MATCH FIXERS OR TALENTLESS PLAYERS?

Dasti thinks Pakistan lost matches due to match fixing

Dasti thinks Pakistan lost matches due to match fixing

Pakistan cricket finds itself in further chaos after Pakistan’s pathetic defeat at the hands of New Zealand in the ICC Champions Trophy. The Chairman of the Sports Standing Committee, Jamshed Khan Dasti has levelled allegations that Younis Khan and his men fixed matches for various reasons. Dasti has reportedly backtracked on his accusations but the incident has left a deep scar on Pakistan cricket and its followers.

Dasti’s outbursts against Ijaz Butt a few months ago were generally well received by

Yes, I can play stupid and irresponsible shots but I am not match fixer

"Yes, I can play stupid and irresponsible shots but I am no match fixer"

most fans. However this time Dasti is being accused of being too whimsical in alleging match fixing. Whenever Pakistan loses a major tournament, match fixing is always alleged by someone. It is impossible to say whether these players are truly match fixers because match fixing is planned in secrecy for obvious reasons and because it is very difficult to ascertain which bowlers is deliberately bowling badly or which batsman has deliberately thrown his wicket. It was a stupid reaction to say Younis Khan dropped Elliot’s catch because the match was fixed; this is because harder catches are dropped under extreme pressure even by the best fielders. Younis Khan’s batting in ODI’s is inconsistent and irresponsible and the way he gets out, it is extremely unlikely that he would be throwing his wicket. He gets so many inside edges and strange edges that it would take a magician to master those shots leading to a dismissal. However, Younis Khan is definitely talented and the title of this thread does not do him justice as it is meant more for Shoaib Malik and Misbah ul Haq.

Malik- great against India, deplorable against everyone else

Malik- great against India, deplorable against everyone else

The only time Malik performs when it matters is against India. Otherwise he is like a parasite in the team and his bowling and batting both are below par. One must ask how long Pakistan will keep tolerating Malik’s meaningless selfish batting displays? How long will this nonsense continue? Malik has shown absolutely no improvement for years; he is still vulnerable against the new ball, weak against sheer pace and his batting is still very selfish. Malik got a huge and overwhelming lifeline after scoring a century against India and even his harshest critics praised him. However it was shocking to see Malik receiving so much praise since he scored his first 30 runs in about 65 balls and he could have been out on 35. Indian bowlers were disinterested and demoralised and the Indian team showed no application or desire to beat Pakistan. Only one team wanted to win that day. Malik’s selection is devoid of educated reasoning and this biased and emotional selection must now cease once and for all. Pakistan must look for more Umar Akmals and Fawad Alams.

The so called talented opener Imran Nazir is talentless in ODI’s. One wonders what

So called specialist opener Imran Nazir is jeered by Makhaya Ntini

So called specialist opener Imran Nazir is jeered by Makhaya Ntini

Pakistan’s obsession with specialist openers is, when the country has only seen 1 world class specialist opener live up to his domestic reputation, in Hanif Mohammad. The other great opener was Saeed Anwar but he was initially a middle order player. Fawad Alam’s splendid century on a seaming track proved that a middle order batsman can play the same as, if not better than an opener and for that reason it is submitted Pakistan should try Fawad Alam as opener in all forms of the game. The so called cricketing experts like Aamir Sohail moan about why Pakistan does not use more specialist openers, but Sohail should be quizzed as to who exactly should be tried. Everyone from Butt, to Hameed, to Umar and to Nazir has been a complete and utter failure.

In this tournament Pakistan’s weak links proved to be Imran Nazir, Younis Khan and Shoaib Malik. Pathetic batsman Misbah ul Haq has finally been sidelined, but Malik must now be sacked. Younis should either quit ODI cricket or he should be demoted down the order as his wicket has a high price on it and Pakistan cannot afford to see him throwing away his wicket irresponsibly any more.

The problem with PCB is that the idiots who run the show are uneducated and uncouth and they have absolutely no concern for the future of cricket. A lot of the problems are outside the PCB’s control but player selection is totally in the hands of the team management and the Board. Ijaz Butt has learnt no lessons in the past and he will learn nothing in the aftermath of the humiliating defeat against a mediocre team like New Zealand, either. If he is willing and able to learn, my advice for him is to drop Malik permanently, bring Younis down the order  and get rid of players like Imran Nazir. Match fixers or not, these players are definitely not performing in ODI’s and they must be fixed so that Pakistan can creep out of the shackles of mediocrity.

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  1. #1 by Maza786 on October 15, 2009 - 7:01 PM

    I disagree about Imran Nazir being axed from the team. Perhaps he should be tried lower down the order in ODI cricket and only as a specialist opener in T20 cricket and nothing else. This must be stressed.

    I also would like to see Imran Farhat get another bite of the cherry. He scored a ton in a recent domestic fixture.

    In regards to this controversy which has been laid on by Dasti I feel Younis’s reaction was more of emotion then anything. Shahid Afridi was getting popular and PCB were having some big chats with him. Therefore I feel Younis decided to call it day to his captaincy and just put that match fixing accusation as a way of hiding his anger.

    Nonetheless, unless the reports are blatant rumours, that Dasti is brainwashed for what he said. It was totally uneducated and unnecessary, shame on him for linking the country’s name in something so disgraceful like match-fixing. What an embarrassment to all fans and players of the game.

  2. #2 by Maza786 on October 15, 2009 - 7:04 PM

    Khansahab,why are u so anti-Malik ? Fawad’s time will come……………

  3. #3 by khansahab on October 15, 2009 - 7:21 PM

    Maza786

    I am disagree with your support for Malik. I have criticised Younis Khan and Imran Nazir too. I want to see Fawad Alam as opener, so it does not matter whether Fawad’s time comes at Malik’s expense or not because Malik can definitely not play the moving ball so he is not an opener.

    Now will you say “I am agree” to me or will you be disagreeable?

  4. #4 by khansahab on October 15, 2009 - 7:34 PM

    A former Pakistani player who refuses to be named has told the media the following:

    – There are 2-3 groupings in the team.

    – Malik does not want Younis to be captain

    – Younis is not popular with many players

    – Malik, Misbah and Akmal have formed a group

    – Younis has played a very clever hand and is resigning now to gain sympathy of the nation so that he remains captain of the team

  5. #5 by khansahab on October 15, 2009 - 9:18 PM

    Omer

    Rana had 1 bad match out of 4. Malik had 3 bad matches out of 4. Younis had 4 bad matches out of 4. Nazir did not perform in any match.

    These are Rana’s stats in the CT:

    vs West Indies: 7 overs, 26 runs, 1 wicket (3rd best economy rate out of the 5 bowlers)

    vs India: 9 overs, 48 runs, 2 wickets (2nd best econ rate out of 6 bowlers)

    vs Australia: 9 overs, 33 runs, 1 wicket (in this match all bowlers bar Ajmal were equally economical more or less)

    vs NZ: 8 overs, 57 runs. This is the match where he lost it and he was the one responsible from the bowlers’ point of view.

    I know against India he dismissed the 2 tailenders, but that balances out with his bowling at the death against Australia, which was unplayable.

    I am not defending him in any way as I don’t want him to be in the team. On the whole his performance was better than Malik’s, Younis’s and Imran Nazir’s. I think citing him as the “main culprit” for 1 bad performance out of 4 is a tad harsh.

  6. #6 by khansahab on October 17, 2009 - 8:08 AM

    Younis’s resignation a ’smoke screen’ to disguise his shortcomings: Sarfaraz

    Islamabad, Oct.17 (ANI): Former Pakistan speedster Sarfaraz Nawaz has lambasted captain Younis Khan for his sudden resignation from the post, saying it was just a smoke screen to disguise his shortcomings in the one-day format of the game.

    Nawaz said Khan should retire from one-day cricket and concentrate only on Tests.

    “Just like Younis quit Twenty20 format of the game, now it’s high time he should forget playing one-day cricket too. It’s better he should play only as a team member in test matches,” he said.

    “Younis wants to gain people’s sympathy by resigning from the captaincy and he is trying to hide his faults which he committed during the Champions Trophy.He should realize himself that he does not fit in shorter formats of the game,” he added.

    Nawaz said the PCB should have appointed Shahid Afridi as the captain of both the one-day and T20 squad rather than having separate skippers for the two different formats of the game.
    He highlighted that Khan’s own form was affecting team’s performance and the morale of the players.

    “When the captain scores at an average of less than 20 how could other team members perform?” Nawaz pointed out.

  7. #7 by khansahab on October 17, 2009 - 8:12 AM

    I don’t think Younis is resigning to disguise his own poor performance, but I do agree with Nawaz that Younis should now retire from ODI cricket. I don’t think he was ever in the top 10 ODI batsmen in the world and Imran Khan’s idea of sending him at no 3 has failed bigtime.

    Either he should bat below no 4, or he should retire. I have a lot of respect for Younis and I don’t feel nice saying this, but a spade has to be called a spade. Despite his mediocre average and stupid shots, he played some jaw dropping innings such as his century in Southampton, England and his century against India in the final of the Kitply Cup a few years ago.

  8. #8 by khansahab on October 17, 2009 - 8:27 AM

    Omer

    Rana was not the worst Pakistani bowler in 3/4 matches. You have not analysed the performance of other bowlers like Gul who had a worse tournament than Rana. If Malik had performed in 3 matches out of 4 I would not have said that he had a bad tournament.

    This mentality that why I have to single out Malik where other batsmen also failed, or that Rana single handedly loses a match, can also be stated in a different way. In the NZ match Rana was easily the culprit, but in the match against India, Gul was more expensive than Rana was against NZ. The only difference was that Mr Malik actually performed in that match and Pakistan made over 300 whereas against NZ they made 230 on a pitch where 280 would have been the norm. So you can’t pin the entire blame on Rana, because the batsmen also have to do their bit. It is like when some people say Tendulkar never won matches on his own like Inzamam, but Tendulkar did not have Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Saqlain etc to assist him in winning matches. It is normal for 1 bowler out of 5 to have a bad day any given day, and sometimes the team wins, sometimes it loses.

    I have read many articles on Pakistan’s CT performance and neither 1 of them have singled out Rana for the loss, like you have. And I am not singling out Malik by the way because I have blamed Younis AND Imran Nazir too. However Malik is the least talented out of the 3 and he has no role in the team.

    You can blame one bowler who had a bad day, but the reality is that Pakistan should have got 250+ on that pitch which NZ would have faced great difficulty in chasing even if Rana had bowled the same way and completed his quota of 10 overs. And after all has been said and done, I am NO fan of Rana. I think all the ICL players are useless bar Yousuf.

  9. #9 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 17, 2009 - 10:58 AM

    khansahab and Omer “I am agree” with you both.

    Gul had a very bad tournament and that is why I wanted him to be dropped and Asif to be included in place of Gul, but people were unhappy with my comment and wrote that one bad performance should not be an excuse to drop Gul. Clearly he had not just one bad performance but quite a few and it started from Sri Lanka and not just at the CT.

    Rana, has the knack of giving away too many runs when he is supposed to restrict, it was a crucial match against NZ and he failed. So, I don’t consider him as a good bowler. In fact I don’t want him in any format of the game, he is a liability.

    As regards Inzamam‘s winning matches, most of his winning innings came when Wasim and Waqar were not in the team and as a captain he scored more, so it is not fair to take away the credit from him.

    Shoaib Malik
    is a lucky bastard, he scores a fifty or so when he is about to be dropped and by scoring that fifty (and this hundred against India) he has cemented his place. They will never drop him no matter what you guys may think about him or write against him.

  10. #10 by khansahab on October 17, 2009 - 3:02 PM

    WOW, 2 centuries in 2 matches for Fawad Alam in the prestigious Quaid e Azam Trophy being played currently.

    On a pitch where the opposition team scored 133 and the 2nd highest score was 43, Fawad Alam made 154 not out.

    http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/257/257343.html

    Alam should definitely be playing in Malik’s position as he has shown to perform on pitches where everyone else fails. This 154* has been scored against WAPDA which has a pace attack of Rana Naved and 2 renowned domestic pacers Azharullah and Sarfaraz Ahmed.

  11. #11 by khansahab on October 18, 2009 - 11:47 AM

    On behalf of LS Management I would like to wish our bloggers a very happy Diwali.

  12. #12 by Pawan on October 18, 2009 - 5:03 PM

    Thank you Khansahab and LS for your Diwali wishes!

    I will pray this Diwali in the hope to have peace around the world.

  13. #13 by khansahab on October 18, 2009 - 8:56 PM

    PCB Governing Board members gather against Bari

    ——————————————————————————–

    LAHORE: Members of the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB)’s governing board have begun consultations to bring expression of no confidence against chief operating officer Wasim Bari.

    The PCB governing board meeting is going to be held on Monday and its eight-point agenda has been sent to the members.

    International tours programme will be discussed besides domestic cricket at the meeting.

    As there is only one day left before the meeting the governing board members have started lobbying against the chief operating officer in full swing.

    Their stance in this regard is that Wasim Bari has insulted Dr Mohammad Ali Shah by sending him notice on making a statement.

    The board members feel that the salaried officers of the PCB are openly criticizing the team. Players are themselves making statements against each other so how the chairman explaining code of conduct to the board members.

    It is interesting to note that tenure of seven board members expires on October 29.

  14. #14 by Pawan on October 18, 2009 - 11:44 PM

    Guys,

    It has been a Diwali treat for me to watch the biggest club level tournament — Champions League. It is a shame that the Indian and Pakistani Govt’s prevented the Pakistan clubs from displaying their talents at the world stage.

    I’ve been most impressed with the talent from the West-Indies — T&T (Trinidad and Tobago). As the name goes they literally are TNT! Wow! I guess they are surely my champions over here. Man, they got talent — Keoron Polard is the new KP and then they have Lendl Simmons, the son of Phil Simmons, and Adrain Barath, the talent prodigy picked by Lara himself. These youngsters are wasted because of the petty fights between the WI administrators and players associations. Who said cricket is dead in WI? Also the T&T players, 6-7 of them have their roots in India. The people from Bihar were taken as slaves and then got settled in WI, now returning back after several decades, must be quite an emotional moment for them.

    There are other teams, especially from SA which surely have shown the fight and talent which has never been seen before. I think its a great idea to have such a club-level tournament. I hope ICC officially oversees this and makes it a must. I am sure Pakistani players would have shown the same or even more hunegr to win the tournament, had they been allowed to play. I hope next time round they will and petty politics will take a back seat.

    But from what I’ve seen, the most consistent teams are the Australian clubs. Now i know whay they have so much of success at the highest level. They simply have a problem of too many. For every slot they have a fight between 3-4 international level players. Surely if any country has talent and has nurtured it, it is Australia.

    The IPL teams have also performed admirably. Royal Challengers Banglore have shown why they were among the top teams in this years IPL. Especially Ross Taylor — he looks to me the Viv Richards of this generation. Watch out for him.

    But T&T are the team on fire.. watch out!

    More later…

  15. #15 by MAZA786 on October 20, 2009 - 3:02 PM

    I agree about Mohammad Irfan. They should take him on tour when they go down under this winter.What a prospect!

    My Odi team from now on:

    Imran Nazir
    Imran Farhat/Salman Butt/Fawad Alam
    Younis Khan
    Mohd Yousuf
    Umar Akmal
    Afridi
    Kamran Akmal
    Rana Naved ( final chance)
    Gul
    Aamer
    Ajmal

    No no Malik for odi btw.

  16. #16 by MAZA786 on October 20, 2009 - 3:04 PM

    LOL@ Viv Richards and Ross Taylor !

  17. #17 by newguy30 on October 20, 2009 - 10:38 PM

    In the article referenced by Omer about the American power diminishing and China’s ascend, there is one huge difference to be noted between the Spanish/British empire that Ferguson compares America to, that is China is America’s largest trading partner and they own billions of dollars worth of American debt. If Dollar weakens then that is directly impacting China’s own wealth, the reserves and the debt that they own is going to be valued much less. Besides without America buying up the cheap products that they build their trade will weaken. It is in their interests to make sure Dollar is not weakened. Over time however they can reduce the dependency, I am yet to see which currency is going to stand in as a replacement for Dollar, Euro? A currency based on a coalition of nations whose growth is going on at slower pace than U.S. American power may be somewhat diminishing, but I am not convinced it is going to get replaced any time soon.

  18. #18 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 21, 2009 - 2:57 AM

    newguy & Omer;

    The US economic power and control over other countries will remain as long as the “Dollar Drawings” are there. By dollar drawings I mean all these countries when they sell their products (not just to the USA) they trade in the US dollars, ultimately all the money stays in the US banks because, that is their local currency. Hence the USA is benefited even when they are not involved in these transactions.

    A few major currencies have mildly diluted this monopoly like, pound sterling, Euro, Japanese Yen but, the US dollar still remains the dominant currency and it will continue to until and unless they do something systematically and with long term planning.

    The Arabs sell oil in US dollars and all the sales proceeds in the shape of ‘petro-dollars’ stays in the US banks. Apart from that a majority of the corporations and individuals also keep their money in the US currency. If the Arabs make their own “petro-dinar” or “petro-dirham” or “petro-riyal” it will break the backbone of the US economy. But, for some reason or the other they cannot ……. for them it is like a point of no return. They cannot de-invest or divert their sales into another currency, if they do, they will simply annoy the US and the result will not be in their favour. If you remember Iran’s gold reserves and petro-dollars worth hundreds of billions were withheld by the US and Iran could do nothing.

