that the terrorists and the plan they implemented came from Pakistan. That does not mean, however, that the Pakistani government was involved. Given the shambolic state of the Asif Ali Zardari administration, accusing them of complicity is almost akin to holding a cuckolded husband accountable for his wife’s antics with half the neighbourhood.

    Over the past 18 months, Pakistan has witnessed the siege of the Lal Masjid, the assassination of a prominent political leader and innumerable bomb blasts. India’s external enemy is their enemy within, a legacy of the death-and-destruction factories set up by the United States and the Pakistan army three decades ago. As the maulvi in Khuda Kay Liye (In the Name of God, a wonderful Pakistani movie about the conflict between fundamentalism and modernity) says: “You called us mujahideen then. Now you call us terrorists.”

    Does the cancellation of a cricket tour make the jihadis go away, or does it merely strengthen the hawks on both sides? What does the average Pakistani have to do with Lashkar-e-Taiba or the Taliban? About as much as the normal Indian has to do with lunatic right-wing groups like the Bajrang Dal. Nothing at all. What people across the border need is support for their war on terror, not tarring with the terrorism brush.

    What difference does a cricket tour make anyway? From personal experience I can tell you the answer. Until I first went across the border in 2004, my knowledge of Pakistan was restricted to a few novels, some poetry, the music of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and what I read in Indian newspapers and watched on TV. Nothing at all really. The cardboard-cutout stereotypes peddled by Bollywood movies had also permeated the psyche, and paranoia was my constant companion the day I landed at the Allama Iqbal Airport in Lahore.

    Having conveniently left the travellers’ cheques at home, I needed to find an ATM before I took the bus to Multan. As the cab twisted and turned down largely deserted streets (the summer heat was a simple explanation for their emptiness), I kept thinking of Daniel Pearl and scimitars held to my neck. After I withdrew the money, the unease was even greater. The driver must have sensed it. Stopping the car, he turned around to me and said with a smile: “Fikr mat karo. Aap hamare mehmaan hain (Don’t fret. You’re our guest).”

    Over the next month, I heard that sentence ad nauseam. What’s more, they meant it. I’ve been kicked in the ribs with Doc Martens as a child growing up in England, been treated like vermin by a thuggish Croatian restaurant owner in fashionable St Kilda in Melbourne and nearly mugged in Johannesburg. Pakistan is the one place I have no bad memories of, apart from discomfort caused by too many boti kebabs in the shadow of the Badshahi Mosque.

    Cricket diplomacy works. I’ve seen it work. The 2004 tour nearly didn’t happen, but when it did thousands of Indians crossed the border to watch the cricket and explore the cities that their ancestors had had to leave behind in the madness that enveloped the subcontinent at the time of partition.
    On their faces I could see the same realisation. These were people like us, living in a flawed society, pissed on by inept government, and trying to get by as best they could.

    The root of all enmity is ignorance. “I believe curiosity can be a moral quality,” wrote Amos Oz, with reference to the Arab-Israeli conflict and the lack of knowledge of the “other”. Closing the door on Pakistan now would set us all back decades. The vast majority of Pakistani citizens, who have no truck with terrorism, would be judged guilty by association. Again, that’s as farcical as saying I have blood on my hands because of the Gujarat atrocities of 2002.

    If India’s cricketers do not want to tour Pakistan at the moment because of worries over security, that’s fair enough. But snapping the cord permanently is not the answer. Engagement is. As Faiz Ahmed Faiz, one of Pakistan’s greatest poets, wrote in the aftermath of the creation of Bangladesh (thank you to Sadia Raval in Mumbai for the translation): “Hospitalities exchanged, yet we who strangers stay, With how many encounters, shall amiability display? After how many rains, shall the blood stains fade, And when, in our sight, shall unspotted fields sway?”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2008/dec/04/cricket-premachandran-india-pakistan

  166. #167 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 10:30 AM

    Sweetie

    Now what is BM?

    LOL in Business Law that abbreviation is used for “Board Meeting”.

    You are still and will always be a “GF”- that stands for (if you need reminding), GIRLFRIEND.

  167. #168 by 420 on December 6, 2008 - 3:23 PM

    hi guys
    its been a terrible thx giving weekend.
    Let us keep all the bias apart, and start talking rationally.
    For me, it doesnt matter whether its a hindu/muslim/christian terrorist.
    Whoever is responsible for killing of my countrymen, should be STONED to death. If its a advani,modi,azhar masood i simply dont care.

    People tend to forget godhra, speak about guj riots.
    none notices MF Hussain’s ARTWORK, but the holland cartoons standout.
    The kashmiri pandits slaying and their total displacement from kashmir doesnt deserve any sympathy, but a “genocide” is all what we talk about
    A hindu kills a muslim, the indian media reports “muslim killed by hindu”
    A muslim kills a hindu, it is “a man killed by another man”
    An “innocent” afzal is still awaiting his noose, after attacking the indian parliament.

    My emphasis here is that India is never a Hindu DOMINATED country, that is what makes India. And pls dont think that the current central govt is hindu fanatic. They go to any extent for minority votes. One side we have BJP who are try to do anything for the RADICAL votes, and Congress tries to cash on votes on the other end of spectrum.

    Fk the human rights, i probably feel better in a country like china rather than watch my countrymen die for no reason.

    Any Indian, who has dreams of nurturing a hinduRajya or an IslamicState is welcome to LEAVE the country.

    Sorry guys for the random ramblings.

  168. #169 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 3:53 PM

    ‘No political party’s agenda can be communal’

    Rajdeep: Shah Rukh, thank you very much for joining us.

    Shah Rukh: Thank you, Rajdeep.

    Rajdeep: These are tough times for Mumbai. How does 26/11 affect you as a Mumbaikar? If I can call you that today because you are very much a part of this city, this city has made you.

    Shah Rukh: I am from Delhi. I have seen riots in Delhi and when I came to Mumbai in 1993 then there were these bomb blasts and now I have seen it through 26/11. More than as a Mumbaikar, I have started feeling even more Indian than I felt before and specifically also because I like to believe that I am an educated, liberal Muslim who has a Hindu wife and two kids. More I have seen these kinds of things over the years, more it makes me realise two things very-very clearly – one the vulnerability of life and the second part is that how important it is for me, I say a very small thing which I always think now that I need to spend time with my loved ones. When I think of my loved ones now, that circle is increasing. It is not got to do with only my wife, my children and couple of friends. It is now increasing, I want to spend time with all the people I thought that I can like or love and slowly I believe this is going to make everyone in the country do the same. We are going to spread this circle of love. I think tragedy has strange sense of uniting people so it is making me feel that I need to spend every living hour of my life, which can go off like this, with people who matter a lot.

    Rajdeep: Because you could be sitting at the Kandhahar or Tiffin at the Oberoi or the Golden Dragon at the Taj, one moment celebrating let us say your friend’s birthday or your anniversary and the next moment there is a guy with a gun who is shooting randomly. It almost makes you philosophical.

    Shah Rukh: It makes you philosophical also not only in these specific areas, you could be just walking on the roadside. What happened in Mumbai must be happening everywhere, in the railway stations and it is happening to many people. You are just walking. I get very scared now, when my kids have to be sent to school in the school bus. It could happen to anybody. The whole reality is that it could happen to anyone of us, it is not bound by areas or castes or creeds or colours. It can happen to anyone.

    Rajdeep: But Shah Rukh you know in a sense what 26/11 has also done to Mumbai, is united people – Hindus, Muslims across the class divide it could be a child of privilege going to the Taj or Oberoi or be at Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus taking the night train. It could be a north Indian or it could be a Maharashtrian, it has broken down all barriers.

    Shah Rukh: Absolutely, if you can take away any positive from this tragedy and have some kind of peace in your heart to be able to look at that. I think the very thing that the terrorists try to destroy is unity, secularism, the economy and just the dignity of the country. I think for the first time, we all have come to realise that that very thing has actually strengthened. The unity has got strengthened and I cannot say I am glad but I can 100 per cent say that if you can take away anything positive that is biggest positive. They have now given us the biggest weapon against them and we need to utilise that in the best way possible.

    Rajdeep: Which is unity?

    Shah Rukh: Yes, which is unity across classes, across religions and I think the clergies should also take a note from this aspect and say okay whatever we say, whatever we do, wherever we come from, whichever religion we promoting somewhere down the line a situation has risen in our country that all of us are not going to listen to it if it is going to be lopsided. We will only listen to things which will unite us now.

    Rajdeep: Because on Wednesday there was a sea of people at the Gateway of India. It started off with an SMS campaign and build out through social networking and there was a sea of people bashing the politicians but also in a strange way uniting people in wanting answers. You sense that there is a generation out there which is now coming out?

    Shah Rukh: Absolutely, I am a true believer and at this point of time I also believe that at 43 I am a little older than the younger generation. But, I truly believe that we are venting right now and we need to. We are frustrated, we are cynical, we are angry and we are rightly so. At this point of time we are finding various areas to vent out, whether they are politicians, whether they are some services which failed, we will do all that but I just want to tell to the youngsters especially that don’t let go off this frustration, anger and cynicism. Use it as a constructive, aggressive move towards bringing a change. I truly believe that if you waste it, forget it; there are lot of areas where whether it is politicians or ex-presence of ‘X’ person certain things which perhaps have been said wrong because everybody is angry rightly so they should say but do not let it go waste. Hold on to it so that constructively with the youth of this country, because it is a historical event I truly believe this. This is a historical turning point for us which is going to bring the younger people together. Ask questions and listen to the answers and if the answers are not right, re-ask the questions or change the people who are giving those answers.

    Rajdeep:Are you willing to be a part of that change?

    Shah Rukh: Absolutely.

    Rajdeep:In what way? You are an icon for that entire generation, that generation which has grown up on Shah Rukh Khan, so are you willing to be a part of that change? I am not going to the point of saying that is Shah Rukh Khan willing to join politics, I don’t know whether you’ll like to.

    Shah Rukh: I think there should be people who are cut for the jobs, I truly believe. I have no ants against politics or politicians or any kind of negative feeling. I also respect the fact that their hands are tied; there is going to be international scheming and thoughts to this. Of course, they were not prepared, of course I also believe that the worst politicians are opportunist, also I believe that the best politicians sometimes get their hands tied on because of this whole voting thing. They actually want a change but they want some more time but yes I am truly a part of this movement. If there is anything that I can put myself forward to as a, now I can’t call myself a civilian, but at least someone who has just passed over his youth, as someone who can stand by the youth of this country and can say good do this.

    Rajdeep: But not becoming a politician? I am not seeing Shah Rukh Khan in a mood of an NGR, NTR or the southern politician. That is not what you are comfortable with?

    Shah Rukh: No, but I would give my full support to those who is cut off from this job, who is younger and even if there is someone from the younger politicians who is going to take stands and ask for clear-cut honest questions. There is corruption in our system and we are all corrupt but somewhere down the line if someone has to move away from it I am there. Aamir said a wonderful thing the other day in his blog that the youth needs to form a political party, they need to come forward and I am there to support them in any which way possible.

