KAHANI PAKISTAN CRICKET BOARD KI…..

Indian soap operas took the world by storm about 10 years ago and since then, they have shown no signs of stopping. Their demonstration of lavish sets,  catharsis based around blood relations, turbulent love stories and family politics has changed the face of Asian entertainment. Indians, Pakistanis and Bengalis sit glued to their TV sets everyday, keen on knowing the progress of a relationship between 2 lovers, or a dispute between the mother in law and her daughter in law, or the nefarious motives of the villainous element of a family.
One of the features of these dramas is that a lot of their titles start with a “K”, as the producers believe it brings good fortune to them, a thought influenced by some tenet of Hindu spirituality. So, we decided to start this thread title with a “K”, hoping that it will bring good fortune to Pakistan cricket.

Lights! Camera! Action!

Pakistan cricket is not any less than an Indian soap opera, and the latest drama created by Ijaz Butt, Younis Khan and the revolting players in the team proves this. Younis Khan, called “Drama Khan” recently by Javed A Khan, has disappointed many of his fans firstly by his slipshod batting in ODI’s recently. Secondly, Younis Khan, troubled by the not-so-secret rebellion in the team and the pressure of playing in a high profile tournament such as the Champions Trophy, offered his resignation on the pretext that he was upset by match fixing allegations and “other matters” (these thought to be the certain dissenting players in the team).

Sure, it is accepted Younis Khan is a man of honour. But match fixing allegations have been part and parcel of Pakistan cricket since time immemorial. Younis could have condemned these accusations in strongest possible terms in front of Jamshed Khan Dasti, but the fact that he resigned made his reaction appear as extreme as the accusations that were levelled against his men. Younis received the sympathy of the nation and was reinstated as captain, however critics were right in predicting that this episode would divert attention away from Younis’s failure as a batsman and captain in the Champions Trophy.

Ijaz Butt is the comedian of Pakistan cricket and it is a wonder he is still Chairman of the PCB after repeated failures. Ijaz

Ijaz Butt- the comedian of this Drama

Butt’s standard of incompetence can be discerned from his unwillingness to sack Malik as captain just before Younis was appointed as captain (it took a Presidential order to convince Butt to remove Malik as captain). Also, recently Butt gave a statement that the English media should focus more on county cricket performances of Pakistanis. Butt gave Kaneria’s example to say that Kaneria has been ripping through line ups, and PCB should get the credit for these performances. However, maybe Butt should realise that even mediocre players like Yasir Arafat have been performing commendably in county cricket and international cricket is very different. If the PCB Chairman is going to make stupid statements like that, what will the world think of Pakistan and PCB? How long do we have to tolerate this incompetent, uncouth and uneducated man as the Chairman? The Pakistan Senate has already predicated that it seems Butt never went to college because he is running the PCB like a grocery shop.

There are villains in this Drama, too. Malik, Misbah and Akmal are playing politics apparently. As always, no direct names have been mentioned; there are only rumours and controversies. Yet it seems fishy Younis has openly stated that certain players have reservations with this captaincy and that there is some kind of disunity. In dramas and movies you see the villains perishing sooner or later, yet in this Drama, Malik and Akmal are still there in the team, vitiating team morale and almost encouraging mediocrity. It is sad jealousy and bias based around regionalism still affects the team after Pakistan as a country and as a cricket team has lost so much because of it. But, that is how it works in Pakastan.

Speaking of regionalism, the reaction of the Karachi lobby to Younis Khan’s resignation was extreme and unprecedented. The Karachi lobby was instrumental in the sacking of Malik and appointment of Younis Khan as captain, and it is thought the lobby also wants Afridi as the next captain of the Pakistan team. The anti-Punjab stance of this lobby is worrying although it is submitted that its intentions are to weaken regional influence in team selection.

Afridi is also playing a little drama of his own. For some reason Afridi has decided to temporarily quit Test cricket at a time when he is batting more sensibly than ever and his bowling has significantly matured. What has caused Afridi to make this ridiculous decision? Test cricket is dying in Pakistan and Afridi could have been an asset for the team.

Pakistan is the laughing stock of world cricket and this Drama must now end. The Chairman needs to go, the elements playing politics need to be removed. Malik needs to be sacked anyway because playing him means accepting mediocrity. Malik has recently given an interview saying that he will be selected for Pakistan’s next Test assignment. This is shocking considering that he is one of the reasons why Pakistan is considered a mediocre Test team. Younis Khan is unstable and unpredictable and a person of his temperament must not be captain. Now he wants to play T20 cricket again although earlier this year he was adamant T20 is not for him. Younis should set an example and retire from ODI cricket. Pakistan is pinning hopes on Shahid Afridi to lead the team and weed out mediocre players.

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  1. #1 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 1:23 AM

    Pakistani cricket ki kahani khansahab ki zubani

    The points in this thread covers the plot well but, the story or the script is like that of a Hindi movie where you can predict the next scene, next dialogue, next song and the ending too. However, the soap opera continues like Dallas, Bold and Beautiful, Melrose Place etc., and all the characters look like they have a plastic face, no wrinkles, no expressions all cold blooded chipkalees.

    Talking of plastic faces, did anyone notice Shane Watson has a face like that, no wrinkles, no crowfeet, no teeth….. he looks like one of the characters of Bold and Beautiful……… excuse me for the diversion and comparison. But, this is what we all do, don’t we? Comparing Raina with TENdulkar, Sohail Tanvir with Wasim Akram etc. etc.

    In the previous thread in one of my last comments I raised the point of Salman Butt’s inclusion in the team and while I was writing that comment, it revealed to me why Shoaib Malik disagrees with his captain to open the innings? This is the reason, so that he creates a vacant spot for the Nikki Butt to fill in.

    khansahab Malik should not be sacked only on the basis of mediocrity but also in breeding conspiracy and revolt. Didn’t I tell you many years ago that he is a real MEESNA? And, you asked me the meaning of meesna and I had to explain it to you. Now you know how meesna pun is demonstrated.

  2. #2 by Mohammed Munir on November 3, 2009 - 4:54 AM

    PCB’s selection of their T20, ODI and Tests squads is beyond anybody’s logical thinking. May be what wanted to keep the ‘surprise element’ and therefore came up with a dubious and the most bizarre team selection.

    Seeing Rana Naveed back in our ODI as well as T20 teams is totally unacceptable and unforgivable, this guys single handedly loose us another important match soon, but PCB will never learn their lessons. Salman Butt back in our ODI team is also stupid as at most he ‘may’ have been allowed to play only Tests because of his slow batting style. About Imran Farhat and his selection through his father-in-law, all I can say is that “Allah Aisa Sussar Sab Ko Attaa Farmaaye … Aameen”.

    All said and done, we the loyal and diehard Pakistani cricket fans, will always pray for our team’s win no matter what.

    Good luck Greens !!

  3. #3 by Awas on November 3, 2009 - 1:27 PM

    Good to see Khalid Latif got dug in albeit at a very slow strike rate but that was necessary at precarious situation when the score was 2-0.

    It seemed like a good eleven bar Salman Butt who failed miserably again. Enough chances have been given to Butt and Farahat. Butt may have a case for further chance to be given in tests but definitely not ODI’s. Do we have anyone like Gambhir and Sehwag to open for us in ODI’s? Perhaps khansahab can shed some light on this?

    Good to see mediocre Malik not getting picked. He may be ruing the decision not to open. As I said before when he was dropped against SL series, Malik is not indispensable. Barring injuries to other bowlers, I hope Rana Naveed is there just for a joy ride.

    Typical of Yousuf to get run out again.

  4. #4 by Varun Suri on November 3, 2009 - 2:39 PM

    Good Clean Hitting by Afridi, Kamran and Razzaq. Now the Pak Pace battery should blast the Kiwis and win the first ODI.

    Salman Butt should only be played in Tests and Pakistan should look to bring in younger blood for the opening slot.

  5. #5 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 3:04 PM

    Mediocre Malik is not in the team that is good but, why BUTT? See what he did to the team? Once again he demoralized the team by opening and getting out on a DUCK, and the one to follow him was Drama Khan. Had it not been for Afridi and Akmal they were all out under 150. Anyways, the total can be defended and batting second in lights in Abu Dhabi is not easy. So, they should win this game.

    As regards Tendulkar given out LBW by the Indian umpire, this hue and cry is being made after seeing the Hawk-Eye. But, if you see the replay even in slow motion it does not change the fact that the umpire was right. Because, I have also replayed that shot a few times and it appears that he was out. But, Hawk Eye is Hawk Eye it is not 100% correct, its just a guideline or it predicts a trajectory where the ball could possibly have gone.

    So, there is no need to cry about it that it was a BAD decision. No, it wasn’t a bad decision, we have seen worst umpiring decisions against so many other players in the past. The fact remains that he was playing slow to achieve his 17000 personal milestone which they were showing on the giant screen TV on the ground after he scored every single run, now Sachin needs 20 runs, 17 runs, 13 runs, 10 runs…..
    And we all know that he gets stuck on 99……so the fact remains he played a slow innings.

  6. #6 by newguy30 on November 3, 2009 - 3:39 PM

    Javed,

    When Tendulkar got out there was no need to play any faster than they were playing, in fact run rate was never a problem for India at any point in the game, when the last wicket fell India needed 25 off 24 balls to win, if they were only 6 down at that time it’s a cakewalk. So I don’t understand why you keep critisizing Tendulkar for slow rate, he was doing fine. Tendulkar is not an Afridi to go boom boom every ball, or a Sehwag, he tries to focus on building an innings and play percentage cricket to win matches these days, and there is no one better than him who knows how to build an ODI innings, except may be Dhoni in the current Indian lineup.

    You keep mentioning he was focused on 17,000 runs, why should that matter? tell me, c’mon we are not talking him overhauling someone else’s record or something, 17,000 runs is an enormous amount of runs and there is no even closer to him that it does not matter. It does not matter to anyone including Tendulkar, just another number he has happened to cross. So what if it is shownn on the board.

    Coming to today’s game, I thought Pakistan would fold under 150, but what a turnaround, clean hitting by Afridi, I don’t think he has played such an ODI innings of late, this should give him confidence, or Afridi being Afridi this is just another of those rare innings that comes between his various 20s, 30s. Anyhow, amazing turnaround, good hitting by Kamran too. NZ will not be able to chase this score, so 1 up for Pakistan.

    They should however look at top order, and bring one of the younger players up the order, Sulman Butt is wasting space at the top.

  7. #7 by Varun Suri on November 3, 2009 - 3:41 PM

    Javed Sir it’s not because of Hawk Eye but it was quite evident that the ball was pitching outside the stumps and on any other day the umpire could have very easily given that decision in the batsmen’s favour

    Sighscreen showing how many runs he needs to achieve 170000 milestone does not reflect anything about Tendulkar’s mindset infact they would have done the same if there was anyother person nearing such a record and specially if an Indian is nearing such a milestone in India then i see no problems in the authorities doing so after all how many players before him have reached that milestone?

  8. #8 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 4:04 PM

    Butt dropped Brendon McCullum in slips, what a waste of a player he is and these idiots keep bringing him back into the team. I would kick his Butt out and not select him in any team, not even in test matches. The dropped catch irked Umar Gul who is not a good ODI bowler these days and he is been bowling wayward after that and getting whacked all over, this happens with Pathan bowlers that they loose their cool and their focus…… Oh, finally he got McCullum…….. bowled him.

    Varun, yaar I have a PVR and I have seen Tendulkar’s wicket a few times, the ball did not pitch outside the off stump, please ! It pitched between off and middle and hit him low below the knee roll and just by seeing the replay anyone could say he is OUT.

    Robin Jackman was the commentator then and when the replay was shown he said, “I can say the ball was dead straight…..” and suddenly they showed Hawk-Eye which shows the ball pitching on off and middle but going down the leg side by a few inches and he immediately said,….”Oh, I can’t be sure…. Then the next commentator Bruce Yardley came and he tried to explain the same thing that from the umpire’s vision and even the replays confirm that he is out but the Hawk-Eye has other views…. never mind yaar, OUT is OUT khattam.

    newguy, here I disagree with you because the tempo and the momentum that Sehwag created was lost because of Tendulkar’s batting, its not that I am seeing everything bad about Tendulkar. NO, this is just the fact that he slowed down the tempo and thats what happens then, the wickets start to fall because you have then allowed the bowlers to dominate.

    When Sehwag was playing he was batting he dominated and ruined Johnson’s confidence. If Tendulkar had improved his run rate others would have chipped in too i.e., in the same manner but, because of his slow batting Kohli tried to accelerate and got out and then Tendulkar himself got out then the other bowlers (barring Johnson) regained their confidence especially Bollinger bowled very well. And Australia are a mentally very strong team especially Ricky Ponting, he never lost his composure, batted well, fielded well and he led his side very well.

    Vow, Umar Gul got his second wicket now Guptil bowled by Umar Gul…. my word LOL…

  9. #9 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 4:11 PM

    New Zealand is caving in now, Taylor gone too and the Pakistanis must not get complacent with these 3 wickets because there is plenty of batting left and Vettori is not just a good bowler but he is a very good batsman and a good captain. Aamir’s spell is very economical, so far in his 6 overs he gave only 11 runs and got this very important wicket of Taylor.

  10. #10 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 5:47 PM

    I think in the 2nd ODI Fawad Alam and Khalid Latif should open the innings and Rana should be sent back home. Vettori is the key and if he stays with Jacob Oram they can both do some damage, but Oram is not in form and it would be too much expecting from him even if he does, the target is still too stiff for them, one of them goes and that is the end of NZ innings.

    Even if Pakistan wins this series 3-0 and Drama Khan continues to bat like this, his ODI captaincy would be under scrutiny once again. Although Wadee Butt has guaranteed his captaincy till the WC of 2011 but, there could be pressure from the media, fans, supporters and haters. Besides, whatever Ijaz Butt says, the opposite happens.

  11. #11 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 5:48 PM

    GONE……… that’s it, SHAHID AFRIDI got 2 wickets in 2 balls and that is the end of NZ and Afridi is Man of the Match now…….. will he take a hatrick in the second over?

  12. #12 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 5:51 PM

    “Shahid Afridi to NL McCullum, OUT, Afridi .. whaddaplayaaa .. he did it with the bat and now doing the job with the ball. The slider this time, on the middle, looks to defend and is hit on the pad. The Hawk eye shows it missing leg and it might well be but when it struck him on the pad, it looked pretty ugly. you can understand why the ump gave that out.”

    The same happened to Tendulkar yesterday, the reaction of the commentator was instant and it changed after the Hawk-Eye replay. That is the problem with Hawk-Eye that it is not 100% accurate.

  13. #13 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 3, 2009 - 5:55 PM

    Abdul Razzaq not only batted well, but he bowled a million times better than Rana and I don’t understand why can’t these selectors see this difference? He now took Jacob Oram’s wicket and it seems that NZ will fold under 150 and within 40 overs. Good chance for Afridi to take a hat-rick now with Butler and Bond at the stumps.

  14. #14 by Awas on November 3, 2009 - 6:02 PM

    Javed

    Two wickets in a row are often a common feature but Hat-tricks are not that easy to come by.

    Good performance by Pakistan. A score of 287 was good especially after 2-0.

  15. #15 by Awas on November 3, 2009 - 6:07 PM

    I thought Khalid Latif’s was the anchor innings and much needed at the time. Then someone like Afridi Razzaq etc had to play the type of innings that they can in order to get to a good score.

    Afridi should be MOM and deserves it.

  16. #16 by newguy30 on November 3, 2009 - 10:33 PM

    Javed,

    Your argument that Tendulakar slowed down things are not based on facts, here are the facts for you:

    1. Sehwag got out in the 7th over, score was 40/1. India needed another 211 runs from 43 overs at 4.90 runs per over. There is no need to take any risk, with 9 wickets all they needed were partnerships.

    2. Tendular accelerated scoring after Sehwag left, contrary to what you are suggesting. When Sehwag got out Tendulkar had 8 off 22 balls, by the time Kohli got out Tendulkar added 26 runs from 34 balls, and he hit 5 fours in that. So your argument is wrong.

    3. Kohli had no reason to be under pressure, because Tenduklar was doing the job and even Kohli was going well, scoring 10 off 13 balls.

    3. Tendulkar and Kohli added 38 runs in 7 overs, Tendulkar and Sehwag added 40 in 7 overs. So partnetship with Sehwag added 2 runs more and a few balls less. No big deal.

    4. When Kohli got out India needed 173 runs from 36 over at 4.80 runs per over, so run rate did not go up.

    The reason Kohli got out is same reason he always gets out, trying to play too many shots. These youngsters need to know how to pace an innings instead of trying to play cute shots. In fact it was Kohli coming at #3 that derailed India’s chase.

    Tendulkar was playing the game to perfection, with Sehwag batting he has no reason to take any risk, so he lets Sehwag has the strike and team scoring going along at a good rate, when Sehwag got out Tendulkar eased the pressure on the team and youngster at other end by hitting a four in each over.

    At less than 5 runs an over there was nothing he needed to do, again like I said he scored 26 runs from 31 balls between Sehwag getting out and Kohli getting out, so your argument is wrong.

  17. #17 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 4, 2009 - 1:21 AM

    newguy

    Omer has already replied to you and gave you some other points like when Sehwag was out, 9 more wickets were remaining and Tendulkar should not have any fear in accelerating the score.

    To correct you, Sehwag was out when the score was 40 and the number of overs were 6.5 and Tendulkar’s contribution was only 8 runs. When Kohli was out the score was 78 it was 14.3 overs and 38 runs were added in 7.4 overs and Tendulkar’s own contribution in that partnership was 24 runs as there were 4 extras, one of them was a front foot no-ball from Bollinger which Tendulkar ruined it.

    The fact is when Sehwag was out Tendulkar had scored 8 runs in 22 balls, a strike rate of 36.3
    When Tendulkar was out he had scored 40 in 68 balls @ a strike rate of 58.8

    Do you call it a very good strike rate or a great innings by a great player?

    Yaar, Na Sehwag mera dost hai na Tendulkar mera dushman, I only state the facts from an outsider’s perspective, because you guys love him, adore him and blindly worship him. Accept the fact that he is getting old like everyone else and his hand eye coordination is not the same, his running between the wickets is not the same and Omer and I have been saying this throughout that, Sehwag is a more entertaining player than Tendulkar is and he is more consistent than Afridi. And, I don’t understand why you guys can’t accept this fact?

  18. #18 by Shoaib on November 4, 2009 - 3:42 AM

    Yaar, how do you get time to watch all the matches! and they are not just being watched but you guys also analyse it in so depth, lol

    No one shed light or said anything on Roccoon’s incident reported by myself here. 😀

  19. #19 by Varun Suri on November 4, 2009 - 3:45 AM

    Arre Bhai Why can’t you let the Little Master play peacfully. Why are you after his neck after each and every match. After all those records do you think he is worried about 17000 runs which is merely a number.

    Who is denying that he has not become slow and is not the same Tendulkar we know of 90’s and that is the same reason why it is wrong on Javed’s part to assume that he should have accelrated when Sehwag departed if you have followed his game in the recent years he plays less aggresively and is somewhat like Gambhir when he plays with Sehwag i.e slowly build up his innings. A strike rate of 58.8 in such a chase is perfectly acceptable Why do you want him to hit like Afridi or Sehwag he never was such a player.

    I do not blindly worship him infact i was a very vocal critic of him few years ago when he was going through a bad patch and should have been rested for a while but because of his records and the Omnipresent Mumbhai Lobby that never happened and Dravid, Ganguly and Laxman were periodically rested when their forms dipped. But now in the last 1-2 years he is still in the top 10 ICC Batsmen and i see no reason for him to retire right now.

  20. #20 by Mohammed Munir on November 4, 2009 - 5:07 AM

    Gaad … enough of that thing call Tendulkar 😦

    I have been sick and tired of these zillions of comments on His Highness’s batting, 17,000 runs, comparing him with so-and-so, playing slow, playing fat, ODIs, Tests, and what not.

    Javed Khan … What was that Urdu saying, which goes something like … “Hijaroun Key Beta Huwa Aur Choom Choom Key Uss Ko Maar Dalaa”.

  21. #21 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 4, 2009 - 2:29 PM

    Munir

    Tumhara kya Tendulkar ko Choom nay ka iraada hai? 😀

  22. #22 by Varun Suri on November 4, 2009 - 2:33 PM

    Yeh Shoaib kahin Shoaib Akhtar to nahi hai?

  23. #23 by khansahab on November 4, 2009 - 7:09 PM

    Not been able to comment because of work.

    Afridi the Great stole the match once again. This guy just needs to improve his consistency- he needs to be made captain and I am sure his performance will improve.

    How strange that Younis staged a drama, got the team management sacked, and was given more powers in team selection and now we see Malik being dropped to accommodate Khalid Latif? Is this due to the Karachi lobby, or what is happening? Was the Punjabi team management playing politics?

    Awas

    There is no Gambhir or Sehwag in Pakistan. If there was the Pakistan team would have been no 1 today.

  24. #24 by khansahab on November 4, 2009 - 9:28 PM

    Omer

    Pakistan needs a consistent player, not a 30 something confidence-shattering player who shatters confidence but makes a good score once in 5 matches.

    You know what such players are called don’t you- the Hafeezs, the Maliks and the Sehwags 🙂

    I might have made a passing remark about Latif once or twice, but again I was never “always supporting him”. This is again a figment of your imagination, such as your earlier rather absurd accusation that I “consistently” supported Hafeez and Malik.

  25. #25 by Awas on November 4, 2009 - 9:31 PM

    PCB unhappy with Younus’ wish

    PCB and some former Test players are not happy that Younus Khan is willing to play Twenty20 cricket for the national team.

    Younus had announced his retirement from T20 cricket after Pakistan won the Twenty20 World Cup in England in July this year insisting he was too old for the shortest format of the sport.

    But in recent days he has shown interest in coming out of retirement to play T20 cricket once again despite the board appointing Shahid Afridi as the captain of the national T20 side until the World Cup in West Indies next year.

    “What is Younus trying to do create more discord in the team, what is the necessity of such statements so soon after a major crisis has been averted in Pakistan cricket,” a board official told PTI.

    He pointed out that it was a fact that some players still had reservations over Younus’s attitude as captain and for him to keep on saying he wanted to play T20 cricket again was tantamount to creating problems in the team.

    “It is no secret that Shahid Afridi, Misbah-ul-Haq, Shoaib Malik and couple of other players had complained about Younus to the PCB Chairman after Champions Trophy but the Chairman pacified them and instead rejected Younus’s resignation and asked him to continue as captain till the 2011 World Cup,” an official said.

    Younus said that he was ready to make a comeback to T20 cricket if the nation, selectors and players wanted this to happen.

    “I am ready to do anything for my country for my people after the way they supported me in the recent captaincy crisis. I can continue to play even if I am 60 if my nation wants me to play,” he said.

    The frequent statements from Younus has prompted the PCB to come out with a statement that even if Younus wants to play T20 cricket again he can’t be considered for the forthcoming T20 matches against New Zealand in Dubai as the selectors have already announced the team for these two matches.

    Younus has said his retirement decision was not a word on stone and it could be changed if conditions were right.

    A former Test captain, however, advised Younus to concentrate on his batting against New Zealand.

    “It is better for him if he just focuses on his own performances which are important for his tenure as captain,” the player said.

    A national selector pointed out that it was imperative for the captain to also get runs to retain his place in the side and have the respect of the players he commands.

    Younus who managed just 53 runs in the Champions Trophy due to a finger injury was out for a duck in the first one-day match against New Zealand in Abu Dhabi on Tuesday.

  26. #26 by newguy30 on November 4, 2009 - 10:00 PM

    Omer/Khansaheb,

    To become number one and stay there you need much more than talented batsmen and bowlers, you need mental toughness and a deep desire to win, you need players competing with each other for the spot, you need to have these qualities ingrained from childhood. Only one team in world cricket has it, Australians, they had it in them all along, this is why they were number one for so long and still fights hard to get back there. Australians don’t fight hard just to get to some #1 spot in point table so they can feel good about having reached there, for them getting #1 is all about doing their best every time they take field. They have the culture in every sport they play, they compete hard, even as kids when they play in their backyards they compete hard.

    Australians even made it to the Soccor world cup last time, and I think they were one of the non-traditional (not european or south american) teams that were very successful, they reached semi-final I think. This is a huge thing and a testament to their mentality and work ethics in sports. They also did not do shabby in Olympics, both winter and summer games, and they do quite well in field Hocky, a game that Indians and Pakistanis are supposed to rule, as well as Rugby, Baseball.

    So, overall Aussies are hard code when it comes to sports, India and Pakistan has nothing but cricket.

  27. #27 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 4, 2009 - 10:35 PM

    “I am ready to do anything for my country for my people after the way they supported me in the recent captaincy crisis. I can continue to play even if I am 60 if my nation wants me to play,” Younus Khan.

    The above is a quote from the comment made by Awas. In response to this, all I can say is:

    Ch2So4 ha sala! SIXTY ka ho ker bhee khailay ga? Ghaas kha gaya BC. Every day he comes up with a new statement, kya BHUNG tou nai peeta? I think he should simply be sacked from ODI as well, he is OK for test cricket but, he must make room for others. Besides, his captaincy is pretty mediocre, in fact its more negative than mediocre. Before someone stuff an old and smelly pair of socks in Younus Khan’s mouth, he should say, I am done with ODI and I want to play only test cricket. Izzat issi may hai uski.