    Likewise, during this recession time, despite the fact that the GCC countries have a lot of surplus in the US banks they simply did not have the courage to withdraw from their own accounts, because they were told to withdraw only a certain amount and not more than that.

    As regards China getting that MFN status, it is not because of love or charity but, it is a known fact that the US owns several trillion dollars in debt to China, like the Arabs they too have a similar problem but, in a opposite way i.e., like the petro-dollars surplus cannot be withdrawn, if China acts drastically then, there is a possibility that the debt will not be repaid. So, the US has hedged its bets from both sides. In Punjabi they say “Giitchii wee phharow tay tuttay wee.”

    In order to deal with this monopoly they ALL have to take long term measures it is not as simple as it appears that you cut your ties with the US and switch over from the US to Euro or any other currency.

  19. #19 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 21, 2009 - 3:03 AM

    Abdul

    Why don’t you invite Rana Naiyee and Salman’s Butt to your club and make them play for your club?

  20. #20 by MAZA786 on October 21, 2009 - 2:35 PM

    Why should I do that Javed ? Are u trying to show that they are “club level” players ?

  21. #21 by khansahab on October 21, 2009 - 7:22 PM

    BREAKING NEWS

    A close friend of Younis has told a newspaper in Pakistan that certain players (believed to be Malik, Akmal and Misbah) revolted under Younis Khan during the Champions Trophy which upset Younis immensely. These players told Ijaz Butt that they will not play under Younis after the CT. Younis Khan took his close friend Umar Gul into confidence and Gul helped Younis Khan sort issues out with the rebellious players.

    In other news, there is a rumour that Butt, Farhat will be back for the NZ series in UAE and Misbah, Imran Nazir and Rana will be dropped. Malik is not going to be dropped.

  22. #22 by MAZA786 on October 22, 2009 - 7:45 AM

    Rana Naved is international class. The one and only problem he has is over stepping the line under pressure circumstances which cost him dear as batsmen always capitalise on that opportunity which shifts momentum. Other than that he is unarguably one of the best t20 players around. So if anything he should be kept in the reckoning for that format.
    Imran Nazir is a mouth-watering player who can dominate proceedings and win a match single handily on his day with his free scoring counter attack style. Yes he will be inconsistent because he is risky with his unorthodox style but I’m in the view we should have uniqueness in our line up. For T20 he’s a necessity but need to either improve technique and controlling his instincts or bat lower down the order in ODI cricket if he’s going to play. I would still like to see him have some more chances though and be accomplished with his ICL partner Imran Farhat at the top of the order. The two tend to bat well together.

    Although professional cricketers haven’t got an excuse to underperform I do feel the PCB is too harsh in dropping players. The selection committee don’t provide players with a worthwhile run which never allows one to settle. But then how come the like of Malik and Misbah the 2 mediocre batsmen got 101 chances and the like of Rana only got a few and in reality only had one bad game?

  23. #23 by MAZA786 on October 22, 2009 - 8:28 AM

    Omer: Rao Iftikar is a 10 times better bowler than Rana can be..

    LOL at your analysis!

  24. #24 by MAZA786 on October 22, 2009 - 1:38 PM

    YES MISBAH IS AXED !

  25. #25 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 22, 2009 - 2:42 PM

    Abdul

    If you are such a great admirer of Rana Naiyee then you can be his Chota and learn some tricks from him i.e., how to overstep the line under pressure circumcisions and not let the batsmen communisize under unsocial circumcisions. You can also get some mouthwatering recipes from Imran Nazir and drool it with you googlies.

  26. #26 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 22, 2009 - 2:48 PM

    Team announced and following are the Squads:

    Tests:
    Salman Butt, Khurrum Manzoor, Imran Farhat, Younis Khan (capt), Mohammad Yousuf, Shoaib Malik, Fawad Alam, Faisal Iqbal, Kamran Akmal (wk), Danish Kaneria, Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Arafat, Umar Gul, Mohammad Asif, Mohammad Aamer, Abdur Rauf, Umar Akmal, Sarfraz Ahmad

    One-dayers: Salman Butt, Imran Farhat, Khalid Latif, Younis Khan (capt), Mohammad Yousuf, Shoaib Malik, Umar Akmal, Kamran Akmal (wk), Abdul Razzaq, Rana Naved-ul-Hasan, Shahid Afridi, Saeed Ajmal, Umar Gul, Mohammad Aamer, Rao Iftikhar Anjum, Wahab Riaz

    Twenty20: Khalid Latif, Imran Nazir, Umar Akmal, Shoaib Malik, Shahid Afridi (capt), Kamran Akmal (wk), Abdul Razzaq, Rana Naved-ul-Hasan, Umar Gul, Mohammad Aamer, Rao Iftikhar Anjum, Saeed Ajmal, Imran Farhat, Fawad Alam, Sohail Tanvir

    Abdul – I think the PCB is too harsh on Misbah now 😉 What do you think?

    The selection committee is comprising of monkeys, they have included Salman Butt once again in test and ODI’s both despite his poor show Butt, Butt noo Butt ditta. And they have labeled Fawad Alam as a test player because of his century on debut and instead of making him sit outside they dropped him from the ODI and T20 squad, Na rehay baans na bujay baansuri. They have also left behind Shahid Afridi from the test squad whereas his test average is far better than his own ODI average and he is any time a better player than Danish Kaneria in every department of the game, yet this is the way you see a picture through Butt Vision.

  27. #27 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 22, 2009 - 2:51 PM

    LOL Munir, thats a good one and it is similar to that Monkey Business example on US economy.

  28. #28 by khansahab on October 22, 2009 - 10:17 PM

    Omer

    Look who the BCCI has paid to praise Tendulkar:

    “In September 2007, former Australian leg-spinner Shane Warne published his list of the 50 greatest cricketers who had played during his time, in which Tendulkar had secured the number 1 spot. Sunil Gavaskar, one of the greatest Indian Test batsmen, regarded as Tendulkar as being the “closest thing to batting perfection.” Shane Warne had mentioned a decade back, “I’ll be going to bed having nightmares of Sachin just running down the wicket and belting me back over the head for six. He was unstoppable. I don’t think anyone, apart from Don Bradman, is in the same class as Sachin Tendulkar. He is just an amazing player.” He has received such appreciations from various other cricketers, including Wasim Akram who said “Cricketers like Sachin come once in a lifetime and I am privileged he played in my time.”, Viv Richards who said “He is 99.5 percent perfect. I’d pay to see him.” Brian Lara who said “You know genius when you see it. And let me tell you, Sachin is pure genius.”, and Barry Richards who said “Sachin is cricket’s God.” Former New Zealand all-rounder Richard Hadlee believes Sachin Tendulkar is the greatest batsman ever to grace the game. Former Australian captain Steve Waugh has said in the past that Tendulkar will go down in history as the best ever batsman after Bradman. Former South African great Allan Donald considers Tendulkar to be the best batsman he has ever bowled to. Current Australian captain Ricky Ponting too believes that Tendulkar is the best batsman he has seen or played against.”

    (Taken from Wikipedia)

  29. #29 by Mohammed Munir on October 23, 2009 - 11:19 AM

    Javed Khan …

    Fawad Alam is in there for the T20, at least his name is mentioned above. Anyway, you are right, he is a better ODI player then Tests and they ‘fixed’ him in Tests only due to that debut century.

    BTW, if Fawad is good enough for Tests and also for T20, why not ODI ? 😉

  30. #30 by khansahab on October 23, 2009 - 8:55 PM

    Omer

    People used to say things about Tendulkar even before India became this global cricket phenomenon. Tendulkar is touted as the best since the late 1990’s, when India was hardly the global cricket power it is now.

    If Tendulkar was less consistent like Lara and Inzamam, then you would not say what you are saying now. He has made so many centuries and he makes centuries so often whether India wins or loses. This is not about being a patriotic Pakistani and bashing someone Indians are touchy about. It’s a matter of principle. By caste I am a Pathan and principles are very important to me, and the truth is that there is no comparison between Tendulkar and Inzamam. Inzamam at his best was in the top 3 batsmen in the world. Tendulkar at his best only had one competitor- Bradman.

    Tendulkar is not a God, which is why he has his flaws. I agree with you that he has not produced innings like Lara has produced. But Lara has not shown this genius of making century after century after century. And this market of a billion people you are talking about, it takes a lot of mettle to come to the expectations of a billion people who expect you to make a century every 3rd or 4th match. Tendulkar has been doing that for over a decade. The fact that it is so easy for him to achieve things that people literally worship him for, shows his genius.

    And this argument that Tendulkar is not a match winner- in Tests, he averages 65 in matches India has won and 36 in matches they have lost. Lara averages 61 in WI’s won matches and 42 in their lost matches. That actually reveals Tendulkar is actually more of a match winner than Lara is- there is a greater discrepancy between his figures compared to Lara’s.

    I will not even go into an analysis of ODI’s, because Tendulkar is simply the greatest ODI batsman of all time- no questions asked. He has changed the face of ODI cricket.

  31. #31 by khansahab on October 23, 2009 - 9:32 PM

    I know regionalism is a problem in the Pakistan team; usually it is Punjab players opposing non-Punjab players. It is out there and in the open. However recent events have shown this happens the other way round too:

    1) Karachi’s strong support for Younis and Afridi over the years

    2) MQM’s threat to nationwide protest if Younis is not reinstated as captain

    3) Younis Khan recommending Basit Ali, Miandad, etc for coaching posts.

    4) Younis Khan recommending Abdur Raqib for the post of Team Manager. Shafqat Rana and Yawar Saeed, both from Punjab were playing regional politics apparently. Abdur Raqib is originally from U.P, India.

    It seems there is fishy regional politics going on.

  32. #32 by khansahab on October 23, 2009 - 10:58 PM

    Omer

    Fair enough.

    Thanks for that absurd comment about Malik being my “favourite batsman”. I have explained this many times and will not dignify it any further with a response. Suffice to say it seems slightly desperate on your part, because I never associated the word “favourite” with Malik ever. So, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

    You have a very unique view on cricket which I respect. Let us respect others’ views and refrain from personal attacks? I remember Graham Thorpe was one of my favourite players and I still rate him very highly. He ONLY performed under pressure and otherwise would not perform. So, there is no hard and fast rule about what criteria one looks at, it all depends on the eye of the beholder and who manages to impress you on the day. Sehwag being an amazing player can never bat like Gambhir, who can play in many different modes and is more technically sound- essentially a more complete (and therefore, skilled) batsman. You will see this, Gambhir will become a legend like Tendulkar and Dravid and Sehwag will never be able to gain that kind of respect, his genius notwithstanding. Such is the beauty of complete batsmanship.

    And by the way it seems to me Malik is not too far away from being your favourite batsman these days 🙂

  33. #33 by Varun Suri on October 23, 2009 - 11:40 PM

    Excuse-moi for my hasty comment full of errors. I wrote it in haste from this noisy Cafe where I came for dinner.

  34. #34 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 6:50 AM

    Omer

    “I would be surprised if Gambhir is ever considered a great player….”

    Hmm. I wonder why they gave him the ICC Test Player of the Year Award then? Maybe Sehwag refused the award because he felt he deserves more and they gave it to the less deserving Gambhir 🙂

    I don’t know why you think Gambhir does not demolish bowlers. Gambhir comes out of his crease to fast bowlers and hits them over their heads.

  35. #35 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 6:56 AM

    Javed A Khan

    Tendulkar was playing first class cricket at 13/14 or something and he had to wait for 2 years to get his debut. Luck definitely is a factor but that is for everyone- most Pakistani players start out in their teens but they don’t manage to stay on the scene.

    Jayasuria is an opener too and I think he averages 32, Tendulkar I think averages 12 or 13 more than him. This argument of being an opener in my view actually embellishes his achievements because playing the new ball is not everyone’s cup of tea. Inzamam played at no 4 or no 5 but he always got plenty of chances to bat because most of his career the opening order was brittle and he would end up coming to bat after 15-20 overs anyway.

  36. #36 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 9:43 AM

    Omer

    You are not a lawyer, so please leave that “twisting and turning of words to persuade” effect to me.

    “in the past, you have consistently supported players like Mohammad Hafeez, Shoaib Malik, and the like”

    I do not recall “consistently” supporting Hafeez or Malik. I think I made 1 or 2 comments about Hafeez and in fact I was arguing for him to replace Malik I think- I mentioned he can bat and bowl better than Malik. Hafeez was in good form at one time and this was before he starting getting out for below 30 and then his bowling also suffered. At domestic T20 level he is still a good player and his fielding is very good. I have mentioned this to you more than once but you keep bringing it back because you think it is very clever and sly of you to do so. You can keep trying and I will keep retorting.

    The problem word there is “consistently”. I “consistently” praise players like Tendulkar, Fawad Alam, Waqar Younis etc who are/were monstrously talented.

    If you want to criticise or undermine my opinion, please do so within the bounds of fact.

  37. #37 by Varun Suri on October 24, 2009 - 11:06 AM

    Omer,

    Although I have read Bertrand Russell’s couple of books and also The Idiot and Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky but honestly speaking i find it hard to compare them with Lara and Tendulkar.

    “Cricketers play the game, no doubt, and know about its finer details on the field. But not all of them are good analysts.”

    By the same logic how can you agree/trust with Richard’s assessment? So it simply means that you pick and choose the assessment done by someone which appeals to you and then you try to argue to prove your point just for the heck of it.

  38. #38 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 24, 2009 - 3:39 PM

    khansahab

    I know that Tendulkar was playing from the age of 13 – 14 and along with Vinod Kambli they entered into a record partnership at school level and that is how they came into limelight.

    Talking of Vinod Kambli, I think he is the only player who smashed 3 sixes of Shane Warne’s bowling in the same over in Sharjah. I was watching that match and I remember Kambli lofting over the bowlers head and after the 3rd six, Shane Warne folded one arm around his stomach and with the second one he was covering his face in order to avoid the embarrassment, over all Kambli scored 23 runs in that over.

    Kambli was a very dashing left hand batsman but, he ruined his career by getting involved in other things and got distracted with fame and money. But, its a fact and whether you may agree or not openers always get more chances to score runs in ODI’s as opposed to those who play down the order.

    The thing that Jayasuriya has achieved in ODI’s, neither Tendulkar nor Lara has managed to do that in fact no other batsman in the world has done that. He is the second highest run getter in ODI and the highest wicket taker and that makes Jayasuriya an over all better player than Tendulkar and others. Kallis is number two and Afridi is number three in that respect i.e., wickets and runs combined in ODI.

    I would certainly enjoy the (50-60) innings of Jayasuriya and Afridi when they are on song as opposed to Tendulkar’s hundred. That is because, those two help in winning their team whereas, Tendulkar’s hundreds often end up in vain and it goes only into his records that he scored “yet” another hundred.

  39. #39 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 4:36 PM

    Javed A Khan

    GOOD openers get chances to score many runs in ODI’s- your statement about it being a fact openers get more chances does not apply to teams like Pakistan where the openers are rubbish and players like Younis Khan and Malik almost always play as makeshift openers. First someone has to be able to handle the new ball very well. One can be a dashing strokemaker like Jayasuria and attack- which means one can have an average in the 20s or early 30s (Jayasuria and Sehwag, for instance) because there is an element of risk. That is what I was trying to explain to Omer a few weeks ago- that it is inappropriate to compare Tendulkar with Sehwag’s style of batting or Dravid’s or Laxman’s style of batting because Tendulkar is in the middle- he is neither too attacking, nor is he entirely defensive. And that actually has worked in his favour because that is one of the reasons why he has scored tonnes of runs.

    Since we are talking about ODI’s, this statistics will help highlight the reality:

    Tendulkar averages 57 in ODI’s India has won and 32 in those India has lost, a discrepancy of 25 runs.

    Jayasuria averages 41 in matches SL has won, and 22 in lost- a discrepancy of 19.

    Inzamam averages 51 in matches Pakistan won, and 30 in matches Pakistan lost. Strangely, there is only a difference of 2 runs there between Tendulkar and Inzamam in “lost” matches, and keeping into account the fact that Inzi’s average is 40 in ODI’s, this seems to suggest Inzamam did pretty OK in those matches Pakistan lost, something he seems to have in common with Tendulkar.

    Now analysing the hundreds scored by the players:

    Tendulkar- 100s in matches India won= 32, 100s in matches India lost= 11 (a ratio 2.90:1)

    Jayasuriya- 100s in matches SL won= 24, 100s in matches SL lost= 3 (ratio of 8:1)

    Inzamam- 100s in matches Pak won= 7, 100s in matches Pak lost= 3 (ratio of just over 2:1)

    So from that analysis Jayasuria seems like the greatest match winner, but Inzamam does not appear to be as great a matchwinner as we may think. Inzamam’s record of 50s in matches won and lost is also not that great (his ratio of 50s in matches won and lost is about 2:1) which is barely spectacular of a player whose main claim to fame to cement his place in the “greats” category is his match winning ability.

    That is why I keep saying, Inzamam was a great player no doubt and one of the best Pakistan has produced, but he is not in the Lara/Tendulkar/Ponting category.

  40. #40 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 5:11 PM

    Omer

    many players have won the player of the year Award and they aren’t considered great

    These are the players who have won this award:

    Chanderpaul
    Dravid
    Ponting
    Kallis
    Flintoff
    Steyn
    Yousuf
    Gambhir

    Maybe you would now like to reconsider your statement. Gambhir is exceptional because he has not been playing for that long and he still got that award which has prior to him, been bestowed to these great players mentioned above. I don’t see Sehwag’s name there. Your favourite Mohammad Yousuf is there too.