    Rajdeep: You believe that the generational change must take place. We are a younger country now, 60-65 per cent of Indian population is under younger people now. Do you think the time has come for the younger politicians to come, people who inspire hope rather than cynicism?

    Shah Rukh: Absolutely right. Hope with a little bit of anger which is used constructively. You need to have the madness of the youth because let me tell you the youth today is not uneducated or silly. I can always give you an example, if you can get youth somewhere in the world to behave radically like the terrorists do, you can make sure that the youth of this country also behave in a positive way. They can also well clearly take steps and measures, I can give hope as you said. They can give you amazingly realistic hope.

    Rajdeep: You mentioned in the starting that you are liberal, you are Muslim. What has been interesting, your Indian identity or your Muslim identity? You are a proud Indian Muslim, now when you hear terrorists who speak on the name of the religion, speak on the name of Islam, claim that through some form of terrorism they’ll actually reach jannat(heaven). What do you have to say those?

    Shah Rukh: Let me clarify, I have read the holy Quran. It states that if you heal one man, you heal the whole mankind, and if you hurt one man, you hurt the whole mankind. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that jihad will lead you to jannat (paradise). As a matter of fact, the book says that in a war, you can not kill any woman, you can not kill any child and you can not kill any animal, or destroy any crops. Jihad was supposed to be propagated by the Prophet himself but unfortunately now two versions of Islam exist. There is an Islam from Allah and – I am not being anti – very unfortunately, there is an Islam from the Mullahs. I appeal to all of them to please give the youngsters, the right reading of the Quran.

    Rajdeep: So, they are distorting religion.

    Shah Rukh: Yes, absolutely. This is what has happened in the past 100-120 year, this is not something that is 1000-500 year ago. I’ll tell you Jehad is something to be called upon by the prophet himself and Jehad also has a very simple logic if you go by what is written, there have to be debates, there has to be understanding either you convince me with your view point or I convince you with mine and even then also if we don’t understand we go our separate ways. No where does Jehad says very-very clearly, I’ll be very honest about it I have read it many times over last two-three years. It doesn’t say anywhere that you enter someone’s terrority, Jehad says that if someone else comes into your territory then you can protect yourself.

    Rajdeep: Does it trouble you then? There are societies which even sent SMSs like – “Not every Muslim is a terrorist but all terrorists are Muslims”. These are some SMSs which have done rounds in the middle class and upper middle class in our societies. Now people are coming to terms that there are all forms of terror.

    Shah Rukh: Yes, I can’t deny this anymore. Two year back I use to get very disturbed when Americans said that all the terrorists are Muslims. I use to say no but now I can’t deny because 95-99 per cent of the people who are caught or shot claim to be Muslims.

    Rajdeep: Though, there are hate speeches from both the communities. Hindus resort to hate speeches to Muslims and vice-versa, each of whom in a sense have mind violence.

    Shah Rukh: I think both hardliners, both Hindus and Muslims I think there should be law against them that no political party’s agenda can be communal be the biggest party or the smallest party , no organisation which is going to misread any of the books that is Quran or Gita should be allowed. There should be a hardliner treatment for the hardliners. This is one, secondly I’ll also like to believe that this point of time that some of us are born Muslims but they have been misled. They are by birth Muslims but not by teachings. The teachings of Islam are as good, as wonderful as the teachings of Gita or the Bible. They are all the same and I think the youngsters understand this much better and that is why I have a huge hope in them.

    Rajdeep:I saw a lot of posters also at the Gateway of India that day which said let us bomb Pakistan, let us destroy the terrorists based in Pakistan which are also leading to a dangerous jingoism and one level Shah Rukh Khan is an icon not only in India but Pakistan too so you can be a bridge builder so at such a time when people try to divide communities does that worry you? Should we bomb Pakistann, can we blame all Pakistani society for the acts of these terrorists.

    Shah Rukh: No, absolutely not. Like I said this is a passionate reaction. That is the first reaction that comes out but I have a huge amount of faith in the goodness of Indians and I think they would understand this. When they say this, they are very clear. There is an organisation which we are assuming, the term used by Rice the ‘non-state actors’. Of course if the non-state actors are in a certain state then the time has come that the state acts. I think more than me as a bridge builder, who can just be a cultural builder, it is time to act. I think no more going in buses across the roads I think the top five people from our country from the Government should sit down and say listen we have to accept this that these guys are somewhere down the line being born and brought up in a country and it is destroying their country too, it is not that it is happening only to us, it is happening to you too.

    Rajdeep: So, you can’t just have co-production of films, let’s have a co-production on terror. Let’s have a joint mechanism for terror.

    Shah Rukh: Absoultely, the time has come that the both countries come together in this fight against terror. I am not sensing dishonesty but what I am sensing is that everybody is trying to protect themselves. You can’t say it is not happening in Pakistan, you can’t completely deny.

    Rajdeep: So, Pakistan is living in complete denial?

    Shah Rukh: They are living in denial and of course some of us are also reacting by saying just bomb Pakistan. Like I said the first standard of Jehad, if I was to tell you as a Muslim is debate. Let us sit down and accept the truth, accpeting the truth makes the problem vanish. Let us accept the truth that these guys are being trained there, we are not clamining that the government is doing that, we are simply saying they are being trained. Can gobvernment do something about it, yes we can. Lets try to finsih them off in the best way possible.

    Rajdeep: Shah Rukh will you be able to debate with fanatics, be it a Hindu or a Muslim fanatic. Are you ready to have that debate?

    Shah Rukh: I think fanatics have no ground stand, it is very easy to debate with fanatics because I think they are misinformed, illinformed and they have no ground stand. Any normal, educated, well brought up Indian or Pakistani can debate with a fanatic from either sides and win the debate very easily. They have no answers after a while, I am again and again saying that if you are following Allah’s words, even if you are following Gita’s words or Biblical words, there is no place anywhere which will say this.

    Rajdeep: There is no place in the civilised society for an AK47, you can not take the lives of innocent people on the name of religion and claim that you are following denis of Quran? This is a complete distortion of a great book?

    Shah Rukh: You and I don’t know how heaven is going to be like. You and I genuinely know what god is going to be like. But I can assure you that you and I both know it very clearly that by hurting someone who is innocent there is no way, no god in this world is going to give heaven.

    Rajdeep: Do you think after as a result what has happened in Mumbai, India is going to be a stronger place or a weaker place?

    Shah Rukh: I think as I told that this is going to be a historical turning point of change. There is no way that this is not going to unite us together. I see an amazing amount of hope.

    Rajdeep: This is like the Obama’s generation coming – ‘Yes,we can’.

    Shah Rukh: Yes, 100 per cent. There are people who can do it and will do it. I was just telling this to someone the other day that we need to see within ourself. The youth don’t have the barriers of the history so they can take calls which are new for the modern world . I am not saying bomb xyz but we can’t allow people come to our houses and destroy our families.

    Rajdeep: Zero tolerance for terror.

    Shah Rukh: Zero tolerance for terror and lack of security. We need to set up such organisations and tell them that we will not tolerate this and right now I can sense this in the country.

    Rajdeep: And, then we debate issues like terror laws, police forces, modernisation of the police. We can’t have rifles against AK47. So you are saying let us have a clear debate on terror. Lets be united, let us not make it an ideological debate or a religious debate, let us make it for better laws and tougher laws without ideology?

    Shah Rukh: Absolutely, if we want to win this time let not ideological and religious stuff come in our way. I think we have got a chance where we have come on the same platform where we are equally scared and I think fear is the key for unity. Let us use this fear in an aggressive and positive way without getting affected by ideological, political, communal things.

    Rajdeep:So fear is translated to anger which hopefully is going to be translated into action?

    Shah Rukh: But it is constructive aggressive action.

    Rajdeep: I sense in you a potential politician. I am tempting you again in some way, do you see yourself to have that kind of a role in public life or do you think Shah Rukh Khan’s role is to be a cultural ambassador who also has a strong view on issues which put you as a role model and you can communicate to the younger generation?

    Shah Rukh: I’ll be honest. I truly believe a politician has to be completely selfless, has to it for a community, area, state and country. I’ll be very honest about it. I am not scared but I am not selfless enough to be a politician. I wish five year down the line I become selfless and if I could do something for this country which has given me everything that I am today. I won’t lie that I don’t want to be a politician but I don’t have the right qualities to be a politician. I am still too caught up in my own small world for making things work for myself and for my family.

    Rajdeep: But, you said 26/11 has changed you and the world of many-many Indians, you believe it is a very-very defining moment

    Shah Rukh: Absolutely, I can’t say we are fortunate but we are in the middle of an amazing, historical event which is only going to make our country stronger. At the same time, I can’t say I am happy but I am at peace if I can be a part of this movement. And, if I can be a part of this movement in a longer term as you said as a politician but I am not selfless enough. But I am sure there are enough people outside who are selfless enough to do this.

    Rajdeep: Shah Rukh it has been a pleasure talking to you. The words you have said today echo across the country and your thoughts need to be understood by every man. Thank you Shah Rukh.

    Shah Rukh: Thank you.

  169. #170 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 4:03 PM

    Excerpts from an article written about how Saif Ali Khan and Kareena Kapoor reacted to the Mumbai attacks:

    ……..Saif also slammed the terrorists for killing “innocent people” in the name of “god” or “religion”.

    “As an Indian and a Muslim, I feel like expressing my condemnation and outright disgust at any party killing innocent people in the name of god, Allah or whatever we choose to call him.

    “I am so worried that the whole religion (Islam) will be judged and condemned. There are strong communal feelings running through all strata’s of our society and I find it hard to defend the fact that there seems to be a Muslim hand behind every detonator. I feel a little scared as a Muslim now,” explained the actor.

  170. #171 by Sweetie on December 6, 2008 - 4:05 PM

    B F, B M = Barey miyan! LOL & i didn’t call u tat.

  171. #172 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 4:29 PM

    Javed A Khan

    I agree Indians feel threatened by Pakistan and that explains to an extent why they are united.

    However Pakistanis also feel threatened by India and in fact they probably feel more threatened because of India’s economy and emerging status as a global power.

    I think it is pathetic that despite this clear threat Pakistanis cannot be united together. Why does it have to be an extreme circumstance such as an earthquake or being blamed for terrorism that brings Pakistanis together?

    Part of the reason is because Pakistanis are still trying to find their place in this world and are still not at ease with themselves as to why Pakistan was made, whether it was a good or bad thing, how was it supposed to be governed etc.

    Clearly there is a segment within the educated masses that even considers the creation of Pakistan as a blunder. From an individual point of view I believe it was necessary at that time to fight for a separate homeland, but everything that happened since Partition has been a disaster.

    The dilemmas include:

    1) Who really wanted Pakistan? The Muslims of India or the British (to divide Muslims of the Subcontinent or to divide Muslims and Hindus)?

    2) Who was Pakistan made for? Was it made for the Muslims that presently reside in NWFP, Punjab, Sindh and Baluchistan? Was it made for all Muslims including Muslims from modern India and Bangladesh?

    3) If it was made for Muslims, was it meant to be governed in accordance with Sharia principles? If it should, who decides whether it should?