    As regards Khansahab’s sweeping comment that if players like Sehwag and Gambhir were in Pakistan team they would have been number 1. This is really absurd. As if there aren’t any better batsmen than these two in Pakistan. Why is India not number one? Yeah, Yeah, they were number one for 27 hours and not more. Besides, consistency is the key they must maintain this number one status for more than 2-3 years and not even just one year because, there are so many teams like Pakistan and others who don’t get chance to play even 50% of the number of matches which India and Australia plays.

  28. #28 by khansahab on November 4, 2009 - 11:08 PM

    Javed A Khan

    India is not no 1 because they still don’t have bowlers like Asif, Aamer, Gul and they don’t have all rounders like Afridi who on their day can win a match single handedly.

    If India had bowlers who could hit late 80s consistently, they would be no 1. That is what I try and tell Omer and yourself- you can’t be a top team if the batsmen don’t support the bowlers and vice versa. It’s a team game.

    That is why Tendulkar did not “win” as many matches for India as he could if the Indian bowling in the late 90s was more able. That is the advantage Inzamam had – with semi-performers like Sami and Kaneria at their peak, if not with players like Shoaib Akhtar, Asif, Gul etc ripping batting line ups apart. In fact Inzamam’s golden era from 2004-2006 was when Kaneria was picking up a 5 wicket haul in every other match.

  29. #29 by Mohammed Munir on November 5, 2009 - 4:18 AM

    I agree with Khansahab’s comment, regarding Pakistan becoming no. 1, if they had Sehwag & Gambhir in their line-up.

    If we had Gambhir or Sehwag, along with our existing strengths in bowling line-up as well as all-rounders, then Pakistan would have definitely become a formidable side and probably be at no. 1.

    All these years, our key dilemma has been in our opening department and whatever matches we are winning are by and large due to our bowlers/ all-rounders, because we really could not get any good dependable openers since the time of Saeed Anwer and Aamir Sohail.

    As a general rule, Pakistan have been producing more bowling starts, specially fast-bowling, while India have been always better with the batsmen and this is going on for decades now. So technically if any one team has the strengths in both departments along with good all-rounders, it is bounded to be at no. 1.

  30. #30 by Shoaib on November 5, 2009 - 9:53 AM

    Javed Sahab:

    your favourite quote ‘CH2SO4’ reminds me of my chemistry class 10 years back 😀 just chek this out:

    NaI reacts with c.H2SO4 also, forming a HI along the way. On reaction of HI with more c.H2SO4, SS and H2S are also formed, demonstrating by virtue of the fact S ends up in compounds with a lower more reduced oxidation state than happened for NaCl or NaBr, that HI is an even stronger reducing agent than HCl or HBr.
    You are not expected to be able to recall (i.e. reproduce from memory) the reaction equations for the HI with c.H2SO4 😀

    Varun:

    naa brav i am not Shoaib Akhtar, neither i have genital warts nor i ever went to india, so never got a chance to get a cheap hooker 🙂

  31. #31 by Varun Suri on November 5, 2009 - 2:10 PM

    Shoaib,

    Atleast he could get a cheap hooker for himself…Pakistan mai to mujra dekhne ke alawa kuch aur nahi kar sakte na!!! tabhi sab US/Europe/UK ja ke gandgi machate hai…tumhari tarah.

  32. #32 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 5, 2009 - 2:39 PM

    khansahab & Munir

    Pakistan, when they had Aamir Churail and Saeed Anwar, even then they were not number 1
    Pakistan, when they had Wasim and Waqar + Actor, even then they were not number 1
    Pakistan had players like, Miandad, Zaheer Abbass, Inzamam and, captain like Imran Khan and even then they were not number 1. So, get out of this dream land and come into the real world, where there are no if’s but too many BUTTS.

    Another point is, you cannot take players from different countries and expect them to play well. It NEVER WORKS, you have seen World XI, Asia XI, Rest of the World etc. Even the IPL is a flop in terms of choosing the best players example Deccan Chargers in first IPL they had so many great big hitters. So, this Sehwag and Gambhir myth is just a fishful sinking.

  33. #33 by newguy30 on November 5, 2009 - 3:15 PM

    Javed,

    What say you about Tendulkar now, he is on 99 off 79 balls with 10 fours and 3 sixes, the great Shewag got out on 38 from 30 balls, it seems he is stuck on 40, all he wants to do is hit a few fours and sixes then go back and relax. All the Youvis, Gambhirs, and Dhiniyas are gone too for single digit, there is only Tendulkar left. This innings today, regardless of result, shows the class of the man.

    India will lose, but that is another story, Aussies once you give them a small opening they will crack that wide open. India had their chance in last game to gain momemtum and have the series firmly in their grasp, they spoiled it, now there is no looking back for Aussies. Once you give them a chance yhey just grab it kill the opposition. This is the reason they were #1 for so long, they just raise their game at the right time.

    But Tendulkar today is a classic.

  34. #34 by Varun Suri on November 5, 2009 - 3:16 PM

    Anyone doubting Tendulkar’s committment to his Game just had to see the way he took the catch of the last ball of Aussie innings when there was no need for him to dive and risk an injury.

    Anyways…hope you guys enjoyed his 45th hundred:))

  35. #35 by newguy30 on November 5, 2009 - 3:35 PM

    Tendulkar is on song, but it’s too much for Raina and Tendulkar to pull off, they are taking risks and they will eventually make a mistake then it’s all over, since no one else to follow. Jadeja is a useless as a bat, Bhajji and Praveen can hit or miss. Dhoni or Youvraj should have stayed today with Tendulkar then India could have pulled off. Aussie bowling is weak and pitch is as flat as it can get.

    But, what an innings from Tendulkar.

  36. #36 by newguy30 on November 5, 2009 - 3:56 PM

    Omer,

    I am. But they need to first get it under 100 without losing wickets, then focus on getting under 60-70 runs without losing wickets, at that point then it’s a few good hits to get closer, once they get to 30-40 runs with even tail enders anything is possible. But still too much, Tendulkar has to stay all the way to end, but they could be out anytime since they have to take risks.

  37. #37 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 5, 2009 - 5:20 PM

    This is how I wanted Tendulkar to play in the last 2 matches, it does make a difference if he scores at a faster strike rate. Yes, he did play a very good innings today but, there were moments of nervousness in achieving his personal milestones.

    1. He got stuck before scoring 7 runs to achieve the milestone of 17000
    2. He got stuck when in 90’s he was negotiating in singles only.
    3. When he reached 170 plus the commentators were saying he could score 200. The message came from the glove boys that he could beat Saeed Anwar’s 194 and his feet were jammed in the ground.

    Other than that he scored freely and timed them well. It may be his best innings but considering the fact that despite all that effort INDIA LOST and it is never a good feeling when your team lose the game.

    How many times Sachin Tendulkar has won the player of the match award while being on the losing side?

    I remember quite a few innings of his like these where he got MoM award when the winning side players also deserve for that award but, it doesn’t happen with other players when they score big and their team lose that match and, Tendulkar gets it because of his reputation.

  38. #38 by Varun Suri on November 5, 2009 - 5:26 PM

    Javed.A.Khan …Incorrigible is the Word for you..that’s all i have to say!

  39. #39 by Awas on November 5, 2009 - 6:50 PM

    What a cracker this match was!

    Tendulkar deserved MOM by playing a wonderful innings and bringing his team close to just three runs for victory.

  40. #40 by Awas on November 5, 2009 - 6:52 PM

    Younus Khan gets his way

    The PCB has taken off vice-captain Shahid Afridi and team manager Abdul Raquib from the tour selection committee.

    Bowing to skipper Younus Khan’s demand, the Pakistan Cricket Board has taken off Afridi and Raquib from the tour selection committee in the ongoing one-day series against New Zealand in Abu Dhabi and Dubai.

    Raquib said under the new policy only the captain, coach and the chief selector were selecting the playing eleven for every match.

    “In the past the team manager and vice-captain also used to be involved in this process,” he revealed.

    PCB sources said one of the conditions that Younus had put forth for taking back his resignation as captain after the Champions Trophy was that the team manager and vice captain be removed from the tour selection committee.

    “Younus had made it clear to the PCB Chairman that only the captain and coach should have this responsibility after consultations with the chief selector either in person or on telephone when on tour,” the source said.

    “In the past Younus and coach Intikhab faced problems getting their playing eleven because of the interference of the manager, vice-captain and even some senior players but now they have a free hand to pick their playing eleven,” he added.

  41. #41 by khansahab on November 5, 2009 - 8:06 PM

    For players like Inzamam and Sehwag we made a phrase, “Form is temporary but class is permanent”.

    For Tendulkar, we must make this phrase, “Form is permanent and class is also permanent”.

    I am sorry Omer and Javed A Khan, but neither Lara, Inzamam, Sehwag or any other player is capable of 175 runs in 141 balls, that also against Australia and that also whilst chasing. The best batsman since Bradman, the greatest of all great players.

    He is 36, has been playing international cricket for 20 years, and is still batting like he is the best batsman. Lara and Inzamam lost their touch after they reached their mid 30s. This is Tendulkar’s genius and that is why he is still playing for India.

  42. #42 by khansahab on November 5, 2009 - 8:09 PM

    Omer

    Thank you for your generous “best ODI batsman” compliment. But if Sehwag had made a 100 today, you would not have used that phrase, “flat pitch”.

    Today’s match has proved what I have been saying all this while, that Tendulkar is unfairly criticised because of India’s bad bowling. 350 against Australia is not chaseable, but Tendulkar almost made it happen on his own.

  43. #43 by newguy30 on November 5, 2009 - 9:08 PM

    Whatdda Match, and Whaddaplaya, Tendulkar there is one and only. Khansaheb thanks for saying this (your post#54), I have nothing to say to Javed if after this innings he keeps saying Tendulkar is there because of past glories, he doesn’t deserve MoM etc.

    He almost made the impossible possible with no support from the top, Raina’s contribution was significant however at the lower middle.

    Tendulkar is flawed genius however, this is why when 19 needed off 18 balls he went for that shot and undid all that he did, same like Chennai ’99 all over again. Heartbreaking 😦 Tendulkar deserved to be on the winning side, but yet again none of the other idiots could do the very least, all they needed was to run the singles and doubles, that idiot Jadeja what was he doing.

    Let’s not speak of anything about Gambhir, Youvi, and Dhoniya, shame on those guys not supporting Tendulkar today.

    Chasing 350 in an ODI it almost impossible, not only against Australia, but any team in the world, the pressure is too much even if you get closer and closer. So let’s not even argue about pitch quality and bowling quality. This Aussie attack is not very good, sure, but if they are as good as Indian bowling then 350 is defendable, India would have defended this and would not have let them come this close, because there is only one Tendulkar and he plays for India.

  44. #44 by khansahab on November 5, 2009 - 9:19 PM

    Omer

    Sehwag made his 2nd highest score of the series on the same pitch (the 1st, a score of 40, so not a lot of difference) and according to you, he is the Guru when it comes to playing on bowling pitches. You just use this “pitch” argument to your liking to support your preferred players and undermine your not-so-preferred players.
    What you fail to see is that Tendulkar is one of the best players of the moving ball and one of the best players of difficult pitches.

    Laxman is a mediocre player compared to Tendulkar- apart from 2 or 3 series, Laxman has not even been amongst India’s top 3 batsmen- Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly always stole the spotlight and now you have Sehwag, Gambhir and Dhoni. Again, praising Laxman like you are doing is like rewarding a player’s inconsistency- occasional brilliance, otherwise normally mediocre. I don’t know why you waste your time comparing Laxman with Tendulkar.

    I think our disagreement is about how we perceive “good batsmanship” to be. I perceive it to be technical correctness, ability to play the moving ball, ability to score well against top sides, creating impossible strokes off good balls and so forth. You clearly don’t care about such attributes- you just talk about how many matches a player has won. Tendulkar might not be a great “team player” (although again, if India had good bowlers he would be considered a better player) but as a batsman he is second to none. Razzaq and Akmal have won Pakistan matches because of their batting, but they are hardly “great” batsmen.

    These Australian bowlers are not as great as they used to be, but Australia is still the no 1 ODI team and the bowlers have played their part. You don’t get to be the no 1 ranking team with average bowlers. And the same goes for India- now Indian bowling is much better than it used to be. My ridiculous arguments? Srinath and Prasad, with no pace (Srinath was only quick as a very young man), barely any ability to swing the ball, no reverse swing, no exceptional stamina etc. And don’t you remember what replacements bowlers they had? Guys like Kuruvilla, and God knows what pathetic bowlers India had. Rana, Rao, Sami, our mediocre bunch are much better than their mediocre bunch. Actually the Pakistani pace bowling standard has never been as pathetic as Indian pace bowling was in the days of Srinath and Prasad. I am shocked you are saying this Omer.

    Actually, Pakistan even with Aamer, Asif, Gul and Rao is a better pace unit than many in the world. The problem with Pakistan is the batting, bowling is fine.

    Tendulkar was India’s only superstar in the 1990s- Azharuddin, Sidhu, Kumble, Srinath- these guys barely made it into the top 10 players in the world.

  45. #45 by khansahab on November 5, 2009 - 9:24 PM

    Newguy

    You don’t have to “thank” me for saying anything- except that I am probably the only one in this discussion who is speaking without any bias. If it comes to criticising Tendulkar, I will do that too.

  46. #46 by khansahab on November 5, 2009 - 9:51 PM

    Here in an analysis of Inzamam’s Test centuries since August 2001. See how much Kaneria and other Pakistan bowlers have supported Inzamam:

    August 2001- Inzi makes 105, Pakistan wins vs Bangladesh. Kaneria picks up 12 wickets in the match- Bangladesh’s score is 134 in the 1st innings and 148 in the 2nd.

    May 2002- Inzi makes 329 vs New Zealand- Pakistani bowlers get NZ all out for 73 and then, 246 on a Lahore pitch where Pakistan made 643. Kaneria takes 5 wickets in NZ’s 2nd innings (where they made 246).

    November 2002- Inzi makes 112 vs Zimbabwe in Zimbabwe. Here, Kaneria was not playing and the Pakistani bowlers did not do as well, although Pakistan won.

    September 2003- Inzi makes 138 vs Bangladesh at Multan. Pakistani bowlers get Bangladesh out for 281 and then 154. Kaneria is not playing.

    April 2004- Inzi makes 118 vs India at Lahore. Pakistani bowlers get India out for 287 and then 241- Pakistan’s 1st innings score is 489. Kaneria picks 5 wickets in this match, but in India’s 2nd innings he picks 3 wickets in 7 overs.

    November 2004- Inzi makes 117 at Karachi vs Sri Lanka. Pakistani bowlers get SL out of 208 and then, 406. Kaneria takes 7 wickets in SL’s 2nd innings and 10 wickets allover in the match.

    March 2005- Inzi makes 184 vs India at Banglalore. Pakistan make 570, then Kaneria takes 5 wickets, and in the 4th innings Pakistan get India all out for 214.

    June 2005-Inzi makes 117 vs West Indies in Jamaica. Pakistan get Wesi Indies out for 143 in the 4th innings again courtesy Kaneria, who picks up 5 wickets in that 4th innings.

    November 2005- Inzi makes 2 centuries in one match against England at Faisalabad, but the match is drawn. Kaneria picks up no wicket in this match.

    January 2006- Inzi makes 119 vs India at Faislabad. The match is drawn, Kaneria picks up 3 wickets in the match.

    ——————————

    So Omer, you can now see how much Inzamam was reliant on his bowlers winning matches, whenever he scored a Test century. And you can see how Kaneria has helped Inzamam became the icon he is in the world.

    If you look at Tendulkar’s centuries in Tests and even in ODI’s, you will realise that he has not received great help from his bowlers and this is why his great innings have not translated into match winning ones. Try and find me 5 matches from Tendulkar’s 20 year older career where he has made a century, Kumble has picked 5 wickets in an innings and India has gone on to draw or lose that match. You will not find any example, or you might find the odd exceptional example.

    How strange Inzamam who is compared with Tendulkar did not score any century in England, Australia, South Africa or New Zealand all these years. I know you will now say that the situation counts and that it’s the quality of runs that count even if the pitch is flat, but then if Tendulkar makes those runs on such pitches you will say that the pitch is flat.

  47. #47 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 12:48 AM

    Varun

    The word Incorrigible is used for people who are incapable of being corrected or reformed. And mostly it is referred, or used for an incorrigible criminal. So, you call me a criminal who cannot be corrected or reformed for criticizing Tendulkar? How ABSURD this can be.

    Awas

    You can say Tendulkar deserves the MoM award for his 175 and bringing his team close to victory. There is always a thin line between Victory and Defeat and a defeat is a defeat. Generally the MoM awards are given to the player from the winning side, but whenever Tendulkar has scored 100 and even India has lost and whenever the match is in India the people who decide to give the MoM award, always give it to Tendulkar. I am not saying his 175 was not a wonderful innings but it was in vain. And, the sympathies are always with Tendulkar for his vain efforts.

    khansahab

    Yes, that Australian team you are referring to has one of the worst set of bowlers they have in their team in the last 50 years. Did you know that Mike Hussey bowled today after a gap of 66 ODI’s?

    If Ricky Ponting had a choice he would have never used Mike Hussey to bowl. So, you and those who adore and worship Tendulkar can brag about his performance and his class against mediocre bowling.

  48. #48 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 12:48 AM

    Varun

    The word Incorrigible is used for people who are incapable of being corrected or reformed. And mostly it is referred, or used for an incorrigible criminal. So, you call me a criminal who cannot be corrected or reformed for criticizing Tendulkar? How ABSURD this can be.

    Awas

    You can say Tendulkar deserves the MoM award for his 175 and bringing his team close to victory. There is always a thin line between Victory and Defeat and a defeat is a defeat. Generally the MoM awards are given to the player from the winning side, but whenever Tendulkar has scored 100 and even India has lost and whenever the match is in India the people who decide to give the MoM award, always give it to Tendulkar. I am not saying his 175 was not a wonderful innings but it was in vain. And, the sympathies are always with Tendulkar for his vain efforts.

    khansahab

    Yes, that Australian team you are referring to has one of the worst set of bowlers they have in their team in the last 50 years. Did you know that Mike Hussey bowled today after a gap of 66 ODI’s?

    If Ricky Ponting had a choice he would have never used Mike Hussey to bowl. So, you and those who adore and worship Tendulkar can brag about his performance and his class.

  49. #49 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 12:51 AM

    khansahab & newguy

    You both are using the word “almost” there is a big difference between almost happened and actually happened. The reality that actually happened is, India lost. Tendulkar’s 175 were all in vain.

  50. #50 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 12:55 AM

    “I am probably the only one in this discussion who is speaking without any bias.” khansahab

    Oh, come on khansahab I don’t have a bias against anyone, this is just an observation based on facts. You aren’t saying anything about Gambhir today whereas the other day you wrote, “you will see the difference in the next match when Gambhir will play.”

    I knew that in one match Tendulkar will play big and I wrote it would be Mohali, but I was wrong he played it in Hyderabad.

  51. #51 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 2:04 AM

    The news from Abu Dhabi is, SALMAN BUTT is getting another chance to prove his worth or to regain his form. This is really very stupid. Why can’t they play Fawad Alam in his place? To be honest, even Malik is better than Butt as an opener. But, Malik is paying a price for making room for his buddy butt, he thought by refusing to open the innings he will get away after scoring that 100 against India. But, he is wrong and now he should get back to his old self of “Yours Obediently” like a HMV puppy and say, “I will play were my captain want me to play, if my captain ask me to open I will open, I am happy.” That is exactly what he used to during Inzi days.

  52. #52 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 2:33 AM

    Yes Omer, I know Fawad Alam is not in the ODI squad. But, this is just a silly reason.

    As regards India / Aus. series its not just you but, many people are saying that India will win the next ODI to keep the 7 ODI series interest alive hence, some are calling it a NOORA KUSHTI.

  53. #53 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 2:49 AM

    I was reading Saad Shafqat’s article on cricinfo titled “why Yusuf never learns from his mistakes?” And, highlighted the stats that out of 222 ODI, Yusuf ran himself out 38 times or 17% of his innings in other words every sixth match is a run out for him. Whereas, Tendulkar from his 430 plus innings gets run out after every 12th match. So, that is the difference.

    The author suggested that Yusuf’s vocabulary should be limited to “Yes,” “No” and “Wait”. I can bet Yusuf will still get run out and this reminds me of a DB (dumb blonde) joke.

    A DB comes back home and tells her mom that Tom laid her. Mom was very angry and said, “don’t you remember, I told you if he touches your boobs you should say “Don’t” and if he touches you below there…. you should tell him to “STOP.” and DB replied, yes Mom I told him and then it happened. Mom was a bit surprised and asked what happened? DB replied, he put one hand on my boobs and the other….. down there and I told him “Don’t Stop.”

    The thing is MoYo at least runs now, if his partner would say Yes, No and Wait, MoYo would stop in the middle of the pitch.

  54. #54 by newguy30 on November 6, 2009 - 4:10 AM

    Hi Guys,

    I was just watching the recorded match again, I did not see the match when it was played, just followed the ball by ball, so here is something I could not figure out..

    After 47 overs India was 332 for 6, Jadeja just hit two 4’s, and Tendulkar also was scoring freely, neither looked tense or tired, only tense look was on Ricky Pointing’s face and Aussie bowlers and fielders. At this point, commentators were saying match is in India’s hand, with 19 needed from 18 balls and two set batsman and no devil in the pitch, you would expect batting side to go through easily, in fact if it was Dhoni on one end they would have easily gone through because Dhoni is the only Indian player who is mentally tough not to do stupid things in this situation.

    But .. 1st ball of 48th over, McKay bowled a lollypop slow ball on leg stump which Tendulkar scooped to short fine leg, exact same shot that Misbah played in the T20WC, exact same shot and exact same result. I could see why he was doing that, he played the same shot couple of times early in the innings and scored boundaries, so he thought a boundary off 1st ball would bring match under further control.

    There was no need though, it was a risky shot and earlier they needed to take risks chasing a huge total, but 19 runs off 18 balls, no risk needed, just play proper cricket shots, instead of the cute paddle sweep. This was his undoing, and he fell short again when he could have went all the way.

    This is why I called Tendulkar flawed genius, he just could not finish it, but he should have, because it looked so easy. Even in the last over, all they needed was 8 runs, c’mon in the days of 20/20 these T20 specialist cannot score 8 runs in 6 balls. This was pathetic, Dhoni said after the match about India’s lack of mental toughness caused them the match. This is true, there is only Dhoni in Indian batting lineup who can finish a match.

    So, India gave up 2 matches so far, 3 if you count Vadodara where Bhajji and Praveen came so close, yet gave up in the end.

    Omer,

    The NZ/Aus series you are talking was played on smaller grounds in NZ. I recall this series, all 3 matches went to 300/350 range and NZ chased twice and won, in one match from dire situation. Some of the grounds in NZ the boundary is only 40 yards on the side, it’s so easy to score sixes and fours, normally 30 yards is the inner circle in a large ground, and these grounds are just 10 more yards on the side, but this ground in Hyderabad is quite large, so it’s quite different. But, anyhow, like I said India should have won easily today.

    For the record, I don’t think this was Tendulkar’s greatest knock, this was very good, but he just did not do enough to go over finish line, he was in control and should have, but instead played the Misbah shot 🙂

  55. #55 by newguy30 on November 6, 2009 - 4:11 AM

    Javed,

    Why is Fawad Alam not in the team? He was playing well whenever he got the opportunity, why did they not pick him in the squad? Is it another one of the political thingies.

  56. #56 by newguy30 on November 6, 2009 - 4:23 AM

    Omer,

    I have seen Viv Richards play and let me tell you, there was no better ODI batsman than him at the time he played, I won’t compare Tendulkar to Richards, these are two different batsmen, but if I were to rate them for sheer effect, I would rate Richards higher.

    He was something, the way he walked into the field, the way he chewed the gum, how he would stare down the bowler (usually it’s the other way around), his swagger at the crease, and then the pull shots, drives, and cuts, man he was powerful and menacing.

    He would pick a bowler for punishment, especially if that bowler had hurt WI in any one of the games, and would destroy him, hitting sixes after sixes and fours after fours.

    And, think of this, he never wore a helmet in his life, he will wear that Maroon cap and stay there, then hit the bowler powerfully back over his head, no fast bowler ever dared stare Viv Richards down let alone sledge him.

    So no question there, that man was the master.

  57. #57 by newguy30 on November 6, 2009 - 4:31 AM

    I have not seen Zaheer Abbas play, he retired by the time I started watching, Miandad of course was very good, but he never dominated bowling and he wasn’t stylish. Among the Pakistanis, I liked Saeed Anwar best, he was stylish, dominating, and would score fast.

    But Viv Richards was the very best. Among fast bowlers, Malcolm Marshal was the very best, these Australians like McGrath etc would not hold a candle to Marshal, he had such mastery and control over the ball and he bowled super fast.