    I supported Malik when he was averaging 41 in ODI’s and he was more consistent than Inzamam. If Malik did not have that good run batting at no 3 in ODI’s and averaging 41, he would NOT have been in the team today. That was the time when Pakistan needed to persist with him and since then he has never looked to learn or develop his game. It was the biggest blunder courtesy of Imran Khan, that Younis was sent at no 3- the effect of that on Pakistan ODI form has been profound.

    Sehwag I believe said his inspiration was Tendulkar. I don’t know when your interest in cricket developed, but in the 1990’s Tendulkar was the only world class player in the Indian team and India always depended on him for victories. In fact I am sure you must have heard this saying many times that, getting Sachin out was like getting half the team out. All these Kamblis and Mongias and Sidhus were average players compared to Tendulkar, and Dravid was barely dependable until 2000 onwards. So, India depended more on Tendulkar then, than it depends on Sehwag now. And Sehwag himself has confessed that he emulated Tendulkar. So, that makes Tendulkar Sehwag “ka baap”.

    By the way I have seen those innings of Sehwag. I did my exclusive Sehwag thread following that 201* vs Sri Lanka- the one titled “Adding Method to Madness”.

  41. #41 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 5:16 PM

    Omer

    This match you have asked me to look at, you are aware aren’t you who the highest scorer was for India in India’s 2nd innings?

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/343730.html

    The same player also made a 50 in the first innings.

  42. #42 by Maza786 on October 24, 2009 - 5:43 PM

    NSW winners – Doesn’t mean Australia have the best T20 structure !

    New South Wales may have won the CLT20 but surely it’s only evident that Pakistan are the kings of the format. If Sialkot Stallions were in the reckoning I’m sure they would have been a frontline force with their unique and flamboyant style.

    T20 comes as a synthetic format for the country. In fact it originated long ago for the talented and gifted cricketing nation when people used to play “Ramadan tournaments” and specifically 20/20 matches with tape balls etc. Therefore it’s nothing new and comes very naturally to the people. The interest within the nation is of abundance and the structure is one that really motivates the players.

  43. #43 by Maza786 on October 24, 2009 - 5:47 PM

    Khansahab, what did u make of the selection for the different versions of the game ? I feel the PCB made wise choices and were innovative in opting for format specialism i.e Nazir for T20 only.

  44. #44 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 5:52 PM

    Omer

    On this occasion I didn’t think opposite to you for two reasons, 1) I totally understand this was Sehwag’s match and 2) I did a goddamned thread on Sehwag after that innings.

    I was just highlighting that on a pitch/in a match where so many Indian batsmen failed, Gambhir did not. I was requesting you to appreciate his contribution too, especially the knock he played in the 2nd innings. It might have been slow but he kind of played the anchor role.

  45. #45 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 6:58 PM

    Omer

    That’s fair enough.

    I saw the exact same clip on Youtube about a week ago actually. Lara was amazing. And Lara’s genius cannot be undermined. He might be better than Tendulkar and Ponting in Tests. His footwork is extraordinary.

    Overall I feel Tendulkar is the best batsman though. I am not a “fan” of Tendulkar by the way. He has never impressed me like how Waqar, Dravid, Thorpe etc have done, but he has changed the face of cricket. So many people have told him to retire, he has faced injuries, but he keeps coming back and he has been in the top 10 batsmen in the world for God knows how long. He has created magic on every pitch, against every bowler, against every side. He has every shot in the book, he plays every shot equally well, he has no major technical weakness, his placement, timing, shot selection, footwork, running between the wickets- everything is spot on. That is why he is so good. You were defining “genius” but Tendulkar’s genius lies in his perfection and completeness. I don’t think any batsman can play the swinging ball which such brilliant shot selection. You swing it in and he times the perfect leg glance for four. You swing it out, he reads it well and cuts or drives with perfect timing again. He is just amazing at basic, simple batting. Because he is so amazing, he has a very good strike rate of 86 or something in ODI’s although he is not a slogger. In fact when you can do your basics so well there is no need to slog.

    Plus the best thing about him is that he destroyed McGrath and Warne when they were at their peak and when Australia was invincible. You should see what kind of shots he has played when facing McGrath and Warne. No disrespect to Lara’s 153, but McGrath and Warne were not as dominating then as they were later on.

  46. #46 by khansahab on October 24, 2009 - 10:16 PM

    Javed A Khan

    A 60 in 30 balls is good, but there is not much point in scoring runs like that if you will score them once every 25-30 matches. That is because of you want to play like that, 8 out of 10 times you will be out before you reach 25. That is why Afridi averages 23 in ODI’s.

    You are right in saying that I belong to a different mindset in that I am not that great a fan of Afridi or Sehwag-like batting (in ODI’s). I only started supporting Afridi since 2007 when he matured as a bowler. Before that he was somewhat useless. Speaking of strike rates by the way, Lara’s is 80 in ODI’s and Inzamam’s is 74. So if quick scoring is a criterion, Tendulkar tops them.

    Consistency is what makes a top side and having Afridi’s and Sehwag’s in your side can often work against you. Sehwag has been dropped in ODI’s for being inconsistent, although his return has been quite remarkable. Meanwhile, Tendulkar has largely been very consistent- in fact that is the hallmark of his batting.

    Omer

    Those articles you have mentioned are from 2005-2007. Tendulkar is still playing in 2009 and he is still in the top 10 batsmen. So, you will find the longer he plays for, the more people will be willing to admit he is better than Lara.

    http://www.samaylive.com/news/tendulkar-at-his-best-is-better-than-lara/599883.html

    Check was Ponting says about Tendulkar and his record against Australia.

    Here someone else is saying that Tendulkar is better than Bradman:

    http://betting.betfair.com/cricket/cricket/tendulkar-is-a-better-batsman-041207.html

  47. #47 by Varun Suri on October 24, 2009 - 10:48 PM

    Omer,

    I do not know how you can say that Tendulkar has Performed only once against Warne and Mcgrath (in the 97 series i presume) in India.

    1991-1992:- Matches:- 5; Runs Scored;-368;Avg:46.50 Highest:-148
    1997-1998:- Matches:- 3; Runs Scored;-446;Avg:111.50 Highest:-177
    1999-2000:- Matches:- 3; Runs Scored;-278;Avg:46.33 Highest:-116
    2000-2001:- Matches:- 3; Runs Scored;-304;Avg:50.66 Highest:-126
    2003-2004:- Matches:- 4; Runs Scored;-383;Avg:76.60 Highest:-241
    2007/08:- Matches:- 3; Runs Scored;-493;Avg:70.42 Highest:-154
    2008/09:- Matches:- 3; Runs Scored;-396;Avg:56,57 Highest:-109

    Total Matches:- 29; Runs Scored:-2748 Highest:-241* Average:-56.08 Total Centuries:- 10

    Generally speaking against Australia he has performed better than other countires with the possible exception of England. As far as Wasim,Waqar and Pakistan is concerned unfortunately between 1989 until 2002 when Wasim retired there was very little Cricket between India and Pakistan infact there was only One Series in 1998-1999 so your jumping to the Conclusion that Tendulkar did not perform against the W&W’s is a bit far fetched!

    Going by your posts it seems that you already have made up your mind and now you are desperately trying to prove your point. You mentioned Tendulkar scored only 1 Century in the 4th Innings(infact it’s 3) and Lara scored more than him in the 4th? Is this Criterion enough for Lara be a better batsmen? What about Tendulkar’s bowling? He used to be quite a useful bowler both in Tests and One-Days and it is for the same reason why Javed likens Jayasauriya more than Tendulkar, I would rate Tendulkar as a more complete Test player than Lara but as far as only batting is concerned, it is simply incomparable you can either compare the whole player or nothing at all but you can’t compare tits n bits like Who scored bigger hundreds? or Who scored more in the 4th Innings? or Who stayed longer on the crease?

    Now you have started pasting old articles to support your POV but the fact is Chappell in 2007 was quite notoriously after Tendulkar’s sacking after he had not performed in quite a few matches and he was the No.1 person asking for Tendulkar’s retirement. The thing is if Lara would have been playing until now then also you would find many experts supporting your POV but since Tendulkar continued to play until now I am sure many of these experts have already changed their mind!!

    As khansahab has said already that he is not a GOD and hence he will always have some weaknesses and Yes he has not scored heavily in the 4th Innings to win a Test Match but is that the only innings what you would consider a Match Winning Innings? What about the player who scores big in the first innings to give an advantage right in the beginning?

    You say that Tendulkar never won matches for India as Lara did, maybe you did not follow Indian Cricket from 1990-2000 when the only time we had any chance to win was when Tendulkar performed and it was in those times when he was hitting a quick 70-80 in 30-40 balls and that is the reason why it took him 70-75 matches to score his first ODI Century. If you ever happen to realise how mediocre Indian Team was in that decade only then you would realise the importance of Sachin in the Indian context.

    For now I would request you to kindly put this debate to rest because I am sure no matter how many articles you post neither khansahab nor me would be convinced by your way of thinking. Of Course Javed Khan is on your side on this one so you will never walk alone…

  48. #48 by newguy30 on October 25, 2009 - 3:23 AM

    Hi Omer, Khansaheb, et al,

    Interesting discussion on two greatest masters of all time. In my opinion it is futile exercise to compare these two, for one it has already done by many others and the conclusion seems to favor Tendulkar for reasons Khansaheb noted and not for the reasons Omer and Javed is thinking, i.e, most people supporting this position are paid by Indians, that is absurd, was the greatest batsman of all time Don Bradman paid by Indian media when he said Tendulkar comes closest to being like himself? This is the best compliment Tendular could get, coming right from the Don himself.

    Second reason this exercise is futile is that both of these batsmen are true greats, but they are very different, their styles cannot be compared, you cannot put one on top of another, but then again Tendular seems to be the most complete batsman, he has no weakness and there is no bowler in history that he has not dominated.

    Lastly, those who are in favor of Lara being a better batsman seems to have made up their minds, and those who are in favor of Tendulkar seems to have made up their minds as well, and neither one would budge.

    But, there is more evidence on why Tendular is a better batsman, not from how many matches he won for India or how many hundreds he scored in 4th innings, but from the pure batting perfection.

    This is the reason why people call Tendulkar the better batsman, he batting is perfect looking from the purest form of batting.

    Winning matches is irrelevant, it takes 11 players to win a game, and test matches are won by bowlers, a batsman can set up the match or score the winning runs if the target is made achievable by bowlers, but is it bowlers who win matches. Reason why Lara or Ponting may have been more successful than Tendulkar is because of their superior bowlers, Lara had Walsh and Ambrose, Ponting had Warne and McGrath, who did Tendulkar had in comparison, Srinath and Prasad? how laughable is that comparison, in fact Anil Kumble was the lone warrior for India in this regard, Kumble won most Test matches for India than any other player, so in this regard Kumble was alone, if India had another bowler of his caliber then Tendular would have seen more victories.

  49. #49 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 8:24 AM

    Omer

    Whether you like it or not, if you ask most English, Australian, Sri Lankan, South African experts they will say Tendulkar is better than Lara. You should realise there are many intelligent people out there who feel that way and it is very disappointing of someone educated like you to say things like people get paid to say these things.

    Your opinion is a minority opinion, sometimes my opinions are minority opinions too. So, let us tolerate each other’s views and bury this thing? I have told you many times that Tendulkar is better because he is a more complete and perfect player. Lara can be better in Tests or he may have played some unforgettable innings. That Tendulkar is better than Lara or vice versa is not something set in stone and the fact that we are having this debate means that there are arguments about who is better. But, you seem a little too preoccupied with this idea that Tendulkar is overrated.

    I was born in Pakistan, but I find it very strange that 99% of Tendulkar’s criticism comes from Pakistanis and they are especially very keen on proving that he is not worthy of the respect he has achieved. One can have biases (I do too) and one can comment on politics and international relations, or religion, but that has to be kept separate from sport. I don’t understand why we must thrust our political and religious views into sport. When India used to refuse to play Pakistan in the 1990s, Pakistanis used to get very angry and say, “They hate us so much that they don’t want to play sport and they are mixing politics with sport”. We are just as bad as them if we are doing the same.

  50. #50 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 11:12 AM

    Omer

    After all that has been said and done you still think I am basing my opinions on the amounts of runs scored or centuries scored. Please tell me when I mentioned Tendulkar is the best because of the amount of runs he has scored? I don’t know why you can’t read people’s comments properly, I am a busy person too. I wake up 6am and return from work at 8pm on weekdays and sometimes I have to work on Saturdays. But I still have the courtesy of reading other’s comments properly.

    Yes, I should not be telling you about your motivations. I apologise for that.

    I don’t know what you mean by that majority view comment, but if you meant that if it is my view it becomes the majority view, then no, that is not what I was saying. I was saying that most cricketers and cricket commentators consider Tendulkar to be the best batsman. And I was saying that some of those individuals are very intelligent and educated people like yourself, which is why you should respect their opinion and they should respect yours. I don’t know how the heavens you came to the conclusion that I was saying a view becomes a “majority view” if it is my view (if that is what you meant).

  51. #51 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 11:20 AM

    Wasim Akram’s wife has passed away.

    It is very sad news. I hope he recovers from the grief soon and I pray for her magfirat.

    Inn lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon.

  52. #52 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 11:28 AM

    Omer

    Manjarekar, Sidhu, Kambli- they were average players like Malik and Misbah. Maybe Sidhu was slightly better. Ganguly and Dravid only really became great from 1999 onwards. Tendulkar was already a masterclass before 1999.

  53. #53 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 11:29 AM

    Omer

    The fact that Tendulkar has fared better on pace friendly tracks than flat pitches makes him a better batsman than one would think. Players like Kamran Akmal and Razzaq can make centuries on flat tracks.

  54. #54 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 11:33 AM

    Omer

    So now you are highlighting the AMOUNT OF RUNS and AVERAGE Tendulkar has garnered against McGrath? I thought that was not your style?

    What happened to the “quality of runs” argument? What about playing the new ball, what about shot selection, what about pressure of playing the best side?

    And have you looked at Lara’s and Sehwag’s records against McGrath at his peak? If I remember correctly McGrath always got Sehwag with those in dippers?

  55. #55 by Varun Suri on October 25, 2009 - 11:46 AM

    On a different note…in today’s match between India and Australia Harbhajan and Praveen Kumar scored 84 runs in 9.3 overs and then just when they were near a very improbable win. Aussies pulled things back in the last over. It was a good lesson for Batsmen like Raina and Dhoni who really will have to pull up their socks in this series to restore their reputation….

    khansahab,

    I am agree with you,Mcgrath got Sehwag so many times that he had almost become his bunny and it was greatly after Mcgrath had retired Sehwag blossomed and this fact has been acknowledged by none other than Sehwag as he himself said that Mcgrath made his life very difficult and now that he is retired and also in the Camp of Delhi Daredevils so Sehwag is rest assured that he would never ever face him in a real match situation..

  56. #56 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 25, 2009 - 1:32 PM

    A 60 in 30 balls is good, but there is not much point in scoring runs like that if you will score them once every 25-30 matches. khansahab

    25-30 matches is exaggeration and just a way to make a point. The real question is what the other players contribute in that match? Whenever players like Afridi and Sehwag performs others also do and when they fail the others struggle.

    Now look at today’s match Sehwag was playing his natural game, 13 in 11 balls with 3 fours whereas Tendulkar scored at a strike rate of around 40 and see what happened? India already lost that game after that and Dhoni and Raina almost confirmed it by throwing the towel, it was only the two bowlers who almost made it possible that it looked like a win, they came so close yet they lost it by 4 runs.

    The class was remembered by an Indian commentators when Nehra was playing the last ball he said ……… There is NO JAVED MIANDAD to score a six on last ball.

    Indian bowling especially fast bowling is pathetic these days, only the first 8-10 overs helped the fast bowlers with a bit of a swing and after seeing Australia bat first India must have learned something. Both Indian openers were gone by the the time it was 8.1 overs and that shattered the Indian batting confidence they never looked steady after that although Gambhir’s gritty innings should have been capitalized but the job was left for Harbhajan and Kumar and they played the innings of their life, however you cannot expect them to finish off with a win. Over all it was a nice thriller but it never looked like India could have won, hence they lost.

  57. #57 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 25, 2009 - 1:33 PM

    Of Course Javed Khan is on your side on this one so you will never walk alone…Varun

    😀

  58. #58 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 1:35 PM

    Varun

    Gambhir was India’s best batsman today and he managed 68 at a decent strike rate coming into bat at an abnormal batting position (no 3) and also playing under pressure, chasing 290+. In my opinion that tells about his quality- the fact that he actually fought in a match where Sehwag and Tendulkar failed.

    If India had ended up winning this match, Gambhir’s contribution would have appeared more prominent. Tendulkar has also done this many times when he has made good scores but has been unable to finish. A lot of that is of course due to the fact that he has been opening in ODI’s.

    Gambhir is like the new Tendulkar for India- a complete batsman who can play according to the situation, bring some stability and also provide consistency. He needs more support from guys like Tendulkar, Dhoni, Yuvraj etc, otherwise he will also be considered as Tendulkar is now considered by some people- someone who does not play for the team.

  59. #59 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 25, 2009 - 1:46 PM

    Whether you like it or not, if you ask most English, Australian, Sri Lankan, South African experts they will say Tendulkar is better than Lara.…. khansahab

    How many have you asked?