    4) The 1973 Constitution which is unfortunately considered to be “THE Constitution” was made under Bhutto’s time. There were many controversies in drafting that Constitution and Bhutto’s opponents complained that Bhutto used manipulation, force, threats and torture to have this Constitution drafted and compiled in this way. Lawyers of Pakistan took support of this Constitution because it (supposedly) invalidated the actions of Musharraf. However, that aside, many Pakistanis believe this to not be the Constitution because of the controversial means of attaining it. Unfortunately, as a corollary this means Pakistan does NOT have a proper, codified constitution that can act as the supreme source of law and can govern the relationship between various functions of the state. Hence, people in Pakistan at the top feel an incentive to do what they like. That is also because they are corrupt to the core, but there is so much animosity and biases that people can’t compile a single and proper codified document that dictates how the country should be properly governed.

    5) If aspects of law are governed by Sharia and if 95% of the population is Muslim, where does that leave religious minorities? What is their role in Pakistan?

    6) For half the period of the country’s history, it has been ruled by dictators. Some encouraging developments have transpired under dictators, yet as a result of dictatorship democracy has been prevented from blossoming. Musharraf was a benevolent dictator who was the answer Pakistan was looking for- a man who was a champion for religious and regional minorities, someone who took the harshest stance on corruption, someone who tried to encourage economic progress and education. It is quite funny when people call him a “dictator”, because under dictatorships minorities are abused, freedom of speech is thwarted, progress is halted and the economy narrows, rather than broadens. Under Musharraf the opposite happened, yet Pakistanis shot themselves in their own feet by getting rid of a man who was their only chance of rescuing Pakistan.

    It is questions like these we are still trying to answer today.

  172. #173 by Awas on December 6, 2008 - 7:48 PM

    khansahab

    I agree with very valid comments you made in your post 202.

    Let me add, even relatively newly formed state Bangladesh is more in terms with itself than Pakistan is after 60 years or so…has more settled look than Pakistan.

  173. #174 by Wasim on December 6, 2008 - 9:32 PM

    Awas

    I agree with your comment # 202 Bangladesh does look more settled.

    But we also have to accept the fact that they are geographically located far from the hotspot in the region,if they were located where we are they would have been going through the same.

    If you look 15 years back Pakistan was progressing faster than any country in the region all the economic indicators were healthy but then gradually the second round of Afghan war finally got to us and now Pakistan is burning and every other country is shining in the region.

    A lot of it depends on Pakistan’s foreign trade and Aid with the west which gets switched on and off,we never developed a resilience in our economy to fend of hard and soft economic sanctions from the west.

  174. #175 by Sweetie on December 6, 2008 - 10:22 PM

    Guys, i got a question. Do u guys ever get tired or bored by all the politics? or whatever u wanna call it…

  175. #176 by Sweetie on December 6, 2008 - 10:31 PM

    brrrrr .. Im cold hehe

  176. #177 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 10:35 PM

    Sweetie

    Girls or politics…..take your pick 🙂

  177. #178 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 10:36 PM

    BTW where is your picture Sweetie? Or have you started doing pardah?

  178. #179 by 420 on December 6, 2008 - 11:02 PM

    Omer
    On your post #203
    //If we look at it, the voices for independence are also growing in Balochistan, Kashmir, even places in South India.//

    Can you please clarify which place in south India is being referred here. To my knowledge, there is a region Telangana demanding for a separate state(a state within India) Even vidharbha, gorkhaland fall in the same category.

  179. #180 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 11:15 PM

    Indian media under fire for Mumbai coverage

    Friday, 05 Dec, 2008

    MUMBAI: Round-the-clock news coverage of the Mumbai attacks has made Indians nervous but analysts said on Friday it was also stoking anti-Pakistan public opinion and risks shaping policy before elections due by May, Reuters reports.

    Psychiatrists in India’s financial hub are reporting increased cases of panic attacks and insomnia after last week’s attacks, telecast live into millions of homes, by militants who killed 171 people.

    ‘There was no sense of balance or reasoning. The coverage was so jingoistic and nationalistic, they’ve pushed public opinion on Pakistan to a point of no return,’ said Atul Phadnis, chief executive of consultancy Media e2e.

    In the days since the attacks, the Indian flag is often used by broadcasters as a visual backdrop, with viewers’ text messages expressing anger at politicians or Pakistan ticking across the bottom of screens.

    There are more than 60 English and regional-language news channels fighting for the attention of 80 million Indian homes.

    Most were launched in the last three years when a booming economy helped drive advertising revenues. But the fierce competition has also meant that less experienced journalists have been thrust into the field, Manjula said.

    ‘This is a complex issue with various dimensions to it. Simply reducing it to ‘politicians are villains’ and ‘Pakistan is the enemy’ without discourse or debate is a deep failing of the media, but it does influence public opinion,’ said Manjula.

    Across the border, the Pakistani media decried what it saw as the undue haste with which India blamed Pakistan for the assault, but is not urging the government to take a particular line.

    The liberal Daily Times newspaper said in an editorial on Friday the distrust and hostility engendered by ‘black-and-white’ media opinion on both sides would block proper communication.

    The News, another English-language daily, said in an editorial on Thursday an outbreak of jingoism in Indian media was being matched by only a slightly less severe one in Pakistan.

    ‘We need the media to tread a cautious line, support our government in its efforts to take the heat out of the situation and not to inflame our already tinder-box population,’ it said.

  180. #181 by khansahab on December 6, 2008 - 11:51 PM

    Varun

    I watch “The Simpsons” regularly and in that show they are often making fun of Lords Ganesh and Shiva.

    I want to make an exception here however. When the Western media or public makes fun of Hindu symbols or gods, they do it merely for “fun” because they find Hindu mythology and symbolism very fascinating or amusing. This is not an excuse though because they should be more sensitive.

    However their main purpose when ridiculing Muslim beliefs or symbols is to propagate hatred. The cartoons created and published in Holland were based on complete hatred for Islam and its Prophet (PBUH).

    I don’t feel good discussing this, but in one picture he was portrayed as a terrorist and in another he was insulted in a sexually offensive way.

  181. #182 by Varun Suri on December 6, 2008 - 11:53 PM

    I won’t go any further in detail to discuss the Cartoons. The point i wanted to make was lot of people without seeing or knowing anything properly also would start obecting to it just to show their support or strengthen one belief.

  182. #183 by Sweetie on December 7, 2008 - 1:13 AM

    B F, comment 211; Ummm u guys can talk about girls!
    214; B F konsa pardha nasheen hei? Name ya pic?

  183. #184 by Sam on December 7, 2008 - 3:02 AM

    Its really sickening to see which way the debate went, began with cricket , went to India Pak politics and now the religious symbols of Hindus and Muslims….

    Guys, can you just accept one thing that Pakistan has being playing double game in this entire episode. Its being hit by Taliban in its troublesome ready to go independent NWFP and on the other hand it breeds Jaish, LeT, Harkat-ul-Ansar and many such outfits against India.

    Its a dangerous fireball game which one day would eat Pakistan. ISI and the Army — the rogues 🙂

    Think about it. Aint you guys fed up of everyday blasts in your own country ? Yesterday it was Peshawar, right.

    Get your house in order first, the Indians shall get that as well. If you have humanity as you guys claim, then think of how barbaric those killings were in mumbai and god forbid if they happen in your country would you still say the same ?

    And Pakistan media has got a good joker in Zaid Ahmad (or whoever)…we get hearty laughs on seeing his rants, much similar to what Izaj Butt Saheb says!!
    *******

    MODERATOR SAYS:

    Praveen, thank you for your kind comments. Since you are from Hyderabad, besides speaking Telugu you must also be knowing some Urdu, right? Hence there is something called conscience if you have any, then take a peep in your own “GIRAYBAAN” I hope you know what it means and see if there is any conscience in it?

    I hope you have seen the latest video, which we will soon post here on the blog it shows how a few Muslim students in Mumbai are being battered by a mob of Hindu students as if they are the terrorists! Since you guys believe that those involved in Mumbai carnage are from Pakistan, then what is the reason of beating them to death?

    How ironic that a force of about 20 police officers standing 15 meters from the scene are watching them and allowing them to beat those poor innocent Indian Muslims students and, for what? Just because they are Muslims? That is why people say, India fails to protect its own citizens.

  184. #185 by Sam on December 7, 2008 - 7:42 AM

    The reports of Muslim students being beaten up in India are very false and are being part of mischief plotted by anti Indian media in some neibhouring country!!

    So now the real intentions of this blog are clear huh, the anti – India campaign!! Dudes why do u forget that we as a country have more MUSLIMS than entire Pakistan and they are very much INDIANS than being Muslims!!

    Why dont u go and watch the video of protests by indian muslims against this state sponsered terrorism in India where 7 innocent Muslims returning from Haj were killed ? u d get an answer where does the loyalty of Indian Muslims lie — to their own state or to the state which kills its own citizens (example : Peshawar, Islamabad Mariott, Karachi, Bhutto killing etc etc)…

    grow up guys, have a life beyond hating India..live a good life with prosperity, love, no hatred and without INDIA…can you guys do that ? I can see one of the Khan saheb dudes posting inflammatory headlines (manufactured obviously) out here when they are not relevant to the matter — CRICKET..

    and i thought it was a CRICKET blog!! And eveb if we play against you, dont you guys think we would white wash you 3-0, 5-0 and 1-0 in Tests, ODIs and T20s…..Name me any world class PLAYER in Pakistan ranks except Younis Khan ?

  185. #186 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 10:19 AM

    Sam

    It’s a shame you perceive me as a biased person although I am the one who tries to encourage India-Pakistani harmony the most on this blog.

    The headlines I post are usually from either Hindustantimes or The Dawn. If you think they have been “manufactured”, how about you contact those newspapers yourself?

    The immature and uncouth way you have written makes it seem like you are still into comic books and maybe those racist and inflammatory magazines published by Shiv Sena or extremist Hindu parties.

  186. #187 by Wasim on December 7, 2008 - 11:31 AM

    Varun

    I never mentioned anything about the protests resulting from those cartoons and I never said that violent protests were justified.

    I only quoted that incident when you accused that only Muslims are intolerant and they also react to incidents which happen outside their respective geographical boundaries as a result I quoted a few examples from the Jewish world and Christian world to prove my point but you very intelligently twisted the argument toward another issue and ignored the issue under discussion.

    Violence and intolerance deserve nothing but condemnation but it would be hypocrisy of the highest order if those who instigate such acts receive no condemnation and a blind eye is turned toward them in the name of freedom of speech.

    You don’t have to tell me how much tolerant India is religiously, I have grown up reading tales of Hindu/Muslim riots and now every now and then I read about violence against Christians just in the month of August their were more than 200 cases of violence against Christians were reported, I will not post any details or links to prove my point as it is common knowledge.

    But having said that not all Indians are intolerant a vast majority of educated Indians truly believe in non-violence and secularism as visioned by Gandhi Ji.

    Same way a vast majority in the muslim world doesn’t believe in violence but its just that the world doesn’t want to acknowledge this fact and just want to see what they want to see.