  58. #58 by Shoaib on November 6, 2009 - 4:40 AM

    Varun

    I wasn’t talking about the cheap hookers of India. I was chatting about the qualities of Mr Shoaib Akhtar. I think you took it the other way round. Now if you believe so then let me say that cheap hookers may possibly available in any country in the world but not just in India.

    Now let’s talk about your ending words. The words you said in the end were cheaper than any cheap hooker. Excuse me, do you know me? I believe the people who love to predict other people’s character are not different from the next door Maasii of bollywood movies, full of masala and full of shit. I wanted to say a little bit more what you are getting on your screen right now.

    Let me say one thing that people living in abroad don’t live there to do ‘’gendegi’’ (in your words). That’s another next door bollywood Maasi’s mental design. People like you from far Asia when they talk about Western world the first thing cross their mind is ‘’gendegi’’ or ‘’sex’’. Perhaps this mind set is the result of watching too many western porn movies.

    That reminds me an older Indian guy who told me a funny story……..He goes people in Asia, they think as soon as your plane would hit the ground in any western country, airplane stairs would not touch the plane but women’s down parts would be wedged with the plane first, so you can start doing ‘’gendegi’’ immediately without wasting further time which has been wasted in 10 hours of flight. It’s not like that my friend.

    Please do not cough up on my character again, I tried to keep myself calm which I as a rule don’t do with the people of such words .

    Peace out

  59. #59 by Varun Suri on November 6, 2009 - 9:48 AM

    Shoaib beta,

    …..nor i ever went to india, so never got a chance to get a cheap hooker

    I do not know how this statement is reflectin on Shoaib Akhtar’s character. Like a patriot Indian i am i would obviously defend it by a personal attack on you.

    For your kind information I am not sittin here in far asia i have been in Netherlands and before that in UK for almost a decade so i know exactly what Indian and Pakistanis sitting in their homes think and feel about the West and i also know what many of them do when they first land up in west. I am sorry if my statements hurt you but this is what i learnt since i started writing on this Blog.. specially from Javed Sir!i.e… TIT for TAT.

    As far as Bollywood is concerned I am agree with you. I am totally disgusted by todays actors and movies but 70’s and 80’s was a different time and like all Indians i grew up on the Bollywood diet and I like the actors and singers of the older generation and that is the reason i don’t even remember the last time i saw a recently released Hindi movie in a Cinema Theatre .

  60. #60 by Varun Suri on November 6, 2009 - 9:58 AM

    Dear Javed,

    The word Incorrigible is used for people who are incapable of being corrected or reformed. And mostly it is referred, or used for an incorrigible criminal.

    Well i did intend to use this word as you’ve described in the first sentence. Excuse my English but i did not want to use it in the Criminal Sense.

    It is just that ever since i am writing on this Blog i have admitted any wrong thing or apologised for anything negative i must have said to hurt anyone’s feelings but maybe your ego is too much for me to expect the same from you. Even after such a knock by the li’l master you can only find ways to criticize him and just for my curiosity did the Glove men SMS’ed you what message he is taking for Sachin?

    Does he not know himself what his score is or how many runs he needs to cross 17000 or Saeed Anwar’s record. You are the first person to mention about Saeed Anwar’s record and it was you who was shit-scared when he was unbeaten on 175 that he’d take the only ODI Batting Record a Pakistani holds but as it turned out it wasn’t meant to be.

    Yesterday’s match explains the Tendulkar story so many times he has performed exceptionally well when all others around him have failed. He cannot be hold responsible for not crossing the line and taking India home if the other guys cannot even score 18 of 18 balls. Like newguy said and like i have said before he is not a GOD and that’s why he will have his weaknesses and faults.

    Like Omer you are reminded of flat-pitches and weak-bowling only when he scores big when Dear Omer very easily overlooks the fact that both of Sehwag’s 300’s came on a flat pitch especially the dustbowl of Multan.

    Why don’t you openly accept the fact that as a Pakistani you just can’t stand Tendulkar and would love to see the back of him the day he retires. As an Indian i never felt that way for Waqar or Wasim when we had no bowlers of their capability. But is it too much to ask the same from you?

  61. #61 by Varun Suri on November 6, 2009 - 10:06 AM

    Excusez Moi Monsieur Javed, ofcourse Afridi’s records are unforgettable so i must correct myself by saying that Saeed Anwar’s record is not the only ODI Batting Record by a Pakistani

  62. #62 by Varun Suri on November 6, 2009 - 10:19 AM

    Just to put things in perspective the following comment on one of the Blogs accurately describes the usual Pakistani attitude towards Tendulkar:-


    karachikhatmal • Nov 6, 2009 @06:46

    pakistanis have always loved claiming that sachin is no great cuz he can never finish the match. tonight would seem like such an example, but like every generalization it requires a closer look, and you’ve said it best jrod – the other guys were about as useful as a pair of skis in karachi.

    my heart breaks for sachin, he’s played as many lone hand losing innings as lara. before, like in chennai in 1999 you thought that well the rest of the team sucked shit. but this line up is the best indian line up i have ever seen, surely they could have put together 176 runs between the 10 of them.

    i wonder how ponting feels – lost the ashes with a superior side, winning in india with a vastly inferior side…

  63. #63 by Shoaib on November 6, 2009 - 11:57 AM

    Varun

    ”I am not Shoaib Akhtar, neither i have genital warts nor i ever went to india, so never got a chance……..” I was talking about Shoaib Akhtar, dont be so xxxxxxxx that you couldnt understand a simple sentence.

    I dont care where you live, but better mind your language. I can see your mentality level that first thing you do is attack on someones character now does’nt matter whether if you misunderstand the other person but that’s what you do…right? attack on someones character. So you said as a patriotic Indian you will defend your country like this….so you are representing the general mentality of an Indian? or is it just your sickness? and no one attacked on India, YET!!

    Tit for tat? what tit for tat, so you are another idiot who does Tat with someones else’s Tit. I dont know what Javed said to you but there is no way you can just start pissing on other people cuz Javed said something to you…….although i never read Javed comments but i think whatever he said to you justifies. I guess Javed should take one step further and give you a slap too.

  64. #64 by Varun Suri on November 6, 2009 - 12:53 PM

    Shoaib,

    Without going any further I would end this futile discussion with you right now!

    You talk about my mentality and impoliteness but the way you write you are no different than me, after all genetically we are quite similar arent we?

    Before commenting on my language atleast first see the kind of words you have used and then you will know who has been more polite and respectful between both of us.

    If you get so pissed by any random person writing anything to you i can only imagine what will happen if we ever were to talk face to face.

    Goodbye…Alvida for now.

  65. #65 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 12:57 PM

    Varun;

    It is wrong to assume that I don’t apologize or say sorry if I am corrected. You may scroll up or check in the previous thread or, ask newguy that very recently when he corrected me, I apologized for the oversight and misunderstanding also, in quoting Ravi Shastri’s comment. newguy – did I or, did I not?

    So, Varun my ego is not like a hot air balloon if that is what you think and you are not the only generous and righteous person here to say “I apologize”. We all make mistakes and some of us don’t feel ashamed in admitting our mistakes and I never felt ashamed in admitting my mistake. In the corporate world (i.e., when I used to work) my colleagues and my sub-ordinates used to love me more than my bosses because, not only that I used to apologize but always encouraged them to correct me if I am wrong. So, I have no problem of ego as such. Here it is not a matter of mistake but of opinions and that too about players. And, I wrote before that “Na Sehwag mera Dost hai, na Tendulkar mera Dushman.” Perhaps you didn’t read that.

    If Pakistanis like to see the back of Tendulkar, the Indians also love to see the back of Shahid Afridi, but such is the game of cricket. In Pakistan whenever and wherever Tendulkar played he got standing ovation and got cheered by Pakistanis they even displayed banners, play cards and posters in praising him. On the streets of Lahore, in the shops and restaurants people refused to accept money from him for the goods he bought and the food he ate. You may not believe this but, it actually happened. And, Tendulkar himself admitted the food as amazing and the people very hospitable.

    As regards Saeed Anwar’s record, to be very honest with you I don’t give any shit, one day someone will break it, records are meant to be broken and may be someone will make even 200. May be any of the aggressive openers like Gayle, Brendon McCullum, Sehwag etc., could break it and who knows? And, that will be a treat to watch, however I can guarantee that Tendulkar will not break that record. NEVER.

    Your quote from a different blog also means nothing to me because, there are hundreds of other Indians who write on various other blogs and vent their anti-Pakistani feelings and unlike you and me they use fictitious names.

    PS.

    Since you are saying that your intention in using the word incorrigible was not meant in the criminal sense, I believe you.

  66. #66 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 1:07 PM

    Varun & Shoaib

    Please take a chill pill. Its not worth exchanging such comments. Varun has confirmed that he doesn’t want to discuss anything on this subject, so Shoaib you simply ignore this and get back to cricket.

    New Zealand’s partnership of 126 between Guptil and McCullum was going great and now suddenly 3 wickets have fallen within 13 runs. Abdul Razzaq is a bit more expensive. The sad part of Pakistan is the rear part or the BUTT. I don’t understand why they have to play him?

    newguy – yes there is politics and that too big time politics in keeping Fawad Alam out of the squad.

  67. #67 by Varun Suri on November 6, 2009 - 1:14 PM

    Javed,

    I did read all of your comments and like always believe you that you don’t have an inflated ego but it is just that the way you try to criticize and find faults in Tendulkar it gave me that impression. As far as Afridi is concerned I might or might not like to see his back depending on whether he is playing against India or not but i never look for different ways to criticise him or belittle any of his acheivements.

    Regarding Saeed Anwar’s record ofcourse it’s easy to guarantee now but I am not so sure if you felt the same way when he was on 175 yesterday. You are wrong in assuming that he was playing for Anwar’s record otherwise he would not have Misbah-ed himself. If you observe carefully there was a period of 7-10 balls when Jadeja was on strike and he hit 2 fours and then few dots so due to the pressure Tendulkar was looking for the boundry so that match is over before the powerplay finishes in 49 over and that’s how he got out. It is just that Do you seriously believe that person who has been playing for 20 long years would care for such trivial numbers like 17000 or 194 or whatever?

    Anyhow what has happened has happened, on a different subject Why no comments on Pak-NZ match is anybody watching or not?

  68. #68 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 1:21 PM

    Vettori coming ahead of Broom and Jacob Oram is a good move, he is such a wonderful player and a very motivating captain that he has once again boosted McCullum’s confidence in striking the ball at a faster rate which slowed down after the fall of Guptil’s wicket. They are doing fine and can score 330 plus and McCullum is sure to get his 100 here. The Pakistani fast bowling attack is pretty ineffective on this pitch their only chance was to get wickets through spin bowling. Afridi managed one and Ajmal none and they both have a few overs left. Therefore, it is important for McCullum to keep cool and attack the fast bowlers in the later stage of the game and avail the batting power play advantage to his best.

  69. #69 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 1:33 PM

    Varun

    It never came to my mind about SA’s record ONLY when the commentator (either Gavaskar or, Siva Rama Laxman) said, “he could very well make 200 here today and break records.” And, that was when he was on 172 and was hitting good shots. And, right then before the completion of the over, the glove boys ran up to him and were soon sent back by the umpire, but they had a word with Tendulkar. And the same commentator was saying, “may be the boys were bringing a message for him to keep his cool and go for the records.” After that it took long time for Tendulkar to add 3 more runs before getting out. So, they create the pressure and he is known for getting stuck in the 90’s, even his son suggested him something funny.

    My point was and it is still the same that, whenever Indian batsmen are playing be it Tendulkar, Sehwag, Yuvraj or Dhoni, (and the same for bowlers after Kumble’s 10 wickets haul) the Indian commentators, the media, the fans and the supporters they all suddenly start talking about personal records and milestones rather than team winning the game.

    Btw, you are too impatient, I did write about Pak – NZ game even before you asked and even after that and now I have to go, I have an appointment and by the time I will be back the match will be over. Its a shame that I won’t be able to watch the exciting last 15 overs of NZ batting.

  70. #70 by Varun Suri on November 6, 2009 - 1:55 PM

    Vettori gone and then Afridi gets a second one for a duck. What an amazing bowler he has turned out to be of late. If only he would have realised his complete potential he could well have been an all-rounder comparable to Imran Khan or Ian Botham!!

    Arre yaar Javed I am not impatient, we both wrote at the same time and just when i submitted i saw your comment.

    Omer, i get your point but kya karen jawani mai kabhi kabhi hosh ko baithhe hai!

  71. #71 by newguy30 on November 6, 2009 - 5:29 PM

    Afridi gone for a first ball duck trying to hit over short mid wicket, second ball if you consider the wide that he faced as a ball. There was no need to send in Afridi now, either they should have opened with him or let him play at #7 to finish things off. Bad move. Pakistan need a partnership here, a major one, run rate has climbed to 8 an over, but if they keep wickets they can do it, one of MoYo, Malik, or Akmal has to score big, Butt is playing the anchor role, he should stay around for some more time.

    The pitch is flat and the NZ bowlers are not a great threat, but as I said yesterday, it’s never easy chasing 300 or 350 against any team, the pressure will just get to the batsmen, then a couple of wickets fall the run rate will mount and you have to try and take risks. That is why it’s easy to bat first and score 300+ than chase it.

  72. #72 by newguy30 on November 6, 2009 - 5:49 PM

    Javed,

    I also saw the towel boys coming to Tendulkar and Jadeja in the middle of innings, and the commentator said something, but I don’t see how you interpret it as a message to go for the record, and it’s not Anwar’s record alone anymore is it, that guy from Zimbabwe is tied with Anwar now, right, so it’s their record 🙂

    Anyhow, I don’t see 194 as a big thing, if anyone can break 200 then I would consider it as a great deal, after so many years and so many great players, no one has broken the 200, it shows how hard it is, it is not even worth bothering, but may be someday someone will do it, but it won’t be Sehwag, I guarantee you Sehwag will not get there, he will get out before that. He may be able to get to another 300 in test cricket who knows, but in ODI no way.

    As for Indian commentators praising Sachin, I agree partially, but it was Robin Jackman I think who said about 200 runs record, not Siva or Gavaskar, but .. Gavaskar is so annoying when he is commentating on Tendulkar’s batting, he just keep praising him so much that I feel like going inside a shell and hiding, he is like a petting father praising his son, when Tendulkar got out Gavaskar was the other commentator, he was shocked and he went silent for a moment, then he started saying all kinds of things to support that shot.

    He was saying, “that shot was on, you see the bowler bowled a slower delivery that is why he chipped it to fielder, he had to hit it harder instead of just helping along the way, you see it was on..” so on .. someone should have told Gavaskar that bowler bowled slower ball trying to deceit the batsman and he fell for it, there is no defending that shot, in fact no need to, he tried his best, it was a great effort, but in the end fielding team held on, batting team just could not put together a few runs needed to finish, end of story, like I said MS Dhoni would have finished the match.

    That said, I still see no evidence he was more worried about another record at that time. I will admit that the nervousness around records is there for Tendulkar, may be it is the crowd pressure, if you noticed when he was going to complete that 17,000 runs crowd was roaring every ball, that kinds of puts anyone under pressure, agreed some players don’t care. Tendulkar does, but you cannot say because of this he is not a team player.

    Look at Cricinfo stats, 32 of his hundreds have resulted in an India win, he has more hundreds in team wins than any other player, and his percentage of runs in wins is much higher than in losses, again more than any other player, his average in India’s losses are 33, where was in wins it is 48, so clearly when he has performed well India has won more often than not. As for his scoring rate and avg, in 2009 he has scored at a rate of 94 with an average of 48, anyone asking Tendulkar to retire should check whether they are looking at facts or simply biased.

    But I don’t think you are totally biased, he have your way of looking at achievements and you are partially right on certain things, about Indian crowd, and commantators praising him too much, his getting stuck on records so on, but I think you are wrong about him not playing for the team, he does and along the way if he gets some personal records what is wrong with it?

  73. #73 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 7:39 PM

    Like I said, by the time I will be back the match will be over also before checking the result, I knew what the result must have been and I am not disappointed. In fact I am disappointed why NZ did not score 330 plus and only 303?

    Afridi’s first ball duck is not new either. He is such an idiot who gets carried away when some fellow Pathans are cheering him with “Chacka, Chacka, Chacka” and he thinks he can hit the first ball for a six each time he comes to the crease. Idiot hai sala.

    The sad thing is, Salman but has cemented his place for the next ODI by scoring 59 wo bhee reng, reng kay. And, Drama Khan should rethink about his retirement plans and say ” I quit 50 overs and 20 overs game once for all.”

    Btw, what was Shoaib Malik’s role in this match? What exactly did he do?

  74. #74 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 6, 2009 - 7:45 PM

    newguy

    I think Gavaskar is actually re-living his own new life in Tendulkar’s body and soul. Things that he could not achieve, he wants Tendulkar to do that. But, Robin Jackman is a big time asshole he sucks up to everyone, he has no opinion of his own. When he was commentating for a match between SA and PK he was so biased, so biased that he was literally criticizing everything and anything that is even positive and good about Pakistan and he was turning everything into negative. Ravi Shastri and Manjrekar are better than most Indian and Pakistani commentators. Ramiz was OK as long as he was impartial and his English is also better than all other Pakistani commentators but, now he has become very biased and have deep rooted jingoistic feelings even against his own team members. So, I don’t like this approach from him. A commentator needs to be fair and impartial.

  75. #75 by newguy30 on November 6, 2009 - 10:19 PM

    Two of Tendulkar’s great test innings, see below:

    This hundred made against Australia in Australia in a lightning fast WACA pitch in Perth is considered one of the very best played in that ground by many experts:

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63567.html

    Look at Indian 1st innings score and the next highest score is 34. This is his early days.

    Second one here saved this test for India:

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63535.html

    Indian bowlers and batsmen around that time was more than mediocre, especially in places like Australia and England. Those days when India went abroad the question is whether or not any player can win matches, whether they can draw matches, or at least can someone score a decent hundred. This is the background Tendulkar started off.

    It is now that he is enjoying the support of batsmen like Sehwag, Youvraj, Dhoni, and Gambhir in ODIs, Tendulkar himself said after the CB series victory in Australia that he helped win BTW, that this is the strongest Indian team he has ever played with, in other words he always longed for some support and some wins, but never could get it until now, of course in Tests he got Dravid, Ganguly, Laxman, but that was in 2000s, there was the whole 90s where Tendulkar carried India alone, with no support in bat or ball.

    This is the reason why he wants to play one last ODI WC, he believes he now has a chance with this team to be part of that success he never had.

  76. #76 by khansahab on November 6, 2009 - 11:36 PM

    Omer

    Thank you for teaching me the difference between Tests and ODI’s. Kindly also tell me the difference between chalk and cheese, and black and white.

    Actually, you are the one undermining facts. In every comment of mine I have provided statistics, logic, reasoning to show how twisted and biased your analyses are. It would be crystal clear to the neutral observer that when the batsman is your preferred one, you very conveniently forgo the “flat pitch” argument, but when the batsman is someone you don’t like, you use that argument to undermine his innings.

    There is no greater example of that than saying for instance that, Gambhir is not great because he has not played good bowlers and on good pitches, whereas you very conveniently forgot that Sehwag has been playing the same bowlers and same pitches for the past 5 years.

    I have seen a TV interview of McGrath myself where he is saying no one plays him better than Tendulkar, and I have seen and read Warne saying the same. It is a very well known fact.

    About McGrath saying Lara was the best, all I can surmise is that maybe the West Indies Cricket Board has now got McGrath on the payroll?

    It is understandable why Tendulkar is revered in India- like how Inzamam, who is mediocre COMPARED TO Lara, Ponting, Tendulkar etc, is revered in Pakistan. Look at how Imran Khan is revered in Pakistan; the common man thinks he is an intellectual, whereas in truth Imran Khan can barely speak decent English or provide an intellectual view about a matter of policy. He is an intelligent man COMPARED TO the common Pakistani man, but no intellectual.

    You should not read a post 5 times to see whether it mentions facts or fiction. Just read the damned thing 5 times to understand what it is trying to say, fact or fiction notwithstanding. Otherwise you will make plenty of more of these mistakes such as saying I labelled Laxman as a mediocre player, whereas I did NOT.

  77. #77 by khansahab on November 6, 2009 - 11:42 PM

    Javed A Khan

    I can’t find that comment where I said Gambhir will perform in the next match. I am not saying you are lying- I just can’t find it and I don’t remember saying it.

    What I might have said is that Gambhir will probably outscore Sehwag in this series, which is very likely, as always.

    So far Gambhir has made 158 runs in 4 matches at a strike rate of 82, Sehwag has made 132 runs in 5 matches with a strike rate of 114. It is very clear who has been the better performer- Sehwag may have played some Malikesque or Hafeezesque innings of 30 in 20 balls and shattered the confidence of 1 or 2 bowlers, but his performance so far where he is averaging 26 is unimpressive and will shatter the confidence of his fans.

  78. #78 by newguy30 on November 7, 2009 - 12:06 AM

    Omer,

    Laxman is a very good test player, and he has played some wonderful knocks on winning causes especially against Australia the #1 test team in this decade, none more famous than his 281 to turn the Kolkata test around and win from behind.

    Sure, this is great, and he will be remembered for that for ever, but, this is what he will be remembered for mostly, he has not attained consistency, look at his 14 hundreds, most of them have come at good time and in good causes, but he is not consistent.

    I think you are still using the wrong parameter, and this is what Javed Khan is also doing, that you are using winning matches or contributing to winnings causes as a measure of batting greatness. Tendulkar has not done that compared to Laxman and Dravid, but that is not the sign of batting greatness.

    This is what Khansaheb is trying to tell you, but you keep going back to McGrath said this, flat pitches, winning matches, and so on.. none of that matters just look at his consistency, his bating records, and how he makes those runs. Just tell me one thing, is there an ugly thing in Tendulkar’s batting or not?

    So, in the end, Tendulkar is only marginally ahead of his peers, namely Lara and Ponting in Test batsmanship, but he is miles ahead of them in terms of consistency, longevity, ability to play most kinds of bowlers, so on.

  79. #79 by Pawan on November 7, 2009 - 1:30 AM

    Omer Farooq Khan

    ISLAMABAD: Peshawar-based Mustafa Kamal has had enough: he has just got his12-year-old son freed from a band of criminals in the lawless tribal area of Khyber agency by paying a ransom. He has left a lucrative job with Pakistan’s telecommunication department and now has the immigartion papers for Canada ready for his entire family.

    “I’m lucky to have found my son alive. But I won’t take any more risk. Life has become extremely dangerous — it’s not worth living here. Enough’senough,” says Kamal.

    For a country badly bloodied by a wave of suicide attacks (at least eight this month alone), the next tragedy appears to be collapse of governance. The Pakistani state is pitted against a wide array of militant groups across the country in a situation teetering on the brink of a civil war. And the chasm between the government and the people seems to be growing by the day.

    The popular perception is that Pakistan is fighting the US war against terror. Many people in the lawless North West Frontier Province say Pakistan has been sold to the US piece by piece. Under coercion, they argue, Pakistan has started a war that has consumed its economy, national security, and has torn apart its social fabric.

    “Our national integrity is at risk. I wish not to see the end of Pakistan in my lifetime. It is not yet too late for Pakistan to return from the precipice of national suicide. Pakistan must take a u-turn and preempt the civil war. Pakistan must say an emphatic no to the US,” says Rabnawaz Khan, a former Pakistani diplomat, stressing that an internally torn Pakistan does not weaken but strengthens militants.

    The civil unrest has spilled into many parts, giving rise to fear psychosis among citizens. So much so that when twin blasts rocked Islamabad’s Islamic University on October 20, many did not believe that it was militants’ handiwork. Instead, they blamed “indistinct forces out to discredit Islam or weaken Pakistan”.

    That attack led the authorities to take an unprecedented step of closing down all schools, colleges and other training institutions in the country. “The law and order situation has only worsened since the military operations against the Taliban started. How can we believe that things will normalize by carrying out a big operation in Waziristan? I think the repercussions are going to be more blasts and suicide attacks,” said Palwasha Zia, a third year student of Home Economics in Peshawar.

    “People are very scared. Every time I go to market, I worry about blasts. We are being targeted and our life has become very difficult. We are hoping the situation will get better. What else can we do?” says Shaheen Akhtar, a deputy provost of Peshawar University.

    October has been the cruelest month. Militants have struck UN offices, police buildings, army headquarters in Rawalpindi and ambushed security forces. The government response has been on expected lines: it swiftly sent troops to battle the entrenched militants in trouble-torn South Waziristan and beefed up security in all major cities. Reportedly, there were at least 72 check posts at entry and exit points around sensitive installations in Islamabad before these attacks. Now, the check points have been increased up to 300 in the federal capital.

    Has it helped? Margalla Road, the most expensive and posh area of Islamabad, has almost been turned into a fortress, with concrete barricades, security pickets and barbed wires installed in most of the places. The residents say driving inside the capital has become extremely difficult as they are checked several times a day during routine work. “Establishing security pickets in residential areas and check points have not resolved the issue of law and order; rather the situation has further deteriorated,” said a traffic police official in Islamabad’s Blue area, wishing not to be named.