    99% of Tendulkar’s criticism comes from Pakistanis khansahab

    You have simply cooked up the stats once again to make a point.

    It is a fact that Tendulkar has highest runs and highest centuries but it is also a fact that Tendulkar is highly over-rated.

    khansahab

    mixing sport with politics or vice versa is also a reality because when two countries are not in good terms they cannot play in each others country except at a neutral venue. Both sides (India and Pakistan) the crowd is emotional. And there is one thing which is very clear i.e., the Indian crowd (spectators) are very, very biased and supports only Indian side and no matter who the opposition is be it Pakistan or Australia they only support India and never appreciate the opponent’s shots or wickets.

    Today when Ponting, Paine and Hussey were hitting fours and sixes it never looked like it happened there was total silence in the crowd. Same thing when Indian batsmen get out like that expression in Urdu, “saanp soongh gayaa” ! Now, please don’t compare the crowds with some more instant stats 😀

  60. #60 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 25, 2009 - 1:54 PM

    Wasim Akram’s wife was suffering from organ failure and when she needed him most he was in India in Bollywood and in TV lounges like Ek Hasina Ek Khilari or traveling to places alone to witness women world cup cricket etc., I am sure by now he has already recovered. May God bless the poor woman who went through so much sufferings and pain.

  61. #61 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 1:54 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Pw7wj0cOg

    Omer

    Check this out from earlier this year. This video has been uploaded by a Pakistani. It features 3 of Tendulkar’s shots. The first one is similar to how a lot of batsmen have started playing this little dab above the slips, but look how well he plays it, how late he plays it, how well he times it and how quickly he creates a shot out of that ball.

    The 3rd boundary he hits- check how quickly he gets into position and smashes that. You will see a glimpse of his side view as he is playing that cut- his footwork and back position is slightly unconventional, but look at how wonderfully he executes that shot. That is Tendulkar’s class- he is a genius.

  62. #62 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 2:01 PM

    Javed A Khan

    It’s the age of Information Technology and I don’t need to go around the world and ask people things. I can read on the internet, watch on TV, write on blogs etc.

    Tendulkar is highly over-rated when he is perceived as a God, but not over-rated when he is perceived as one of the best (or perhaps the best) batsmen. We can agree to respectfully disagree over this point.

    The Indian crowd also gave Saeed Anwar a standing ovation when he made 194 against India in 1997. I know people from Chennai and southern states are different to people from Mumbai and U.P/Punjab, but they are also Indian. The bigger the country the more diverse people you see.

  63. #63 by newguy30 on October 25, 2009 - 2:26 PM

    Omer, Khansaheb,

    I think it’s time to put to rest the discussion on Tendulkar vs. Lara for now, this will resurface again for sure, until then both of you have made solid arguments supporting your suppositions 🙂

    For the record I don’t think Omer is biased against Tendulkar because he (Omer) is Pakistani, that said I know too many Pakistanis do not agree to Tendulkar’s greatness just because he happened to be Indian. It’s refreshing to see the counter argument is not coming from an Indian or Indian born, but from Khansaheb who is Pakistan born. Likewise many Indians admire Pakistani greats too, like Miandad, Imran, Akram, Saeed Anwar, to name a few.

    Fact is that Tendulkar is once in a generation player, so is Lara, end of story.

    Changing topic to today’s match between Ind and Aus, match was lost by bowlers when they gave away 291 in the first place, and then batsmen lost it in the middle overs while chasing. Time for big names like Dhoni and Raina to stand up and deliver.

    These days Indian batsmen are in constant pressure of chasing close to 300 scores every time they play quality opposition. This is because bowlers, especially fast bowlers give away too many runs, it’s so obvious that it’s simply amazing the coaching staff is not able to work on this problem, or may be they tried and it’s not working, this is why Venky Prasad and Robin Hood Singh were fired, both were getting a free ride on the Indian team bus for long without results to show.

    Anyhow, Harbhajan always raises his performance against Aussies, whether it is with bat, ball, or mouth. He did it today againd, just could not get one more hit that would have made all the difference. Aussies bowled trash towards the end, especially Watson who bowled full toss after full toss, Siddle too did his share, but held his nerve in the last over.

    This series most likely will go down 5-2 or 4-3 in favor of Australia, I don’t think India will lose 6-1 like England, and if India manage to claw back and win it is more likely a 4-3 in their favor, but I see Australia edging out the series just like they did in today’s match. Mainly because of slightly better bowling and far better fielding. Tendular dropped an easy catch today in the slips, which the commentator was saying probably Dravid would have caught, these little things make a difference in the end.

  64. #64 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 25, 2009 - 5:34 PM

    Mohammad Irfan the 7 feet 1 inch tall Pakistani fast bowler is making headlines by taking more wickets in domestic matches. Earlier he had taken 9 wickets in 2 matches and in the third one he took 11 wickets. Overall 20 in 3 matches is a good achievement. He should be checked and trained further by the so-called ex-expert greats so that the talent could be harnessed and honed. If that bowler has the potential then he should be tried in place of NOTHING FAST BOWLERS LIKE RANA AND RAO ….. and if he succeeds at international level then, he will get more confident.

    Bowling from that height is always and advantage for him and short batsmen will have more difficulty in playing a good length ball which could bounce up to their chest level. Therefore, I strongly believe that he should be checked out by the PCB selection committee and given a chance to play on fast and bouncy wickets like Australia and SA.

  65. #65 by khansahab on October 25, 2009 - 5:48 PM

    Newguy

    Thank you for your appreciation.

    A few years ago I could have criticised Tendulkar to hit Indians where it hurts, but now I don’t because I don’t see the point. If 160 million Pakistanis don’t acknowledge Tendulkar’s greatness it will not affect him in any great way. And that 160 million is obviously an exaggeration because Tendulkar has many fans in Pakistan. A lot of them are like me- not fans per se, but who definitely admire his class.

    I remember Shoaib Malik did a show in UK about 4-5 years ago. There was a paindoo presenter, really uncouth guy with big teeth and paindoo approach and he asked Malik who his favourite batsman was. Malik said it was Tendulkar, and that paindoo said, “You are Pakastaani and you are calling Tendulkar your favourite player?”

    Strangely enough Malik’s response was intelligent and he said, “What does being Pakistani have to do with whom I consider to be the best batsman? Tendulkar ek zabardast player hai”.

    Then an aunty came on the phone and spoke to Malik and said, “Puttar tu Tendulkar ki tareef na kar, uss ki wicket lena tu aur harra kay aana India ko”.

    It’s emotions like these I don’t understand. It is sport and hatred based around politics, religion and culture should not affect it. I of course don’t mean to say that Indians don’t hate Pakistanis like that. Both of them are the same people, they have the same emotions and their minds work the same way.

  66. #66 by newguy30 on October 25, 2009 - 7:24 PM

    I will provide one incident from my real life as an example of the stereotype that exists between Indians and Pakistanis and what others think about them.

    Couple of years back I was working in a team that consisted of a Pakistani person. A new team member joined us and he was Jewish, not from Israel, but an American of Jewish faith. In one of our meetings I was with him but the Pakistani person was not attending at that time, this meeting happened after he got introduced to everyone, he turns to me and asks “Mr. XYZ and yourself, how do you guys get along, I mean he is from Pakistan and you are from India” then he puts on a I know it all smile.

    I found that question totally understandable and I was not shocked because that is what the media generally projects, that Indians and Pakistanis are waiting to go over at each others throats, but I just said coolly that we get alone just fine and we have no problem, in fact I added most Indians and Pakistanis get along really well. Now, this is my view of it, of course, he was disappointed because the answer was not what he expected, he was thinking along the same stereotypical view. Anyhow, another person who heard it asked is that because you guys share history and similar culture, and I said partially yes, and added we also share similar language and food which is a very large part of any culture.

    I got along OK with my Pakistani colleague, however, there were clearly instances when I knew he was not comfortable with topics involving India/Pakistan politics and problems, he made conscious efforts at not getting into that type of conversation, he also kept distance from myself and other Indians except for general chit chat and the occasional Hindi/Urdu chat.

    One thing that pained me though was that he would befriend Muslim Indians while he kept a distance with others like myself who are Hindus. This is really strange though because of one he didn’t come across as a highly religious person, and second I don’t actually practice religion because I am primarily agnostic about this, so I really don’t care if someone is Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Christian, I like to be friends with everyone and especially like having diversity. I grew up with many Muslim friends and have been invited to their homes for special occations like Bakrid and I have attended many Muslim weddings, enjoyed many feasts, because these are my friends and I felt at home, and they made me and other Hindu friends feel at home, and we do same thing for them. These things may not be very well known or so common in India, but they do exist, and people forget to portray then when it happens.

    Anyways, this person somehow felt more closer to Indian muslims and I agonized over it for a while then got over it, if that is how he wants to be so be it, it’s just lack of understanding, or may be he is just has more in common to discuss with them, whatever.

    I am explaining this story to say that people do have their biases, and all they need to do sometimes is overlook those and try to trust the other party first, unconditional, then see if it gets reciprocated, if they do then you have won over some friends, if not you still haven’t lost anything.

  67. #67 by Pawan on October 25, 2009 - 11:38 PM

    How on earth can someone consider Sehwag (who by his own admission plays with minimal footwork) better technically equipped than Tendulkar? This is something extremely hilarious to me. Agreed one can debate over Lara and Tendulkar, but Sehwag? Come on. For a person to be a complete batsman, he has to be technically sound — now don’t say that it is okay not to be one.

    Boycott would eat you raw, my dear friend, if you say Sehwag is better than Tendulkar.

    I like the discussions over Lara vs. Tendulkar though. Good going!

  68. #68 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 26, 2009 - 12:44 AM

    newguy

    I apologize, I’ve missed out in haste that you wrote Omer is not biased…. but, in the same sentence you said ………“I know too many Pakistanis do not agree to Tendulkar’s greatness just because he happened to be Indian” that led me to believe or understand that you are talking about Pakistani bias against Indians and saying Omer is biased. Sorry for that, also about Ravi’s comment yes, he did mention that he hated Miandad’s guts.

    As regards mixing, I don’t think you guys have mixed with Pakistanis as much as I did with Indians. I have traveled to India a few times and I lived in Dubai long enough and I am accustomed to the culture and the food and, I am sure despite being an Indian you may not know how to cook Indian cuisine but, I do. I make thin and crispy Masala Dosa, Rawa Dosa, excellent Vada Sambar, Fried Idli, Uthapa, the green coconut chutney and authentic Upma with cashew nuts, peanuts, coconut curry leaves etc., etc. This is not something we eat as pathans but, I do make the South Indian cuisine once in a while to change the taste of food. For me the South Indian food is just like switching over from the regular desi food (North Indian and Pakistani cuisine) to French, Italian and Chinese cuisine and I prepare it with minute details to make it “look & taste” authentic.

  69. #69 by Varun Suri on October 26, 2009 - 1:18 AM

    Now LS has really sprung back into action after few days of dormancy!!

    1. Tendulkar V/S Sehwag

    I don’t think it is proper to compare players from different generations and more so if you consider that Sehwag has been only playing Test Cricket for only 8 Years and consider the circumstances in which he made his debut under possibly the best Captain of India:- Ganguly who made it easier for players like Harpphajan,Pathan,Kaif,Yuvraj,Sehwag and Zaheer Khan to get settled and play their natural game. Sehwag might appear and behave as cool as he would like to but he has never really felt the kind of pressure Tendulkar did during the 90’s. Sidhu, Manjrekar and Azhar’s form started to dip in the beginning of 90’s which led to their retirement amidst other reasons(match-fixing), there were occasional good knocks by Jadeja and Kambli but until Ganguly and Dravid came to the scene Indian Cricket was essentially a One-Man show as far as Batting is concerned!

    Sehwag is alreay 31 now and I doubt he could match the lonegevity Tendulkar has displayed. If Tendulkar has been able to play at this level for 20 Years and still going strong, then Sehwag needs to play atleast another 2 Years at the Top Level to be even considered comparable with Tendulkar because as of now both of them are playing and it is only for this reason it does not make sense to consider the past articles where some people might have commented that Lara is better than Tendulkar because it is those same people only who are singing his praises and have changed their opinions and mind you not all of them have been paid by BCCI.

    2. ….it is also a fact that Tendulkar is highly over-rated.

    Over- rated by Who? Indians will definitely over-rate him because so many of them have made him a GOD and worship him and some of them abuse him when he does not perform. They have the right to do so being an ardent follower of Cricket.

    As far as the people from other countries are concerned including Pakistan who over-rate him, I would like to ask Javed bhai with all politeness that Who has asked them to Over-Rate him? Are they gaining anything out of it personally? Is BCCI so rich that it can accomodate the luxurious lifestyles of all those Australian, South African and English experts who over-rate him?

    3.Pakistan will always get an ovation or an applause if they are playing anywhere in South-India because most of the South-Indian Cricket fans tend not to mix emotion&politics with Cricket and hence are Generally more sportive as compared to people in the East the Bengalis or the West the Marathis or even in the North.

  70. #70 by newguy30 on October 26, 2009 - 2:24 AM

    Javed,

    Your experience is very interesting, and you sure sound like a guy who knows more about India than many Indians do, honestly 🙂 And your explanation of South Indian food is very authentic. You are definitely an interesting guy with a lot of experience in life. One reason I read and post on this forum is because of the knowledge of people here, Cricket and otherwise, is really of high quality. I read Cricinfo too, for fun, but don’t really find anything useful, except of course the ball by ball of live matches.

  71. #71 by Varun Suri on October 26, 2009 - 1:51 PM

    I don’t even know why this point of over rating a player and exaggerating someone’s records in this case Tendulkar is a point of discussion at all because this is not something only for Tendulkar you will find all sorts of journalists and writers favouring a player because of some reason other than Cricket and Usually they will write everything positive about them and exaggerate their records. When someone praises Tendulkar he does not have to fake anything there is so much to pick from the Stats but only when you don’t like him for some reason or the other or you never really enjoyed his play for some reason or the other or you are really irked by the wholesome praise and affection he generates from all corners of the Cricketing World, Only then and I reiterate Only then One would ever raise this point of overrating and exaggerating his Stats.

    His 20 Year Record speaks for himself and whoever believes that he has ever played for himself is again trying to find a fault or some way to get to the Little Master. If you find a fault in him then why don’t you just realise that he is also a human being and not a GOD and if his fans and supporter over rate or exaggerate about him then that should not be a cause of botheration to you. Even though I am a very harsh critic of the whole Mumbai Lobby in Indian Cricket but he is an exception and above all the people who indulge in petty politics.

  72. #72 by newguy30 on October 26, 2009 - 9:56 PM

    Javed,

    Indian media is over the top, this is a fact, they go on and on in adulation of their heroes, and Tendulkar certainly is on the top of the class in that list. Others include movie stars, politicians, models, and other such celebrities. Ever head of “King Khan”? sure everyone know as I am talking about SRK, who came up with this hyperbole adjective? India media, they could make a mediocre actor with limited skills and physique into “King Khan”, but of course they are not the ones how made him that, it’s the public who rushes into movie halls to watch what Bollywood produces.

    I do enjoy Bollywood movies for sure, but I’ll never fawn over a movie star and worship him/her like the average Indian, take for instance Aishwarya Rai, another actress with mediocre acting skills, looks where she reached and how India media treats her.

    If you analyze this mentality further you will see that there is a bit of servitude here, a left off from the Colonial Raj where ordinary Indians fawn over the “Gora Sahibs”, it’s still deep ingrained in the Indian psyche. I do not know if this exists in Pakistan, I am sure there is some of it, after all Pakistanis share the same history of bondage and servitude to the “Angrezi” masters.

    What is the connection here? it’s the attitude to serve a greater human being, to bow down and praise another person. It’s just my opinion of course, but part of it is that for sure.

    This is one of the many social shortcomings that makes me not go back to India and settle back there, I cannot live in a society where there is huge class differentiation and some people are praised like god, everything has to have a limit.

    Coming back to Tendulkar though, this is not his fault, on the contrary despite all this, he has remained a very humble person, you got to give him credit for that. He may not be all that the India media write up about him, and surely they could give a bit more credit to Brian Lara and Ricky Ponting, but we should not penalize Tendulkar for this.

    I still think Lara and Tendulkar are equals, I don’t think Sehwag can be rated higher even though he may be a better match winner, Lara has some achievements that Tendulkar do not have (mainly contributions in winning situations, higher individual scores), and Tendulkar has some that Lara do not (more centuries, more technically correct).

    I am even willing to let go and agree Lara is better, because for all I care Lara is such a master batsman that it is no shame if he ends up edging out Tendulkar, bottom line both have a place in cricket history and there isn’t a lot of day light between them.

    Finally, Tendulkar has disappointed Indian fans on many occasions, personally I have a few matches that I can pick. I am older than Tendulkar and I have watched his progress since the time he made his debut, in fact I watches that test series live, same match where Waqar made his debut as well. When I was young the arrival of Tendulkar to Indian cricket was greeted with a lot of expectations. Many Indians including myself expected him to win matches single handed, and he did so in many matches, but we wanted more from him, we wanted him to win more important matches.