  187. #188 by Wasim on December 7, 2008 - 11:44 AM

    Varun

    “You are wrong if you think India always had good relations with America. There was a time in the 70’s when American companies like Coca-Cola and Ibm were kicked out of India by a highly ’socialist’ government. Kissinger, Nixon until Reagan they were all the same. Throughout the best part of last Century, certainly until the end of the Cold War India and US were never a natural ally nor a partner in any of their missions.”

    India and Pakistan both have enjoyed intermittent relationship with America,India from time to time flirted with the west but never committed itself in a full relationship during the cold war, first the relations blossomed during the Korean War but in 1956 the relations became cold because of the Suez canal incident.

    India’s relations again flourished with US in 1962 due to the Sino-Indian war when America sent the shipment of weapons made for and paid by Pakistan to India, the US also offered to take India under nuclear Umbrella against China. The Sino-Indian War ended in a week but the weapons which were made for Pakistan were used against Pakistan in 1965, you can still see some of those War relics in Lahore.

    India was the major recipient of US aid during that period.The relations thawed between India and US because of the efforts of US after the 65 war to settle the Kashmir dispute between India-Pakistan.

    India moved away from US but economic relations remained between the two countries.

    In August 1971 India made several pacts with USSR to counter Pakistan.

    The Americans during this period were not interested in the region as they had problems in the middle east and Vietnam,in 1974 India tested the nuclear device U.S. nonproliferation measures automatically were implemented against India.

    The situation of disinterest changed after the Soviet Union’s invasion of Afghanistan in 1979.And Pakistan gained the status of front line state against communism, the US used Pakistan during the whole war and Pakistan became the major recipient of US aid.During this time the economic relations with India continued the relations of Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi Governments remained cordial with the US but no relations developed at a strategic level India already had USSR as its major strategic partner.

    Soon after the cold war ended in 1991 relations between India and US opened up and sanctions were imposed on Pakistan, both India and Pakistan tested nuclear weapons again in 1998 and again sanctions were imposed.Clinton administration discriminated on the nuclear issue against Pakistan and his relations with India were warmer than Pakistan.

    During the Kargil war US supported India, something they never did with Pakistan on the Siachin issue. Pakistan remained under sanctions until 2001 US once more needed Pakistan to deal with Taliban and Al-qaeda the sanctions were gradually lifted but US maintained its relations with India at another level and saw India as a long term Partner whereas Pakistan is being used temporarily.

    India soon after the disintegration of USSR warmed up with US to achieve its goal of earning a permanent seat of the security council and become a major power in the region, India also opened up its economy in 1991 and US became India’s 2nd largest trade partner.India hopes that the US will help it become a major Power in Asia that could rival China.

    To meet that end India wants to become a second tier nuclear state and modernize its delivery systems and Missile defense.

    Here’s the brief history of Indo-US relations I could only concise it this much and missed a few details, but looking at the History on very few occasions Pakistan had better relations with US than India I would say only during the Afghan War.

  188. #189 by Wasim on December 7, 2008 - 11:55 AM

    Sam

    You really represent the “tolerant India” of which Varun is so passionately giving examples.

  189. #190 by Sam on December 7, 2008 - 12:36 PM

    Yeah Wasim and Khan, we gotta tolerant of a country that sends barbaric people to kill 200 innocents in our country and then refuses to accept that they came from your country……

    Khan, i know what headlines you pick up from and what u make out of them. I am not into any kind of comic world, but you live in a denial….You are obsessed with failures of your country as state and are bothered about ur failures to come up to the grip of your country s present state 🙂

    Comic world is right there dear Khan….U guys watch our movies, u guys love our actresses, and then u send / train ppl who are called terrorists to bomb us and then even call them stateless citizens.

    Wow Khan, we shud laugh and clap at this yeah ? And the parties you quote aint racist or inflamattory as u perceive.

    U guys have a cloudy and hazy vision. Obsessed with HATRED against India and u talk of harmony ? Is this a joke ? Talk peace and send terrorists to our land and then say u r victims too ? Aint ur own guys killing ur own countrymen ?

    Lal masjid , Karachi, Peshawar, Benazir Bhutto killing, Musharraf, Zardari, Sharif, Gilani , Marriott bombings….Doesnt all this put u into deep anger or outrage that this is bringing ur country a bad name ? But then do u guys think about the COUNTRY ?

    And anyways the talk of harmony is all bullshit unless Pakistan stops this terror implant in India….Can it ever ? The answer we all know…..

  190. #191 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 12:52 PM

    Sam

    Don’t be so delusional. No Pakistani knows any Pakistani that is willing to take an innocent’s life. Simple as that. As to where these terrorists are coming from and who is training them, your guess is as good as mine. You are so confused because on one hand you are accepting we are victims of terrorism like you are, yet on the other hand you are calling us terrorists.

    We watch your movies and that is one of the reasons why your entertainment sector is always making pro Pakistan statements. Your producers and entertainment companies are desperate to legalise filming of Indian movies in Pakistan because they know that will transform Bollywood from a loss-making industry to a profit-making industry. Look at the lengths Mahesh Bhatt has gone to promote ties between India and Pakistan so that Indian movies can be filmed in Pakistan. He even took the flop actress Meera on so his ambitions of Indian movies being filmed in Pakistan can be achieved.

    Educated people in Pakistan prefer English movies because they make more sense and are less paindoo than your Bollywood movies. In fact I watch most Indian movies to have a laugh at their paindooness. You need to watch an Indian movie seriously to find out how underdeveloped and paindoo India still is, I am sorry but that’s a fact.

    As for your actresses, the only reason we “like” them is because we can SEE them and they are easier to “discover”. We can relate to them because they appear in Hindi movies, a language we can understand. If we could relate to and understand Greek, Italian and Arab cultures, we would prefer watching their actresses.

    Trust me if you see our girls from Lahore you eyes will pop out. I know many Indians who just watch matches held in Pakistan to see the girls. Other than that Indians also like Pakistani music; most Pakistani artists that have gone to India have been very successful.

    What makes us most angry and disappointed is when we genuinely want to discuss peace and harmony with you people, but you take the wrong meaning and start blaming us for hatred. You are the one that needs to grow up.

    Hatred breeds hatred and it’s up to you whether to respond to our peace building measures with love or hate.

  191. #192 by Varun Suri on December 7, 2008 - 12:53 PM

    Sam,

    If you are a teenager, you can learn from Abdul how to post a comment.

    If you are a grown up adult then maybe someone needs to guide you how to write and post comments without hurting anyone’s sentiments.

    The difference between this Blog and the numerous other Blogs which discuss India-Pakistan issues is that we simply avoid using language and attitude as you have used and shown. Because with this kind of attitude you can never really communicate openly and free from bias. I really pity for people like you with their one sided views.

    You are a typical product/result of the Uncouth “Indian Media” , which seems to be the only source of your information.

    Next time you post a comment, atleast try and bother to scroll up and see the Civil mannner in which people have discussed some of the very sensitive issues. If you can’t learn anything from that then there is no need for you to spit poison in your comments.

    This Blog is not owned by ISI or Pakistani Government, infact the ownwers are not even in Pakistan. SO Stop Generalising and for a change write something new!!

    Wasim@ 226,227,228

    You have missed my whole point completely!!!

    1.I a not trying to give you examples of which Religion is better or not, In my view all are the same, but my point was that just-like you without really knowing about the Danish Cartoons or the Dutch Film-maker straightaway jump to a conclusion and form an Opinion there are several other people like you Muslim,Hindu, Christian, and other religions who are always looking for examples to confirm or validate the already reach conclusion they have in their mind!!

    2. If you say you have grown up reading tales of Hindu-Muslim riots, I have witnessed them while growing up!! and there is a hell lot of difference between reading and seeing it with your own Eyes.

    3. I am ready to acknowledge the fact that just like any other Religion majority of the muslim world does not believe in Violence but my only point is unless until Muslims in the whole Islamic World whether it is the Arabs, Turks, Persians, South-Asia or South-East Asia continue to remain in this state of Self-denial (that there is some kind of problem) then this problem of extremism will only worsen.

    3. “I am agree” with most of the things you have written while narrating the history of India-US relationship. But one thing we will have to agree that it is only in this Century i.e. 2000 that this relationship has really materialised otherwise it was one confused relation.

    4. You say:- “You really represent the “tolerant India” of which Varun is so passionately giving examples.”

    It’s a pity that you only need 1 person like “Sam” to form you opinion about 1.2 Billion people. The whole point of explaining you about the Dutch Filmaker and Danish Cartoons was to make you realise that sometimes you can form your opinion quite easily and you have confirmed that fact very nicely by saying this one sentence.

  192. #193 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 12:58 PM

    Varun/Amit P/Kunal/Pawan

    Since Pakspin days I have advocated for peace with India and I have given India all the due respect for its progress, secularism and emerging superpower status.

    I completely believe you guys to be intelligent and mature, which is why you can definitely understand that Pakistanis can also be patriotic and their sentiments can also be affected if someone insults them or calls them “terrorist”.

    I have dealt with Sam appropriately but please don’t let my comments come in the way of our mutual desire to promote peace and love between Pakistan and India.

  193. #194 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 1:16 PM

    Varun

    OK, even if we accept Muslims are in self denial, how do we go about showing it to the world?

    Terrorism is not something that is preached in the open. No one that I know, knows any terrorist or extremist. No one that this other person may know as well, does not know any terrorist.

    It’s less than 5% of the people who may have extremist or terrorist intentions. How do we find them and eliminate them? Especially when they know what they are doing is unacceptable to the majority and hence they are planning these attacks in complete secrecy?

    That is the reason why we need greater solidarity from India and other nations. The same people who attacked Mumbai have been trying to destabilise Pakistan for about a decade. They are the enemies of Pakistan as much as they are the enemies of India. You might say here that they are different people because there is a specific anti Indian group in Pakistan, but my response to that is that all terrorists are the same because all human life that they perish is equal and the same. The life of the Muslim who dies in a blast in Swat or Peshawar is as important and equal as the life of the Hindu who dies in Mumbai ( and let us remind ourselves, just under a half of those killed in Mumbai were actually Muslims).

    Terrorists have no religion and they are all the same, whether their purpose is to destabilise India or Pakistan.

  194. #195 by Sam on December 7, 2008 - 2:11 PM

    Its shit and rubbish to even discuss the issue with you guys who depict a typical Pakistani attitude — backward, hatred, spiteful and worth -100 rupees. ROTFL…

    Girls in Pakistan are heavenly ? Clad in burkahs and subject to tortures and inhuman fatwas from mullahs — thats all ur country is all about…Yeah!!

    we aint ready to buy ur theory that terrorists are common enemies of India, Pakistan. wot u own bred in ur backyard is now good enuf to eat u up…

    And yes Mahesh Bhatt is an asshole whome we dont bother about. He is a loser.

    Indian movies are paindoos ? Wow man, as if Lollywood movies are real great stuff….Do they even exist ? Laughable dialogues…Everything about ur country is ridiculous!!

    Khan dude, it hurts right when some one calls u terrorist state rt…It hurts us too when some disillusioned terrorists from ur country bomb us and our people die….