    Just two days after the attack on Islamic university that killed seven people, suspected militants shot dead a senior Pakistani army officer of brigadier rank and a soldier in Islamabad on Wednesday, suggesting militants are shifting tactics in the face of a sweeping army drive in their South Waziristan stronghold.

    “First, it was Peshawar. Then Islamabad and Karachi, and now Lahore and Rawalpindi. When you live in a place which is under threat of continuous attacks, you’ll have to think twice before you step out of your house. The scare among people is visible — there are fewer people out on streets,” says Mujeeb-ur Rehman, a news anchor in Islamabad-based TV station.

    The frequent terror attacks have greatly damaged the business climate. Nasir Dawood, who ran a boutique shop in Rawalpindi’s Raja Bazaar till last week has finally shut shop. “My business was badly damaged in the last one year. Scared customers don’t come for shopping. To avoid any further losses, I had no option,” Nasir said.

    Habibullah Zahid, another businessman who owns four restaurants in Peshawar, has shifted his family to Islamabad to escape the constant threats of militants. “Though my business was affected, I left Peshawar due to threats to my life. A group of militants or criminals in the Khyber tribal area has made it a habit to make threatening calls, demanding money in millions. I could no more give in to their demands,” says Zahid.

  80. #80 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 7, 2009 - 2:59 AM

    newguy;

    you may hate me for saying this, I tend to agree with Omer’s views because, I feel the same way he does. But, this doesn’t mean I hate Tendulkar which most of you think I do. We are only comparing the players, their technique and their style of batting. We are not Gavaskar to be praising him to the extent of adoring and worshiping him. If he plays well, we say yes he did play well.

    There is a total contrast between Tendulkar and Sehwag when it comes to taking pressure. Tendulkar gets stuck in the nineties and in achieving personal milestones whereas, Sehwag hits a six to complete his century or his double hundred or, triple hundred. Tendulkar is unlucky in tests not to have scored a triple century YET despite all his batting prowess, his genius, his ability to dominate the bowlers under every circumstances, YET he has not scored a triple century but Sehwag has done it twice. Lara has done it twice.

  81. #81 by Varun Suri on November 7, 2009 - 8:07 AM

    Theek hai Yaaron ab bas bhi karo….

    End this debate now as it’s not leading us anywhere..As far as this topic is concerned it will always be Omer/Javed V/S khansahab&myself with newguy being the neutral one…neither side has moved an inch since the time we started debating on this topic. Let’s find a new topic now.

  82. #82 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 8:48 AM

    Omer

    There is a difference between being “great” and being “a great”. You can say someone is a great talent, or a great batsman (you might say Umer Akmal is a great batsman), but that does not mean he is an all-time great.

    I certainly did not mean to say Gambhir is “a great”. He is a “great player” in the sense of what he has achieved in those 25 Tests, how he has helped India win matches and attain the no 1 or no 2 rank in ICC ratings, some innings he has played such as that famous one vs South Africa I mentioned, and also for his personal achievements of receiving the ICC Player of the Year award and civilian awards in India.

    I don’t need to repeat myself but I showed you who has received the ICC Player of the Year awards, and every one of them is considered a “great player”. Although let me add here, and that am NOT saying Gambhir is great, as the other recipients of this award such as Ponting and Yousuf.

    Omer, the way you are saying that where was Tendulkar when Laxman and Dravid helped beat Australia, in the same way I can also say where was Dhoni and Yuvraj and Sehwag when Tendulkar made 175. He made more than half the score of the team- where were they all?

    Whether it’s one day or Test cricket, a win and loss is usually dependent on a team effort. I have proved this to you by using Inzamam’s example and how the bowlers have helped him.

    You are still not understanding my point- let us first discuss what we are debating. Are we debating who is a BETTER BATSMAN, or who is a better TEAM PLAYER? I wonder if you yourself know what you are debating, because you say Tendulkar is the best ODI batsman, whereas he is not a match winner. And yet, you say in Tests Sehwag and Lara are better than him, because they are match winners.

    So what is your point? Or are you saying that in Tests match winning ability matters more than in ODI’s, because that is a twisted and rather biased view?

  83. #83 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 8:56 AM

    Omer

    You never know what sort of innings against whatever great opposition they are going to pull. This is what captures the neutral viewer’s imagination, I can understand that if I were Indian, I might have followed his statistics

    So you reward inconsistency and unpredictability because you say Lara and Sehwag are more attractive to watch than Tendulkar. I would rather watch Sehwag play than Tendulkar, but the question is not about who is better to watch. Afridi is the best batsman to watch when he is on song. But, that does not make him a good batsman. The question essentially is who is more skilled, complete, perfect.

    When you say who is the “best”, you speak in terms of who is more complete, perfect and skilled. You don’t say who your “personal favourite” is. As a personal favourite I like Dravid more than Tendulkar. But, as a neutral and unbiased commentator, Tendulkar is the most complete, the most perfect and most skilled batsman of our time.

    That is why I said I am the only one speaking without bias, because I am not Indian, I am not supporting Inzamam and I am not praising Dravid although personally I consider him a gentleman, a class act and a legend- his shots look beautiful and more attractive than Tendulkar, it’s just that Tendulkar can hit any ball for 4 and 6 whereas Dravid has his limitations. That is the difference in skill.

    Actually, people who follow statistics are those who don’t watch the game that closely. Indians do not follow Tendulkar’s statistics as much as English, West Indian, South African people do. I rely more on statistics to assess teams which I don’t follow that closely.

    I honestly don’t know what your problem is Omer- you use statistics to prove a point sometimes, as recently you said Imran Khan averaged 58 for a while, but then you accuse others of following statistics. If Tendulkar and Gambhir score, it is on a flat pitch, but if Sehwag scores, it is because he is a match winner (HELLO! Sehwag and Gambhir have been playing the same pitches and bowlers for the past 5 years)

    You know you mentioned averages, how about these averages then:

    Tendulkar averaged 91 in 1993
    70 in 1994
    63 in 1997
    81 in 1998
    68 in 1999
    64 in 2000
    63 in 2001
    92 in 2004
    69 (so far) in 2009

    Last year your God Sehwag was asked whether Tendulkar should retire and this is what your God said,

    “Tendulkar is ‘god of cricket’ and should continue as long as he wants.”

    See Omer, your God’s God is Sachin Tendulkar 🙂 In other words, baap ka baap.

  84. #84 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 12:47 PM

    Omer

    Since now it is clear that you skim read comments, I find it redundant to carry on with this debate.

    I would like to say the unnecessary, but effective, “I am agree” to you in the end.

    That comment from you saying, “That is intelligent Khansahab”, was actually not at all intelligent on your part. But never mind.

  85. #85 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 12:58 PM

    Inzamam also criticised Younis, the coach Intikhab Alam and chief selector Iqbal Qasim for Shoaib Malik for the first game against New Zealand in Abu Dhabi. “It is a stupid thing they did because he is too experienced a player to be dropped or sacrificed for accommodating two regular openers,” he said. “Malik’s exclusion has spoilt the balance of the team and this will be obvious against stronger sides.”

    Inzamam obviously does not know what he is talking about, because Malik’s inclusion against stronger sides has often been a disadvantage.

  86. #86 by newguy30 on November 7, 2009 - 1:39 PM

    Omer,

    I see no point in continuing this discussion as it is very clear you have your mind set on something that is immovable, and it is not based on facts alone as you claim, because I can show facts that prove my side, yet it will not budge you.

    Like I have said a few times before, to me it does not matter whether Tendulkar is greater than Lara or not, they are both greats and if Lara is greater so be it, but I am only objecting because you and Javed Khan both are incorrect in many of your arguments, in fact Javed makes better points to which I agree like how Tendulkar gets stuck on 90s and so on, but you seem to be now comparing people like Laxman to Tendulkar. As for Ponting he is mentally strong, all Australians are, it is in their genes and their upbringing, sub-continental people are not mentally that tough. But as a player, he hasn’t succeeded in India in Test, and this is a flaw, he hasn’t played enough cricket in Pakistan and Sri Lanka to rate him there, so he is a limited player who hasn’t succeeded in a wide variety of conditions, hence he cannot be compared to these two greats.

    Lastly, Ponting do care about records, he wants to win because he wants to be known as the best Australian captain, he is competing with Steve Waugh for a legacy, and it is a well known fact that Ponting wants to be the highest test run getter, he is hoping he can outlast Tendulkar since he is younger and go on to overtake him in runs and centuries. This is one motivation for him.

  87. #87 by Varun Suri on November 7, 2009 - 3:54 PM

    Arre bhaiya Omer,

    I really admire the passion,enthusiasm and energy by which you are defending your points. But alas! It has been a futile exercise and I wish you all the best in convincing One Billion Indians and many others like khansahab about Sehwag being a better Test Batsmen than Tendulkar, amongst other wonderful observations.

  88. #88 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 6:14 PM

    Varun/Newguy

    The following article has been written by an Englishman who confirms the points I made about Tendulkar:

    1) Better than Lara
    2) Best at executing the basics- I used the word “basics” whereas Roebuck uses the word “simplicity”. The fact is that he does not need to slog like Sehwag or dance on the pitch like Lara- he can play better than them using perfect timing, technique, shot selection WITHOUT the need to slog or use extravagant footwork. That is his genius.

    Born to bat

    Peter Roebuck

    Sachin Tendulkar’s exalted standing in the game can’t be defined by figures alone.

    SACHIN Tendulkar has been playing top class cricket for 20 years. That’s a heck of a long time, yet it seems to have passed in the blink of an eye.

    When he first took guard in his country’s colours, the Berlin Wall was intact, Nelson Mandela was behind bars, Allan Border was captaining Australia and India was a patronised country known for its dust, poverty and timid batsmen.

    Tendulkar was a tousle-haired cherub prepared to stand his ground against all-comers, including Wasim Akram and Merv Hughes, the most menacing of the Australians. Now, aged 36, he is a tousle-haired elder still standing firm, still driving and cutting, still retaining some of the impudence of youth, but bearing also the sagacity of age.

    It has been an incredible journey, a trip that figures alone cannot define – not that the statistics lack weight, to the contrary, they are astonishing.

    Tendulkar has scored an avalanche of runs in every form of the game, passing the 17,000-run mark in one-day internationals on Thursday against Australia with 175 – his second highest score – from 141 balls. He has reached three figures in the colours of his country 87 times – 42 times in Tests and 45 in ODIs – and all the while has retained his freshness, avoided the mechanical, the repetitive and the predictable. Perhaps that has been part of it – the ability to retain the precious gift of youth so that it is not swamped by the knowledge that time alone can bring. Alongside Shane Warne, the Indian master has been the most satisfying cricketer of his generation.

    Tendulkar has scored as many runs overseas as in his backyard, has flogged Brett Lee at his fastest and Warne at his most obtuse, has flourished against swing and cut, prospered in damp and dry. And his record cannot be take for granted.

    Batsmen exist primarily to score runs. It is a damnably difficult task made to look easy by a handful. Others have promised and fallen back, undone by the demands, unable to meet the moment. Tendulkar has kept going, hunger unabated. In part, he has lasted so long because there has been so little inner strain. It’s hard to think of a player who has spent so little energy conquering himself. Throughout, he has been able to concentrate on overcoming his opponents.

    But it has not only been about runs. Along the way, Tendulkar has provided an unsurpassed blend of the sublime and the precise. In him, the technical and the natural sit side by side, friends not enemies, allies deep in conversation.

    Romantics talk about those early morning trips to Shivaji Park, and the child eager to erect the nets and anxious to bat till someone took his wicket. They want to believe that toil alone can produce that straight drive and a bat so broad that periodically it is measured. But it was not like that. From the start, the lad had an uncanny ability to execute his strokes perfectly. His boyhood coaches insist their role was to ensure he remained unspoilt. Sensing he knew the game inside out, they were wise enough to leave him to his own devices, let him work it out for himself. There was no apprenticeship. Tendulkar was born to bat.

    Over the decades, it has been Tendulkar’s rare combination of mastery and boldness that has delighted connoisseurs and crowds alike. More than any other batsman, even Brian Lara, Tendulkar’s batting has elicited gasps of admiration. A single withering drive dispatched along the ground eluding the bowler, placed unerringly between fieldsmen, could provoke wonder even among the oldest hands. A solitary square cut was enough to make a spectator’s day. Tendulkar might lose his wicket cheaply, but he is incapable of playing an ugly stroke. His defence might have been designed by Christopher Wren. And alongside these muscular orthodoxies could be found ornate flicks through the on-side, glides off his bulky pads that sent tight deliveries dashing into the back and beyond. Viv Richards could terrorise an attack with pitiless brutality, Lara could dissect bowlers with surgical and magical strokes, Tendulkar can take an attack apart with towering simplicity.

    Tendulkar has never stooped to dullness or cynicism. Throughout, his wits have remained sharp and originality has been given its due. He has, too, been remarkably constant. In those early appearances, he relished the little improvisations calculated to send bowlers to the madhouse, cheeky strokes that told of ability and nerve. For a time thereafter, he put them in the cupboard, not because respectability beckoned or responsibility weighed him down, but because they were not required. Shot selection, his very sense of the game, counts among his strengths. On his most recent trip to Australia, though, he decided to restore audacity, cheekily undercutting lifters, directing the ball between fieldsmen, shots the bowlers regarded as beyond the pale. Even in middle age he remains unbroken.

    And yet, even this, the runs, the majesty, the thrill, does not capture his achievement. Reflect on his circumstances and then marvel at his longevity. Here is a man obliged to put on disguises so that he can move around the streets, a fellow able to drive his cars only in the dead of night for fear of creating a commotion, a father forced to take his family holidays in Iceland because he might escape recognition in those parts, a person whose entire adult life has been lived in the eye of a storm.

    Throughout, he has been public property, India’s proudest possession, a young man and yet also a source of joy for millions, a sportsman and yet, too, an expression of a vast and ever-changing nation.

    Tendulkar has always retained his equanimity. He is a sportsman as well as a cricketer. By no means has it been the least of his contributions, and it explains his standing in the game.

    Not long ago, Rolling Stones’ lead guitarist Keith Richards was asked how the band had kept going for so long. ”We love it,” he explained, ”we just love playing.”

    And so it has always has been with Tendulkar. It has never been hard for him to play cricket. The hard part will be stopping. But he will take into retirement a mighty record and the knowledge that he has given enormous pleasure to followers of the game.

  89. #89 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 6:31 PM

    LOL @ Waqar Younas describing the UAE weather in the current series:

    “I lived here a couple of years and I never seen a rain

    Jayasuria wants a room, but Najaf is not giving him a room. LOL

  90. #90 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 7, 2009 - 9:47 PM

    The good thing about today’s match is its timing i.e., from my perspective. Because, it is a day match and Gauhati is in the east and the match will start early, probably 8:30 IST. So, it will start at 9:00 p.m. EST and that is fine because tomorrow is Sunday and there is no hurry.

    A few of my friends have invited me tomorrow for a brunch party at a Pakistani restaurant. On Sundays they make nihari, so it will be nihari, naan, paratha, omelet, cholay and halva puri plus doodh patti chai. 😀

    Weather wise it is still OK here. The forecast for the next whole week is good i.e., through out plus, plus temperatures and no rain. Min 6C and Max. 15C so considering it is Nov. its great. But, this season we already had the first snow on October 22nd and minimum at night went as low as -7C.

  91. #91 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 10:38 PM

    Omer

    I am the consistent and young achiever Gambhir, Javed A Khan is the matchwinning Sehwag but you have acted like Hafeez all the way through. And twisting and turning my words and putting words in my mouth is like Shoaib Malik’s meesnapun 🙂

  92. #92 by khansahab on November 7, 2009 - 11:07 PM

    Omer

    Actually that article by Roebuck was only written yesterday- after that knock of 175. I should have mentioned it, but did not find it necessary to.

  93. #93 by newguy30 on November 7, 2009 - 11:30 PM

    Omer,

    Using your parameter of batting greatness, almost all authorities on cricket acknowledges that Tendulakar is closest to batting perfection. Now, you and Javed says they are influenced by Indian money, I don’t think that’s a rational argument, some of them for sure suck up and you can make out who those are, but not everyone bows to BCCI and IPL money.

    Authorities opinion does matter, especially those who have played test cricket, I don’t know about you, but I haven’t played anything beyond school cricket, so I surely rate the opinion of ex-batting greats over that of any media person or the hard core follower (such as you, me and Javed).

    Even the late Don Bradman whom everyone considers as the best batsman ever said Tendulkar is the closest to him in batting, so that to me settles the issue. I know you would argue their opinion does not matter, but I have to tell you their opinion matters more than yours and Javed Khan.

    Also Khansaheb posted something very important about Lara’s batting, I always thought he shuffled around a lot in the crease, and this is a technical flaw, he had to use his feet and get into position to play some of the strokes he played, but Tendulkar is perfect, he stands still until he is about to play the shot, and then his body and his hands, his head everything is in perfect position, this is why when he is batting commentators and ranting and raving, especially those who know something about these shots. Again, some of them like Gavaskar are not neutral, but almost everyone has the same opinion that they all cannot be paid by BCCI. That argument does not hold well.

    So using your parameter Tendulkar is above Lara, and Lara himself said this, why would Lara say Tendulkar is better than him, he is not known to be an extremely modest person, and is not paid by IPL or BCCI, what was his motivation?

  94. #94 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 3:42 AM

    Result of today’s game between India and Australia is already clear with just 8 overs bowled, series is gone to Australia 4-2 with one more game to be played. I predicted after they won the first game that this series will go in their favor 4-3 or 5-2, so looks like it’s going to be 4 up anyway for Aussies. Like I said after Mohali ODI once you give Aussies a small crack they will rip it open and create huge opening. India had their chance in Mohali to go 3 up and shut them out, they lost it, and now Aussies are on top.

    Shewag hit one six and then bowled, so much for his match winning abilities, 6 games and still waiting for his unpredictable match winning innings 🙂

  95. #95 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 8, 2009 - 7:10 AM

    “In fact, apart from Ghilcrist, there is no-one else who has consistently walked when he gets out.”newguy

    This is just a myth that Gilchrist used to walk. I remember in one of the matches against NZ he did not and the snicko meter confirmed the nick. So, no one is saint and secondly there is no need to walk because the umpire is there.

    Gavaskar, when he made century in each innings against Pakistan in Karachi test was out in both innings and he did not walk, upon asking he said, “Why is the umpire there for? If he is not giving me out, why should I go?” So, I guess you need to respect the umpire’s decision, sometimes you get in your favour sometimes against you.

  96. #96 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 8, 2009 - 7:18 AM

    “Even the late Don Bradman whom everyone considers as the best batsman ever said Tendulkar is the closest to him in batting.” newguy

    newguy

    Don Bradman’s average is 99.94
    Tendulkar’s average is 54.58

    I guess Don Bradman failed in maths when he was in high school 😉

  97. #97 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 8, 2009 - 7:29 AM

    Omer

    I was watching the match at a friend’s place and after the innings break, I am back to my place and probably watch the Australian innings if it is interested and if it is one sided then I will hit the sack.

    When Sehwag and Gambhir got out, almost everyone was saying that today Tendulkar will not score more than 10 and it happened – whatever the reason may be but, it was based on the fact that he had scored 175 in the previous match and a big innings was not expected from him. Secondly, when wickets start falling he goes into his shell and plays very slow. Thirdly, the wicket was not flat and it was favouring swing bowling so, based on all this, it was an educated guess that he will not score much.

    Yuvraj was unlucky and Raina played that shot too early, you don’t flick in covers when you are new at the crease. Dhoni was lucky to survive there in a partnership of 48 and scored 24, he was out on a duck. So, there should be no regret that he was given out when the ball was going out. That’s hawk-eye and not umpire’s eye.

    Apart from Jadeja who played a very gritty innings, Praveen Kumar did most of the damage to the Australians and woke up the sleeping crowd. When India were 24/5 there was pin drop silence in the stadium and people have long faces, some were hiding their face behind their hands.

    I don’t think Harbhajan can do that much damage to the Australians, they have seen how the wicket is behaving and the target is not big, they don’t have to be aggressive, they need to score under 3.5 runs an over and that is very easy. BUT, cricket is a funny game you never know. It appeared that India will be out under 60 runs but they managed to score 170. So, lets see the rest of the game.

  98. #98 by khansahab on November 8, 2009 - 8:20 AM

    Omer

    With all due respect debating with you is an exercise in futility, not comparing Lara and Tendulkar in Tests, because you don’t read others’ comments properly.

    Roebuck’s opinion is not the final judgement on anything but neither is yours- these are just opinions, and I did not post that article to say it was a final judgement, but to say it is an opinion. So, please consider your views as opinions too if you want to consider someone else’s view as an opinion.

    By the way that article was not from Cricinfo- it was from some Australian magazine.

  99. #99 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 1:49 PM

    Omer,

    I will say just one last thing on this Tendulkar vs. Lara discussion and then I’ll move on from this discussion for good.

    Like I have said so many times before there is very little to chose between Tendulkar and Lara. They have different styles of batting, but in terms of achievements and batting greatness there is very little. I do not want to insult Lara by keep on harping about how much better Tendulkar is, to me Lara has done more than enough to not be insulted like that, same goes for Tendulkar, I do not want to insult him either. Ian Chappel wrote this about these two yesterday:

    There will be nit-pickers who say, “There he goes again. Tendulkar succeeds but India fails to claim victory. That’s the difference between him and Lara.” The difference appears to be that Lara had a ruthless streak when it came to winning the match, while for Tendulkar one more risk is never too many.

    That summarizes my thoughts on these two as well, there is always an element of risk in Tendulkar’s batting, a vulnerability that you could sense, that he could be out any time. In fact this element is there with all Indian batsmen, baring Gavaskar and Dravid. While for Lara he had a ruthless streak to him, when he is set and determined he will go on to meet his goal, whether it is breaking the world record, or winning a match.

    This is the difference between the two, case in point, two matches, Tendulkar took the risky paddle shot with India needing only 19 runs off 18 balls in Hyderabad, he need to take that and instead play a less risky shot, singles and get closer, but chose to play a risky shot. Second instance, Chennai ’99 against Pakistan, Tendulkar is playing so well and India need only 22 runs, but he chose a risky shot against Saqlain, he wanted to impose himself and finish the match in style, there was no need, he should have played percentage cricket and made sure match is won, but he took risk instead and India lost. So this is how he plays and that is why he could not achieve the impossible things that are well within his grasp.

    If he had played percentage cricket, he would have won these matches, and the nit pickers would have to admit his greatness, but his game is different from Lara’s, we just have to accept as it is. I have been disappointed in the early years with Tendulkar for this, but I have now accepted his game, and I have moved on.

    Javed,

    Surely you and Omer are better than Bradman in maths, but he must be greater than you in cricket, that is why he is Bradman and you are who you are 😉 Of course you understood what I meant, in case you need explanation Bradman meant Tendulkar’s batting style reminds him of himself. If you do want to compare stats then of course Tendulkar’s are better than Lara’s, so he is not as great as Bradman but surely greater than Lara, right? Don’t need an answer for that 😉

  100. #100 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 2:04 PM

    Result of yesterday’s game was clear within first 30 mins, I posted this in #142, even after they made 170 my opinion was not going to change, but I slept much before that and I knew the outcome. If they had my some mircle innings from Dhoni or Jadeja, impossible, but if they did get to 230 odd then may be there was a chance. But I have seen enough of India’s games to know what will happen even at this point. Like Javed Khan says there were too many BUTTS and very less if’s 🙂

    Johnson is a swing bowler, and he needs help from conditions, yesterday first 30 mins were perfect for him, this is why he destroyed India’s top, and this is why Johnson was ICC player of year last year, when there is swing in the air he can be lethal, none of the other games had similar conditions and this is why Sehwag could go after Johnson, there was no way Sehwag was going to do that yesterday.

    Indian players are notorious for falling like pins when there is something in the pitch for bowlers and they did that yesterday again, in fact Dhoni did a foolish thing to bat first, had they bowled Praveen and Nehra would have found swing and put Australia under pressure, they could have been looking at 200 odd to chase, but with Indian batting the way it is they still would have lost, one day they will threaten to chase 300 another day they will crumble. Either way they lose 😉

    So, this series puts in perspective this Indian teams true standing, they are no where near #1, they are possibly not even #2, may be 2.5 🙂

  101. #101 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 3:53 PM

    Omer,

    I am going to break my decision not to reply anything on this Lara/Tendulkar topic just one last time because I just looked at the matches you linked.

    On the innings that Lara played on winning causes against Australia, look who is bowling, a certain CEL Ambrose and CA Walsh, two of the very best fast bowlers of all time. In fact I consider Ambrose second best to Malcom Marshal as finest of all fast bowlers that I have ever seen in the last 25 years of my following cricket.

    The matches that you say Lara won are as much won by Ambrose and Walsh, all of those matches one of them have a five for in either of the opposition innings.

    India never had a bowler with half the capability of Ambrose or Walsh, in fact even Wasim and Waqar were not as lethal as these two, the W’s had reverse swing to their kit so they were close, but Ambrose could scare the best of them with his bounce, pace and accuracy, he could just run through the best batting line ups in an hour. So, Lara’s wins were backed up these bowlers.