    For instance, I recall at least two CBFS cup finals in Sharjah between India and Pakistan where I hoped Tendulkar will win the match for India, he did not, I remember a match very vividly where Pakistan batted first and scored 250 odd, India started the chase and Tendulkar was opening, he made some great shots against Wasim Akram, I remember one shot where he cover drove Akram for four followed by a straight drive, Akram was shaking his head after that in disbelief, there was nothing wrong with the deliveries, in fact Akram was trying his best, yet Tendulkar made those shots, but soon after he got out trying to play another shot, he did not go beyond 30 odd runs while he needed to get a hundred to win that match, soon after that proceedings quietened as mediocre guys like Sidhu and Azhar were batting and India lost that match.

  73. #73 by newguy30 on October 26, 2009 - 11:08 PM

    I could not finish my earlier post, I wanted to conclude with another paragraph. So here goes.

    After the failures in the CBFS series I started having the realization that may be Tendulkar is not super human after all, but part of me still wanted him to win big matches, 96′ World Cup semi final against Sri Lanka was one such match. Batting second was so difficult, or so it appeared, that only Tendulkar could have won that match, he made 65 or so out of 120 odd that India made by the time Begali hooligans ended the match in the most shameless manner, but again Tendular did not get a big hundred and win the match. There were a few more, after that I lost faith in Tendulkar being able to win big matches for India and I lost faith in India’s ability to win big games, around the same time I also left India and soon lost touch with cricket, for a while, this is the same time frame when Tendulkar made progress as a batsman and he made many meaningful innings in Test cricket, and soon was joined by Ganguly, Dravid, and Laxman, I missed all of those years, but I came back to find out from archives, thanks to Internet you have things like YouTube.

    I have been back following all cricket for the last 3 years or so, and I have matured as a cricket fan, I no longer expect Tendulkar to win all matches, not even big matches, I don’t expect India to win all games, I know their limitations, I also know other teams and their skills and weaknesses, I just enjoy the games on their merit. Some things have changed though, India wins more matches than they lose now against quality opposition, Tendulkar also started contributing to winning big games.

    For instance, he won the CB series finals in Australia by hitting a hundred in first final, followed by a 90+ score in second final. He contributed to a series win in New Zealand, a very difficult place for sub-continental teams to win, his 163 not out in a ODI was a masterclass innings. He also made a hundred in the recent Compaq cup final in SL. Overall, Tendulkar is still around and he is winning matches now more than before, more importantly he is helping win big matches now.

    He is not yet done, this is where his true greatness comes in, so perhaps we are too early in judging him, there may yet be some innings left in him to play, at least one hopes so. If not, he has still achieved everything he could possibly, given of course there are human limitations.

  74. #74 by Shoaib on October 27, 2009 - 7:04 PM

    Wahh!! yaha to laraii ho rahi hay!!

    You know what i tell you whose the best batsman:

    1- Javed Khan
    2- Omer Hamdani
    3- aik aur….Khan sahab
    4- Varun

    Sorry for this ”bongii” i am half asleep, typing from my mobile, goodnight 🙂

  75. #75 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 28, 2009 - 1:30 AM

    Afridi shall be playing in for Australia and for South Africa as well. Although the reasons given is, “it will help him to gear up for the 2011 one day WC” but, in the process he would be making some good bucks.

    Ijaz Ahmad has been appointed as coach for U-19 which is a strange move because, Ijaz is one of those who were banned from playing, representing or even coaching the national teams and that includes U-19. Also, recently he was jailed for not providing sufficient funds in his account and a Rs. 1.3 million cheque was bounced and he was jailed. Can’t they find any other person to coach the U-19 team?

  76. #76 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 28, 2009 - 2:29 PM

    Varun

    I think Dhoni and Raina have read your comments and not only pulled up their socks but even their undergarments. A century from Dhoni was long awaited and he wasn’t scoring much in the past, so now his confidence must be high after this innings. Also, this seems to be a one sided match. Australia hasn’t got a good record chasing 300 plus totals. Already the top three including Ricky Ponting are back so there is not much interest left in this match.

    This is how India banks on their batting, their bowling is not that effective but, lucky lamboo got Shane Watson the first ball and Ricky was not happy with his LBW decision but, to me he was out.

    About Pakistan cricket

    YOUNUS KHAN or should I call him DRAMA KHAN?
    He has once again blabbered something new. “If my team and nation wants me to play T20, I will play.” WTF? He is a clown. In my opinion he should even retire from ODI’s and play just test cricket that’s all. There are two extremes to both Khan’s, Afridi doesn’t want to play test, he is such an idiot he wasted 4-5 years of his career by not playing seriously. He is a good test player but, his mindset is what people expect from him, boom boom Afridi. The culprit is Ravi Shastri who gave him this nick name of boom boom.

  77. #77 by Varun Suri on October 28, 2009 - 2:42 PM

    Javed,

    Maybe you are right or maybe they wanted to welcome me as I have come to India today for 5-6 weeks to attend a few weddings in the family.

    At the moment Hussey n White are still there and you can never trust the Indian Bowling so the match isn’t over yet!

  78. #78 by newguy30 on October 28, 2009 - 5:18 PM

    So India won today, not only that, they completely outplayed Australia. Aussies are struggling with a young team and it’s not easy on sub-continental pitches. Still it’s not easy to win against them anytime, so credit goes to India for their all round performance. Seamers bowled really well too which is an encouraging sign.

    But one cannot take too much from this performance, as it proves once again that Indian batsmen like Dhoni, Raina and Youvraj are kings of flat wicket batting, it is when times get tough like in South Africa recently that they have to prove they can do this there too.

    Anyhow, 2011 WC is in sub-continent so the flat track bullies have a lot to look forward to.

  79. #79 by khansahab on October 28, 2009 - 10:43 PM

    Omer

    Yes, and Gambhir made about twice as many runs as Sehwag at almost a strike rate of 100. He did his fair share of attacking the Australian bowlers and damaging their confidence, allowing Dhoni and Raina to rip the Australians apart. Advantage Gautam Gambhir.

    Please correct me if I am wrong and I offer my apologies in advance, but you have just proven your bias and that you also have certain “favourite” players, like all these commentators and bloggers you criticise and say are not neutral. Are you really neutral Omer?

  80. #80 by newguy30 on October 29, 2009 - 12:39 PM

    Omer,

    For once I have to agree with you, Sehwag makes a huge psychological difference to the team make up. The problem for the bowler is that he does not indulge in mindless slogging, if that were the case the bowler will think anytime he will lose his wicket, he will block some balls, take some lazy singles, then out of the blues goes for sixes and fours when the bowler is least expecting it. It’s like he attacks then withdraw for a while to take rest then attack them again.

    Last year Eng-Ind test in Chennai was won by Sehwag’s 80 odd runs, even though it was Tendulkar and Youvraj who did the completion job, it would not have been even thinkable without Sehwag. He just turned the match on it’s head after England declared, all the English bowlers were looking helpless, they didn’t know what hit them, and they didn’t know what to do, because Test matches are not played like that.

    so in some aspects Sehwag is underrated, but this is fine, Indian media does a fine job of trumpeting a lot of it’s heros 🙂 Let Sehwag go on unheralded, this might spur him on even further.

  81. #81 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 29, 2009 - 1:38 PM

    newguy

    In response to your latest comment #135 please read the last paragraph of my comment of October 26, 2009 at 3:57 AM | #116

    You are saying the same thing about Sehwag’s batting what I have said 3 days ago but, in different words.

    khansahab

    Gambhir has started playing steadily & consistently since the first T20 WC in SA, before that he wasn’t even noticeable. Agreed that he played consistently well in the past one year and also in the last 2 matches he scored sixty plus runs. But, in the first match when Sehwag scored only 13 runs, Gambir’s 68 odd runs were not much of help and India lost the match. Whereas, when Sehwag scored a quick 40 runs the Indians were able to post 354 on the board and that is because the bowlers were demoralized and the momentum was never lost.

    Tendulkar is in the playing XI simply because of his past glories, if there was any other opening batsman like Karthik or anyone, after two flop performances they would have dropped that opener, but Tendulkar will play in the next few matches they will not drop him, that is the difference between him and other players. If Tendulkar realizes this now that it is better for the team to have another batsman, then it is better now rather than realizing under pressure after a couple of more similar bad performances. I am sure if that happens, he will probably ask for a rest saying his elbow or his back is not 100%. I think he should do this sooner than later because, the series is leveled at the moment and he should make way for another player and Gambhir can get back and fit into his opening role with Sehwag.

    Ps

    Now that I have written something about Tendulkar, he will score in Mohali.

  82. #82 by newguy30 on October 29, 2009 - 4:01 PM

    Javed, yes I read your post #116 and that was in my mind when I wrote the same thing but in different words, you can say I was influenced 🙂 But I agree with it essentially, although I would say that is giving too much credit to Sehwag, I doubt he is that organized to pace an innings like that, he wants to hit sixes and fours more often than not and for whatever reason is not as successful on ODI/T20 as opposed to tests, I guess there is no limit on tests and the field settings are different, so this allows more free scoring.

    As for Tendulkar, I think it is unfair to say he is there because of past glories, and you cannot compare him to just another opening bat like Karthik. He has been performing more often than not and scoring at a high rate when he does score a fifty or hundred. The last 3 ODIs he played he has failed, and the last big score he had was the 100 in Compaq cup final. And to an extend the opening batting combination looks somehow better with Sehwag/Gambhir. But regardless of all this, he is still the most successful ODI player and he along with Ganguly holds the record for most 100 partnership in ODIs, Tendulkar and Sehwag is also in the top ten 100 run partnerships in ODIs.

    Tendulkar will not go on for too long without a big score, he will score either in Delhi or Mohali. Otherwise we might see him going out with an injury excuse 😉

    Everyone know Tendulkar is preserving himself to play for one for WC, he wants to play in 2011 and it is only good for India that he plays for as long as he can, if Sehwag or Gambhir were to get injured and cannot play then India has no other quality opener, they cannot depend on the likes of Karthik to open the innings.

  83. #83 by khansahab on October 29, 2009 - 8:40 PM

    Omer

    Gambhir came to bat in the 4th over when the ball was moving. He played very well and in fact he kept attacking in a controlled way. Actually, Gambhir shatters a bowler’s confidence as well because he often comes down the track to fast bowlers and hits them. If I was a fast bowler I would be very embarrassed if someone would do that to me.

    If Sehwag had not scored his 40 odd, India would still have managed 300+ thanks to Gambhir’s knock top of the order and then good batting by Dhoni and Raina later on.

    Javed A Khan

    In my opinion a played who comes at no 3, in the fourth over, and ends up making 76 from 80 balls has done much better than an opener who scores 40 runs from 31 balls. There is not a great deal of difference in the strike rate. A fast bowler would be more scared of a batsman who scores 50 regularly at a strike rate of 90 than someone who scores 25 regularly at a strike rate of 150.

    I know you want Tendulkar to retire and you are correct that he scores runs whenever you criticise him, but he is still in the top 10 ODI batsmen.:

    http://www.reliancemobileiccrankings.com/

    I don’t see how it can be argued that a top 10 batsman should not play that format in which he is “top 10” in?

  84. #84 by khansahab on October 29, 2009 - 9:53 PM

    Omer

    Gambhir has been playing international cricket for barely 5 years. To say he has reached his peak after 5 years is very premature and biased on your part.

    On his good day Sehwag will make 300, but normally what Sehwag makes in 5 matches, Gambhir makes in 3. Gambhir just has more good days than Sehwag it seems.

    That is one of the problems with this psyche which overrates players like Inzamam, Sehwag and Lara- their inconsistency is almost rewarded. So when they end up scoring once in 5 matches and displaying a rarer brilliance, we give them more credit for that than someone who consistently makes high scores.

    My example of 25 runs and strike rate of 150 was not for Sehwag; it was just a general example.

  85. #85 by newguy30 on October 30, 2009 - 2:03 AM

    Omer,

    Excellent post, your 141. You are right, another Sehwag can’t be found, and players like Sehwag can open up so many possibilities in the match. In the 2003 WC final, chasing Australia’s mammoth 340 odd score all Indian players fell under pressure, only Sehwag kept counter attacking and he made 82 runs at a fast rate, more importantly he would have thought there is a possibility for him to pull it off, while others would have mentally given up already.

    Among former Indian players Kapil Dev used to be somewhat like this with his batting, he could pull off impossible situations and counter attack, although not as successful as Sehwag, but he was an all rounder. In one test match against England, India needed 24 runs to avoid follow-on, Kapil was with last man Narendra Hirwani who cannot be trusted to last 4 balls, Kapil hit 4 sixes off Eddie Hemmings, follow-on was avoided, in the first ball of next over Hirawni was out promptly. This kind special ability is there for some players, but you cannot replace them.

  86. #86 by Shoaib on October 30, 2009 - 2:06 AM

    Lets talk about something different. Yesterday someone told me a news from Russia and it was fairly sad and hilarious same time. i will try to keep it short and interesting.

    A dirty Russian wanted to forcibly stick his sinrod deep into a raccoon’s stink, but instead today the man finds himself penisless, the victim of a ferocious mauling by the teeth of his would-be furry victim.

    Like so many stories that involve rape and pain, the backstory here started with a 44-year-old man named Alexander Kirilov and his best friends, who went out for a night.
    Unlike millions of normal Jacks and Jills who hit the weekend bar to get away from it all, however, this Kirilov took getting messed up to an all new level. 🙂

    As he staggered outside bar, likely in a side alley, Kirilov saw a raccoon who must have been seductively sauntering around a trashcan, teasing the Russian with its flowing furry locks and exposed backside.
    Kirilov then reportedly leaped onto the animal, pinning it down and trying to rape the creature………….and what happened next i can feel pain even typing that 😀

    Moral of the story: Man Tries to Rape Raccoon, Raccoon Bites Man’s Penis Off 😀

  87. #87 by newguy30 on October 30, 2009 - 12:51 PM

    Stats from Cricinfo article today on Sehwag vs. Gambhir this year in ODIs:

    Sehwag – 521 runs at 52.10 avg and rate of 8.42 runs per over
    Gambhir – 639 runs at 53.25 avg and rate of 5.61 runs per over

    Gambhir scored 1 run per innings than Sehwag, but Sehwag scored at almost 3 more runs per over.

    I didn’t know that Sehwag had an average of above 50 this year and his strike rate of over 8 runs per over is unbelievable at an average above 50.

    So one has to admit, opposition team absolutely dreads Sehwag at the crease, you got to get him out as there is no win by attrition strategy with him, while with Gambhir they can still try to win by attrition.

  88. #88 by khansahab on October 30, 2009 - 7:06 PM

    Omer

    Sehwag averages more than Ghambir in test matches

    Please get your information right before commenting. Sehwag averages 50.06 in Tests whereas Gambhir averages 54.07.

    Even Shoaib Malik and Mohammad Hafeez would have known that 🙂

    Why are you going back on your words and using averages to say one player is better than the other? I thought that was not your style? Or are you being inconsistent like how your role model Sehwag is inconsistent in batting?

  89. #89 by khansahab on October 30, 2009 - 7:12 PM

    Sad Pakistan team is divided on the basis of regionalism:

    Who the hell are Umer Akmal and Saeed Ajmal to complain about Younis Khan?

    Malik, Misbah, Akmal brothers, Ajmal, 2 fast bowlers complained about Younis

    ISLAMABAD: Some eight to nine cricketers headed by a senior member of the team called on Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) chairman Ijaz Butt on October 9 to express their no-confidence in Younis Khan and it was then and there the captain planned a counter strategy which included his resignation and brought about political pressure and planned ending of resignation not being accepted.

    The News’ has learnt from well placed sources in the PCB that the player who met with the PCB chairman and lodged complaint against the captain included former captain Shoaib Malik, Misbah-ul-Haq, the two Akmal brothers, Saeed Ajmal and two fast bowlers. In fact these players had requested for time from chairman in Johannesburg (South Africa) at the end of the Champions Trophy.

    “During the meeting with the chairman, these players made serious reservations on Younis’s ability to handle the team. In fact a few of players were so upset that they even refused to be part of the team if Younis continue to lead the team in future.”

    The general complaint, they had against Younis was about his dictatorial behaviour and his inability to take other players along with him.

    “He sees himself as some one superior to other players and always try to undermine others performance and their contribution in the success.”

    Even at a press conference in Johannesburg, when Younis was asked about the reason of not playing Mohammad Aamir in a match against Australia, he said he did not want to see youngsters and newcomers posing themselves as Wasim Akram (in case of Aamir) and Saqlain Mushtaq (in case of Saeed Ajmal).

    It is believed that after listing to the complaints against Younis, the PCB chairman decided to change guards at the helm of the team and gave Shahid Afridi green signal to lead the team.

    When Ijaz Butt was contacted before his departure to India on Wednesday, he refused to confirm or deny the whole episode. “My doors are open for national team cricketers and anyone can call on me,” he said.

    Former manager Yawar Saeed however refused to talk on cricket affairs anymore. “As far as cricket and comments on cricket are concerned, it is all over for me. I have nothing to say on this matter at all.”

    No-confidence from players caused

    Pakistan vice captain Shahid Afridi has admitted that some of his teammates had grievances against Younus Khan and he himself acted as a bridge between them and the skipper to resolve the matter.

    After Pakistan Cricket Board rejected Younus’ resignation and retained him as captain till 2011 World Cup, there were reports that one of the reasons for his shunning the job was attitude of some players including Afridi.

    “Some guys in the team have problems with Younus Khan and as they are hesitant to talk to him directly they approached me to convey their problems to him,” Afridi said without elaborating what the issues were.

    Afridi said the players had approached him since they wanted a solution to all the problems.