    Did you notice that USA is all set to declare ur country as terrorist state….

    Get over India obsession guys. Have a life…Get over this Hindu Muslim issue. that wont get u money or food to sustain urself!!

    think abt wot fundamentalism or extremism cud hv…….

    call me names, but deep within u know what state of ur country is and more u deny it more u become objects of ridicule!!

    MODERATOR SAYS:

    Sam

    If it is “shit & Rubbish” to discuss with us, then why are you indulging yourself in deep shit? You seems to be sitting on the pile of your own. Varun is Indian and he is not talking like you, you need to grow up boy! Have a break and have a kit-kat.

  195. #196 by Rehan Khan on December 7, 2008 - 2:34 PM

    How can u people let terrorists like Sam write on your blog.

  196. #197 by Varun Suri on December 7, 2008 - 3:11 PM

    khansahab,

    If MR.SAM is unable to control himself & his emotions and continue to use the spiteful language he is using, just for the sake of the purity of this blog, I urge you to not to give publicity to people like him, as due to their ignorance, impatience and fake superiorty complex not only they try to disturb the good harmony we have maintained here in this blog but also make a fool of themselves by talking in such an un-civilised manner!!!

    Sam,

    You will find thousands of such websites and blogs where you can argue with your brothers in your kind of language. It is my sincere request to you that if you want to continue posting on this website then please try to maintain some decorum and do not try to appear as someone with a mind-set as you’ve described “backward, hatred, spiteful and worth 100 Rupees”

    What are you trying to acheive by saying all this here? If you are really hurt by Bombay’s events, is this the best way you can help your Country by antagonising more people against yourself and your country?
    and for God’s sake, if you claim yourself to be an Indian, stop using this fake American uncouth slang words like “”ain’t”” , “”Dude””. I think you are so much immersed in your Americanism that you say that they are about to declare Pakistan a Terrorist State?Guess What Mr.Sam? Uncle Sam is the biggest Terrorist this World has seen since 1945!!! Who has given them the moral authority to decide who is a Terrorist and who is not?? F*****G Hypocrites!!

    Go and have a McChicken with Large Pepsi at your nearest McDonald’s , watch an American flick, hump your girl, if you have any and go to sleep. This place is not meant for people like you.I am ashamed to see you speak for my country.

  197. #198 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 7, 2008 - 3:31 PM

    New strategies, new turns and new twists everyday. Today’s latest top story on the BBC is:

    MILITANTS TORCH AFGHAN SUPPLIES

    Trucks and Humvees destroyed in the attack.
    More than 90 lorries supplying US forces in Afghanistan have been set on fire in a suspected militant attack in north-west Pakistan, police say……….. link below.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7769758.stm

    The only route for the supplies for the US army is through Pakistan that’s because Afghanistan is a landlocked country and Iran will never allow them to use their port or borders. Think of the expression, “Paani may rekh ker magar much say bair?”

    I don’t understand why India needs to has 27 consulates in Afghanistan? In Pakistan other than their embassy in Isb, the Karachi consulate keeps minimum staff as they don’t issue visas and they are always ready to shut down. Also, why do they have 10,000 troops in Afghanistan when they are not among the peace keepers?

    I am asking the above questions from Varun after reading the Indo-US relationship exposé he has detailed above. I remember after 911 when the US govt. asked Musharraf Govt for using Pakistan’s airbases India jumped ahead and Mr. VajPayee said, “Sir you can use ours.”

    To that above comment from VajPayee, Arundhati Roy wrote in Guardian, “this is a time when India needs to look into their own backyard and, Mr. Vajpayee is gyrating his hips to attract the Americans only to get a brick on their face.”

    And Jang newspaper published a hilarious cartoon, showing Bush, Mush and Payee. Bush asking Mush, “Hum ko tumharay Udday (Hawai Adday or airports) chahiyeh.” And before Mush could say anything, VajPayee who is dressed in a saree sans blouse like a “Bai” standing in front of a Kothaa and saying, “Sir aap hamaray Udday istemaal kerain” Bush replies, bewaqoof humko yae Udday (kothay) nahee Hawai Udday chahiyeh.

    I dunno how many of you got the joke?

    Arundhati Roy’s latest video on Mumbai attacks have been removed from the website because Indians do not want to hear from her and some of the comments are still there asking her to go to Peshawar, wear a Hijaab and stay there. I have no clue what she said, but she has definitely pissed off many Indians like Baby Sam.

  198. #199 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 7, 2008 - 3:47 PM

    With reference to my comment #237, I have found another website from where Arundhati Roy’s interview can be heard … here is the link:

    YOU ALL must listen to this, she is so outspoken and no wonder why some of the radical Hindu fundamentalists hate her.

    I have been reading her articles in Guardian and in other newspapers for the last 7 years and she has always impressed me with her openness and fair comments.

    BRAVO ARUNDHATI….. you are a brave lady!

  199. #200 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 3:49 PM

    I’ve just seen the programme on NDTV India called “After Change” hosted by the very able Barkha Dutt, the Indian journalist.

    Senior Indian politicians and diplomats were discussing how India should deal with Pakistan. There were also members of the Indian public who were invited to give their opinions. Following are my observations:

    The common Indian man feels very incensed at the moment. People genuinely believe Pakistan has not done enough to assist India in the elimination of terrorists.
    Most members of the audience said that India should stop negotiating with Pakistan and must now confide more in the USA. India must befriend USA and ask the USA to pressurise Pakistan. I was very shocked to hear the view of a young man who was rescued from The Taj and who had seen the whole situation with his own eyes. He became emotional and said that India should pledge its support to the USA in Afghanistan. Americans should go back to America and India should deal with the Afghanis and Pakistanis. Basically, he was suggesting the idea of a war.

    There was an Italian journalist present who said that the reaction he saw from the Indian media and public immediately after the attack was “fascist”. He said that Pakistan itself is a victim of terrorism and you can’t achieve peace by irrational feelings and emotions. He said the very objective of the terrorists is to make India and Pakistan fight each other.

    However, some Indian diplomats and politicians were more calm. They said what is needed is external pressure on Pakistan and more dialogue.

    I am not making this comment to provoke sentiments of people like ABC or Sam. What my intention is to let people know that whereas it is acceptable that Indians can become very angry and emotional if they feel “Pakistanis” are causing mayhem in their country, this anger and emotion has to be suppressed if peace has to be achieved between two countries.

    If you don’t want to listen to Pakistanis, at least think about that Italian journalist who was making comments from a completely neutral perspective.

  200. #201 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 3:53 PM

    Javed
    Please do not take people like arundhati roy into high esteem. These are the “human rights” people, who speak for the state of publicity.

    I saw a pakistani video, where Mr.Ram Jethmalani gave his “views” and it was being respected. If you look at the high profile cases for which he argued, you know which side of the law he is.

    Some of the so called “secular” leaders, human rights activits seem to talk so rational. True colours come out when their siblings or one of them get killed. Mark my words

  201. #202 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 3:54 PM

    Varun, Khansahab
    Both of you deserve a pat on the back, the most rational guys when it comes to indo-pak topic

  202. #203 by Sweetie on December 7, 2008 - 4:06 PM

    Hmmmm, See B F, Thats why i said i’ll let u guys pick girls! & yeh, im forced to wear my PARDAH lollll

  203. #204 by Abdul on December 7, 2008 - 4:26 PM

    Eid and Haj mubarak to all muslim bloggers. Enjoy tomorrow and I suppose most of you are taking a day of work to celebrate the ocassion and socialise with friends and family as it’s a time of hapinnes for all and also time to remember the needy and donate our Zakkah which can go along way in people’s hearts.

    Sam,regarding the Pakistan team ipart from Y Khan at the moment is a crisis . But wait for our ICL big names to return and then I’m sure we’ll be up there with the best in the world.

    Guys if you know a little about Adil Rashid don’t you think he deserves the opportunity to play for England regardless of experience and age. I feel NOW is the ideal time to grant him a debut.

  204. #205 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 4:47 PM

    When I was watching this programme hosted by Barkha Dutt the Indian politicians and diplomats were also asked about Musharraf. That is because Asma Jehangir, the Pakistani social activist (stupid woman) was also being interviewed simultaneously and she said India was wrong to give Musharraf “princely” treatment when he visited India, because he was a military dictator.

    Firstly he went to India as the President of Pakistan, he did not go as any odd Pakistani or a member of the Pakistan armed forces.

    All of the Indians were unanimous in saying that Musharraf was the most intelligent and competent Pakistani leader; if anyone could have sorted this problem with terrorism and if anyone could have stablised relations with India, it would have been Musharraf.

    420

    Thanks for supporting mine and Varun’s stance. I think both Varun and I realise that only peace, love and respect can improve relations between Pakistan and India.

    On and official as well as unofficial level, India is arguably the world’s only multi ethnic and secular country that tries to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism. Although Indians have been critical of Pakistan, most of them don’t point a finger at the religion. If you read the British, American and Australian press you will see they have started adopting a different stance completely to terrorism.

    Hence, as a Muslim I am grateful to India to some extent and Indians need to HELP Muslims because if any non Muslim country in the world can declare Islam to not be associated with terrorism, it is India. Having a 14% Muslim population, Muslim neighbours and a history of Muslim influence has made modern India realise more than other non Muslim countries, that nothing is wrong in the teachings of Islam and it only teaches goodness and peace like other religions.

    Whatever happens, my request to the Indians is to please help Muslims as much as you can and make a point to disassociate Islam with terrorism.

  205. #206 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 4:58 PM

    Khansahab
    The reason why the peace within India cant be achieved is simple. We have two sets of radical people, and one set of more opportunistic people. The rational guys are driven out of politics.

    Why does the MIM cry in support of arrested millitants? why does VHP,BJP want to fiddle with sadhvi’s case? and why does current govt delay the hanging of afzal?

    I guess that explains it all. But again, the wounds of babri,godhra,gujarat are not forgotten, which rekindle the masses.

    My idea is that a no-mans land be created btwn indo-pak. any1 who enters that zone will be blown up

  206. #207 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 5:01 PM

    I may sound as one more radical, but I feel always a proud Indian than a Hindu. I wish every indian feels the same irrespective of their religion. The Islamic law, hindu act etc should not be the LAW. One law, one India

  207. #208 by Sam on December 7, 2008 - 5:03 PM

    Varun is like Arundhati Roy who have no souls and are unaffected by this severest human tragedy in Mumbai. Varun’s views aint Indian and his views dont represent that of country….Entire country is in outrage and this few unIndians who are messengers of Congress dont have it in them to accept the reality

    i feel sorry for Varun Sorry(Suri)..that he has become a pseudo Indian by interacting with this sissy candy eating Pakistanis sitting outside terror haven 🙂

    Moderator and Rehan Khan, hailing from TERRORIST COUNTRY AHA….Go have some candys guys and stop painting Indians in bad light….We give an rat and a pig’s ass to likes of Varun Suri and Arundhati Roy….they are pseudo Indians!!