    Anyhow, this discussion is moot, Lara sure is great, he had a huge ego and he played big. Tendulkar looks more mortal in Test cricket by that standard.

  102. #102 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 5:18 PM

    So taking stock of India/Australia series we can see that why Australia won it, they performed as a team collectively and did not depend on one individual, they had some key performers in each game, but it was mostly more than one key performer instead of the one star performer. India, on the other hand, had one or two star performers in some of the games, and as a team no collective contribution, except the one game in Delhi that they won. Even in that game their top order batting wobbled. Australia was more consistent in batting without having super strong performances.

    For instance, Watson, Ponting, and Hussey contributed consistently with the bat, it is interesting to note that Australia had only one century in the series, that of Marsh and that too not a big hundred, they have a series of 50s and 40s. White, Marsh, Voges all chipped in in key matches. India, on the other hand had one big performance from Dhoni and Tendulkar, couple of half centuries from Gambhir, one fifty from Youvraj, and a couple of 30s and 40s from Sehwag. Collectively the batting did not click.

    In fact, what Dhoni is hiding is Youvraj’s failure in the middle order in all matches except one in Delhi where he and Dhoni won the match. Youvraj being Dhoni’s friend is getting a free pass in the team, he will perform in one game and get Dhoni’s praise then rest of the games he will go along for the ride. Bowling was ok in most matches except one were they gave away 350. Fielding of course was the greatest difference between the two teams.

    Overall, India has too many free loaders and superstars who are not pushed for their place if they don’t perform consistently, where as Australia is a team where players are waiting outside looking for opportunity to perform, if one player does not perform consistently then he knows he is a goner in the next series. This is why players like Watson, Marsh, White, Hussey etc are constantly on their toes, same goes for bowlers too, even Mitchel Johnson and Brett Lee cannot be guaranteed of their places, they have to come in and perform well, if not they are gone.

    This is why Australia is still #1 team to beat, and why teams like India will never get there. Once a player gets some stature he will not be fired unless he goes on a run of 3-4 series without runs. Even then he can play one game big in a series and retain his place. Imagine player like Hussey is Indian, he will never be threatened for his place, and all he needs is a big hundred every now and then.

    Selection policy has to be that every player regardless of who they are will be out of next series if they do not perform consistently. Every player should be given a chance of only 3 matches to perform well, if he doesn’t then drop him and chose another player, if he doesn’t perform then drop him and chose another, this is what Australia does. The results are there to be seen.

    But, Indians are happy with their heros personal records, soon Sri Lanka will be here and most likely our flat pitch heros will belt Sri Lankans out to Colombo for sixes. Sri Lankans not being as good as Australians in grabbing catches and throwing down stumps will let them escape with a few wins, enough to win the series. Everything will be forgotten. Then IPL will start next season and everyone will forget everything else.

    Such is the fickle nature of Indian cricket. It’s pathetic that in a country where Cricket is the only professional sport that they are seriously in contention for something, they cannot still win anything major. Problem lies within themselves though, so long as public is happy with their heroes for their marginal performances and not demanding best in class, they will continue to be like this.

    Same can be said of Pakistan cricket, but at least in Pakistan’s case, one can find so many other excuses like political instability at home, not having enough funds, not having any international cricket in the country, nor having played with major teams at home for long periods, and the usual regional politics in cricket administration and selection policy. India has none of the other things to complain about except regional politics.

  103. #103 by khansahab on November 8, 2009 - 7:42 PM

    Omer

    What you are saying is wrong and ill conceived because the matches in which Tendulkar made high scores, Kumble did not bowl well on broken 4th and 5th day pitches.

    Lara the match winner- Lara has made 34 Test centuries and in those, West Indies has won 8 times when he made a century, drawn 12 times and lost 14 times.

    Tendulkar has made 42 Test centuries, India has won 16 times, drawn 17 times and lost 9 times when he has made a century.

    Lara has made 17 centuries at home and 17 away. Tendulkar has made 18 at home and 24 away.

    Lara has played 65 Tests at home and 66 away, Tendulkar has played 69 at home and 90 away. So you are not correct by stating that “India plays in India” because Tendulkar has played about a 1/3rd more matches away than home, so I am sorry but your argument of Kumble and Harbhajan making hay on broken Indian pitches when Tendulkar has been playing, does not hold much ground.

    Omer, honestly you will not get anywhere with this. If you like Lara more than Tendulkar, just say that instead of coming up with strange and nonsensical theories to say who is better. Why can’t you just accept they are both great like how Varun and Newguy are willing to accept?

    Having Walsh and Ambrose on your side is a bigger advantage than having Kumble and Harbhajan. Fast bowlers pick up wickets more quickly than spinners and Ambrose and Walsh were extremely economical too. Walsh and Ambrose BOTH had better bowling averages AND strike rates than BOTH Kumble and Harbhajan.

  104. #104 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 8, 2009 - 8:07 PM

    newguy

    If Tendulkar’s batting style is reminds Bradman of himself then Bradman’s average should have been 50% less of what he possess. Anyways, lets not bring Bradman in this discussion.

    After India losing the series, it is Pakistan’s turn. The way they played the second ODI, I don’t see they will win the series especially if NZ wins the toss again they are going to dominate. Besides, this Pakistan team has not won any series so far in the past few years except for winning the T20 WC in England and that too mainly because of Afridi, otherwise Younus Khan is simply lucky to be the captain of that team. And, the team is very unlucky that he is still captain for the ODI as well as for the test matches.

    He said, he will play even at the age of 60, right now he is 30 and he can’t play @ the age of 60 he would be in some mental asylum.

  105. #105 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 8, 2009 - 8:10 PM

    I am repeating what I wrote earlier:

    “I wonder if anyone saw the second four that Ponting scored? The first ball he faced in the innings was from Munaf Patel and, he played straight for a 4. But, the second four was amazing, he simply opened the face of the bat and blocked the ball, did not even push it, but it was timed so well that it raced for a four between point and cover.”

  106. #106 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 8:26 PM

    Javed,

    You said:
    If Tendulkar’s batting style is reminds Bradman of himself then Bradman’s average should have been 50% less of what he possess. Anyways, lets not bring Bradman in this discussion.

    Why? batting style is one thing but averages can be impacted by other factors. So Bradman felt Tendulkar’s style is like his own, but you think Bradman should not have felt like that, I am amused by that 😉 Anyhow, let’s leave this where it is.

    I saw the shot played by Ponting, it was a good shot, good timing.

  107. #107 by khansahab on November 8, 2009 - 8:59 PM

    Omer

    Actually, if you notice I haven’t been “disappearing”. I have a job and no disrespect to you, my spare time has to be expended to do other things too other than arguing with those who can’t even be bothered to read others’ comments properly (“Laxman is a mediocre player”).

    Omer, it is pathetic that someone intelligent like you thinks that if I say we should stop arguing about something, you interpret it as I don’t have a response. Actually, I have felt like countering your arguments many times but I have considered you as a friend, because you are, and I don’t want to use harsh words or make you look stupid. So please, don’t interpret my good nature as a weakness in my reasoning or intelligence. In the same way sometimes I have felt disappointed with things Javed A Khan and Awas have said, but I have not responded to them because I don’t want to appear as possibly being disrespectful. There is a relationship of love and trust amongst the 3 of us, and that relationship has to be preserved. In the same way I am sure they have chosen not to respond to me sternly at times when I have provoked them, just to be soft and cool about the whole thing.

    LOL at you saying I don’t have a response, actually you are the one who does not have a response because your statements keep on appearing more bizarre.

    Tendulkar has a better record than Lara against Bangladesh, but Lara has a better record against Zimbabwe. Lara also averages 9 more against New Zealand than Tendulkar does. So, again what you have said is a figment of your imagination that has little connection with reality, as most of your statements. It seems from this that Lara is a bigger minnow basher than Tendulkar.

    Earlier, I did not support Newguy by agreeing with him about the difference between your comments and Javed A Khan’s comments. The difference is that Javed A Khan thinks about the repercussions of what he is saying and whether what he says is reconcilable with anything he has said earlier, whereas you get very hyped up and just type, without realising how it would make you appear.

    Tendulkar has actually won a lot of matches- 16 victories and he has a higher match winning ratio of centuries to matches won than Lara. So, if that does not refute the basis of your fictitious and whimsical arguments, I don’t know what that does. Now you are cleverly trying to hide this by saying “Indian bowlers have won many matches,” but my dear, those were Tendulkar’s stats and not the stats of Indian bowlers, so please say the right thing and admit HE has won many matches.

    Everything that you have said, from flat pitches, to performance home and away, to Lara’s and Inzamam’s match winning abilities, to India playing in India, to minnow bashing, to Srinath and Prasad’s greatness etc, has been successfully refuted by me. The reason why I have been able to do that is because you just form your own opinions based on your biases, and you don’t think about the possibility of being refuted. Here I am not using the word “bias” in a bitter way, as in, an anti-Indian bias, but in a softer way, as in a “natural inclination” way. You just like Lara’s and Sehwag’s style of playing more, but you are not limiting that to just that, you are using statistics, forming theories, talking about nonsensical things, misreading my comments, skim reading my comments, thinking foul and negative like if I don’t respond to you about something it means I have chickened out etc.

    All you need to do is accept that there are very good grounds for saying Tendulkar is better than Lara. If you don’t agree to that, that is fine. I have told you earlier that it is possible Lara is a better Test batsman than Tendulkar- I just feel overall Tendulkar is a more skilled and perfect player, and if I am asked who is the best batsman, I would answer it saying Tendulkar’s name. Because I am looking at “completeness” to answer that correctly, and holistically Tendulkar in my view is more skilled and able.

  108. #108 by khansahab on November 8, 2009 - 9:34 PM

    Omer

    We spoke about who is better, I provided statistics to say it was Tendulkar. You refuted, and I accepted with you that statistics don’t provide the whole picture.

    But then, when I spoke about the number of centuries, you said class and greatness can be seen from small scores, too and that big centuries or lots of centuries don’t mean much. You said that, and yet you keep bringing this issue of Lara’s 400 not out or 500 not out or whatever.

    You keep saying domestic performance does not matter, yet that 500 was made in a domestic (county) match.

    Despite being anti-stats you kept mentioning Tendulkar’s record in those matches when McGrath was not playing, or Tendulkar’s average against Australia in general. So why turn to stats if you don’t like them? This just shows that you are desperate and willing to rely on something you have previously rejected.

    There are dozens of instances like these when you have contradicted yourself and shown signs of desperation, but I have not “exposed” you the way you tried to say rubbish like I chicken out when I have no response.

    Again, if the question is about who is a better team player, a better long-innings player, even perhaps a better pressure player- if the questions are more SPECIFIC like these, I might be inclined to say Lara. But if the question is holistic to say, who is simply “better” (i.e taking into account everything) I would say Tendulkar.

    You mention to Newguy about whom Lara had to assist him, and Lara had Walsh and Ambrose who are 2 giants of West Indian cricket. If you look at the pre 2000 era when Tendulkar was at his best, he also did not have a lot of support from others; the best player after him was Kumble, but he was not as dangerous as Walsh and Ambrose. You are thinking in terms of post 2000 when Ganguly and Dravid became great players, Sehwag came, Harbhajan became renowned, and now Gambhir has come and helped India reach enviable heights. The Tendulkar of pre 2000 had no competitor except Lara and as a team India was quite similar in status as West Indies. After Walsh, Ambrose and Lara, West Indies has plummeted whereas India has just grown from strength to strength after the exit of the RELATIVELY mediocre Manjrekar, Mongia, Sidhu, Srinath, Prasad etc

  109. #109 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 11:09 PM

    Omer,

    Khansaheb replied to you on who Lara had for support as well as the issue of bowling quality in numerous posts, so I don’t think I need to post separately. I will just say one thing though, there is a huge difference between a fast bowler capable of running through a top order lineup and a first rate spinner capable of doing that, batsmen actually fear such fast bowlers, fear about bodily injury, no batsman however great is comfortable facing the great fast bowler, where as a spinner however great he is may make you look silly as you fumble around, but they won’t make you uncomfortable like the fast bowler. Also a fast bowler can run through a batting line up much faster than a spinner when he is on a rampage. Just watch Ambrose’s spell of 7/1 against Australia in Perth test. You know what I mean.

    So in this regard, even though Lara did not have batting support, all he needed was put up a decent score on board, and the fast bowlers will defend anything. After Walsh and Ambrose retired this is different story, I don’t think Lara won many matches too after that, I may be wrong, if so I would like to see the stats.

    You keep bringing up the 400 not out, it was made on a flat pitch and against a mediocre English attack. Lara was also a very selfish player, to boost his ego and his pursuit of world record he would put teams interest apart. Have you seen how he celebrates after reclaiming the world record and then on reaching 400, it’s all about him. The match ended up in a dull draw after that, so kept on batting until he reached 400 putting team interest aide. Also Lara was captain of WI and he did whatever pleased him, so if he wanted 400 he went on without declaring. There was at least one match where Tendulkar was denied a double hundred when Dravid who was captain declared the innings, I think he was on 195 or so, and Tendulkar could have made the 200 and still it would not have affected the match, imagine Lara is on 195 and someone else is captain what would have been the scene. So, there are obvious flaws with Lara, like you said he was single minded in pursuit of big innings and he wanted to win all by himself, for him team came second, you say these are good qualities, I would say these are flaws, that is where the difference in opinion is.

  110. #110 by khansahab on November 8, 2009 - 11:15 PM

    Omer

    I am least bothered about being compared with Gambhir (especially since I would see it as a big compliment- ICC Player of the Year, highest civilian awards, great at playing the new ball, coming out of crease to hit fast bowlers, averaging 77 away from home, big reason why India has been an almost unbeatable Test side for the past 2 years etc). You can compare me with any cricketer, that is fine but saying things like, I disappear when I don’t have a response to quite personal. Don’t you think- in slightly harsher words you are calling someone a chicken, if you know what I mean. That is fairly offensive, especially since that is not the reason why I said this debate should be ended. It is when you use language like that, when you know things are getting out of hand and a “debate” becomes more like a personal event or a fight.

    I said I want to end this debate because I wanted that to prompt you to end it too, but since you kept carrying on and made some references to me, I decided I should continue too.

    Look, this talk of “winning matches” or “epics” is again focusing on your “barometer” (as you state it). I told you we see things differently- winning matches and creating “epics” is one part of batting.

    Maybe an example would make things easier- let us imagine we are talking about who is the best lawyer (or in your case, mathematician although I know very little about what actuaries, mathematicians or economists do). The skills that you need to be a lawyer are, good communication, good command of the English language, good drafting skills, creativity, confidence, good interpersonal skills, ability to handle pressure and deadlines, good teamwork skills, physical and mental fitness).

    Now you can say that, say a lawyer who has the gift of the gab, can be an excellent lawyer, or someone who can impress at court can be an excellent lawyer. Or someone who does not fret under pressure can be a good lawyer, or someone who has a good success rate at court can be a good lawyer.

    What I am trying to say is that Tendulkar does the basics better than Lara- he is a better all round lawyer. Now Lara may be a better at court, or better at meeting deadlines or handling pressure, or whatever, but for the sake of completeness, Tendulkar is better.

    To me, watching Tendulkar blast a bouncer outside off to midwicket for a six is an indication of genius, more than helping to win a match- maybe because matches are won by help from other team members. That is why I will not consider your barometer and list Tendulkar’s 400s (he hasn’t made any!) and off the top of my head I can’t remember his match winning innings (although India has won 16 Tests when he has made a century, so he must be having some match winning knocks to his credit), but that is because I don’t consider the ability to win matches as the sole or leading criterion to judge who is the best.

    Tendulkar can hit the most impossible shot by simple, basic footwork, timing, placement, shot selection and he can do that better than Lara. He can time and place the ball very well despite being in an unconventional position as he is playing the shot. He has pioneered some shots, and others he has played more effectively than anyone else. He has faced so many injuries, so much criticism, the pressure of being considered a God and being expected to hit a century every match- he has overcome all that and even now, when he is 36 and when many people wonder whether he should take up retirement, he hit 175 in 141 balls. I accept Australia is not the side it used to be, but if you watch the highlights you will see some exceptional batting.

    For all these reasons I consider him the best. In fact in front of all these reasons, how many matches he has won or whatever seems trivial. Again, let me repeat that we are debating who the better batsman is, not the better team player or match winner or whatever- even though his ratio of century to matches won is much higher than Lara’s. Even though this knock of 175 was not made in a Test, the fact that a 36 year old opener playing one of the toughest sides in the world (who are admittedly not as tough as they used to be), shows he is a genius. You know as well as I do Lara faded when he reached 35- Tendulkar keeps playing excellent knocks which is why he is still playing. The moment he knows he is not good enough, he will retire. The only thing is, he is a genius and he will still go on for some time.

    As I said I am analysing holistically, and this is one more reason to say Tendulkar is better than Lara- he is still playing so well at 36 whereas Lara lost his touch completely and was almost forced to retire.

  111. #111 by newguy30 on November 8, 2009 - 11:24 PM

    Omer,

    I would prefer a score of 250 in test if I have two fast bowlers capable of running through opposition and getting them out cheaper than that, as opposed to a score of 400 with two spinners capable of doing same. The difference is with fast bowling if two of them get into a rhythm they can get opposition out in real quick time, watch what Ambrose and Walsh did to England in Barbados when all they needed to win in 4th innings was 150 odd, they were all out for 40 or 50 runs, Ambrose and Walsh just ripped them apart. There are several test matches likes this when Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, would run through teams even with small scores to defend. Now, imagine defending a score of 150 in 4th innings with Kumble, and Harbhajan, even on a spin friendly pitch, it’s really not the same.

    But, sure in 2000s Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly came to support Tendular in batting, but also Kumble, Harbhajan, and of late Zaheer Khan performed with the ball. If you look at some of the famous victories India had overseas like test win in South Africa, and West Indies, it was fast bowlers who did that, Sreesanth won test in SA with a 5 wicket haul, he ran through the SA batting line up in first innings. Same in WI too. Rahul Dravid was key performer with bat in some of those matches. So, yes, you cannot overlook the contribution of Dravid and Laxman. But you cannot also overlook the contribution of fast bowlers in some of those victories. Zaheer Khan won the test in England in 2007 with a 5 wicket haul.

    Overall India became a good test team in 2000s while WI became a mediocre team, not because of batsmen, but because their long line of fast bowlers dried out after the retirement of Walsh and Ambrose. In batting Shivnaraine Chanderpaul has been excellent in the last few years of Lara’s career, so he had support, but his batting could not win many matches after the great fast bowlers retired.

    So, in the end, Test matches are won by bowlers, batsmen merely set them up with a defendable score, for the great bowlers any score above 150 is defendable though.

    WI became a mediocre team

  112. #112 by khansahab on November 8, 2009 - 11:32 PM

    Newguy

    You know they say cricket is a batsman’s game, which is why batsman kind of steal the show when matches are won. Even though there is another saying that matches are won by bowlers. Look at how the feats of Kaneria, Shoaib Akhtar, Sami etc helped Inzamam when the latter was at his peak and they were also at THEIR peak. Yet, they got little credit compared to Inzamam.

    Similarly, Lara has received undeniable assistance from Walsh and Ambrose, but you don’t tend to think of it that way. In fact, Dravid and Laxman have received a lot of assistance from Harbhajan and Kumble being at their peak.

    1 man out of 11 can rarely ever win a match single handedly- only someone like Sehwag is capable of doing that, and that also once every 75 matches or something.

  113. #113 by Pawan on November 9, 2009 - 12:39 AM

    Folks

    It is sad to see India lose the last all-so-important game. They just blew it away. I believe it isn’t easy being an Indian supporter, you never know when these fools will let you down and big time too.

    Losing against a third-rate Australian team is such a shame for the millionaires. It was almost like a David vs. Goliath match. Anyways, good that the bets side won the series. India didn’t deserve to win. Period.

  114. #114 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 1:19 AM

    Omer,

    You should look at this series between India and Australia to find answers to some of your questions. I don’t think you can find a more stronger Australian side than this, this is Steve Waugh’s all conquering Australians on a run of 16 test match wins. McGrath, Warne, Gillespie, Ponting, Langer, Waugh, Hayden, Gilchrist, the whole kitchen sink thrown in.

    This is the famous Kolkata test that everyone known Laxman is famous for turning around. But to further the point that Khansaheb and I have been making about bowlers winning matches, let’s look at Australia second innings.

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63920.html

    Australia is chasing 384 to win in 4th innings, Harbhajan took 6/73, and Tendulkar took 3/31 to win the test. Harbhajan took 7 wickets in first innings too, for a match haul of 13 wickets. But let’s come back to Tendulkar’s 3/31 in the second innings, he did not contribute with bat in this match, but look how he contributed to team cause with this 3 wickets, that too of Mathew Hayden, Adam Gilchrist, and Shane Warne. This aspect of Tendulkar as a cricketer is often overlooked, he finds a way to contribute to the team cause.

    Coming back to Laxman, this test is considered his test, but it’s unfair to Harbhajan after taking 13 wickets in the match and leading team to win to call it Laxman’s match.

    Now let’s look at the series decider, this match in Chennai:

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63921.html

    Once again Tendulkar did not contribute with bat very much, others did, but let’s look at Harbhajan, he had 15 wickets in this test, 7 in first innings and 8 in second. So it’s again Harbhajan winning the test.

    This is what you need to look at in Lara’s innings, there is a bowler who deserves equal praise.

    Let’s now look at first test that India lost:

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63919.html

    Who is the top scorer in both innings? Tendulkar, there is no one with another half century in either innings, Tendulkar top score in both innings by a wide margin. So, India lose this test, Tendulkar scored, others did not, and bowlers did not do enough. People find fault is on Tendulkar, is that his fault? He has done everything by being top scorer when everyone else failed, yet he gets the blame. This is totally unfair.

  115. #115 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 1:27 AM

    Omer,

    Correction, in the series decider in Chennai on the 2001 test series against Australia, Tendulkar scored 126 in the first innings, so using the parameter you are using Tendulkar won this test, that too against McGrath and Warne, and the most toughest Australian team in this decade. But is it fair to Harbhajan, after taking 15 wickets, it was very much his match too.

    So, the point is, using the match winning or losing criteria is the wrong criteria for batting greatness, you have to look at Khansahab’s criteria, of the quality of shots, technique, so on.

  116. #116 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 4:03 AM

    newguy

    If Tendulkar’s batting style was like Don Bradman’s then Tendulkar’s average would have and should have been 99.98 and more. That’s my only observation. Whatever the old man may have said, and when and why is best known to him but, his word cannot be taken for granted when there is such a disparity in the strike rate.

  117. #117 by Varun Suri on November 9, 2009 - 6:05 AM

    If Tendulkar’s batting style was like Don Bradman’s then Tendulkar’s average would have and should have been 99.98 and more. That’s my only observation….

    Well, now the ol’ man is dead already so we cannot cross question him and verify that did he really believe that Tendulkar’s batting style is closest to him but still i do not see the connection between Strike Rate and Batting Style ?

    Your argument sounds a bit amateurish when you forget to consider/bring in so many of the other factors when you want to compare Bradman with Tendulkar like the pitches, the amount of matches, the opposition for e.g. Bradman played most of his matches against England, and most importantly the kind of pressure someone like Tendulkar is when he’s out in the middle. It’s quite easy to type on the keyboard at home but neither you nor me can ever find out the kind of pressure Sachin is who has been playing since when he was 16 Years old.

  118. #118 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 1:06 PM

    Another 300 plus is expected from New Zealand
    Another futile run chase is expected from Pakistan

    For Pakistan, Bredon McCullum is unstoppable and, if Taylor stays till the 45th over he is definitely going to destroy the bowling attack. With openers like Salman Butt & Khalid Latif and one down Drama Khan, Pakistan is not likely to win this match and the series is lost for sure, unless miracle happens.

  119. #119 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 1:31 PM

    Omer,

    It is very clear that we are talking past each other at this point, you have disregarded many of my comments, such as:

    1. Lara made 400 not out on a flat pitch against a weak bowling attack
    2. He was selfish about making these big scores
    3. Being the captain he could do whatever he pleased without worrying about team interests
    4. WI being a team not under the media radar like India is so Lara can do these things and not get criticized.
    5. Lara hasn’t won many matches after Ambrose and Walsh retired.

    But you haven’t responded to any of it, instead you are re-posting the Lara 400, I have see the highlights, like I said it was made on a flat pitch against a weak bowling attack and the match ended in a dull draw. Lara was captain and all he cared for is his individual record.

    Anyhow, let’s just agree to disagree and move on.

  120. #120 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 1:34 PM

    NZ will not get to 300 today, McCullum gone and Ross Taylor is the only batsman left who can play an aggressive innings, it is unlikely that Taylor would make a huge score, he usually disappoints after promising a big score.

    If they get around 250 then Pakistan surely has chance of chasing this down, there is nothing in the pitch for bowlers and if one or two batsmen apply themselves 270-280 is gettable.

  121. #121 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 1:39 PM

    Just as I finished typing, Taylor is out, just like I said he did not score big. NZ has a long tail, it is unlikely they will get anywhere near 270-280, if they manage to play the remaining 11 overs they may get to 250, even that is difficult, I predict a score of 230-240 at the most.