  90. #90 by khansahab on October 30, 2009 - 11:08 PM

    Omer

    In Tests Sehwag averages 60 in Australia, 40 in England, 20 in NZ and 26 in SA.

    Out of these countries Gambhir has only played Tests in NZ and averages 89.

    Sehwag averages 51 at home and 49 away. Gambhir averages 44 at home and 72 away. So your analysis that Gambhir appears a flat track bully appears quite flat and far from the truth.

    You can do the math- I hope your maths is better than Malik’s and Hafeez’s, anyway 🙂

    Gambhir and Sehwag are different batsmen- Gambhir provides stability and reliability (with a hint of aggression), Sehwag provides entertainment and from time to time he succeeds in damaging the opposition’s psyche. You completely underestimate Gambhir though and I have provided many statistics and arguments to demonstrate how wrong you are. I totally respect Sehwag and he is one of the few players that we have done an exclusive thread on- I think the others are only Fawad Alam and Younis Khan (the latter done by Javed A Khan).

  91. #91 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 31, 2009 - 12:32 AM

    khansahab on that news about Malak, Akmal et Co. complaining about Younus Khan, all I have to say is: In Pakistan there are two things:

    Dahshat Gardi
    Punjab Gardi

    They are just like a dog in the manger.

  92. #92 by khansahab on October 31, 2009 - 9:00 AM

    Javed A Khan

    There was some other news which I omitted to paste here because the source was Press Trust of India or some equivalent Indian masala news source (which put a spin on the news and are often quite negative as regards Pakistan) but now that this piece of news about player revolt has been promulgated by “The News” Pakistan, I might as well say it…..

    It said that the argument with Saeed Ajmal started when he said he was the new “Saqlain Mushtaq” and Younis told him to keep his feet on the ground. Whereas with Mohammad Aamir, Younis told him off for something and Aamir did not like it and said, “I am being compared with Wasim Akram and how can you speak to me like that?”

  93. #93 by Awas on October 31, 2009 - 10:37 AM

    When “a source” in a newspaper comes out with some ‘revelations’ there may be some validity there but it should be taken with a pitch of salt and considered in the backdrop of what comes out of the horse’s mouth himself. So, let’s see what Malik has to say himself about it all.
    ————————————————————————————-

    Malik denies lobbying against Younus

    Shoaib Malik has dismissed reports that he had led a group of players to the PCB Chairman to replace Younus Khan as captain.

    Appearing on a popular talk show on the Geo Super channel, Malik also denied he had led any campaign to have Younus replaced as captain.

    “Yes I did meet with the board Chairman but I never suggested to him to replace Younus nor supported the appointment of Afridi. That is not my job and you don’t change captains on minor issues. If we have any problems I can talk to Younus myself,” he said.

    “They are minor issues but we solve them and we support each other. I know all the players back the captain as well. They are absolutely no groupings in the team. We are a like a unit,” he said.

    Media reports and statements by Younus and Afridi had indicated that after the team returned home from the Champions Trophy, Malik had led a group of players to the PCB chairman and conveyed they didn’t want Younus to continue as captain.

    Malik said neither he nor any player of the team was bothered by allegations or groupings or match fixing as these only surfaced when the team lost.

    “Honestly speaking the players have become used to these stories. But I can say with certainty there is no match fixing taking place in our team and every player plays for his country with pride.”

    “But everyone must remember that cricket is a sport and no team can win everyday. Defeat must be accepted sportingly.Even the World Champions Australia lost the other day to India does it mean they under-performed deliberately.”

    Malik also welcomed the induction of young blood like Umar Akmal and Muhammad Aamer in the team but advised the upcoming players to make use of their good patch.
    Malik was replaced as captain by the PCB earlier this year by Younus Khan after Pakistan lost a one-day home series to Sri Lanka.

    Malik said he had no desire to run after the captaincy and was happy just playing as an ordinary member of the team.

    “I am very much relieved these days. I don’t want to be captain again. When I had this responsibility there was lot of tension for me and my family as well. So I am just happy now to perform as a senior player and give my input to the captain and management when asked by them. I am definitely more relaxed now,” Malik said.

  94. #94 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 31, 2009 - 2:50 PM

    khansahab

    That is the problem with India Pakistan media, fans and supporters that they start comparing the newbies with superstars and that is why most of them get rotten so soon. Saeed Ajmal, I can imagine he could say that but, Aamir I wasn’t expecting this from him. He should understand that he has just started his career and must not end up like Asaf. In India too, they do the same thing, when Raina played in Karachi and scored 80 odd runs they said, he is the new Tendulkar and that got into his head and that is why he was out of the scene for long time and now he is back again and I hope he believes he is Suresh Raina and not Sachin Tendulkar.

    Talking of Tendulkar, he was playing OK but, his short legs couldn’t give him the speed that he wanted and was run out. India is in a bit of a trouble at the moment unless Dhoni and Yuvraj play them out of the woods.

  95. #95 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 31, 2009 - 2:53 PM

    Awas

    Good to see you back, I hope you have solved your work issues and are on top of it? LOL at Malik’s statement that he doesn’t want to be captain again. Even he knows that he is not a captain’s material.

  96. #96 by newguy30 on October 31, 2009 - 3:18 PM

    khansahab :
    It said that the argument with Saeed Ajmal started when he said he was the new “Saqlain Mushtaq” and Younis told him to keep his feet on the ground. Whereas with Mohammad Aamir, Younis told him off for something and Aamir did not like it and said, “I am being compared with Wasim Akram and how can you speak to me like that?”

    LOL .. amazing, the level of stupidity shown by these players, “I am compared to Wasim Akram how can you speak to me like that?” – this is a newcomer talking to his captain? unbelievable. Notwithstanding the hyperbole from the media there is always some truth in all that. These guys should play themselves for a few years and get a reputation for themselves, instead of being the next somebody.

    LOL .. where do

  97. #97 by khansahab on October 31, 2009 - 5:09 PM

    We can beat Aussies at their home: Malik

    KARACHI: Prolific batsman Shoaib Malik said that world champions Australia are no longer invincible after the retirement of “great players” so Pakistan can beat them in their own den in the upcoming Test series.

    “I am quiet confident we can beat them because there is no doubt Australia have become weakened after the retirements of great players like Glenn McGrath, Shane Warne, Adam Gilchrist, Matthew Hayden and Justin Langer

    “This is visible from their performances since last year and I think Pakistan has its best chance to beat them for the first time in a Test series in their own backyard,” Malik said during a TV talk show before the team left for Abu Dhabi to play their One-day series against New Zealand.

    After next month’s battle against the Kiwis, Pakistan will travel to Australia in December for the Test and One-day series.

    Malik also felt Pakistan would emerge a much improved side after their tour to Australia because of the exposure players would get by playing in tough conditions.

    “When India came to Pakistan in 2004 after touring Australia they were a changed side and this showed in their attitude. Similarly when we went to India in 2005 after having been to Australia we were a much improved side with more self-belief in ourselves,” he said.

    The all-rounder said beating Australia in a Test series on their own backyard was a burning ambition for him.

    “If we can achieve this I would be the happiest man because it would be a big moment of my cricket career,” Malik said.

    He also made it clear that there were no differences in the Pakistan team now, the players back skipper Younis Khan and this would show in the coming series against New Zealand and Australia.

    Malik, 27, is also keen to improve upon his Test record. “Definitely I want to improve my record in Test cricket because that is the real challenge. I want to bring it at par with my performances in one-day matches. The coming series represent a big challenge for me to do this,” Malik, who has played just 26 Tests compared to his 185 One-dayers, said.

    Malik said that doing well against arch-rivals India has always brought more benefits for a player.

    “It is not that I have only performed well against India but such is the intensity of our matches that if you do well in an Indo-Pak match people tend to remember it for a long time and also appreciate you more for it.”

    Malik said that he had enjoyed scoring a century against India in the Champions Trophy but he would not say it was his best innings.

  98. #98 by JAVED A. KHAN on October 31, 2009 - 8:01 PM

    khansahab

    Seeing Australian batting and bowling in the current ODI series one can say Malik is not too optimistic to say ‘we can beat Australia in Australia. However, the same Australian team plays different when they are playing in their own backyard because there aren’t any flat tracks and the same fast bowlers will become unplayable for Pakistani Champions. I think Afridi should reconsider his stupid decision of opting out of the test squad. His previous record in test against Australia in Australia is very good.

    It is very likely that India will win this series at least by 5-2 margin. Dhoni is back in form and his not outs will improve his average.

  99. #99 by khansahab on October 31, 2009 - 8:07 PM

    Omer

    Ghambir has only played relatively less matches, mostly on flat wickets, and against bowlers which aren’t as good.

    I don’t know if you noticed, but Gambhir has actually been playing the SAME bowlers and on SAME pitches as Sehwag for the past 5 years. So, undermining Gambhir’s achievements by using this excuse of pitches and bowlers, works against Sehwag too.

    Sehwag made his Test debut in 2001 and Gambhir, 3 years later. So they belong to the same era, unless you are advocating that a miracle happened in 2001 and bowling became very hard to play and then from 2004 onwards it became very easy. Whatever the difference was, it was negligible.

    As I said earlier, you are just obsessed with Sehwag’s rare excellence which makes you look down upon other players who are also worthy of praise. Gambhir’s contribution has been immense in India being a top team in the past 2-3 years. Unfortunately, many of us do not reward consistency and take it for granted sometimes. We like to talk about Inzamam’s match winning efforts, or Razzaq’s “1 in 20 matches” match winning efforts, but we don’t realise that if Pakistan had a Gambhir and a Tendulkar, it would have been a top 3 team for the past decade.

    In fact, you can look at Pakistan’s problems now and realise how much consistency and the ability to play the moving ball is needed in the team.

  100. #100 by khansahab on October 31, 2009 - 8:17 PM

    Omer

    Malik did not “show form” in the last Test series. He made a century in the last Test, when Pakistan had already lost the series. And then in the Champions Trophy he only performed in 1 out of 4 matches. How can you say that is “good form”? And in that last Test, the pitch was very flat, unlike the one on which Fawad Alam scored a century.

    I have seen this quality in you that you contradict your own principles when you make comments- for instance you have frequently advocated that meaningless centuries (i.e. those that don’t win series, or those that are made on flat tracks) don’t matter that much. But you are considering Malik’s meaningless centuries so much that you have softened your stance on him.

    Please don’t take my criticism personally; but it seems you have your own set of favourite players like Sehwag and Lara, and then some players like Gambhir and Tendulkar whom you don’t value as highly, whereas strangely enough your opinion on Malik has softened considerably even though he has done nothing different to how he has been playing all his career. So on that basis you ought to soften your stance on Tendulkar and Gambhir as well.

  101. #101 by khansahab on October 31, 2009 - 11:17 PM

    Omer

    I understand the point about Malik’s performances against minnow sides, but he has always performed brilliantly against India. That is exactly my point over why I underplayed his century against India because he would perform against them no matter what. India is an exception, not the norm.

    I am not so bothered about who is an entertainer and who makes the game look appealing. Sehwag has no match and I know he is irreplaceable, but at the same time his type of batting carries a risk which is why he averages 32 or 33 in ODI’s, whereas Gambhir is averaging more by every passing game. I remember in 2008 Gambhir was averaging around 40 in Tests- his growth as a batsman has been phenomenal. You have to realise the following:

    1) He is an opener normally and opening is the hardest batting position to play in

    2) He has a good record against good sides

    3) He is a batsman who plays according to the situation. I disagree that he starts and ends his innings at the same standard. One of his centuries against South Africa was made by firstly playing aggressively but when the Indian middle order crumbled, he slackened his pace and played more slowly. He received a lot of accolades for that knock- it signified his growth as a world class batsman.

    Yes, I agree Gambhir is not in the same league as Tendulkar, but was Tendulkar so good in 1994 as Gambhir is now (i.e. after playing international cricket for 5 years)? The answer is no. I am very mindful of the possibility that Gambhir may well lose form soon. But, the fact that he has achieved a LOT in a short span of time cannot be denied. He has been ICC Test Player of the Year and recently he has received 2 very high civilian awards from the Indian government.

    Sehwag’s Test form has more or less been the same, but it is a fact that India has benefited considerably from Gambhir’s form in the past 2 years. In his last 10 Tests, he has hit 7 fifties and 5 centuries. In those last 10 matches Gambhir has played, India has won 4, lost 1 and drawn 5 matches. So, that is a pretty good record.

    You yourself have stated that a good team has to have balance between players with different specialisms. If Pakistan has players like Imran Nazir and Afridi, who can partake the role Sehwag assumes in the batting line up (although of course, Nazir and Afridi are lesser batsmen), Pakistan also needs a Gambhir in their line up. The trouble is, Pakistan does not have an opener like Gambhir. India has benefited so much from having a consistent run accumulator, who luckily happens to be an opener.

  102. #102 by Mohammed Munir on November 1, 2009 - 7:21 AM

    Just in case, here is something little different then cricket:

    UAE have opened a brand new Grand F-1 race circuit on Yas Island, Abu Dhabi.

    The finals of the first ever Day-Night Formula 1 – Abu Etihad Airways Grand Prix 2009 will be held today at 17.00 pm (local time).

    Have a look:

    http://www.yasmarinacircuit.com/default.html

    http://www.formula1.com/

    PS: Seeing F-1 live for the first time in my life, was truly an exceptional and unforgetable experience.

  103. #103 by khansahab on November 1, 2009 - 7:45 AM

    Omer

    I understand, but just one correction- I have honestly only followed Gambhir’s progress in the last 2 years when he has changed India’s fortunes. I barely cared about him until 2008 or so.

  104. #104 by Varun Suri on November 1, 2009 - 12:30 PM

    Omer @ 168,

    It is for the same reasons you’ve mentioned that Sehwag cannot be compared with Tendulkar!!

    You only started talking about Gambhir in the beginning and compared him with Sehwag and Yes it makes sense to wait for Gambhir to reach Sehwag’s experience and although i am not a man of predictions but mark my words Gambhir is another Dravid in the making and hopefully he will have a very long career and when both of them finish then we will see how history remembers Gambhir and Sehwag until then it is pointless to debate who is better so this debate should be adjourned until both finish their careers!!

  105. #105 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 1, 2009 - 11:40 PM

    Munir

    The whole of Montreal and the entire province of Quebec is cursing Abu Dhabi for taking away this event from Montreal. It used to bring US$300 million business during the F-1 week-end. Because of that I shall be losing CAD4000 business every year. The race used to held here in second week of June every yearand the circuit is on an island and from both sides the river St. Lawrence is flowing with all its might. My house is 2 minutes from the river but, the circuit is about 10 k.m. away on the north side and there is so much noise during that week-end and also before that i.e., when they are doing practice laps that you have to keep the doors and windows shut to avoid noise pollution.

    In case you don’t know, river St. Lawrence is the oldest river in the world, it is from the ice age times, don’t believe me Google it. And, here in the city it is 4 k.m. wide and it flows towards the Atlantic and gets wider and wider and becomes Gulf of St. Lawrence and it is 150 k.m. wide and then it joins the Atlantic.

    For the F-1, not only the Americans but, fans from all over Europe used to come and during that week, hotels are fully booked from the moment the dates are announced i.e., in October/November. And, believe it or not, the small hotels charge a package of $1200 for 3 nights per room for 2 people and the five star hotels charge about $6500 per night, per room for 2 people and that includes a VIP ticket for 2.

    Anyways, I am not a fan of F-1 race, not just because of the noise pollution but, you really can’t make out who is in the lead and who is behind? For me that sport is like American football or baseball. I would enjoy a one hour Jet Boating in the river St. Lawrence, take a look at this link, click on the video and watch it, at least here you are a part of the fun and not just a spectator.

    http://www.jetboatingmontreal.com/

  106. #106 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 1, 2009 - 11:54 PM

    Varun

    Yar please Dravid ko gali tou na dou! I mean there is no comparison between Dravid and Gambhir, game wise Dravid is known as THE WALL and has great temperament while he is batting and, off the field he is a GENTLEMAN, I have never seen any Indian, Pakistani or a player from any country who is so nice, sober and humble, and always praised the opposition even after losing.

    Whereas, Gambhir he still has flaws in his batting technique and the way he got out on that ball from Hauritz in Delhi is an example, prior to that ball, twice he made the same mistake of playing a shot with an angular bat and Hauritz got him the next ball. He also tries to poke his bat to a ball which is moving away from him and that he has to learn from Dravid i.e., to leave the tempting and teasing ball alone, especially when you have not assessed the pitch, movement, variation etc.

    As regards Gambhir’s temperament and attitude, both on the field and off the field he is a very bad ambassador of the country, he has a big foul mouth and all the time he is saying FU and MC, BC and he is not cool like Dravid is, in fact he is very arrogant and these are my analysis about him without any bias. Sehwag, you look at him he never swears and he stays calm, composed and cool.

    Yuvraj thinks too much of himself but, not Sehwag. I have noticed many times when Yuvraj hits a six he stares at bowlers and opposition and shows a very angry face. That is OK and I am not saying its a bad thing. But, Sehwag never does that, i.e., because, from inside or I can say Sehwag’s inner self is very soft and humble and, game wise he is very aggressive, which is what you want to see in a player.