    And guys have a life beyond this….Stop promoting terrorism and stop justyfing the terrorism…

    BTW here it is the report which says Ajmal Kasav (whom Zaid Ahmed calls Amar SIngh :), Varun bhai iske liye kya kahenge aap?) is from Pakistan :

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Kasav_belongs_to_Pakistan_UK_paper/articleshow/3805416.cms

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/UK/2611_terrorists_trained_by_Pak_army_navy_instructors_Report/articleshow/3804856.cms

    Go see this and now put ur head in mud and eat it!!!

    MODERATOR

    Sam:

    After spitting so much venom against Varun, you have the cheek and the audacity to call him “Varun Bhai?” All I can say is you are worst than any radical fascist.

  208. #209 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 5:11 PM

    Peshawar ‘resilient’ despite tragic bombing

    By Yousuf Nasim

    Saturday, 06 Dec, 2008

    KARACHI: In the wake of a devastating car bomb attack that struck Peshawar’s Qissa Khwani district on Friday leaving at least 28 dead and over 100 injured, the city’s resident’s remain resilient.

    Although the attack targeted a busy shopping district just days before the religious festival of Eidul Azha, many residents of the city were unfazed by the attack. Mr Arbab Sajjad, a Peshawar-based sales executive, referred to the incident as ‘life as usual’ and concluded that it had little impact on daily life and pre-Eid shopping.

    Mr Imtiaz Gilani, former provincial minister and Vice Chancellor of the University of Engineering and Technology, agreed with this assessment, saying that terrorist attacks have become ‘a constant routine’ for the people of northwest Pakistan. ‘Any other people in any other place would have buckled. The fact that we remain defiant is due to the bravery of the people, the army, the paramilitary and the police,’ he says.

    While the blast did not demoralize all Peshawar residents, the nearby presence of a Shia imambargah led many to speculate on the possibility of a sectarian aspect to the attack. Some government officials, such as provincial chief minister Haider Khan Hoti, even raised the possibility of the involvement of ‘foreign hands’.

    Mr. Gilani dismisses the idea of foreign involvement as speculation. Similarly, Mr Rahimullah Yousufzai, a senior journalist and security analyst, points out that shifting the blame to foreign perpetrators may be in the government’s interest to defuse any sectarian tension arising from the attack.

    Mr Yousufzai also questions whether the Peshawar blast was truly motivated by sectarianism. ‘It is not possible to say with certainty that this was a sectarian attack,’ he says.

    Although acknowledging that ‘many of those who perished were Shia,’ he notes that the blast occurred at some distance from the imambargah. ‘If this were sectarian, the car would perhaps have been parked much closer,’ he says. However, he stressed that ‘the sectarian aspect needs to be probed further.’

    Mr Yousufzai is dismissive of the possibility that this attack could spark sectarian unrest in Peshawar: ‘Judging from the past, that does not seem likely,’ he says. ‘Sectarian violence has almost become the norm in Dera Ismail Khan and Kurram Agency but that generally remains confined and does not spread beyond that.’

    Indeed, locals remain more concerned about the security implications of the attack. ‘This is a complete failure on the part of our front-line intelligence services,’ says Ms. Bushra Gohar, an Awami National Party (ANP) MNA.

    When asked about how such attacks on Peshawar can be controlled in the future, Ms. Gohar was of the opinion that ‘the ongoing operation in the tribal areas needs to be critically analysed.’ ‘One of the problems in Pakistan is that there is never any high-level accountability for such incidents,’ she continued.

    But Ms. Gohar cautions against premature finger-pointing. ‘We are in a warlike situation,’ she says. ‘There are many elements who wish to take advantage of the current unrest in the province and it would be a mistake to jump to conclusions.’

  209. #210 by khansahab on December 7, 2008 - 5:12 PM

    This attack in Peshawar happened in the area where Dilip Kumar and Shahrukh Khan’s families are from.

  210. #211 by Wasim on December 7, 2008 - 5:16 PM

    Varun

    Muslims are not in self denial, as I said before most of these conflicts are imposed on us, and the world does not care to look at the cause they are only focused at the reaction because it suits them, the tolerance you are expecting doesn’t exist any where in the world its against human nature.

    In any conflict both sides are bound to hurt each other, why an idealistically tolerant response is expected from the oppressed Muslims,is the doctrine of preemption reflects tolerance, or the response after 9/11 was tolerant and proportionate.
    Charity begins at home.

    I think the western world was delusional when they expected that after fulfilling their objectives all the mercenaries will go home, we never created this menace and should not be hold responsible for it.
    You reap what you sow its simple as that.

    The world is a might is right society,and those who have the might want not only obedience but also they want to be loved and worshiped for their Ideals and have zero tolerance for any opposing views,isn’t it the definition of Fascism, any regime which is not obedient should be thrown out, any country who is not obedient should be declared evil,rogue and a failed state.Does this policy reflects tolerance?

    My one line of sarcasm incited a negative response from you and yet we expect tolerance on such a grand scale from countries who have literally been set on fire. Its easy to talk the talk but very difficult to walk the walk.

    As regards India and Pakistan without total sincerity and honesty with each other no peace will come to the region.Blame games, tit for tat will continue as long as both sides are not honest and sincere with each other. And I am holding both countries responsible for the failure of the peace process.

  211. #212 by Sweetie on December 7, 2008 - 5:17 PM

    Sam, Pakis are candy eating nation, which i suppose isn’t a bad thing unless u have cavities. Better candy eating, than ASS kissing like ureself!
    Two words for u, SHUT UP!

  212. #213 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 7, 2008 - 5:27 PM

    420 …….. On Arundhati Roy!

    I am not sure if you have read all her books or even her articles. Like I said, most Indians don’t like her work because she never hesitates to call a spade, a spade. In the above link that I have posted she said, “India has become the most cruel countries in the world.” And, that she is referring to the rise of the radical Hindu political parties like BJP, RRS, VHP, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal etc., who are dominating the political arena since the last 15 years or so.

    I agree with you if someone from Pakistan writes or say such things about Pakistan, I may not like it. That is because my patriotism comes first and rationality later. In fact in most cases the former clouds the later so much that one loose the capability to see the reality and they fail to recognize the truth. But, tell me is BJP not a Hindu Radical Party? If this is not correct, then we should not discuss this subject anymore. But, its a fact that they are. So, my question is which country on earth (at least the size of India which calls itself the biggest democracy in the world) had radical political party which ruled the country for so many years?

    I am sure you will not find an answer to my question, like you don’t like Arundhati’s comments, instead of appreciating what she said, you are saying, she is a human right activist and it is easy to for you to say about her: “True colours come out when their siblings or one of them get killed.”

    Based on your analogy why don’t you think its the same when the 70,000 odd Kashmiris killed by the Indian Army and Indian Border Security Forces over a decade or two? Or, the 3000 plus Indian Muslims were butchered, raped and slaughtered on the streets in Ahmadabad, Gujrat? Or, the 10,000 Sikhs that were killed in 3 days after Indira Gandhi was assassinated?

    Therefore, it is also very easy for someone to say, she is doing or saying that because she has not suffered the pain herself.

    She was not a human rights activists from her childhood, she has become one now after writing so many books and you should read about her life. She has faced severe hardships in her early life, like for 7 years of her early life she used to collect empty beer bottles and sell them for a living. In Goa she used to bake cakes and sell them. But, she never give up and pursued her career in writing.

    Coming from that humble background, she rose to the celebrity status and she is the first Indian woman to get the prestigious “Booker Prize” and a million dollar book deal for the book “God of Small Things.”

    I g2g, will write later.

    Ps.

    Sam, if we were so intolerant, then we would not have allowed your comments here, just think about that. Anyways, keep writing as long as you don’t use profanity its OK with us.

  213. #214 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 6:37 PM

    Javed

    70k kashmiris killed by armed forces: I really do not have much idea about the ground reality in kashmir. After going through various soruces, all I can say is there is no right, wrong. It changes from the perspective we look at. Time and again, i dont know why none speak for the kashmiri pandits.
    Also, lets speak rational here.Just like the 70k count, what is the count killed by pak supported terrorists?

    Coming to the gujarat issue, I am one of those who demanded for Modi’s HEAD rolling down. But again, do you know that it started with the killing of 50 Sadhus, and that it was preplanned.
    Imagine 50 mullahs burnt alive in Pakistan by Hindus, and tell me if the riots are going to be any less.
    FYI, modi was barred from entering my state, for a religious procession.

    The sikh riots: This is where i said “you will see the true colours”. The cong party which is supposed to be “secular” was exposed.And our “secular” people vote for this.

    The term “radical” is a very relative term. Just because some1 wears “secularism” on their sleeve, doesnt make them one.

    I WAS a hardcore BJP hater, not anymore as we see the true colours of every party. Do you know that in the oldCity in Hyderabad, people celebrate when India loses to Pakistan, holding the flag of Pakistan. They stopped doing that after RSS influence increased.

    //So, my question is which country on earth (at least the size of India which calls itself the biggest democracy in the world) had radical political party which ruled the country for so many years?//

    Please tell me which other democracy has people from minority community as president, primeminister, longest serving captain of the #1 sport.

    And it wasnt BJP which formed the govt, it was an alliance with socialist, regional parties. The people NEVER overwhelmingly voted for BJP.

  214. #215 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 6:40 PM

    Javed
    Please refer to the below URL. This is what i say, two sides of the coin. And please dont tell its the Kashmiris “fight for freedom” without “external” support

    http://www.kashmir-information.com/history/genocide.html

  215. #216 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 10:19 PM

    Omer
    The fact that Ms.Roy is from India and speaks against India cant be taken as unbiased.
    I do not know what exactly is an unbiased source. To me, the genocide is as much true as is the atrocities on kashmiri pandits.Its not that the pandits all of a sudden disliked kashmir , and left the place.

    When the individuals who break the law are arrested, there is always some1 who either plays the minority card and gets them released. Yes, we failed in both the fronts in that aspect.

    And for people, who think minorities are attacked in India , its TRUE.

    http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070022057

    In the name of art, MF Hussain has crossed the line way too much. In some of the temples, the art potrays nude people, but not nude gods/godess. I do not see a diff between him and the danish cartoonist. Yet still, he remains untouched. This happens in India!

  216. #217 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 7, 2008 - 10:22 PM

    420

    About Muslims celebrating Pakistan’s victory in cricket in the “Old City of Hyderabad” all I can say is its a very trivial thing. As far as I know Hyderabad is still a very peaceful city without any communal violence. If you quote me one verifiable incident like Ahmadabad, Kashmir, Assam, etc., I will send you a box of chocolate.

    Thats because my neighbour is from Hyderabad and very recently he was boasting by saying that, at least in Hyderabad there aren’t any communal riots because Muslims have a very stronghold in that city. Besides, they also have good relations with each other.

    Now, let me remind you about the 911 incident, as soon as the news of 911 spread in the sub-continent, theIndian TV channels started showing footage of Lahore where people were cheering, celebrating and distributing sweets and the Indian propaganda machine showed it throughout the day on several TV channels by saying, the whole world is condemning the attack whereas, Pakistanis are celebrating!!!