  122. #122 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 1:41 PM

    Hold on newguy

    You are calling Lara a selfish player an authoritarian captain who could do anything to please himself without about the team interest?

    At least Lara never bothered about his own game and took the mantle to lead his team, whereas Tendulkar couldn’t take the pressure of captaincy and declined it whenever it was offered and he did backseat mothering with Ganguly and Dravid and he does the same with Dhoni now i.e., because he is regarded so high, no one can say anything to him.

    If the wicket was flat and the match was not likely to end with a result, what is wrong for Lara to go for his record? If Tendulkar had the same opportunity he would have done that even more, remember when Dravid declared in Multan, Tendulkar was very, very upset with that decision and we read so many stories about Sachin Bhai getting angry and did not talk to any player for 2 days and no one had the courage to go near him.

  123. #123 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 1:44 PM

    New Zealand is suddenly collapsing, we see a slide here 190/6. Still there is Vettori and Oram and ten more overs to go, anything can happen and a score under 250 can be chased successfully, unless Pakistan caves in.

  124. #124 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 1:49 PM

    Vettori gone, THREE lbw’s in a row? In each over there is an lbw, who is the umpire? There is one Pakistani and one Australian and one of them gave 2 lbws. Or, were they really out?

  125. #125 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 1:53 PM

    Very tight, accurate and economical bowling by Ajmal and Afridi. Ajmal got yet another lbw of Oram now, whats happening? Are they really playing cricket or soccer? How come 4 lbws in a row?

  126. #126 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 1:55 PM

    It seems like New Zealand are in a hurry to leave Abu Dhabi and go to Dubai for shopping and to relax on the beaches of Jumeirah where they will have a more at home sort of feeling……. bikinis.

  127. #127 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 2:01 PM

    Jacob Oram was such a good & aggressive sort of player who could destroy the opposition with his big hitting and good bowling, but something happened to him and he is no more the same person. He looks very subdued and demoralized and very mediocre. It this is his form, he needs rest. I reckon bowlers used to dread bowling at him when he used to smash every single ball out of the ground.

    199 for 9 now in 44 overs, will they make 200? It is Ajmal’s last over and a chance to take his first 5 wickets haul in ODI.

  128. #128 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 2:10 PM

    Javed,

    We are not comparing Tendulkar as a captain vs. Lara, let’s not go into it. I only brought Lara’s stature as captain to point out he could do things like that, especially the 400 not out where he went about that test for the record, he wanted to take the record back from Mathew Hayden who broke his previous record, so he set his mind and went about. It is you who bring up the playing to team argument against Tendulkar, how can you then say it is OK when Lara does it. Every time Tendulkar gets stuck on 90s you criticize him for playing for records, same way you should criticize Lara for playing for the record and not trying to win the test in this instance.

  129. #129 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 2:11 PM

    It is very strange to see Umar Gul’s ineffectiveness in the ODI format, he just gave away 9 runs bowling to the tail-enders i.e., the last pair of NZ batting line up Bond and Southee!

    I don’t understand how a bowler like him who could prove to be so effective with his deadly yorkers in T20 format could be a mediocre bowler in a 50 over format?

    Finally it is over NZ all out for 210 and Aamer took the final wicket.

    It is innings break and I am going to take a break too.

  130. #130 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 2:17 PM

    LOL @ newguy

    When you compare a player with someone don’t compare him in bits and bobs but, as a whole person, a complete player and that also includes captaincy. It was you who raised Lara’s captaincy as selfish and authoritarian hence, I reminded you that Tendulkar was offered captaincy umpteenth time and he, after experiencing that he is not a captain’s material decided not to take that job and preferred backseat mothering.

    You say if Lara set his mind to achieve 400 he made it, so who stopped Sachin from setting his mind? Why did he not score a single 3 hundred? At least half a dozen or more players may have scored 300 plus in test cricket. It means Tendulkar cannot set his mind for achieving a big target in one game. That is because his each milestone i.e., 50, 100, 150 and 200 exhausts him and he could not go beyond that to make 300. So, who is mentally more strong? 😀

    take care

  131. #131 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 2:29 PM

    Javed,

    Tendulkar was never captain material, his batting suffered, and team failed, you will not get a debate from me on this, we are not discussing a whole here, we are discussing who is the best batsman.

    I still did not get an answer from you on why it is OK for Lara to play for records, as he did for his 400 while Tendulkar cannot, instead you go into Tendulkar’s lack of ability to do so.

    Like I said to Omer we are simply talking past each other, we simply have to agree to disagree on this topic and move on.

  132. #132 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 2:36 PM

    Javed,

    One more thing, if you want to compare them in whole, then Tendulkar has 44 Test wickets, and 154 ODI wickets, along with 17,000 ODI runs, and 87 international hundreds, while Lara has 53 international hundreds.

    Besides, it is Omer and you who are taking bits and bogs by comparing who is a better Test player vs. who is a better ODI player. So if you compare them both as whole then Tendulkar clearly stads heads and shoulders above Lara.

  133. #133 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 3:19 PM

    newguy

    first of all I never said that Lara played for a record, I only responded to your claim that Lara played on a flat wicket where the match was destined to be draw and he went for a record to make 400. I said, why does it bother you if Lara plays for a record? I may have said it in different words but, this is exactly want I want to say. Secondly, you were nailing Lara down for being the captain and using authority to do things at will. A captain has always more responsibility than others because he is the one who gets the flak and Tendulkar by any means was not interested in getting flak for not being a good leader, he knew that he can fire his guns from someone else’s shoulder and that suits him so he decided not to be a captain.

    When India loses 5 out of 10 times or draw 4 out of 10 times it is the captain who gets the criticism because, Tendulkar as a batsman has done his job but, the captain (whoever he may be) did not use his resources well. You (newguy) just did that by saying the match in which Lara scored 400 was a dull boring draw. A draw is always dull and boring. Dig out the records and see how many times India has drawn test matches and how many times West Indies have drawn matches. Not, today’s West Indies, but The Mighty West Indies.

  134. #134 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 9, 2009 - 3:26 PM

    Salman Butt’s negativity is highly contagious, he is scoring at a strike rate of 52, whereas, Khalid Latif’s strike rate is 145 and now Butt is facing more and blocking the balls, not even taking singles to give Latif a chance to score fast, as Latif after a difficult chance let down by McCullum struck 3 consecutive fours and he faced only 11 balls whereas Butt has faced 25 balls. After Butt playing a maiden over Latif will be under pressure. Because, whenever there is a maiden over it is a moral victory for the bowler and the momentum is effected. If Butt cannot play fast, he should be kicked out of the team.

  135. #135 by Awas on November 9, 2009 - 3:43 PM

    Javed

    It looks like Butt is digging his heels and playing a test match or more correctly playing selfishly for himself. How difficult can it be to keep rotating the strike with ones and twos? If a couple of batsmen like him go into a shell then this modest target can also become difficult to achieve.

    Latif is out now. Looks like it’s a day of LBW decisions.

    On Tendulkar v. Lara debate it’s becoming a bit pointless now. They are both great players in their own right. At the end of it all it boils down to who is your favourite. We all have our favourites as mine all time favourite is Viv Richards. It would be pertinent to remind our Indian friends that Tendulkar is admired by many all over Pakistan including many in Pak team just as the likes of Akram and Imran are admired in India. So let’s leave it to that.

  136. #136 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 4:22 PM

    Javed,

    “first of all I never said that Lara played for a record, I only responded to your claim that Lara played on a flat wicket where the match was destined to be draw and he went for a record to make 400. I said, why does it bother you if Lara plays for a record? I may have said it in different words but, this is exactly want I want to say.

    You said math was destined for a draw, and what is wrong in going for the record. It is clear from this comment that you have not followed that match and the series. Here is the scorecard from that match:

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64080.html

    How can you say the match is destined for a draw if you are batting first, as WI did in this test? No match is ever destined for a draw, unless you are talking day 5 and 4th innings is still not on, or whether is not permitting. It is all up to the teams to make it out into a winning position.

    Here WI is batting first, and Lara in one down, is comes to bat in the 14th over of Day 1, ends the day on 86 not out, that is all he could manage. WI is 208/2 end of Day 1. On Day 2 WI is 595/5 and Lara is on 313 not out, he made 227 on Day 2, far better than his first day.

    In this series WI is already lost, now it is up to them to make up for it and win at least one match. Most teams will look to declare at 595 on day 2, and push for a win. If you continue batting into 3rd day in a 1st innings then that is sure recipe for draw, but this is what Lara did, he saw he now has an opportunity to go for record, he also had an opportunity to go for a win and salvage some prestige for his team, but he does not, instead he went to get the record after lunch on 3rd day and then declare at 700 plus.

    2 and half days gone, finishing 3 innings in remaining 2 and half days is nearly impossible, all because Lara batted slowly on Day 1, then he went for record on Day 3 instead of pushing for a win.

    Engald out for 285 in first innnigs and follow on, so the argument WI had weak bowling is out of question, second innings England make 422 and manage draw, there is not enough time left, and WI gave up already knowing that.

    Now, tell me, ask yourself honestly if Tendulkar did that will you not skewer him for that? I have been honest in all these discussions, I have admitted on things that I have agree with my full conscious. I am only asking you do the same.

  137. #137 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 4:28 PM

    Awas,

    There is no ill feeling between any of us here, I am proud of the fact that we are able to have a civil discsussion for so long while vehementaly disagreeing with each other. The fact that we are Indians and Pakistanins makes it ever more impressive. For the record, I don’t think Javed or Omer are biased from being Pakistanis and I am trying to be neutral as well. I think Lara is a great player, but I don’t think he is the greatest, I don’t think Tendulkar is greatest either, but I feel overall as a batsman he edges out Lara, notwithstanding the highest individual score.

    To me this discussion is best left with Javed, Omer on one side, and Kahsahab, Varun and myself on another side simply agreeing to disagree with each other respectfully.

    But for some reason, I keep getting sucked into making just one more reply 🙂

  138. #138 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 4:30 PM

    Pardon my language, I have been typing too fast and made spelling/grammer mistake.

  139. #139 by Awas on November 9, 2009 - 5:03 PM

    As I said above “If a couple of batsmen like him go into a shell then this modest target can also become difficult to achieve.” It seems to have happened.

    Only Pakistan are capable of collapsing like that.

  140. #140 by khansahab on November 9, 2009 - 9:10 PM

    BREAKING NEWS

    A reliance source has told a TV channel that Inzamam is behind team politics in the Pakistan team. Inzamam is trying to oust Younis as captain and Inzamam wants to become coach of the Pakistan team.

  141. #141 by newguy30 on November 9, 2009 - 9:40 PM

    What a turnaround from Aamer and Ajmal, only to fall short in last over. Pakistan lost the match much before when they lost 3 or 4 quick wickets in the middle overs. When Afridi was out I stopped following, knowing the match would be over. Top and middle order did really bad, chasing a target they should have. Pakistan lost a series they should have won, especially in the conditions more suited for them.

  142. #142 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 12:32 AM

    Anyways, my prediction about Pakistan team losing the series came true, I knew it they will lose if they lose the toss and the way Brendon McCullum batted, it was all over till the 30th over i.e., when the score was 163 for 3 and then there was a slide and some hope. Still I was not convinced that Pakistan will make 210. When Butt was playing selfishly and not rotating the strike, I wrote that Khalid Latif will be under pressure and Butt kept him away from facing the bowlers for nearly 3-4 overs and Latif was out as expected.

    Younus Khan Gadha did a good thing to get Butt run out but, himself got out the next ball, what an asshole of a captain he is. There was no need to select Salman Butt in the team why can’t he put his foot down and get someone else in his place? Why did Yousuf not play in this match? I am not sure if he is unfit or sick or was not considered because of poor form? Younus ka konsa form accha hai? It is time that Younus Khan is asked to quit from ODI and no one should talk about him coming out of his retirement from T20 till he is 60 years old.

  143. #143 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 12:36 AM

    If Aamer and Ajmal can put on a partnership of 103 runs also, Harbhajan and Praveen can put on a partnership of 80 runs whats wrong with these recognized batsmen? They are taking their selection for granted and play like novices. Not a single Pakistani batsmen played well except for these two and they are bowlers and, you don’t expect them to score more than 10 runs. One may call it an exciting finish but, it is good that Pakistan has lost because Younus Khan’s case will be much weaker and the selectors will have to think twice before playing Younus for another series ………. going to NZ and Australia. He should only captain the test side c’est ca.

  144. #144 by newguy30 on November 10, 2009 - 2:44 AM

    Not to belabor the Tendulkar/Lara discussion further, but just ran some numbers to see how much each have contributed to wins and losses, along with some of their peers. Here is the result:

    First number is average followed by number of hundreds.

    Wins for team:
    —————
    Tendulkar 65 16
    Lara 61 8
    Ponting 62 27
    Inzamam 78 17
    Dravid 66 10

    Number of hundreds has to be looked at in the context of innings played, so Ponting has many more innings than others since Australia has many more wins, Lara has less since WI has less wins than both Australia and India, as a percentage though none of them are as good as Inzamam, both in run per innings and centuries in winning causes as a percentage.

    Now, let’s see the numbers for losses:

    Loss for team
    ————–
    Tendulkar 36 9
    Lara 42 14
    Ponting 36 4
    Inzamam 28 2
    Dravid 26 1

    In losses, Tendulkar and Dravid both has less runs per innings than Lara, meaning team suffered more when they did not perform, but Inzamam again is way ahead here.

    Using this criteria Inzamam is best and Dravid is second best, in fact whenever Inzamam and Dravid made a hundred their team either won or drew the match, Dravid has only 1 hundred in losing cause, while Inzamam has 2, Lara has 14 hundreds by comparison in losing causes.

    So if winning matches is the criteria then Inzamam is better than anyone else, baring Don Bradman and Gary Sobers.

    Makes this whole discussion kind of moot, isn’t it? 😉

  145. #145 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 10:20 AM

    newguy

    The debate on Lara’s 400 is pointless because, like Tendulkar’s 17000 runs, 45 centuries have gone into record books and records don’t always reveal the total picture until those who have seen the match and remember or recall the events and then analyze the records, then they are able to tell some truth.

    In that match the intention of WI going for a draw was never there because it was the first innings. The way Gayle plays his innings is like Sehwag, Afridi, Gilchrist, McCullum etc., he never plays a slow innings. In that match too he scored a quick fire 89 @ a strike rate (86) it remains the highest and Lara’s strike rate at 69 is the second highest in that match. Scoring 400 runs at that strike rate is fine especially where the pitch was slow and playing in first innings to build a huge total is the priority of every team.

    Therefore, to say it was Lara’s intention or authoritarian captaincy decision to continue to score 700 plus runs in first innings is not correct. There are so many teams who’ve scored that many runs in first innings, if I am not mistaken a few years ago Sri Lanka scored 750 odd runs against SA in their first innings when Sangakara and Jayawardene scored a record partnership and they won it because they were batting second.

    To criticize Lara that he made 400 is nothing but defending the argument for Tendulkar’s sake and the poor fellow despite all these records could not make 300 runs in test cricket while in test cricket, so fa 22 triple centuries have been scored, Lara and Sehwag are among those who achieved it twice and Lara is the only one who scored a 400 not out.

  146. #146 by newguy30 on November 10, 2009 - 1:49 PM

    Omer,

    Regarding your #223, I am not hiding, but I simply don’t have enough time to go into each match detail.

    But as I said in #219, if you are really going to use winning match as a criteria then you should not look beyond your own, Inzamam. Inzi has the best stats in match winning causes, baring Bradman and Gary Sobers, take a look.

    I remember Javed Khan used to say this a lot about Inzi, but I never paid too much attention until I looked at the stats myself when comparing Lara and Tendulkar, rather accidentally, this is the issue, sometimes we have our biases so deep that we refuse to look at evidence even when it is starting in our face.

    This is called cognitive dissonance, even when we are presented with evidence that proves our theories wrong we do not want to accept it.

    So in fact Inzi is the best in match winning scenarios, followed by Dravid, further proof is that neither Pakistan nor India has lost a test match when these two have scored a hundred, except in 2 situations for Inzi and 1 for Dravid, and they both have similar percentage of hundreds as others in winning causes. So the quality of innings these two play are much better and more valuable to the team.

    Coming to Ponting, how can you honestly rate him anywhere with Lara and Tendulkar, his average is 20 in India as you say, is this a sign of a great player, and look at the disparity of his stats home and away, this is huge, he is an excellent player of fast bowling as you would expect him to be, just like Ind/Pak/SL players are of spin bowling.

    We rate South Asian players against fast bowling and quality of innings played away, but then we do not rate Australians against spin and innings played away, what kind of injustice is that.

    As for Ponting in Pakistan, he has played only one series there, and the fast bowling attack is no where near the best Pakistan has had, these tests were played on flat pitches and Shoaib Akhtar is the only fast bowler, for Gods sake Aamer Sohail and Saleem Malik bowled 85 overs between them in Peshawar, and they bowled plenty in other tests, Ponting made some not outs to boost his average.

    Please do not rate Ponting along with the greats, I have nothing against him, he is a great batsman against pace bowling, and he can cut and pull better than any player, but he is not a great all round batsman, he hasn’t mastered spin. Michal Clark and Mathew Hayden has done much better than Ponting in India, in spin friendly wickets, so until Ponting has achieved success in India at the test level he will always be held to a lesser standard.

    Once again, I have no bias against Ponting, I am being really objective here, I only as you do the same.

  147. #147 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 4:55 PM

    The Indian batting side of today and in the recent past has been great on paper and yet they don’t win all the matches or the series home and abroad. They are just like the Pakistani side when there were players like:

    Majid Khan
    Sadiq Mohammad
    Mushtaq Mohammad
    Zaheer Abbass
    Javed Miandad
    Imran Khan
    Sarfaraz Nawaz
    Wasim Raja
    Wasim Bari
    Asif Iqbal
    Intikhab Alam etc.

    But, they never won any world cup or were able to win any series abroad. Whereas, Imran Khan’s team which had won the 1992 WC was weaker than the past teams because, Waqar Younus and Saeed Anwar were not in the team due to Injuries and, Inzamam made his debut and was not known.

    In that team the most recognized and established players were Imran himself and Miandad. Wasim Akram stamped his authority in the final as one of the best fast bowlers of the world but, before that he was known as a good bowler. But, the team won the cup because of leadership and also because they peaked up at the right time and won the crucial matches.

    Winning the 92 WC could be considered as a fluke because there was no consistency in the team.

    Once again the team was great on papers when they played the ICC WC in SA in 2003 with players like:

    * Saeed Anwar
    * Taufeeq Umar
    * Saleem Elahi
    * Younis Khan
    * Yousuf Youhana
    * Inzamam-ul-Haq
    * Shahid Afridi
    * Abdur Razzaq
    * Azhar Mahmood
    * Wasim Akram
    * Rashid Latif
    * Waqar Younis
    * Mohammad Sami
    * Shoaib Akhtar
    * Saqlain Mushtaq

    What else do you want on paper? But, they lost badly.

    So, the point made by khansahab earlier that having two Indian players like Sehwag and Gambhir in Pakistan team they could be number one in the ICC rankings has no meaning at all. Because, even with the best players it is not a guarantee to win, you can win one or two matches but, not a series or a tournament.

  148. #148 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 7:24 PM

    Yousuf angry after sack from final ODI

    Karachi: Senior Pakistan batsman Mohammad Yousuf was angry after he was dropped from the final one-day international against New Zealand in Abu Dhabi, a media report said.

    According to a report in the Jang newspaper, Yousuf lost his cool after being told he was not playing in the final ODI in Abu Dhabi. Pakistan lost the match and the series to the Kiwis.

    “Yousuf was stunned when he was told he was being rested for the match by manager Abdul Raquib and coach Intikhab Alam,” the report said.

    “Yousuf demanded that instead of coming to him the matter should be discussed openly in the team meeting. Efforts were made to pacify Yousuf but he remained unhappy at the rotation policy of resting senior players and didn’t talk to (captain) Younis Khan,” the report said.

    The tour selection committee that includes the captain, coach and chief selector had also rested Shoaib Malik for the first time, another decision that invited criticism in Pakistani cricket circles.

    “Malik was also not happy and when Raquib went to inform him prior to the team meeting that he had would be rested.

    Why have I come to Abu Dhabi by walking all the way from Lahore,” Malik was quoted to have been sarcastically remarked.

    The report claimed that the situation in the Pakistan team worsened during the one-day series and Younis was not even on talking terms with some players.

  149. #149 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 7:25 PM

    Inzamam calls for sacking Younus, Intikhab

    Karachi, Nov 10 (PTI) Former captain Inzamam-ul-Haq today demanded the sacking of current skipper Younus Khan and his replacement by Shahid Afridi after Pakistan’s ODI series loss to New Zealand in Abu Dhabi.

    Inzamam said he was appalled at the way things were being handled in the team and called on the board to sack the captain and coach Intikhab Alam immediately.

    “It is the right time for the board to show some teeth and appoint Shahid Afridi as captain of the one-day team after replacing Younus and Intikhab,” Inzamam said.

    “I think the stubbornness of Younus is damaging the team.

    He has been given too much authority which he is not using properly. To save his reputation he is damaging the team. He has to understand that with authority comes responsibility and he has to take all the players alongside him,” he added.

  150. #150 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 7:28 PM

    Younis Khan should definitely retire from ODIs, but why has Malik yet again escaped the blame?

    Why should Malik be in the team when he has been a pathetic performer ever since he was demoted from the no 3 position in ODI’s?

    When is Malik going to be permanently sacked from ODI and Test cricket?

  151. #151 by newguy30 on November 10, 2009 - 7:48 PM

    Javed,

    Agree that any team that looks good on paper is not necessarily a great team. Teams need to come together with a purpose and determination under strong leadership, then they can achieve anything. The current Australian victory is a good example of this.

    ’92 WC victory of Pakistan was achieved with team work and great leadership, not only inspirational but Imran contributed with bat in the final while his bowling took a dip.

    Similarly India’s WC victory in ’83 is also the result of team work. Indian team of ’83 WC did not look good on paper, most of the players were unknown, except Kapil Dev, still hey managed the impossible all because they played as a team and had great inspirational leadership.

    That said, teams can look good on paper as well as on the field, so long as they play as team and leave individual ego aside, Australian teams that won 3 consecutive WCs are good example.

  152. #152 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 8:16 PM

    Javed A Khan

    The reason why India has been a no 2 or 3 team in the past 2 years is because of Gambhir mainly batting wise, Zaheer Khan bowling wise and Zaheer and Harbhajan, as all rounders.

    When Sehwag and Dhoni matured it also helped India’s rankings.

    The stellar team you have quoted from the Saeed Anwar days flopped in the world cup, but even then I remember Pakistan being a top 4 side. I am talking about team rankings in general, not performance in major tournaments. South Africa are chokers but they have been a top 3 team for a long while.

  153. #153 by newguy30 on November 10, 2009 - 8:16 PM

    Omer,

    I am not actually saying Dravid is better than Tendulkar, he is not in many respects, inspite of contributing to many wins, but I am simply saying there is flaw in the reasoning that looks for contributions in wins as a barometer of quality batting. So, what I am saying is that, if you are using that parameter then Inzamam has the best record among modern players, followed by Dravid. But you wouldn’t say Inzamam is better than Lara would you.

    I will accept your quality of opposition as a criteria, but this will require a detailed analysis of match by match where we have to find all matches Tendulkar played with McGrath in team, Donald in team, Wasim and Waqar in team etc, then compare the same stats of Lara. I don’t have the time or tools for that, there is a guy on cricinfo who does that, but I cannot follow many things he says, so I don’t find much value.

    Bottomline, Tendulkar has been vulnerable against great bowlers, in fact all great players were at some point or other, but what you should know is that Tendulkar eventually overcomes those and invariably ends up dominating the bowler, be it McGrath, Warne, or Donald. He works on his game, his weakness against a bowler, and comes up with a way to dominate that bowler. To say that he has feasted on weaker bowling attacks without presenting evidence will not give any credibility to your argument. If you think this is the case then you should present a comprehensive study with data to back it up. Otherwise it’s just opinion, yours vs. mine.

  154. #154 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 8:30 PM

    Younus Khan has been very stubborn in experimenting his rotation policy and in doing so he is not only damaging the team spirit but, also losing his respect from the juniors as well as seniors.

    There was no sense in:

    Playing Salman Butt
    Dropping Shoaib Malik
    Dropping Umar Akmal
    Dropping Mohammad Yousuf

    I think he also dropped Mohammad Aamir in one of the games, did he?

    This is really very stupid of him, his own form is pathetic he is averaging 7 or 8 runs in this series.

    The batting order needs to be reconsidered and must be stable rather than shuffling like cards.

    All these things combined with his verbosity and stupidities leads to one thing and that is his own EXIT from the ODI’s.

    He should stop playing this “AWAMI CARD” and national support and what not, this is all bullshit. He needs to swallow a bitter pill.

    Under his leadership he lost both the series played in the UAE i.e., against Australia and NZ and also lost the series in Sri Lanka very badly.