  107. #107 by Varun Suri on November 2, 2009 - 4:52 AM

    Javed@177,

    Well i did not say that he is already the WALL but one in the making. As far as temperament is concerned i know why you are so pisssed by him because he took Panga once with your favorite player and that is Afridi. I am not too concerned about his temperament because sooner or later he will realise that if he wants to be remembered as one of the Game’s true greats then he will have to control himself and there is no scarcity of psychologists and trainers who can guide him in this direction. All i am concerned is that he should try to constantly improve his batting as Tendulkar is trying to do even now and not get too overconfident by looking at his past records.

    I am not too big a fan of Yuvraj mainly because of his arrogance and false pride which runs deep in their family, even his dad was kicked out of the Indian Team for indiscipline amongst other things.

    It is very convenient for you all here to dig up old graves by bringing back Mumbai 26/11 when very conveniently the Politics and the Mumbai page was deleted when it was so evident Who and Where those attacks were hatched up. It’s a shame that amongst all the News Media you would only read what you’d like to read and by the way who is this Amaresh Mishra? What are his credentials? Is he not just one of those journalists who is just trying to get some publicity by being a bit controversial.

    I would not go any further on this subject as we discussed it in great detail last year and once the Mumbai and Politics page was deleted I took it as a Silent Acknowledgment by the owners of this Blog that, that Mumbai Attacks were hatched up in Pakistan and since other than the usual Conspiracy Theories which are particularly fascinating for Javed A. Khan there is no other concrete proof that it was not hatched by or in Pakistan!

    I would request Javed A. Khan to come out of his Dream-World from the Banks of the River St. Lawrence in Kane-da and visit Pakistan sometime now and he would realize just as Mrs Clinton did in her recent trip about how clueless Pakistani Authorities are whether it is Taliban or any other extremist elements present within the Country.

  108. #108 by Varun Suri on November 2, 2009 - 5:15 AM

    Javed,

    I don’t know what to expect from you when you do not even consider Javed Miandad as a foul-mouthed and a abusive personality as you had recently said that he never used to abuse when the whole world knows about his provocative arguments with all the batsmen of his era and more so there is also a spoof made by some Pakistani which is all over Youtube where someone is trying copy the way Miandad used to talk and all one can hear is BC and MC.

  109. #109 by Mohammed Munir on November 2, 2009 - 5:19 AM

    Javed Khan …

    Only you can know what I am talking about on the F-1 racing, it sure is either for the young or young-at-heart 😉

    I always had a thing for the motor racing and have attended several races, but this was my first experience with the F-1. This is the very first in the UAE and probably only second in the entire Middle East F-1 facility.

    I never knew that this event was taken over from Montreal, Canada and I am sorry to hear that you will loose some business because of this F-1 Grand Prix being moved to Abu Dhabi, but at least we saved you the noise-pollution, didn’t we ? 

    F-1 is a costly affair and as you rightly said about the hotels and other business opportunities around it, yes similarly, Abu Dhabi opened-up 7 new 4/ 5 star hotels at the Yas Island only to cater to the F-1 teams/ fans from all over the world. These hotels which were running fully booked were in addition to the normal hotels in Dubai and Abu Dhabi which all reported almost full occupancy during the first ever F-1 week in UAE.

    BTW, Abu Dhabi have tied-up with the F-1 for at least seven years starting from 2009 till 2016, and so we would be seeing many more events right here in UAE. Nevertheless, the hype and publicity around this first event was extraordinary.

    Coming back to the ‘Jetboating’, well this looks really something very exciting. I never heard of this before and the video link you sent made a great viewing. I am not a very adventurous person myself, but I am not totally freaked-out also, and so it gives me one more reason to visit Canada (before I die, that is) 🙂

  110. #110 by Varun Suri on November 2, 2009 - 5:46 AM

    Omer @ 175,

    Just for the purpose of analysing i compared the batting records of Gambhir and Sehwag after he played 25 Test Matches.

    Matches Runs Highest Average Centuries Fifties
    G.Gambhir:- 25 2271 206 54.07 6 10

    V.Sehwag*:- 25 2157 309 53.92 7 3

    As you can see that the records of both of them are almost similar with Gambhir slightly edging out Sehwag on total runs scored, average and fifties scored but Sehwag has a 300 to his name and also he is a more complete player as he is also a Bowler so definitely he is a more all-round player than Gambhir but that is not the point of debate here the point of discussion here mainly is their Batting and it would be unfair on your part to assume that Gambhir’s average would fall in the next 25 Test-Matches to around 40, that is something only time will tell because if he keeps his head cool and maintains his fitness then he would probably end up playing longer than Sehwag and maintain his current average so this is nothing but just a case of personal bias as khansahab has already pointed out that You are so fascinated by the big tons scored by Lara and Sehwag that you are overlooking other aspects of comparison.

  111. #111 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 2, 2009 - 12:53 PM

    4 run outs by Indian fielders in one innings? This must be a record. If they win this match, which they should as the target is achievable then it should be because of their fielding today.

    At 193 for 3 in 37 overs I was thinking Aus will make 300 plus but, they collapsed soon after Hussey’s departure. I think Ponting’s run out was the key. Anyways, lets see the Indian batting now.

  112. #112 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 2, 2009 - 12:54 PM

    On cricinfo, I saw the Pakistani probables for tomorrow’s match and they are:

    Pakistan (probable): 1 Salman Butt, 2 Kamran Akmal (wk), 3 Younis Khan (capt), 4 Mohammad Yousuf, 5 Shoaib Malik, 6 Umar Akmal, 7 Shahid Afridi, 8 Naved-ul-Hasan/Abdul Razzaq, 9 Umar Gul, 10 Mohammad Aamer, 11 Saeed Ajmal

    LOL @ Salman Butt’s selection once again. And why axe Abdul Razzaq in favour of Rana Naiyee?

  113. #113 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 2, 2009 - 1:05 PM

    Varun;

    Don’t go on hearsay about Javed Miandad’s abuse. He was definitely a pest who would get under the opposition’s skin and irritate them but, he was never an abuser saying MC, BC or FU. I have seen him and met him in the UAE a few times also, people who have remained close to him they also confirm that he never use MC, BC, or FU (you may ask people of his generation that the word FU was not used in his times as it is today) in his communication on or of the field. It is because of his very ordinary looks and lack of eduction and unable to communicate properly media has created a very bad image of his. He is still better looking than Praveen Kumar btw 😉

    Btw, that Gambhir and Afridi spat has nothing to do with my not liking Gambhir’s attitude. Despite all the bad publicity of Yuvraj and his dad, I don’t recall Yuvraj uttering MC BC stuff. Those who do all the time are Gambhir, Nehra, Harbhajan, Munaf Patel, so correct me if I am wrong.

  114. #114 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 2, 2009 - 1:20 PM

    Javed Khan …Only you can know what I am talking about on the F-1 racing, it sure is either for the young or young-at-heart 😉 Munir.

    Munir, UAE is a different market, where the young local lads can throw in any amount of money, but all over the world, the young ones cannot afford F-1 racing tickets. The lowest or the cheapest ticket of general stand here was CAD250 per day. Therefore, those who follow the circuit (means travel from one destination to another) are generally rich and are in their mid forties and above.

    The other thing that used to happen here is, ALL the F-1 cars go on parade in downtown a day before the rally and during the week-end, most of the downtown streets are closed for vehicles (only pedestrians are allowed) and all the top best cars of the world are displayed on the streets like, the Crescent Street, Ste-Catherine Street (my office is right there) and believe it or not that week-end starting from Friday to Sunday night is like a festival time with hundreds and thousands of youngsters dancing, partying all night, live bands, pretty gals (khansahab and Omer would like to be there) and there are about 4000 restaurants and bars in downtown, they all serve food on patios, terraces and pavements…… you may visit before you are 70 years old.

    Btw, there are thousands and thousands of Arab students here and they all live in downtown because of the 4 universities in downtown, 2 French and 2 English Universities, namely McGill and Concordia.

    Varun

    I have been to Pakistan, I enjoy being there, but I love Montreal 😀

  115. #115 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 2, 2009 - 5:03 PM

    What a beginning and what an ending? After Sehwag demoralized and plundered Johnson’s morale and when he was out on 30, I decided to go to work assuming Tendulkar will play anchor role and others will chip and the match should be in India’s pocket and now, I am sure no one would believe how Indian batting collapsed. What a shame.

  116. #116 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 2, 2009 - 5:14 PM

    Varun

    Thanks for understanding the point and accepting it. Yes, these young players do need to learn from the former players. I did mention the names of Indian players but, that doesn’t mean there aren’t any in Pakistan. The most arrogant player was Aamir Churail and, now among the new ones it is Churail Tanvir. I think that name Sohail or Churail has got something to do with the abusive lingo and arrogance.

    Miandad was not abuser but a big time irritating person especially for the opposition and that is why Ravi Shastri said, ” I hated Miandad’s guts.” It was not only for his determination to stay at the crease but, stay with so much confidence and also keep bugging the players and that was not his initiative but, a reaction. Here is what Gavaskar said:

    In Sharjah when Chetan Sharma was bowling he was arranging and rearranging the field. Miandad came close to Sharma and asked him what is your hotel room number? Sharma was a bit shocked and upset but, he did not stop the field changes and Miandad didn’t stop asking the same question. Gavaskar asked Sharma what is he asking you? Sharma said, ‘some stupid question’ Gavaskar asked phir bhee? He said, he is asking my hotel room number then Gavaskar said, OK tell him the number so that he won’t bug you. When Miandad asked Sharma the same question again, Sharma gave him the hotel room number and Miandad replied, ” Udhar bhee ek fielder khara kar lay. ”

    Gavaskar was laughing when he was narrating this incident by saying this is Javed Miandad and that was his reaction to Sharma’s frequent field arrangement and rearrangement.

  117. #117 by khansahab on November 2, 2009 - 7:55 PM

    Omer

    Yes, what a confidence-shattering knock by Sehwag. If he can play more of these confidence shattering knocks of 30 somethings he will have to work on his bowling and become an Afridi if he wants to continue playing international cricket. Otherwise the doors of club cricket are always open for him.

    Big deal he hurt one bowler’s stats- Australia got India out for 226 and the rest of the bowlers ripped India apart. What good did that knock do? How did it help India win the match? And what was so “match winning” about this knock?

  118. #118 by newguy30 on November 2, 2009 - 8:03 PM

    Hi Javed/Omer,

    Australia is never easy to beat, they fight hard for every run, their fielding makes up for whatever shortage they have. The turning point was Youvraj runout, they should not have taken on Ricky Ponting for that run, because he hits the stumps nine out of ten times, Youvraj wasn’t running slow on or anything, after that the pressure was too much on Dhoni. When Dhoni is batting with Youvraj it’s a different game as opposed to Dhoni with others, this is because Dhoni gets so much confidence from batting with Youvraj.

    I don’t think Sehwag’s attack on Johnson carried on to other Aussie bowlers, Tendulkar was looking good, he was a bit slow, but then he was setting himself up for a big innings, and when he does that he plays himself in, his LBW was wrongly given, he was hit in line of leg stump and ball was going down the leg, replays confirmed this. If Tendulkar was not given out at that stage match would have been different.

    Anyhow, 3 more games to go and India need to win 2 out of it, should be possible.

  119. #119 by newguy30 on November 2, 2009 - 9:01 PM

    Khansaheb/Omer,

    Sehwag has to do better than these 30s that he has been making in the last few games, he gets the start, crashes a few boundaries and sixes then gets out. This is not going to win matches, India needs at least a half century from him and at least one another batsman to win games. At least one century partnership or a couple of 60-70 run partnerships were required. The 30s and 40s will not win matches. This is why India missed Gambhir today, he is one player who could have anchored the innings at the top, with Kohli coming in at #3 they lost the batting rhythm, and he was not going to make a significant contribution. Next game Gambhir will be back and India will be charged up to win again. Tendulkar and Sehwag, both needs to get a half century if not more, both are short of runs in this series.

  120. #120 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 12:54 AM

    khansahab & newguy

    First of all LOL @ khansahab’s sarcasm in sending Sehwag to club level cricket.

    Guys if you always expect at least a 50 from Sehwag in every match then, all other players to contribute 50’s and 40’s then India will always be scoring 400 plus runs. That doesn’t happen.

    The point that Omer and I are trying to emphasize here is, after Sehwag plundered the best bowler Mitchel Johnson, Tendulkar should have also come out more aggressively but, he didn’t in fact at one point Sehwag scored 30 in 14 balls, Tendulkar has scored 8 in 22 balls, him being a senior player and also of that high caliber that he is considered as the BEST ODI player in the world because of his 16993 runs and 44 centuries, he should have taken the lead after Sehwag’s departure and that would have relieved some pressure from young Virat Kohli, who saw his mentor struggling to get runs and he edged to Bollinger.

    Like Omer said, he was in a shell trying to score 17000 runs today and look at his 40 runs in 68 balls a strike rate of pathetic 58. And, mind you this is the best innings he played in the last 5 matches. The effect of Sehwag was so much that Johnson couldn’t bowl in any of his spells despite the confidence shown by his captain Ponting, who kept bringing him back and each time he was clubbed because of poor line and length.

    Archimedes said: “Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the earth (with a lever).” Likewise, Sehwag says: “Give me some width and I will dispatch the ball over the ropes.”

    The first ball he faced from Johnson with a little bit of width and it went flying over the point fielder and one bounce over the rope and in his 30 with 7 fours, six of them were from Johnson’s bowling and each one went like a rocket.

  121. #121 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 1:05 AM

    Since India has lost today and the series is 2-2 (looking more like a Noora Kushti to many people) they need a break before playing in Hyderabad on Nov. 5th. So, lets give them a break and talk about tomorrow’s match in Abu Dhabi.

    This is another Ch2-Panti team selection, I wonder why they have to keep bringing back Salman’s Butt? This is the reason why Malik does not want to open the innings with Akmal because, this way he can create room for Nikki Butt to get in to the playing XI. Salman Butt should not be in the squad and I don’t know how many times they will try him? Tendulkar justifies selection because of his 17000 odd runs and 44 centuries but, what has Salman behind his Butt?

    It may sound odd that I am bringing Tendulkar into this discussion but, it is relevant because, like the expression goes, Tout en une fin, or ‘everything comes to an end.’ Look at Jayasuriya, they have removed him from the opening slot and bringing him as an all-rounder who can bat at number 6-7 and also bowl. They do not have the guts to sack Jayasuriya or drop him, but this (Indian tour of SL) will be his last chance to prove his slow death or euthanasia whichever he chooses.

  122. #122 by Varun Suri on November 3, 2009 - 7:12 AM

    Yaar, Omer Manmani from where did you get hold of this website THAIINDIAN?

    aur koi website nahi mila apna point prove karne ko….pehle wo saari arguments wapis le ke aao jo maine last year likhi thhi only then i would get in to this debate…

    In Btw why are you so perturbed by what Varun Gandhi says? He is CH2So4 as J>A>K says and a very insignificant politician as it is BJP is FINISHED in India so stop worrying about Hindu Extremism and look for solutions for Islamic Extremism all over the World including places like Malaysia where discrimination is systematically induced in the constitution..or for that matter the Arab world which is still the most Racist in the World.

    and as i had said so many times last year the threat of Hindu Extremism is only within India, all these Hindu Extremist do not have any ambitions to rule the world or make Hinduism the only dominatiing religion as some of the Jewish or Islamic or even Christian extremists aspire to do….

    As long as Hindu Extremists creat raucous n chaos inside India, it should not be a cause of botheration to any Non-Indian and specifically our dear neighbours because you have bigger problems to solve than focussing on this insignificant issue.

    Has there been any Hindu Extremist who has exploded himself on the Pakistani Soil ?
    NO, So stop worrying about wrong things and instead put your brains at work to find a solution for peaceful co-existence between Sindhis, Pathans, Punjabis, Balochs, Shias and Sunnis….

  123. #123 by Varun Suri on November 3, 2009 - 7:16 AM

    All arguments against Tendulkar does not mean anything as Once again as it has happened so many times in his career that the decision was a bit harsh otherwise he was really in the mood to score big yesterday.

    Anyways, as someone mentioned we missed Gambhir yesterday and now when he is back in the next one let’s see what the result is.

  124. #124 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 3:15 PM

    the Arab world which is still the most Racist in the World. Varun

    Varun I have been saying this from a long time but to no avail. And, look at the entire Western world, India, Pakistan and all other countries are sucking up to them, WHY? Paisa and Politics! The west doesn’t want any democracy in the Arab world because the monarchy suits them so why the HELLO are they interested in implementing democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan and other countries?

    As regards Hindu Extremists exploding himself on Pakistani soil, first of all NO Pakistani Muslim has exploded himself on the Indian soil either. So, you should not worry about Pakistani Muslims or extremists. If you talk about Kashmiris they are Indians aren’t they? 😀 The Tamils are Hindus and they have exploded themselves in India, remember that woman who exploded herself in Chennai to kill Rajiv Gandhi? Who was she? The smaller incidents are not reported by the media, but it happens, its not that India is a Paradise of Peace.

    The other report is most of the so-called Talibans or whoever got killed in ambush are not even Muslims it has been proved so many times when they discovered their uncut diamonds and rubies. An extremist Muslim will never leave that thingi uncut. Most people talk openly about who they are and from where they are and I am not going to write it here, its for you to find out.