    The Fact was that footage was genuine BUT, the event was not 911, it was in 1998 when Pakistan announced they have successfully tested the nuclear explosion that people went berserk on the streets, it was a big achievement for Pakistan. When India did that in 1974, they also did the same.

    I have recently seen a very old TV footage of 1945 in black & white, when America nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki on both counts the whole American nation celebrated and went on to the streets in joy and raising slogans and some were saying we have taken the revenge of Pearl Harbour. Now, no one remembers how they called it a victory by killing and injuring more than a million Japanese by dropping A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

  217. #218 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 10:25 PM

    Javed
    This is what i said in my post 253

    //But again, do you know that it started with the killing of 50 Sadhus, and that it was preplanned.//
    I said it is “preplanned” and that is why there was fuel inside the train. Please dont tell me this was done by BJP. This is just like some1 saying Hemant karakare got killed bcos of his investigating hindu terrorists.

    I said time and again, Gujarat riots IS a shame for us, and we asked for Modi’s head.
    ********

    Javed’s reply

    420 …. you did mention it was pre-planed but you did not say who planned it? You accept that the fire started from within, right? So, don’t tell me there was a Mullah disguised as a Sadhu and he has done that? 🙂

  218. #219 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 10:34 PM

    Javed
    I am from a place where there is not an iota of communal disturbance. Lot of people from pak, bang come to my town for the festival below , and i am proud of that

    http://www.indusladies.com/forums/andhra-pradesh/34608-rottela-panduga-festival-nellore-exclusively.html

    You do not know how “peaceful” hyderabad was prior to 2000. I belong to that state. There used to be a curfew almost everyday , and now is the unofficial hub for the enemy within.

    Do not mistake me for one of those “radicals”. If you know the history of hyderabad, and the razakar riots during its annexure to India, you will know the background.
    *******

    Javed’s reply

    420
    ….. I couldn’t get any info from the link you’ve posted except that its a blog.

    As regards “Razakars,” I know from the history books that there were Telangana Razakars and Bangladeshi Razakars. Basically Razakars are volunteers and the riots that took place during 1947-48 in Hyderabad were almost negligible as compared to the riots in UP, Punjab on both sides of the border. At that time the emotions were high and anything was possible.

    Mir Laiq Ali and Qasim Rizvi reportedly mislead the Nizam who wanted an independent state and the Indian army’s police action was very swift and no bloodshed or lives were lost during the action and, Nizam had no choice but to surrender.

    Obviously owing to the geographical location it was not possible for him to create an independent state. Like Baluchistan wanted to be with India and in 1948 they even approached the Indian Govt. and British Raj to reconsider the decision and allow them to join India. So, what if Hyderabad thought of being independent? Kashmir wanted to be independent also, but did that happen?

    My neighbour’s relative is reportedly a very senior member of the faculty of Osmania University in Hyderabad and last year at his house I was able to meet this person who was visting then and I was invited. During the discussion he disclosed that the entire Urdu section of the Osmania University library was burnt down.

    Just the Urdu section? And, why was that? Because the Nizam, during his reign invited notable scholars, philosophers, scientists, poets (including Ghalib) and there was a lot of work done by them in Urdu like physics, chemistry, biology, maths everything was translated in Urdu. Obviously this was not acceptable to some and they burnt it. We will discuss this issue separately.

  219. #220 by 420 on December 7, 2008 - 10:35 PM

    Javed
    About the 911 tv footage, i dont have any idea as i was in a hostel without access to tv then. I am ashamed if that is the case!

    Javed’s reply

    420 …. at least you feel ashamed but, those who did that did not even apologize to the Pakistan government, in fact it was on the BBC Canada news later that the TV footage Indians were showing was not relevant to 911 but, it was their own celebration in successfully detonating the nuclear device.

  220. #221 by Varun Suri on December 7, 2008 - 11:27 PM

    khansahab@244,

    “I am absolutely agree”

    Javed, 420,

    My views on Arundhati Roy:-

    I am glad that you’ve started discussing about her because it is people like her who are constant reminders to anyone who doubts the democratic setup of India.The fact that a lot of people campaigning openly about the government policies and are not silenced or hidden like they do it in China or Saudi Arabia. It is because of people like her , Medha Patkar, Mahesh Bhatt, Shahi Imam of Delhi, Parts of RSS and BJP, and a lot of other kinds of dissidents who are able to continue to voice their opinions, should to a certain extent, silence the critics of India being a “Hindu-Hitler-Raj” than being a Democratic Country.

    Javed, I saw the link you posted and i fully admire the bravery of this women as you do.However i do not share the same enthusiasm in always liking what she has said or done in the past.Often i am irked by her defeatist and negative attitude about a lot of things happening in India. Maybe you have not seen the following interview of her’s with Karan Thapar who is a respected host on one of the Channels:

    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/mediapolice-collusion-is-a-threat-to-society/76234-3.html

    On the last page right at the end of the interview He also asks her Are you not exaggerating about your fears/views?

    If you totally lose your faith in the Country’s Government,Police or even Judiciary then by just being a Political Activist you can only acheive a bit of a publicity but no real good for the Country. To achieve that one has to inculcate the right values or thoughts right into the System and not just as an spectator comment at the situation like most of us. In simple words, In order to highlight the Badness happening in India, She has gone at extreme lengths to not only reject any Goodness coming out of it but also doing nothing but just talking and giving interviews.

    You say that:-

    So, my question is which country on earth (at least the size of India which calls itself the biggest democracy in the world) had radical political party which ruled the country for so many years?

    So many Years? In the 61 Year of Indian History only once BJP has come to Power for a Period of 5 Years and that to as 420 rightly pointed was not a Simple Majority but again a Co-alition with Regiional parties.Not all the members of BJP got together/ are in the party due to the philosophy of Hindu Extremism/Raj but many people joined the party due to their constant opposition to the Congress Dynasty and their Minority appeasing “DivideandRule” policies.

    Majority of the Indian middle class supported BJP due to this reason only but as there bubble of ‘India-Shining’ burst few years back we were back to a Congress Rule. So just in 5 Years the people of India kicked out the only Nationalist party which defeated Congress head-to-head since Independence.

    Even in Europe every country has a Nationalist Party, in a small country like Scotland also they have SNP.It is an inevitable element of any Democratic set-up to have Right-Wing voices, the examples of which are present in every developed country even now.

    While, I admit there is a problem of Hindu Extremism but at the same time we have other major problems of equal or more important measure which are also needed to be addressed with the same haste and attention.

  221. #222 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 8, 2008 - 12:27 AM

    Varun # 262

    Thanks for the “Devil’s Advocate” link, I remember reading that interview a few years ago but, reading it again has refreshed my memories. Also, BACAOZ you have asked me to go through it and I did. And, I wanted to see why your views are so clouded and you don’t appreciate her nagging negative attitude?

    To be very honest Varun, that guy, Karan Thapar was constantly trying to corner her like a shrewd journalist by posing a barrage of questions after questions and he was also provoking her to say something very serious against the police force and the media.

    But, she is so thorough and so cool that she did not let her emotions control her mind. Thapar, in the end did ask the question about exaggeration her fears but, she never budged that’s because she has a very clear perception and a very clean vision of what she wants and where she wants to see India – which is her country.

    How can you judge her patriotism if she speaks against the system or the political parties or the media? I just don’t like any of the current politicians in Pakistan, so does that make me a very unpatriotic person or a traitor? Come on, she is a real person she is not afraid of anyone and being a woman she has the guts to speak out the truth means a lot.

    Thapar was constantly threatening her indirectly be referring to the two powerful groups i.e., the police and the media. Do you really believe that Indian and Pakistani police are angels and whatever they do is flawless? Man, our police is one of the most corrupt institutions in the country and, the media? There is no standard of our journalism, they all have the same standards like that of the British Tabloid journalists, where ethics, morals and professionalism is lacking and they want to sell their stories for their mothers and sisters. So, lets not talk about these two institutions. They are “disgustipatingly” pathetic.

    Once again BRAVO Arundhati, she reminds me of Samar MinAllah, so tiny, fragile yet very brave and very strong, eager to face the giants and bring them down to their knees. We need more people like them.

    Let me tell you something. Our community here has built a big new mosque by pooling our own humble resources, earlier we used to pray outdoors in the parking lots on Fridays and on Eid days even while it was snowing. Recently, people at the mosque were talking about hiring a good, educated, bilingual Imam. I said, more than a Imam, we need a few good, educated, committed and dedicated social workers to look after the problems of the community.

    Because, the problems start from home and not from the mosque. I shocked almost everyone, but later many people came to me saying, that’s a very valid suggestion. The reason I said that was because in 99% cases both parents are working they don’t have much time to spend with their kids. If there is a good social programme which is moderate and more conducive to the local environment we are living in will create a balance and harmony in the community as well as the environment. Hence, what the parents and the social workers can give to their children, no Imam can ever give that.

  222. #223 by 420 on December 8, 2008 - 3:48 AM

    Javed
    Refer to below text for what i was talking about

    Bara Shahid Dargah, Darga of 12 shahids, 12 tombs of worship, situated at Nellore Tank/lake, a 3rd big and beautiful lake in Nellore Dt. Every year Festival of Bread/ Rottela Panduga/ Roti ki eed happens in the month of Moharram ( Muslim calender); more than 5 lack devoties of all relegion attened the festival from all over the world. Red Darga/ Lal darga also situated in the compound of 12 shahid dargah. The Bread’s offered in the festival will bring luck of their desire/choise to devoties, the variety of bread offered for example- Marriage roti/bread, Employment/naukri roti, Health roti, children/bachchonki/pillala rotti/pregnancy bread, MLA roti, MP roti, Wealth/ Business roti—– etc.,
    ******

    Javed’s reply

    420 … OK, I got it, it was difficult for me to comprehend from that blog. Its “Shaheed” not, Shahid, because both have different meanings. Shaheed means martyr and Shahid means witness.

    You see in India there are many places or Dargaz like that 12 Shaheed Darga, for e.g., Ajmer Shareef, Nizamuddin Aolia, Yousuf Sahab – Shareef Sahab etc., etc., where people from all sects and religions go, not only to pay respects but, they believe that whatever they pray and ask for, their prayers are answered and desires are fulfilled. It is a matter of conviction.

    In Pakistan too there are hundreds of Dargaz like, Data Darbar in Lahore, Fareed Shakarganj in Pakpattan, near Multan. And Multan is a city of Peer, Fakeers, Dargaaz and graveyards.

    Chaar (4) tohfa-e-Multan
    Gard, Gada, Garma et Goristan

    Means there are 4 gifts from Multan, Gard (dust) Gada (Fakeer) Garma (Heat) Goristan (graveyard). When I heard this verse, I said no wonder there is so much dust in Multan that you can see it in the names of the people of Multan. Example they have names like, Gardezi and Khaakwani. Both words have roots that means, dust. If you look at it philosophically man is made from dust and will perish in dust.

    I am not one of those people who go to Dargaz and pray in front of the graves of those Saints and ask them to fulfill my desires or my wishes or to forgive my sins. I am not being disrespectful here, I simply don’t believe in that. Even when I went to Medinah at the Prophet’s grave I paid my respects and thought of him, how he must have been etc. But, I did not prostrate because, it is against his own teachings and as a Muslim we are supposed to prostrate in front of Allah only.