    The only feather in his cap is the T20 world cup which was single handedly won by Shahid Afridi, who won the last three matches for Pakistan and he should have been the player of the tournament.

  155. #155 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 8:54 PM

    newguy

    Believe it or NOT ! when I wrote that previous comment, I was sure that you would be writing about India winning the WC under Kapil Dev in 1983. But I don’t agree with you that the Indian team of 83 did not look good on paper, they had some very good and well known players:

    Gavaskar
    Srikkanth
    Amarnath
    SM Patil
    Yashpal Sharma
    Kapil Dev
    Roger Binny
    Ravi Shastri
    Madan Lal
    Kirmani

    Actually, it was Kapil Dev’s heroics in that match against Zimbabwe where he hammered 175* and, India were 17 for 5 and people were thinking that India will get all out under 42. Their lowest test score in the early seventies against England in England was 42. But, then Kapil Dev lead from the front and shattered the Zimbabwean dream and then by winning the Prudential cup India stunned the world.

    It is very strange that in the same WC semifinals, when Pakistan scored something like 180 odd runs, WI managed to score it easily and won by 8 wickets. Whereas in the finals, India also scored similar number of runs as Pakistan did but, India managed to bowl out WI for 140 or something and WI lost by 43 runs. Those days the ODI’s were of 60 overs.

    A team scoring 250 or so in 60 overs were like today’s 350 plus in 50 overs. The T20 has changed the batting style and also the flat pitches.

  156. #156 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 8:56 PM

    “Bottomline, Tendulkar has been vulnerable against great bowlers”, newguy

    He is not vulnerable against great bowlers only, he is more vulnerable against a new bowler also and I can cite many examples.

  157. #157 by newguy30 on November 10, 2009 - 9:38 PM

    Javed,

    How could you possibly know what I was going to write, are you mind reading 🙂 Anyhow, I wrote this because there are some parallels but not many, but the one word that prompted me though was “fluke”, in fact India’s ’83 WC final victory can be called a fluke, more than Pakistan’s ’92 final win. But it wouldn’t be fair to the group of people who pulled off that victory, they were simply good on that day and WI being as might as they were just could not handle pressure very well.

    But in terms of quality of opposition, WI of 83 under Clive Lloyd was a super strong team, much more stronger than the great Australian team under Steve Waugh. But if you want to talk about the line up, then Gavaskar we all know what kind of ODI player he was, he scored 36 not batting for 60 overs, but Gavaskar did not play in final I believe and also he did not had any major contributions, Srikanth was a less known player back then, India did it with bits and pieces players like Amarnath, Binny, Madal Lal, Yashpal Sharma, etc, these guys could bat and bowl as well as field well by those days standards.

    If you want to compare these guys to some of the good Indian teams on paper then the 1987 team and 1996 teams were better, yet they lost both semi-finals. That is what I meant. In terms of match up between Ind and WI back then they had no chance, the odds were very much against them as opposed to Pak vs Eng. WI came to India after that and crushed them in a home series. Marshal and Richards were particularly severe on Indian team.

  158. #158 by newguy30 on November 10, 2009 - 9:51 PM

    I don’t know what good is changing Younis Khan from captaincy is going to do at this point. A tour of New Zealand and Australia is about the toughest assignments that a sub-continental team can get, this is not the time to experiment.

  159. #159 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 9:53 PM

    Javed A Khan

    Did you say there was no sense in dropping Shoaib Malik?

    Pakistan lost the 2 matches in which Malik was playing!!!

  160. #160 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 10, 2009 - 10:13 PM

    khansahab

    Pakistan lost the 2 matches with ALL OTHER PLAYERS in the team.
    My point is Malik is better than Butt, that’s it. Since he was in the squad he should have been in place of Butt. We are not talking of Fawad Alam because he was not in the ODI squad.

  161. #161 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 10:40 PM

    Quotes from Sangakarra’s latest interview:

    “Tendulkar is the best player of modern era”

    “He compares with the (Donald) Bradmans and all the legends of the past”

    “We run out of superlatives when talking about Sachin.”

  162. #162 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 10:41 PM

    Allan Donald saying Tendulkar is a far better player than Lara:

    http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19990712/isp12085.html

  163. #163 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 10:43 PM

    Hanif Mohammad on Tendulkar:

    “But Sachin Tendulkar is the best ever. No one can come near him. No one can touch him as a batsman. He is number one. Brian Lara and Inzamam-ul Haq are world class, but Tendulkar is unmatched. His technique, judgement, his confidence and range of strokes are simply amazing.”

  164. #164 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 10:44 PM

  165. #165 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 10:45 PM

  166. #166 by khansahab on November 10, 2009 - 11:27 PM

    Omer

    I can’t respond to all your comments because I have to sleep now (if I have time tomorrow I will try to respond) but I will just reiterate what I have said previously:

    When the discussion is about who is the best, I don’t see the point of saying Tendulkar is great because of X and Lara is great because of Y. You are welcome to say Lara is the best because of Y.

    I don’t think you still understand my point about how I perceive the definition of “best batsman” to be- I perceive it in the most complete, perfect and consistent sense. Lara has created epics, played some amazing innings and he is a genius; as all complete batsman, I would only put him marginally behind Tendulkar.

    As far as the Test record goes, although Tendulkar is not as prolific in Tests as ODI’s, he still has an amazing record. Here I am NOT talking about his runs (leading scorer in Tests) or his centuries (42), but the following more weighty statistics:

    Averages the same at home, as away
    Averages 65 in matches India has won, and 36 in matches lost- thus a match winner
    (I’ve already told you about 16 wins, 17 draws and 8 losses in those matches he has made a century which is much more impressive than Lara’s record of the same)

    You can say he does not average handsomely against South Africa or Pakistan, which are blemishes, but against South Africa particularly he has played some exceptional knocks and my recently mentioned interview of Allan Donald confirms that. I recall one match when Donald was at his peak, Tendulkar was the rising star, and India had lost many quick wickets. Donald bowled a fierce delivery to Tendulkar outside the offstump, and somehow Tendulkar flicked it to midwicket for 4. That shot was hardly ever played by anyone then (it was the first time I had seen that kind of shot). Donald was amazed and open mouthed for a second, and then he raised his arms and applauded. I have not seen a bowler do that to Lara, Ponting or anyone else. It was not a half century, or a century that was being applauded, but the raw genius of a genius.

  167. #167 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 11, 2009 - 1:19 AM

    khansahab

    There is no change in my psyche after Malik scored that century against India, not at all. He is still the same Meesna and a selfish mediocre player but, he is better than BUTT. I know he flatly refused to open the innings and probably that is the reason he was dropped and I have also mentioned earlier that this must be a deliberate ruse from Malik to refuse to open the innings so that Butt gets in, after all they are buddies.

    When I back a player or insist on his inclusion it is based on his over all utility in the team and I don’t see him as “just an opener” or “just a middle order” player. Malik can open the innings but that is another matter he did not or he refused, but he is better than Butt in batting, bowling and fielding.

    As regards Fawad Alam, I was not being sarcastic towards you and neither it was a taunt, I just mentioned that because that poor chap is not even in the squad, if he was in the ODI squad and if they had left him out, like they always did, I would have said, OK why not try Fawad Alam to open the innings?

    I also agree with you that Farhat, Nazir and especially Taufeeq Omar is useless and so is Butt. Therefore, he should have been dropped why did they drop Malik in the first game? And, Malik got sympathy votes for that century against India and even though he failed in the next two ODI’s he escapes unnoticed because all the focus is on Younus Khan.

  168. #168 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 11, 2009 - 1:37 AM

    khansahab

    The quotes and opinions of former players that you have mentioned are just their views like, yours, mine and Omer’s, just because they are former players their opinions suddenly doesn’t come from above the sky or from another world. I don’t know the academic background of these players you mentioned but, just for a second think if Inzamam, Wasim, Waqar and Zaheer Abbass express their opinions about players while commentating, does it make any difference in your thinking or my thinking or our views about x, y, z players? Because, we know the background of these players. We simply laugh and ridicule their comments.

    If I am not an ex-cricketer of international repute that means I cannot comment on a certain player? Do I have to be an ex-great to comment?

    If you see a table or a chair is crooked or, one leg is smaller than the other, do you have to be a carpenter to comment on it? Unless otherwise you are not a carpenter than you do not qualify to comment.

    The critics of art are not great painters like, Vincent Vangoh, Michael Angelo, Leonardo Da Vinci they are not even artists and painters but they comment and their comments are valued by many. Each critics opinion is different from the other.

    May be you are short of superlatives in describing Tendulkar’s qualities, that may reflect your inability and your inadequacy of vocabulary and language. So, if you are stuck there with your limited vocabulary that doesn’t mean Tendulkar is the best or the greatest of greats.

    Whereas, “Lara on the other hand is like Dostoevsky, weaving together a story of beauty and force, using both sledgehammer and razor blade to equal effect. Dangerous yet compulsive, with a level of artistry that brings viewers to the verge of tears. Even his opponents say: I can’t watch, yet I MUST watch.” He has the poise, the grace, the elegance, the charm and charisma and his style is unmatchable.

  169. #169 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 1:46 AM

    Omer,

    I cannot continue to respond to you because you keep having these biases and I am very much convinced your are not being objective here. When I say bias I don’t mean it based on nationalities, but your bias that you favor one player over another and that colors your view, and it prevents you from having objectivity. For instance, I pointed out correctly that Ponting does not have good record in India, you still rate him above Tendulkar, even though Ponting averages only 20 in India, but you use the low average Tendulkar has in South Africa against him, but Tendulkar averages 36 in SA while Lara averages in the 40s, and he has 3 hundreds there while Lara has only 2 hundreds. Ponting has no hundreds in India, yet you have this bias, so you are not being objective.

    You said Tendulkar do not average as much as Lara against Australia when McGrath was playing, but again you have to look at the whole picture, Tendulkar averages in the 50s in Australia, where as Lara averages in the 40s, Lara’s average goes up based on his home record against them, which is in the 60s, and Tendulkar’s home record is in the 50s. Naturally more credit should be given to runs made away, especially in Australia. There is at least one hundred Tendulkar made against McGrath at the MCG where all of the other Indian batsmen failed.

    But you have to look at these by leaving your biases aside, you are holding a position and trying to defend it, instead I ask you to look at it from a neutral position.

    Anyhow, like I said, so long as you keep ignoring these facts, I am not going to be able to respond further.

  170. #170 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 1:49 AM

    Javed,

    It is clear that you are also not looking at facts, take a look at this match to see whether Tendulkar scored against McGrath or not, look at the rest of the batting. This is made at the MCG where the ball rises to the chest typically 😉

    http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63866.html

  171. #171 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 11, 2009 - 2:03 AM

    No bowler could ever call Sachin Tendulkar his bunny, but Glenn McGrath believes he might have come as close as possible. However, statistics suggest McGrath should be Australia’s best weapon against Tendulkar. It is true that Tendulkar has averaged 57 against Australia overall BUT, only 42 from the matches involving McGrath, having dismissed him early in three Test innings for a 10 and two ducks and that is some achievement.

    And, among others who feared McGrath most is England’s Mike Atherton who was dismissed 19 times by McGrath.

  172. #172 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 11, 2009 - 2:17 AM

    newguy

    Array yaar take a chill pill, by mentioning the chest level rising ball I did not mean to say that Tendulkar never scored against McGrath? Or, he never hit him for a four or a six? In Kenya during that ICC tournament he attacked McGrath from the outset and was fully pumped up hitting for a few fours and two straight sixes over McGrath’s head and according McGrath himself, he never saw Tendulkar that pumped up and even a little verbal with taunts to which McGrath did not reply because he was then on the receiving end.

  173. #173 by Mohammed Munir on November 11, 2009 - 11:26 AM

    PCB is a Bunch of Jokers !!

    Here … it is one new joke after another.

    Mohammad Yousuf appointed Pakistan captain…

    http://www.cricinfo.com/pakistan/content/current/story/433991.html

    Allah Hee Hafiz Cricket Ka…………

  174. #174 by Awas on November 11, 2009 - 12:52 PM

    Younus lets everyone down again by taking a break from cricket after the recent series loss. There is more to it than meets the eye. It’s not just a break.

    When every player starts getting a hump for not being selected in a match and not speaking to Younus then one can see why he made such a drastic decision.

    This constant inconsistency, uncertainty and chopping and changing is simply detrimental to Pakistan cricket.

  175. #175 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 12:56 PM

    Omer,

    As I said your reasoning does not make any sense regarding Pointing, this is why I said you have taken a position with a notion you had in your mind without seeking factual results, and now you are simply repeating the same thing.

    Your argument is that Ponting played well against spinners in Australia so he cannot be bad, and you brush aide the inability to play on low, slow, crumbling wickets in India. Problem with these statements are very basic, first Australia is not a place where spinners get a lot of assistance, unless you are a Shane Warne you are not getting a lot of turn, and the pitches are not slow and low. Second, Murli has not been successful in Australia in general, period. Not just against Ponting but most Australians. So you cannot use that argument. Third, you ignore the fact Ponting hasn’t played Test cricket in Sri Lanka, one of the most difficult places to play Test cricket for touring teams.

    A great player should have the ability to play and succeed on any pitch, period. Ponting hasn’t done that. But your elevation of him is purely based on the fact that you put more emphasis on playing fast bowlers, this is just the type of analysis made to make sub-continental players looks weak, not Tendulkar, he has not weakness against quality bowling unlike you say, it is proven, but sub-continental players in general. But then if you do not apply the opposite to Ponting then it makes your argument very weak. Other Australians, specifically Mathew Hayden, and Michal Clark has been successful in India and they played in the same period as Ponting. Therefore it is very evident he could not master the pitches in India and that is a strike against him. Finally, Ponting has never played Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, or Walsh, he hasn’t played McGrath. The same bowlers you rate Tendulkar against. Tell me one great bowler, pace or spin, that Ponting dominated. He was made to look silly by Ishant Sharma on his first tour of Australia, and Ishant was just a rookie, grated he bowled well, but still he was no great, imagine how Ponting would have fared against those I mentioned.

    This is why he will never be in the same league as Lara and Tendulkar. If you want to really show the person who feasted on weak bowling and made a lot of runs then it is Ponting.

    Anyhow, a discussion on Ponting vs. Tendulkar or Lara is not something I will get into, it’s not worth it. I have said everything I needed to say on this topic in this post. If you want to have the last word on it, you can have it.

  176. #176 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 1:08 PM

    Omer,

    On Lara’s success in Australia, I see only one double hundred he made against McGrath, and Tendulkar has one hundred. Lara’s other double was made in West Indies against McGrath, and he has another double in Australia but McGrath did not play. So, the difference in average against McGrath is because of the big hundreds that Lara makes, where as Tendulkar has more hundreds in Australia, six vs. four for Lara.

    This is the major difference between these two, Lara makes big hundreds, while Tendulkar makes smaller hundreds, but more of them. In my opinion they wash each other out. Tendulkar also has hundreds against McDermott and Merv Hughes, these are not run of the mill bowlers, they were pretty quick too, and you somehow make Brett Lee a mediocre bowler, he bowl at around 150 kmph, while McGrath was never that quick. McGrath was very accurate and he had variations, he was intelligent as a bowler, so definitely he was the best that Australia produced with the exception of Dennis Lillie.

    Your whole argument surrounds on McGrath, where as there were a number of quality bowlers that Tendulkar played in his career. This is why I said you already have a position and now you are looking at all kinds of reasons to back it up.

    Finally, the reason why Australians like Sachin better is because he has performed well in Australia, simple as that. He has made more hundreds and he has more average than Lara in Australia. Lara may have played well against them in West Indies, but Australians obviously give more weight to an innings played there rather than at your home country. Besides Tendulkar has always been a gentleman, and your comment that he was trying to get good comments from them is out of place. It just makes your argument weaker. Let’s just stick to facts and things that we know, instead of inferring why people behave the way did. Lara went “maaki” and “behan ki” with McGrath and gang once or twice, now if you are justifying that by saying Lara spoke his mind, then Harbhajan should be your favorite.

  177. #177 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 1:44 PM

    Javed,

    India salvaged their pride today when the rain washed out play 🙂

    It’s always easier to say if rain did not come down we would have won and salvaged our pride, too bad rain came down. Dhoni will now say we were unlucky to have lost two close games, by 4 runs in Vadodara and 3 runs in Hyderabad, otherwise we would have won. But had they played today and they lost, there is always 50/50 chance of anytime you play, they would not have had any excuse.

  178. #178 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 1:48 PM

    This latest on captaincy from Younus is plain stupid, I don’t understand why this is being tolerated, he should not be allowed to make a mockery out of the captaincy like this. First he rejects it, then he accepts it, then he threatens to resign, then he takes back his resignation, then he quits.. If he is the type of person who cannot make up his mind then he should not be captain in the first place.

    Making Mohd Yousuf captain does not make sense either, but I guess PCB do not have another choice. Perhaps they could have brought in Afridi into test team and make him captain, try something bold, anyhow it cannot be worse than this, either he will succeed or fall flat. But with Afridi you know he will not go down wondering what would have happened.

  179. #179 by Varun Suri on November 11, 2009 - 2:22 PM

    Omer,

    Your arguments to support your position is getting not only weak but also ridiculous to a certain extent. i think newguy has very strongly given reasons to defend whatever you’ve said and it remains to be seen if you prove khansahab wrong by reading them properly and changing your attitude towards Tendulkar and Lara.

    As they say in rustic hindi subah ka bhula hua sam ghar lout aye use bhula nahin kehte

  180. #180 by Varun Suri on November 11, 2009 - 2:39 PM

    Javed&Omer,

    I don’t know how Lara playing Mcgrath better and making huge hundreds in boring draws makes him a better player than Tendulkar and also how Javed.A.Khan does not see Lara as a selfish player when he is always looking for some selfishness in Tendulkar!!

    If you admire Dravid for gentlemanliness and softspokenness than the sme should apply to Tendulkar as rarely as anyone seen him losing his temper or express his dis-satisfaction when given a wrong decision something which has happened so many times in his career alongwith giving away his wicket to debutant bowlers the latest case being one Mckay.

    Omer, Why are you only using Mcgrath as a criterion against Tendulkar what about the other great bowlers in their era? It would be great if you could do some more research and provide some numbers when the bowlers involved are Wasim, Waqar, Donald,Warne amongst others…

  181. #181 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 11, 2009 - 3:29 PM

    The current decision taken by Younus Khan shows that he has applied some lipstick on his forehead to make up his mind to say, he needs a “Niswar Break”.

    He is such a fickle minded person that in a way it is good for the team that he stepped down from captaincy. It would have been better if he had said, I will play the test series but, I would like my senior Yousuf to lead the team and I will be his deputy.

    Afridi made an irrational decision to exclude himself from test cricket otherwise he would have been the captain straightaway, since he is not available they are stuck and, cannot reappoint or reinstate Malik as captain of the team also, Misbah is not in any squad, hence they decided to pick up the senior most person to lead the team and a clown to be his deputy. To me, this will mark the end of Mohammad Yousuf’s career i.e., if he too fails in the batting department.

    With this team, winning in NZ or Australia is an impossible task, the only way Yousuf can retain his position in the playing XI in the future is by scoring heavily, which is also not very likely because he is not in the best of his batting form. Therefore, like Munir says: Iss Team Ka Allah hee Hafiz hai.

  182. #182 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 4:36 PM

    Omer,

    Let’s look at you argument in detail using McGrath as the criteria. I am ready to go into your turf and refute those with data. Since you refuse to provide a detailed analysis and only taking bits and pieces, I went ahead and found the data from Cricinfo (statsguru query).

    See results:

    Overall with McGrath
    ——————–
    Lara 2041 Runs in 41 Innings with 46.38 average and 226 highest score
    Tendulkar 662 Runs in 18 Innings with 36.77 average and 126 highest score

    This figure is consistent with your argument, but with data the devil is always in the details, so let’s break this down further and see where those runs were made. One major criteria on the quality of runs made is by looking at whether it was made at home or away. More weight should be given to runs made away.

    Let’s see how these two fared in Austalia with McGrath playing.

    In Australia with McGrath
    ————————-
    Lara 1003 Runs in 27 Innings at 37.14 average and 226 highest score
    Tendulkar 278 Runs in 6 Innings at 46.33 average and 116 highest score

    Looking at the above tells us different story. Tendular averaged 9 runs more than Lara with McGrath playing in Australia. Based on that alone Tendulkar is a better player of McGrath in McGrath’s own backyard. While Lara does not do well against McGrath when in McGrath’s own backyard.

    To further this thesis, let’s see how these two fared against McGrath at home.

    At Home with McGrath
    ———————
    Lara 1038 Runs in 19 Innings at 61.05 average and 213 highest score
    Tendulkar 384 Runs in 12 Innings at 32.00 average and 126 highest score

    Here the picture becomes more clear. Lara scored heavily at home when McGrath was playing, while he was not very good against McGrath in Australia. Where as Tendulkar did not play well at home with McGrath, but he was good against him in Australia.

    But, let’s see if this is because McGrath dismissed him cheaply always in India. I took at look at the matches. Tendulkar was dismissed 4 times by McGrath in those 12 innings. That’s just a normal probability given McGrath is a strike bowler he had to dismiss Tendulkar at least 1 out of 4 times he played. Tendulkar got out to Jason Gillespie as many times, and couple of times he lost his wicket to Mark Waugh and Hauritz, hardly threatening bowlers.

    There is no weakness against McGrath.

    But we are not done without inspecting your argument that Tendulkar feasted on weak Australian bowling (weak Australian bowling may be an oxymoron?), while Lara did not.

    Let’s see how they did without McGrath.

    Overall Without McGrath
    ———————–
    Lara 815 Runs in 12 Innings at 67.91 average
    Tendulkar 2086 Runs in 37 Innings at 67.29 average

    Now, that’s interesting. Both Lara and Tendulkar did equally well without McGrath, in fact Lara did slightly better, or should I say he feasted more 😉

    Once again, we need to see how they did home & away without McGrath.

    Without McGrath In Australia
    —————————-
    Lara 466 Runs in 8 Innings at 58.25 average
    Tendulkar 1244 Runs in 24 Innings at 62.20 average

    Without McGrath At Home
    ———————–
    Lara 349 Runs in 4 Innings at 87.25 average
    Tendulkar 842 Runs in 13 Innings at 76.54 average

    Wow, this is really eye opening. Here again Lara averages more without McGrath.

    In fact Tendulkar does well in Australia consistently with and without McGrath compared to Lara. He has went on to play after McGrath retired while Lara did not, that is a problem Lara has, not Tendulkar.

    But there is no evidence whatsoever that Tendulkar did not play well against McGrath while Lara did.

    Lara’s runs were made at home, he scored heavily at home with and without McGrath, while he did not do as well in Australia, with and without McGrath. Tendulkar did poorly at home with McGrath, but as I showed it was not McGrath who dismissed him. So this argument is now completely discredited.

    This is the reason why Tendulkar is regarded as a better player by Australians, he has done consistently better in Australia with and without McGrath, Lara has also done well, but not as good as Tendulkar in Australia, with and without McGrath.

    The only other argument that you looked like winning is that Lara has made double hundreds against Australia, that is true he has made one in Australia when McGrath was playing, but his average has not been helped even with that, he still lags Tendulkar in Australia against McGrath.

    There you have it, I have refuted everything that you have said with evidence.

  183. #183 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 4:55 PM

    So what I have done with my previous post showing details on how Tendulkar and Lara performed against Australia with and without McGrath, both home and away, is that I took Omer’s argument and turned it on him. The details show that Lara was weak against McGrath, in fact both of them did not do so well with McGrath playing, but Lara more so. The opposite is also true, that without McGrath Lara does even better on an overall basis.

    The only time Lara does better than Tendulkar with McGrath is at home, where as Tendulkar had a couple of poor series, but as I showed this had nothing to do with McGrath, he just had couple of poor seasons, end of story.

    Going by Omer’s thesis, what I have found is Lara is a home pitch bully, while Tendulkar does better against the best opponents in the last two decades in their own backyard, both with and without McGrath compared to Lara.

    Now, Omer may accuse Tendulkar of not being a home pitch bully against McGrath, to that I say Indians in general are very hospitable to visitors 🙂

  184. #184 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 5:52 PM

    To further prove that my hypothesis about Tendulkar being better than Lara against quality bowling, I went ahead and inspected the allegations Omer had about Tendulkar being weaker against other quality fast bowlers of his time, namely Allen Donald, Wasim Akram, and Waqar Younis. What do we find?

    Against Donald
    ————–
    Lara 681 Runs in 20 Innings at 34.05 Average and 83 highest score
    Tendulkar 658 Runs in 20 Innings at 32.90 Average and 169 highest score

    Without Donald
    —————
    Lara 1034 Runs in 15 Innings at 68.93 average and 202 highest score
    Tendulkar 541 Runs in 16 Innings at 38.85 average and 155 highest score

    Wow, Lara really feasted on SA bowling when Donald was not playing, and he averages higher at home. While Tendulkar made a quality 169 against Donald at his peak. Khansahab mentioned Donald himself writing about this in his biography.

    How about Wasim and Waqar, Omer keeps bringing up that Tendulkar is weak against them. Let’s compare.