  125. #125 by Varun Suri on November 3, 2009 - 6:12 PM

    Nobody really wants to suck upto the Arabs…the day someone invents an alternative to Petrol it will all end. It’s the same reason why most of the Western Europe is dependent on Russia for OilnGas. Arabs have straightaway jumped from Camels to Ferraris when the Americans discovered Oil for them in the 1920-30’s (they can boast about whatever wealth and development they have achieved in the recent past but dimaag se abhi bhi wohi hai jo 100 saal pehle thhe)and Unfortunately Saudi Arabia is sitting over 200 Years of Oil n Gas Reserves which is not a good sign because if by then they are able to export their brand of Wahabbism to all corners of the Globe then the Judegement Day would not be that far and we will all die killing each other…

  126. #126 by Varun Suri on November 3, 2009 - 6:18 PM

    Omer point taken but the real problem arises when Saudia uses Mecca and Islam as tools to portray themselves as the most pure land or the most sacred land and then all the poor and ignorant Muslims of the Subcontinent or Malaysia or Indonesia start viewing them as the most perfect Society or the most perfect Heaven on earth and start to believe in their way of life blindly this feeling combined with poverty are the real reasons behind any Muslim whether Indian or Pakistani becoming a Terrorist.

  127. #127 by newguy30 on November 3, 2009 - 11:19 PM

    Omer,

    On your items #1 to #4, point #2 comparing Hindutva ideologues to Taliban is taking it to the extreme and laughable. No one would ever state these two are same, Hindutva ideologues such as RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, and Shiv Sena are for sure extremists, and they do have their supporters, but they will never ever get to the level of danger that Taliban proposes, not because they are lesser evil, but because they will never get that power. Indians are far more secular society than any in the sub-continent to let that happen.

    In fact BJP has to run as a toned down version of these ideologues to get into power, why was it that LK Advani who is the more hard core leader could not get to PM position in India, and they had to compromise by having the more secular and hence the less hard liner AB Vajpayee become PM? Because the Indian society will never allow a Hindu hardliner to be the commander in chief.

    They seek power, through the watered down BJP, but as Varun said before BJP is finished in India.

  128. #128 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 4, 2009 - 1:51 AM

    Varun; ********** Munir you must also read this

    It is a wrong assumption that the ignorant blokes of the sub-continent, Malaysia and Indonesia view SA as the most perfect society or the most perfect Heaven on earth. Most people openly say that the Saudis are very rude and arrogant and the only reason they have to tolerate them is because of the two holy lands Mecca and Medina. And, mind you it is not Saudi Arabia’s property. They are taking undue advantage of the fact that these two holy lands are in that country.

    It is the governments of the sub-continent and Malaysia, Indonesia etc., they suck up to the Saudi Shaikhdom and that is only to get some charity and protection.

    There are many, many educated people who say that Mecca and Medina should be independent like the Vatican and there should be no Saudi influence or control over it.

    Since the last few years the Saudi government has imposed very high Hajj and Umra fees and it is a wrong assumption that they spend their petro dollars towards the improvement of these places during the Hajj season. There are 3 million people performing Hajj every year and if they pay 1000 dollars towards the Hajj fees (not to mention the amount they spend in SA during their stay, the fees alone collected is 3,000,000,000, how much is that ……… 3 billion? This is just the Hajj fees that is collected, there is Umra fees to and millions of people perform Umra during the entire year, so double that amount.

    It is more than enough to provide 5 star facilities but, look at the mess that happens during the Hajj time and the economy gets a big boost from the Hajees who stay in the hotels and buy consumer products, the service industry gets a big boost. And the amount of lambs, goats, cows and camels that are slaughtered and sacrificed by these people are all collected by the Saudi government and processed in the food labs and even the skin and bones are processed, packed and profited upon. So, who are they fooling?

    So, who is saying that these hypocrites are doing any favour to the Muslim world? When their own Shaiks or any member of the ruling family comes to the Kabah for the Tawaf, the security forces cordon off the entire area for them and they perform Hajj like V. VIP’s like no one should be touching their shoulders.

    When the Saudi, Kuwaiti, UAE and other nationality students they come here and say, brother, brother, brother, I tell them to F off, I am not your brother. The way you guys treat Indians and Pakistanis in your country is highly deplorable, you treat them like trash and here you call us brother? Go, F yourself. And, they can’t do anything to you here, they simply listen like cowards. And, I remind the Kuwaitis that when Saddam Hussain’s forces entered Kuwait, they are the first one to run away to Saudi Arabia and to the UAE, whereas some Indians and Pakistanis remained in Kuwait throughout the Gulf War.

    What F’king business has Osama Bin Ladin has in Pakistan and Afghanistan? That MF is a Saudi and the Americans are still friends with the Bin Ladin family and the Saudi government. Reportedly all the nineteen so-called terrorists involved in 911 bombing were Arabs, 15 Saudis, 3 UAE nationals and 1 Egyptian or, whatever that number is, but there was not a single Pakistani or Afghani among them and since 911 Afghanistan is being bombed. Whereas, there is nothing to destroy and yet they keep bombing that Godforsaken country.

  129. #129 by Varun Suri on November 4, 2009 - 3:33 AM

    Javed saab for once “I am in your agree totally” and from my own experiences with working with Arabs not in Middle_East but in Europe i can say that not only they are the most Racist but also the biggest Hypocrites they share the No.1 Rank probably with the Americans.

    The normal tendency of any American towards Europe is that “We saved your asses in 1945” and normally my answer to this is What have you done since 1945? starting with Korean Wars, Vietnam, skirmishes in South-America, support for Saddam during Iran-Iraq War and when he got out of hand taking over of Iraq, creating a big mess in Afghanistan and now Pakistan is also dragged into the mess and maybe in few years India would also actively involved in the Bush’s War on Terror. Most of this was due to insatiable appetite of the Americans for the World’s Oil. Consider this they are 5% of World’s population but consume about 20% of World’s resources and after these facts MF/BC/MC Bush had the audacity to say last year that People in India and China have started eating more that’s we have a Food Shortage Crises when at their own backyard they even started producing fuel frolm Corn.

    There is so much coverage and good-will for the Americans in the Netherlands that Jokingly people say that it is the 53rd State of USA. 52 ofcourse being CANADA! But most of the Americans from the South like Mississipi,Oklahoma, Florida and Texas do not view Canada in any positive light and think that they are totally dependent on USA for their Security as Canada is protected from immmigrant troubles by America in the South and the Pacific Ocean protects them in the East while Arctic Snow protects them in the North and the West.

    Omer,

    Agreed that BJP won 116 seats as of now but if they do not reform themseleves before the next elections then this number is sure to go down in the next elections because BJP is suffering from lack of leadership and the current BJP president Rajnath Singh is a stooge of RSS and VHP and hence they took extreme Talibani style measures to expel Jaswant Singh and probably Arun Shourie.

    Once upon a time when Vajpayee was at the helm of things educated middle class Indians like me saw BJP as an alternative not because of their connection with extremist Hindu groups but because they had some really educated people who did not get into petty politics as Congress Party had done since Nehru’s times. But now things are different and as a senior expelled BJP leader said they are now like Kati- Patang or Alice in Blunderland.

    Also I would like to clarify that RSS is not essentially 100% extremist organisations I know many moderates all over India who were or are memebers of RSS but it is just that it also consists of a lot of poor and illiterate and ignorant people who just like many sections of the Muslim community in India only thrive on the Division between Hindus and Muslims and they want to keep this division intact for as long as possible.

    Just like there are parts in India in Delhi,Ahmedabad, Hyderabad, Bangalore and parts of UP where still people celebrate when Pakistan wins against India, there are places in India which are Hindu-Hotbeds and it was from such a place only where Varun Gandhi won but he can only go at the State Level because only in India we are so much obsessed with the word SECULARISM that he will never be able to win at the Centre as long he openly makes hate speeches against the Muslims.

    Just yesterday the Deobandh issued a fatwa against one of the National Songs called Vande Matram which was so beautifully sung by none other than a Muslim although a converted one A.R.Rahman. They are trying to unnecessirily whip up emotions even when the objectionable parts of this song which said that One should always worship the land of your Country which was supposedly against the tenets of Islam as Muslims can only worship the Almighty Allah (PBUH) had been removed as early as 1960’s when Nehru only appointed a commitee to extract the acceptable lines from Vande Matram.

    Even the great poet Allama Iqbal has said:-

    patthar ki muraton mein samjha hai tu Khuda hai
    khak-e-watan ka mujh ko har zarra dewata hai

    Which if i understand correctly means that worshipping your Country and worshipping God goes hand in hand. I would request Javed A.Khan to pour his thoughts on the correct interpretation of these lines taken from the Poem sach keh dun ai brahman gar tu bura na mane

  130. #130 by newguy30 on November 4, 2009 - 3:38 AM

    Omer,

    You talk about communal riots, have you lived through one to what it is like? most likely not, I know what it is because I have, and that is something someone who knows how it feels not want to happen again. I was 16 years old when communal riots broke between Hindus and Muslims in my small town back in India, it began as a small thing, like you said a spark, someone a member of the so called lower caster Hindu, he was an RSS sympathizer, naturally they got involved, it was allegedly by Muslim youths, so RSS folks attacked Muslim homes, no one lost their lives but there were plenty of bodily injuries on both sides and some homes had their compound walls destroyed.

    Then came the Police, they did not spare anyone, they hunted down RSS, most of them fled town and went to live with relatives in other places, Muslim youths left homes too, Police took whoever they could get hold of, you what happens to those people who are unlucky enough to end up in Police station without me telling I figure. I was in school away, but no one came to our house, all of my uncles and my family lived without any problem, our family was not involved in anything, and we had no problem with any Muslims or RSS people. Police warned people that if there is another problem in this town things will become really bad, they will raid every home and take everyone, people were scared enough, few weeks went by, slowly folks who went in hiding came back. Life went on moving normally, there was fear in everyone’s mind and there was distrust in general with each other, but no violent incidents happened. When I came to live there after finishing school, things were almost normal, I stayed far away from RSS, I did not make any enemies with them, it’s not very smart to do so, especially if you are living with these folks around you, instead best thing is to mind your business and not get involved, I had Muslim friends, I went to their homes frequently, their family treated me with great love and respect, and I had no reason ever to distrust any of them. Sure there were some bad elements within Muslim community, just like on any community, you just stay clear of these folks, I did until eventually I left. People went along their business, Hindus and Muslims conducted business with each other, they talked to each other, they still had distrust in their back of their minds, but not all Hindus were extremist RSS, only some, so Muslims had nothing to distrust others. They were not extremely friendly with each other though, me and some of my other Hindu friends were exceptions, RSS folks were not very fond of us, but we didn’t care and we were minding our business anyway, and we had the backing of our families, so we had nothing to fear anyone.

    My family still lives there, to date there has not been another incident in that town, people learned their lesson, no one wants to go through that again.

    So, yes, India is not perfect, I know, I lived there, I know what a communal riot means, it’s horrible, but it’s part of being India, unfortunately, but I think even after all that there is still a common bonding, Hindus and Muslims in India are destined to live with each other, they have been for thousands of years, and they will continue to do so, with all their differences and their lack of trust with each other, they will find a way.

    Bottomline is that Hindu religion is a very loosely defined religion, you can take it to the extreme, but large majority of Hindus are not crazy about their religion, they are non practicing in other words, and they want tolerance, they want to co-exist with Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, and others. They will not let extremists take power. BJP has some power by way of controlling seats in Parliment, but the BJP itself is not an extremists party, only factions within it, by and large they try to project themselves as center party, but Indians know they are not, and they don’ get to do any of the extreme agenda they have. Sure they are right wing Hindu nationalist, but you must also consider BJP has it’s power coming from a few concentrated states, there are places they can evoke Hindu extremist sentiments and get votes, but they cannot change the shape of the country, if they had their way they would have built Ram temple in the place Babri Masjid was destroyed, but this did not happen, and this will not happen.

    South India is unassailable to BJP, they will not win a single state and they will not get many parliamentary seats, if at all any from the Southern states. Without being able to each into the power corridors of South India, BJP cannot be called a nationalist party, they are concentrated in UP, Bihar, Gujarat, Rajasthan, Maharashtra, and Madhaya Pradesh. They do not have much hold in East either. So in the end BJP is concentrated in some of the North Indian states, India is much more than that fortunately.

  131. #131 by Varun Suri on November 4, 2009 - 4:15 AM

    Omer @ 211,

    The Indian establishment at the top knows that a Weak Pakistan is not in India’s favour after all it is also a very highly populated country and amongst the top 10 highly populated Countries. I do not understand how can you believe that Taliban (Pakistani) could ever be friendly with Indians when they openly say that they are only fighting Pakistanis because they are listening to America otherwise their real enemy is India and if you just assume if today there was a war between India-Pakistan then there is absolutely no doubt that all the different factions within Pakistan would unite to fight the Indians. Even yesterday there was a report that said that Pakistani Taliban is going to transport some Talibanis on the Eastern Front to get into India during this winter – this exercise which we Indians have named Infiltration has been going since many years and was at it’s peak when Benazir was the Top Leader. Every winter there are armed personnel not necessarily Kashmiris who try to cross the Indian Border something which Javed A. Khan had acknowledged last year to create more attacks with in India and even then if he believes that no Pakistani has created chaos on Indian Soil (forget about our latest man the Kasab) then I do not really know what to say?

    Why did the Pakistani government admit that Mr Kasab is a Pakistani? They could have gone on the usual denial route which had been taken all these years? Now don’t tell me that it was Uncle Sam again who pressurized them in doing so?

    I can understand about Balochistan or Waziristan because there is a huge presence of Indians in Afghanistan but Indians supporting Pakistani Taliban is a complete hogwash by the confused Pakistani Government. As far as Balochis are concerned they are like cornered tigers in Pakistan. Do you know that there are hardly any Balochs even in the Balochian Regiment of Pakistani Army and instead it comprises of mainly Punjabis. There has been a long history of a deficit of trust by the Pakistani Establishment as far as Balochs are concerned and the main reason why this Baloch problem has really flared up now is because Musharraf blindly took lot of American Dollars while killing of many Baloch Leaders like Bugti and now they are really incensed and hence the demand for a separate Country/Leadership hence this problem just like the Talibani Problaim is an internal problem of Pakistan.

  132. #132 by Varun Suri on November 5, 2009 - 7:30 AM

    Omer,

    1. India is much bigger both in size and population than Pakistan than from the same link you posted about the Embassies in Afghanistan. Can you explain Why Pakistan also has 5 Embassies/Consulates in the same cities where India has its consulates? India always had good relations with Afghanis and Pathans except a few dissidents:):) but Pakistan had never been so close to Afghanistan since it’s inception so Why does Pakistan need 5 consulates in Afghanistan?
    So this argument is totally baseless.

    2. You are totally mixing up things when you combine the small time incidents like Malegaon, Samjhauta with something as big as Mumbai attacks. Like many other incidents the Indian establishment blindly pointed fingers at Pakistan when Malegaon happened. But the main culprits behind that were caught and are already behind prison so this issue is dead and buried. That Colonel was not a part of any Big Organization like Taliban and there’s was a group effort of a very small bunch of people. The same thing is true for Samjhauta express.

    3. TimesofIndia is a gossip newspaper and although it might be the biggest selling newspaper in India but any person interested in Politics knows that to get genuine news India has only One Paper the Hindu which can compare with The Dawn of Pakistan. The fact that you are quoting information from Indian sources regarding Mushrif and Mishra does not perturb me at all because it’s people like them and Arundhati Roy which makes India a great democracy where anyone and everyone can come up with anything for whateever reasons. The kind of freedom of speech you have here is probably not anywhere in the World except for certain very liberal countries like in the Scandinavia or even Netherlands. It’s good that the Sceptics like all these people and yourself bring out such issues in the open and I would be glad if all the facts are laid bare on the table for all of us to know who exactly is behind it.

    4. If this is not enough already LeT members were planning to celebrate the 26/11 anniversary by attacking the National Defense College in Delhi amongst 4 other targets.

    5. The culprits behind the small time Malegaon blasts have already been Punished but why are members of LeT like Hafeez are roaming openly in Pakistan and further inciting people against India.

    6. Moreover the Pakistani government is not helping things by un-necessarily shifting the blame on India when just few months ago Mr. Rehman himself admitted that this Blame-Game will not lead us anywhere.

    7. Even though there was an extreme public reaction to the Mumbai Blasts, the Congress government other than threatening and applying verbal pressure did not do much and Extremists like Hafeez and Dawood are openly living in Pakistan.

    Is it not that Pakistan wants to use these people against India when the right time will come otherwise what could be the reason that they are protecting Dawood Ibrahim in Karachi when he is a listed International Terrorist in Interpol? If the Pakistani government really wants to sort out things with India then Why don’t they take any steps to punish such people who in the past have incited hatred against India or killed innocent people getting on with their lives.

    Now there is no need to bring in Srikant Purohit as a tit-for-tat because he is already being tried for a Crime committed on the Indian Soil or for that matter Varun Gandhi for his hate speeches because he might be a Muslim-Hater but he has not uttered a word against Pakistan yet.

    8. How can the Indians trust Pakistan when Pakistanis themselves do not trust their inefficient government? There might be extremists(both Hindu or Muslim) in India but at least there is a stable government at the Centre where there are certain very educated and responsible people like SM Krishna, Manmohan Singh and PC Chidambaran, Shashi Tharoor to name a few. Even though I am not a big Congress supporter but I am proud of such people and accept the fact that this is not only the best but the only alternative for the Indian people as the only other Party which can rival them is the BJP and they are on a downward spiral and unless they reform themselves and find an enigmatic leader like Vajpayee they are finished and the Gandhi-Raj will Rule India again for few decades once Rahul Gandhi is ready to be the PM.

  1. khilafah

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