  223. #224 by 420 on December 8, 2008 - 3:56 AM

    Javed
    If you really believe that the sadhus are killed by hindus to start a riot, i dont want to argue anymore. Also, is this a view in pak’s media or the international media or amnesty international?

    And your comment “At that time the emotions were high and anything was possible.” doesnt make it justifiable. There was lot of bloodshed, rizvi had fled to pak fearing his life.

    In India, if you champion the cause of a downtrodden group/minority you are the messiah. If you speak for majority, you are considered a radical.
    Till now, we never see any celebrity raise their voice for the kashmiri pandits, due to obvious reasons.
    ******

    Javed’s reply

    420 …. first of all my view was we were discussing and not arguing. Secondly, I gave a link on how Gujarat genocide started and it is neither Pak view nor Amnesty International, but International Media and Martha is American and lives in Chicago. Even in Chicago she got death threats for writing that article and the book.

    Modi was denied visa into the USA because the whole of International media reported against him that he is the culprit who masterminded the whole affair. We cannot discuss Gujrat genocide by exchanging a few comments, we need to go into detail. So, lets leave it here.

    Regarding the Police Action of 1948 and Rizvi’s role you ought to see it in totality and not in parts. The Indian Army attacked Hyderabad from 5 different locations and took-over swiftly there wasn’t much bloodshed as expected, because the Nizam’s Army of Razakars were no match and it was Rizvi who was trying to fool the Nizam who was an eccentric rich old man. How Rizvi was able to fled to Pakistan when the army attacked from all sides is a mystery which you should tell me rather than I ask someone.

    I am unable to comprehend your last paragraph you need to decipher it or elaborate it further.

  224. #225 by JAVED A. KHAN on December 8, 2008 - 6:31 AM

    ******** BREAKING NEWS*****

    Pakistan’s armed forces have moved against a camp used by banned militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistani-administered Kashmir to crackdown on the militants.

    Here is the link:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7770455.stm

    This must be some pacifying news for the Indians that Pakistan is and has been fighting a war against the terrorists.

  225. #226 by khansahab on December 8, 2008 - 10:35 AM

    People reject BJP’s politics of communalism, terrorism: Left

    Indian voters have rejected the Bharatiya Janata Party’s (BJP) politics based on communalism and terrorism, Left parties said on Monday as the Congress seemed poised to win three of the five states that conducted assembly elections.

    “It is a huge setback for the BJP’s divisive politics,” said S Ramachandran Pillai, politburo member of the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M).

    The Congress is set to retain power in Delhi and capture power from the BJP in Rajasthan. While it was also set to form government in Mizoram, the fight was close in BJP-ruled Chhattisgarh. Madhya Pradesh was, however, remaining with the BJP.

    “The fight was between Congress and BJP in most of the states and the people have chosen Congress in Rajasthan and Delhi,” Pillai told IANS without elaborating.

    “The people do not appreciate the BJP’s politics based on communalism and terrorism,” Communist Party of India (CPI) leader D Raja said.

    “The election result also gives a clear message to the Congress that the people are not happy with their economic policies,” he added.

    The Left parties withdrew their support to the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government in July over differences on the India-US nuclear deal.

    The Left parties, which do not have much influence in the north Indian states, had backed the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) and other small regional outfits in the elections.

  226. #227 by Abdul on December 8, 2008 - 12:05 PM

    Did u know that Younis Khan is keeping himself occupied by playing domestic cricket for South Austrlia. The Paksitan’s porfilic run machine is in sublime form and his performances are available on the Austrlian cricket website. In fact he has been an opener in some matches and succeceeded and therefore Pakistan good look at that as an option in the future. Him and Nazir will be the perfect combination.

  227. #228 by khansahab on December 8, 2008 - 2:50 PM

    The terrorist trap

    Ahmad Faruqui

    Monday, 08 Dec, 2008 |

    THE ten attackers went about their business methodically, knowing that their exploits would fill TV screens the world over for days to come. Armed simply with assault rifles and grenades, the young men unleashed a bigger punch than a lone attacker with a large bomb could have pulled off.

    There was something unusually primeval in being hunted down and shot to death by unknown assailants, some of whom sported smiles and wore Versace T-shirts and blue jeans. The slow-motion killing spree in the midst of opulence and luxury stripped hundreds of affluent hotel guests of their exclusive sense of security. As the hours rolled on, the killers outdid the carnage one finds in a Bond film.

    It is too early to say who carried out the slaughter of innocents in Mumbai in those harrowing 60 hours in late November. Finger-pointing will simply whip up slogan-chanting mobs into a frenzy.

    But it is not too early to surmise why the terrorists went about their savage business with ruthless determination and why they chose to carry out their mission within a few weeks of the American presidential election. Four explanations suggest themselves.

    First, the attackers wanted to derail the new-found peace process between India and Pakistan. After many false starts during the Musharraf interregnum, it seemed to have gotten a full head of steam in 2008.

    Second, they wanted to undercut the credibility of the newly elected democratic government in Islamabad. It had made far too many friendly overtures to India. President Zardari’s offer to make South Asia a nuclear-free zone and to extend a no-first-strike policy to India seems to have upset them to no end.

    Third, they wanted to hurt the chances of the dovish and secular Congress Party in next year’s elections in India. While it is difficult to see how the BJP and its fundamentalist Hindu allies would benefit the Muslims of India, it is easy to see that the terrorists thrive on confrontation between the two countries.

    And fourth, they wanted to send a clear and strong signal to the incoming Obama administration in Washington that Kashmir was a live issue that needed to be put on the front burner, ahead of Afghanistan and ahead of Iraq.

    Perhaps all four theories are valid. They are certainly not mutually exclusive. Indeed, they may well be the four pieces of a political jigsaw puzzle.

    In all probability, the terror-mongers dispatched the terrorists so as to lure India and Pakistan into a trap. They have succeeded in part. The blame game that has already begun between the official and unofficial elites of the two countries is just as alarming as it is childish.It must be stopped before it escalates into a much more dangerous game involving the movement of large-scale infantry and armoured formations towards the border and eventually the arming of ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads.

    Both countries need to learn from the mistakes of 2002, which involved the infamous deployment of a million troops along the border, not provide an encore performance. The situation has heated up to the point that outgoing US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice cancelled several other activities and flew to cool the nationalistic fires that were beginning to rage in the hallways of New Delhi and Islamabad.

    To defuse the situation, action by governmental and non-governmental organisations is called for at three levels. First and foremost, a collaborative effort must be undertaken by the governments of both countries to find the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks and to bring him (and his collaborators) to justice.

    This will take months of patient detective work. The temptation to carry out surgical strikes must be resisted at all cost. Military ‘shock and awe’ will achieve nothing productive and indeed risks germinating more terrorists.

    Second — and this will sound so implausible that some will reject it out of hand — the intelligence agencies of both countries should pool their resources and databases about terrorist groups. By now it is clear as daylight that the state of Pakistan has nothing to gain by carrying out a proxy war in Kashmir (or anywhere else).

    The president and prime minister have both publicly denounced terrorism and the president still bears the personal scars of the attack that killed his wife. Yes, cooperation between the ISI and the RAW is a radical suggestion. But the quagmire into which Pakistan has fallen is so deep that nothing short of radical change will pull the country out of it.

    Third, to take away all legitimacy from terror, much of which is being waged in the name of Islam, the religious leaders of the Muslim communities in Pakistan (and throughout the world) should condemn terrorism in all its manifestations in no uncertain terms.

    If those who desert Islam can be branded as apostates by the ulema, then the terrorists who so brazenly act against Islamic principles by taking the lives of innocents should be declared apostates and given capital punishment. It is now clear beyond the shadow of a doubt that their violent and senseless actions only succeed in inviting even more violent and senseless retaliation against other Muslims.

    When it comes to re-indoctrinating the jihadis, Pakistan, with close cultural, political and religious ties to the Saudis, may wish to take a leaf out of Riyadh’s book. The Saudis have set up schools to retrain the large numbers of jihadis who have been netted during various anti-terrorism raids. These schools are intended to bring these misguided people most of whom are in their twenties back into the fold of civil society.

    The Saudis have found that the jihadis are often lacking in basic religious knowledge, are social dropouts and have fallen prey to selfish demagogues. Once the jihadis are given sound religious training, provided financial means for re-entering civil society and provided avenues for getting married, most of them forsake terrorist behaviour.

    Pakistan’s religious establishment should explore this option seriously. It may be the only way of putting the scourge of terrorism to bed.

    The terrorists win if India and Pakistan go to war in the wake of the Mumbai attacks. They lose if the two countries join hands. The march of folly has gone on much too long. It must end now.

  228. #229 by khansahab on December 8, 2008 - 2:57 PM

    Teams willing to play in India because of money: Latif

    Karachi : India remains safe in the eyes of international cricketers despite terror strikes in Mumbai not because of good security but the money-making opportunities it offers to them, feels former Pakistan captain Rashid Latif.

    “I think (Australian captain Ricky) Ponting should be honest enough to say that the cricket world needs to express solidarity with India because of its huge commercial market for cricket, it has nothing to do with the security situation,” Latif said on Monday.

    He said the double standards of teams like Australia have been exposed now as while they had avoided playing in Pakistan for the past 10 years, they were ready to play in India despite the deadly terror strikes in Mumbai.

    “It is really terrible the way the International cricket Council and other boards are insisting on having cricket resume in India. What happened in Mumbai was terrible but the fact is that if teams can play in India why not in Pakistan,” he questioned.

    Latif, who played 37 Tests and 169 one-dayers, said the security situation was the same all over the world.

    “Anything can happen anywhere and when teams can accept security assurances from the Indian board and government, why can’t they do the same when Pakistan board and government urges them to tour?” he asked.

    “The money India is putting into cricket nowadays no one can dare to refuse that. It is greed and nothing else,” he added.

    Latif blamed the Pakistan Cricket Board for the situation.

    “There is no doubt there is huge commercial opportunities for cricket in India which has a larger consumer market than Pakistan. But if our board had also planned accordingly and sensibly we could have had a share of the pie,” he said.

    Latif said Pakistan would need to exploit the commercial value for cricket in the country and start its own twenty20 league as soon as possible.

    “The board has to spend money and get money from sponsors. Until they do this, I am afraid we are not going to have teams playing in Pakistan.

    “All this talk about security concerns by Australia and other teams has now been exposed completely. It is all about money and nothing else. If India didn’t have the muscle and money no team would bother to go there so soon after the Mumbai attacks,” he noted.

    Latif said he had serious doubts whether India would tour Pakistan at this stage.

    “Have we read even one statement from any of their present or former players urging their team to tour Pakistan. I think it is a clear indication of what is going to happen,” he stated.

  229. #230 by Sweetie on December 8, 2008 - 4:08 PM

    Eid Mubarak to u all.
    & Sam if ure still around, go F*** ureself & have fun while ure at it!

  230. #231 by Wasim on December 8, 2008 - 7:07 PM

    Eid Mubarak to everyone.

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