    Against Wasim & Waqar
    ———————
    Lara 394 runs in 13 innings at 30.30 average and 96 highest score
    Tendulkar 395 runs in 12 innings at 32.91 average 136 highest score

    Without Wasim & Waqar
    ———————-
    Lara 779 runs in 9 innings at 86.55 average and 216 highest score
    Tendulkar 662 runs in 15 innings at 50.92 average and 194 highest score

    Once again, the numbers are startling, Lara feasted on Pakistani attack without Wasim & Waqar.

    Lara has not scored a hundred against either Donald, or Wasim & Waqar.

    Most of his double hundreds and triple hundred and four hundred came against relatively weaker bowling attacks. Lara has only one double hundred against McGrath in Australia and one in WI, he doe not even have a hundred against Wasim & Waqar and Allen Donald, three of the best fast bowlers of his time. While Tendulkar has scored hundreds against all of them. Now, this is not my criteria, but I am using Omer’s criteria. Personally I don’t consider, Shane Warne and Brett Lee as weak bowlers, but Omer does. We don’t even need to look who is better against Warne and Lee, we know the answer 🙂

    So, in the end, I did not know this myself, I thought Tendulkar and Lara were a toss off, 50/50 if you will, but I thank Omer for making me do this. I have come away with a higher appreciation for Tendulkar’s mastery.

  185. #185 by Varun Suri on November 11, 2009 - 6:08 PM

    Omer,Javed,Khansahab,newguy,

    I like the way this debate is ending. Poor Omer has finally run out of reasons to prove his point. I think newguy&khansahab has sorted this debate in a very fair and unbiased fashion something which i was incapable of and that’s why i chickened out earlier…Bravo newguy!

  186. #186 by Awas on November 11, 2009 - 6:25 PM

    As I said before, in this news there is more to it than meets the eye. Osman Sammuidin’s article now says it all. Younus was right to quit if most players are not co-operating with him. I already said above before this article came outthat one can see why he made such a drastic decision”.

    If some deliberately underperformed in the third ODI then they should be the ones kicked out with the main culprit Malik. The overhaul needs to start with changes in PCB’s command first as they are proving incompetent more so and are nurturing player-power and discord in the team. Intrigue and revolt like that is utterly disappointing for the fans and needs to stop.

    One thing is for sure, captaincy job here is a hot-potato. Anyone, even Afridi, will have a difficult job. Inzamam should never be made a coach as he will end up with most power in his hands.

  187. #187 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 6:28 PM

    Omer,

    I did not deliberately leave Pollock out, just that Donald was far superior as a fast bowler, but in case of Wasim & Waqar both were equally good in Test marches, if you’d like I’ll post those including Pollock. But I don’t think it’s going to make any difference.

    The trend is clear, both Tendulkar and Lara averages less when the great bowlers are in the opposition and their average goes up without them, but Lara more so than Tendulkar. This is understandable of course, the great bowlers would not be great if they are not able to get the wickets of great batsmen.

    The only exception is Lara’s home record when McGrath is playing vs. Tendulkar’s home record of the same, but as I said it was not McGrath who got him out on then.

    I and not twisting anything here, I am completely open to accepting Lara as a greater batsman against quality bowling, but I don’t see it.

    I do understand your point of view though, Lara is such a master batsman capable of making those shots and scoring those huge hundreds, how can he then be inferior? I guess this is where you are coming from and I respect that. But the truth is Tendulkar is a master class and he simply edges out Lara.

    The only thing Lara has going for is his penchant for big scores, and Tendulkar misses out here, but imagine if Tendulkar had that too, then he would be God, and we don’t want that, do we?

  188. #188 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 6:56 PM

    Just for kicks I checked Shane Warne against these two batsmen.

    Lara averages 54.02 while Tendulkar averages 60.45

    In Australia against Warne Lara averages 47.39 while Tendulkar averages 56.12

    At home against Warne Lara averages 67.90 while Tendulkar averages 63.33

    So, again the trend is that Lara averages lower against the top spinner of his era, but at home his record is substantially better than in Australia. Lara averages 20 runs more at home against Warne, this is very similar to his trend against McGrath where he averages 24 runs more at home.

  189. #189 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 7:17 PM

    Awas

    In August 2009 I wrote a comment for your attention saying that a Karachi based Geo presenter had said in March 2009 that Younis Khan would quit captaincy within 1 year because of team politics. You refuted and said that the team is totally united and all these news are just cheap propaganda.

    Now it is very clear that it is indeed team politics that has led this to happen. Afridi is NOT a part of the revolt and his name has only been attached to this news because he is the VC of the team and players naturally would go to the VC to complain about the captain. If Afridi was against Younis:

    1) he would not say that Younis does not look at which province a player is coming from

    2) he would not make himself unavailable for selection in Tests having ALREADY been appointed T20 captain- he would go after captaincy in all formats

    Unfortunately it seems like a regionalism issue, yet again.

  190. #190 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 7:24 PM

    This is going to be my final post on this debate, I mean it this time. I have summarized everything I wanted to say in previous posts, and I have successfully refuted all arguments against Tendulkar, moreover I have proved those arguments are in fact affecting Lara more negatively.

    In summary, the difference between these players is their home & away records, and how they have played the great bowlers of their time in those bowlers home turf.

    Away record
    ————
    Tendulkar 7165 runs at 54.28 average and 24 hundreds
    Lara 5736 runs at 47.80 average and 17 hundreds

    Home record
    ————–
    Tendulkar 5608 runs at 54.98 average and 18 hundreds
    Lara 6217 runs at 58.65 average and 17 hundreds

    Just for fun, here is where Ricky Ponting stands.

    Home 6276 runs at 60.93 average and 20 hundreds
    Away 4727 runs at 49.23 average and 16 hundreds

    I don’t even want to talk about Ricky! If there is ever a home pitch bully he is the one, no actually that is Mathew Hayden, Ricky is second to big Matty Hayden in that.

    Look how Tendulkar is towering above Lara and Ponting in his away from home record. Unbelievable stats, while both Lara and Ponting has scored 11 runs more at home to boost their average. Look at the 24 hundreds Tendulkar has made away from home.

    This is where Sachin Tendulkar stands heads & shoulders above all, and this is really the reason everyone is calling him the best modern batsman ever.

    I don’t want to go on further and sound like another Sachin shill, I am not, but I came away with a better appreciation for him, and I will overlook his small shortcomings.

  191. #191 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 11, 2009 - 7:27 PM

    Awas

    I agree with you that captaincy post is a very difficult job to manage, even Afridi would find himself in hot waters if he takes that job for test and ODI. T20 is a different ball game, he has performed well in both the T20 world cups and we all know how he played in both and won single handedly BUT, cricket is a team game and he cannot perform alone and win each time. Still, I believe that managing a T20 team will not be that difficult for him as opposed to the other two formats.

    The future captaincy depends on how Mohammad Yousuf performs, as a captain he has no experience and neither is he aggressive. The only way he can command respect is by making big scores, which also is a very difficult scenario considering his form.

    I do agree that there is a kinda revolt in the team and it has a regional bias which in any case not going to help the team. Pakistan ranks very low in ODI and test and its rankings will drop further when they lose against NZ and Aus in the next few weeks/ months.

  192. #192 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 11, 2009 - 7:31 PM

    Imran Khan went through an emergency surgery ‘nikass ka rassta band ho gaya thaa… ” his intestine was blocked. 😀 poor fellow. He is out of danger now and will remain in the ICU for a few more days.

    I agree with Awas that Inzamam should NEVER be made a coach for Pakistan team because he will take all the powers and once again there will be a tableeghi culture in the team. Look at his 13 inch long beard now, he looks more like a Mullah than a coach.

  193. #193 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 7:47 PM

    Omer

    Look at your comments in this debate. Can you even see how bigoted you sound?

    People praise Tendulkar because they are on BCCI’s payroll

    Australians are biased towards X

    Indians are biased towards Z

    It’s like you are finding faults with everyone in the world who disagrees with you- when someone starts doing that, people say that the fault lies with the person himself, not the rest of the world.

  194. #194 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 7:49 PM

    Younis Khan has behaved like a total idiot, a Drama queen and a loser, but the way the team has revolted against him is unacceptable. I totally agree with Javed A Khan on this point.

    I honestly wanted Younis to retire or take a break from cricket, but not in this way where he has been forced to do so by the revolting Punjabi players. It is like saying, Saddam Hussein was a bad ruler who should have been removed, but not in the way it turned out to be.

  195. #195 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 7:53 PM

    Earlier this year I said that Kamran Akmal is rising very quickly amongst the ranks and despite his pathetic performances behind the stumps, he would be captain soon. My analysis was met with cynicism but one year forward, Akmal has cemented his place in the team and is now the vice captain. If this politics goes on (and there is no reason to say it won’t) Akmal will be the future captain of Pakistan, which is a disgrace, a travesty and totally unfair on other keepers who deserved to be in Akmal’s place.

    A player who has played politics for most of his career, dropped innumerable catches-single-handedly losing matches, destroyed careers of players like Kaneria and Sami, is now the Vice Captain.

  196. #196 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 7:57 PM

    Omer

    The difference between fact and opinion is that a fact is something that is empirically true and can be supported by evidence while an opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with some type of evidence.

    So this comment of yours about Australians overrating Tendulkar, is that a fact or is that an opinion?

    I’m just messing with your head 🙂 I understand what you mean, but I don’t agree with this. Tendulkar has smashed Australians so much that no wonder they rate him very highly. Whereas, Warne is the best spinner of all time and miles better than the 2nd best legspinner of his time, Kumble.

  197. #197 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 8:04 PM

    BREAKING NEWS

    It is believed Misbah ul Haq will replace Younis Khan in the Test squad. Who else could it have been?

    What a sad day for Pakistan cricket- Misbah the mediocre player and politician is replacing Younis Khan.

  198. #198 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 8:04 PM

    Omer,

    I cannot believe you still want to argue after all that I have posted above, the data is staring in your face. Now you want to compare against Pollock? what’s next, start looking at how much good Lara is against Henry Oolonga 😉 Pollock is not in the same league as McGrath, Donald, Wasim, and Waqar, his strike rate is 58 where as Donald’s strike rate is 47, when you have made the comparison with baap why compare with beta, Donald is Pollock’s baap.

    Anyhow, your original argument was all about McGrath, but I cleary refuted it, showed that Lara was a home pitch bully against McGrath, while Tendulkar performed 9 runs better than Lara against McGrath in Australia.

    Why are you even in this debate anymore?

  199. #199 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 8:12 PM

    Omer,

    I really don’t want to say anything gratuitous here, but I have to restrain myself hard after reading your last post. You want to take out the not outs to bring Tendulkar’s average down .. LOL. Do you have anything to say about Lara scoring 11 runs more at home, for gods sake the guy averages under 50 abroad. As for your Bagladesh/Zimbabwe comment, sure great batsmen always tend to score more against minnows, they are just toying with the bowling, what else should they do? Lara is really unlucky here that he played fewer innings against them, still he made it good against them, if he got more opportunity he would have boosted his average, poor guy lost on that, especially if it was at home, that is where he is good at, in his backyard .. LOL.

  200. #200 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 8:39 PM

    Omer

    I am agree with you but I will also add that the respect-the-senior-policy is also known as “respect-Punjab-policy”.

  201. #201 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 8:48 PM

    Omer,

    I don’t want to say anything more and bring in more players like Pollock, Murli, etc etc, that is what averages are for, and they are clearly there to see who has upper hand.

    I have refuted your arguments, and there is nothing more you or I can add. But just a few things:

    You said:
    Of course Tendulkar averages more abroad, just look at his numbers against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

    Why are you responding like this, this doesn’t suit you or me, I have been very fair and unbiased with you, but you make a cheap shot instead. Again, do you have anything to say about Lara’s average below 50 abroad?

    Second quote:
    How was Lara a home pitch bully against Mcgrath, he has made 2 200s against Mcgrath in Australia if I am not mistaken.

    I showed you his average was 37 against McGrath in Australia, and his home average is 61, that is 24 runs disparity, if he is not a home pitch bully why can’t he average at least close to 50, like Tendulkar who average 46 against McGrath in Australia.

    Third:
    How can you say Pollock wasn’t in the same league, Pollock was maybe not as good as Mcgrath or Donald, but he was still a great bowler, right there at the top.

    He is not, he was a good bowler in the absence of great bowlers, same way Brett Lee is. Let’s not even bother with this.

  202. #202 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 10:37 PM

    I took a look at the figures to see how much truth is there in the allegation that Tendulkar’s average is boosted by innings against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and compared those to Lara’s.

    Tendulkar has a combined 1474 runs in 20 innings at 92.12 against them.
    Lara has a combined 395 runs in 6 innings at 65.83 against them.

    Lara has played fewer innings, had he played more he also would have got more.

    Anyhow taking away this from total for both and coming up with average against just the major nations here is what we get.

    Tendulkar’s average goes down to 51.83
    Lara’s average goes down to 52.53

    So, yes, Lara is ahead by .50 difference. How great is that 😉

    But, there also no respite for Lara, because Tendulkar is not done yet, by the time he finishes up let’s see how these numbers look again. Since Tendulkar will play more Tests against leading nations going forward and less against minnows this number should become less of an influencing factor.

  203. #203 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 10:52 PM

    Blundering PCB continues to torture Pakistan

    ISLAMABAD – Cricket lovers are still recovering from the shock loss of the national team from New Zealand in ODIs. To add to this shock, the PCB has dropped a bombshell by appointing Muhammad Yousuf as the captain of the Pakistan test team. How on earth can you replace your captain at the eleventh hour?
    If Younus Khan is not competent enough, why was he leading the one day side, especially since the format doesn’t suit his style of play. At this important time, when the team is set to play test series against the Kiwis, Yousuf’s appointment will serve no purpose to the team but will only complicate the already tense situation.
    Like in the past, when Yousuf was named captain for a brief spell, it was witnessed he had no command on team affairs and he not only lacks leadership qualities but also has no grip on and off the field. The situation has not changed much since.
    PCB Chief Ijaz Butt is destroying not only the cricket team’s image but also has been the key figure in letting the whole nation down. Whether it was the shifting of World Cup 2011 matches from Pakistan or the rude and unjustified attitude of the BCCI who were the key players in isolating Pakistan from the rest of the sporting world. Time is ripe to set an example and change the whole PCB management before its too late. President Asif Ali Zardari, who is also the Patron-in-Chief of the Pakistan cricket team must act now. Set aside political differences and appoint Imran Khan as the PCB chairman.
    He is the only person in the current difficult times who can rescue the image of the country. Our nation is already striving hard to recover from the deadly terrorist activities. Please give them some sigh of relief. Don’t make decisions in haste.
    Let the whole PCB set-up be suspended and appoint an ad hoc body for the time being. Soon after the test series against New Zealand make Imran Khan the head of PCB and give him a free hand so he can bring the positives out from the current crop of the players.

  204. #204 by khansahab on November 11, 2009 - 10:57 PM

    Younus stood down due to lack of backing by Butt

    The Pakistan Cricket Board may be insisting that Younus Khan had asked to be rested but he was apparently forced to step down from captaincy for the Test tour of New Zealand after PCB chairman Ejaz Butt refused to back him in the players’ revolt.

    Well placed sources in the team told PTI that Younus had held a one-on-one meeting with Butt in Dubai after the one-day series defeat to New Zealand in Abu Dhabi which led to widespread criticism of the captain and the team’s performances.

    Younus had asked Butt to back him and pull up the players who had ganged up against him, but the PCB chief was clearly not amused.

    “Younus told Butt some of players were not cooperating with him and letting the team down and they should be pulled up. Butt, however, remained non-committal,” one source said.

    The source said that after Butt kept quiet, Younus told him that he would make things easier by making himself unavailable for the series against New Zealand and Australia.

    Butt had been reportedly been given a clear message by the players and some former Test captains that Younus should not lead the team for the Test tour of New Zealand.

    “Basically, it was a revolt against Younus and Butt bowed to the pressure of the players. It was a case of Butt changing tact within a matter of days. Younus realised this during the meeting because the same PCB chairman had supported him while rejecting his resignation last month,” the source noted.

    Interestingly, Younus had also excused himself from the Test series in New Zealand and Australia when he had submitted his resignation to Butt after the Champions Trophy.

    The source said that problems for Younus had begun the moment the team landed in Abu Dhabi with senior players like Shoaib Malik, Abdul Razzaq, Kamran Akmal and Mohammad Yousuf not willing to cooperate with the captain when they were told they were being rested for one match each.

    “Their attitude disappointed Younus and this led to a bad situation in the team. At one stage, Younus was not even on talking terms with many players with the coach and manager silent spectators and unable to resolve the crisis,” the source said.

    “Yousuf who was named captain in place of Younus was constantly in touch with some former captains in Pakistan seeking advice and Younus heard them at one stage telling the manager Abdul Raquib that Inzamam-ul-Haq should be brought in as coach,” the source said.

    This is not the first time that the board had to bow to players’ revolt. In 1981, the players had revolted against the captaincy of Javed Miandad and in 1994 the players ganged up against Wasim Akram.

  205. #205 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 11:19 PM

    Omer,

    Not so fast. There is a trend in Lara’s average dropping while he plays away and it increases when he plays at home, so he certainly suffers while touring. Tendulkar do not have this problem, even after you take away the average against minnows it stays about the same.

    Regarding the average dropping when taking away runs made against minnows, it is expected, great batsmen are expected to score more against them, Lara does too, but I showed that he hasn’t played as many innings to make this a substantial weight, only 6 innings vs. Tendulkar’s 20 innings, even then they are neck and neck in average, with Tendulkar ahead in away record.

    About McGrath, I showed that Lara has a huge dip playing McGrath in Australia vs. home conditions.

    Finally, we haven’t looked at how Tendulkar and Lara performed against premier bowlers from their teams, namely Kumble/Harbhajan v. Lara and Ambrose/Walsh vs. Tendulkar.

    Let’s see how they perform:

    Lara vs. Kumble/Harbhajan
    1002 runs in 29 innings at 34.55 average and 120 highest score

    Tendulkar vs. Ambrose/Walsh
    691 runs in 12 innings at 62.81 average and 179 highest score

    So, Lara may have outscored Tendulkar against Murali, but he performed poorly against Kumble and Harbhajan. While Tendulkar scores 62.81 against Ambrose and Walsh, two of the best fast bowlers of his time.

    Tendulkar has now fared better than Lara against Donald, Wasim, and Waqar, and scores highly against Waslh and Ambrose, while Lara has done better against Murali, and Pollock, and he fares really bad against Kumble/Harbhajan. Tendulkar also did better against McGrath in Australia than Lara.

    Anyone who looks at this will have no doubt who is best.

    What else if left?

  206. #206 by Awas on November 11, 2009 - 11:22 PM

    khansahab

    You refuted and said that the team is totally united…”

    I understand what you are trying to say here but I wouldn’t put it quite like that. At that time you had mentioned “a source” (as there often is) but on the other hand often I would take what a source says with a pinch of salt as to air sensationalism is what they get paid for. I then say it may or may not be true what they say but lets also see the other side.

    I generally give more emphasis on what comes out of the horse’s mouth itself as it’s only fair to air what they have to say for themselves. It won’t be difficult to recall that Younus and PCB at the time were saying there is no discord and the team is united. One cannot completely dismiss that totally especially as we all know Younus is a man of integrity. He then went on to say “the day I see disunity I will resign”. Isn’t that exactly what Younus has done? He may not have seen this happen before and now that he has he has done exactly what he said he would. Perhaps ours is a tussle between “opinion” and “fact” too 🙂

    On your point of “Unfortunately it seems like a regionalism issue, yet again”. Well, that may be the case but I would sincerely hope not as not only I dislike it (like others here) but that is just one way of looking at it. Its looking more a case of ugly head of player power emerging again than anything else as such revolts have happened in the past too. There is no stopping Osman Sammiudin calling it “regionalism” if it really was as he has addressed everything else quite honestly he would have said so too. Besides, it appears they were all pushing for Afridi to take over. If it was purely a regional issue they wouldn’t be pushing for Afridi. Yousaf is just a stop gap case.

    By the way, forget how Kamran Akmal performed in the past and for that matter anyone else. If he ever becomes (and it’s a very big if) the best keeper and the best batsman then why not captain too? Its only fair to have the best.

  207. #207 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 11:23 PM

    Omer,

    I did calculate the way averages are normally reported for players, i.e., not including not outs, so you reduce 4 not outs from the 27 not outs he had and you reduce 16 innings from total innings, and you don’t include the runs. This is consistent with average reported on Cricinfo. But even if we go by your route it doesn’t change anything.

  208. #208 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 11:31 PM

    “Note that initially when Murali joined world cricket, he wasn’t as good a bowler as he later became when he peaked.”

    By peaking, you mean when he started chucking 🙂 Initially he didn’t know how to throw the ball like a javelin later he learned that trick. Just joking of course, but there is some truth in it somewhere.

  209. #209 by newguy30 on November 11, 2009 - 11:48 PM

    I am really getting exhausted, but since I had a holiday today I managed to post all this. I won’t be able to follow up much tomorrow.

    To summarize what we find is that Tendulkar and Lara are better against the great bowlers of their time in this order.

    Lara
    —-
    1. Murali
    2. Pollock
    3. McGrath (at home)

    Tendulkar
    ———
    1. Donald
    2. Wasim
    3. Waqar
    4. Ambrose
    5. Walsh
    6. Warne
    7. McGrath (Australia)

    It’s crystal clear, Tendulkar has performed against who’s who among the bowlers of his time. While Lara has done better only against Murali and Pollock (who’s not in the league as the other fast bowlers).

    Who is not yet tired of this yet?

  210. #210 by Shoaib on November 12, 2009 - 1:53 AM

    lol@ newguy & Omer

    Himmet hey tum logo kee yaar, shabaash hay!! scroll ker ker kay meri ungliyaa toot gai lakin tum logo kee himmet nahi tooti :D……..Lage raho munna bhai!

  211. #211 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 2:21 AM

    Last night when it was on the news that Younus Khan has asked for a break and Yousuf was appointed as the captain, the question came to our mind who will replace Younus in test matches? One of my friends said, Misbah. I said, I don’t think so because he is not in the squad and how come they suddenly include him in the squad? He said, if you wanna bet, I am ready and mark my words Misbah will be taken in the squad and he will play in test matches in place of Younus Khan.

    Now, khansahab has confirmed that Misbah is being considered to replace Younus Khan. How farcical and how predictable these people are and how biased and how selfish and mean these people are!

  212. #212 by Varun Suri on November 12, 2009 - 3:43 AM

    This news about Younis Khan taking a break is indeed an unfortunate one. No matter how poor his form or captaincy was, i admired him for the same reasons why Javed A Khan likes Dravid. He might be poor in English but was ever smiling and could have been a good leader if the other players would not have played politics with him. The most unfortunate part in all this Drama is that once again Shoaib Malak has gone unnoticed and he is the one who would be having the last laugh as who knows? if they can get Misbah back they can also reinstate Malik as the Captain if Pak has a poor series in NZ.

    What a pity? Apne desho mai sharafat ka zamaana hi nahi hai. Ya fir aapka koi Godfather hona chayihe to protect your back at all times.

  213. #213 by Awas on November 12, 2009 - 8:34 AM

    Ramiz Raja: A sad situation for Pakistan cricket, once again in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. Stories tell us that Younis Khan is once again not happy with the support that he is getting from his players and as a result he has packed in which is a serious blow to Pakistan cricket because I thought he was doing rather well as captain. The team was in the rebuilding process and after the victory in the Twenty20 World Cup he came out as a strong captain.

    We know that Younis is mercurial and is moody at times and he has made a complaint to the authorities that he will not be able to dictate terms and lead the pack if the board cannot help him. What he wants from the cricket board, I guess, is for the players to be reigned in and be disciplined. The situation has turned pretty ugly which is extremely sad because I thought Younis was the perfect captain to take Pakistan to new heights.

    I can relate to Younis’ troubles because as a captain I also felt stiff resistance at times from the players. Good captaincy is all about adjustment and managing individuals and I think Younis hasn’t done that all the time. We know he is passionate and means well but it is his style of leadership that hasn’t gone down too well with the players.

    There is now a big question mark over Younis’ future. I hope that he keeps himself available for the Pakistan team. A big question for the PCB to answer now, as they need to get Younis on board since he is a fantastic Test-match player. The other part is whether to discipline the players or to announce a brand-new captain for the future. The situation is a tricky one and I hope it gets resolved very quickly.

  214. #214 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 11:42 AM

    Varun

    Awas has quoted Ramiz Raja and his comments answer most of the questions you posed. Younus may be a gentleman but, that is not what is needed, he needs to lead from the front, by example and also by being strict to discipline the players and not just keep smiling and giggling like Dalai Lama.

    The question of appointing a brand-new captain is indeed very difficult because, at the moment there is no one who can lead with authority. Barring MoYo who is not so aggressive and is on the verge of retirement, Afridi is the senior most player but, that UKP has voluntarily retired himself from test cricket.

    It would be a catastrophe if Chanda, Moon, Meesna Malik is reconsidered to lead again. Because, he is the one who has destroyed the team spirit and the culture by bringing petty politics in the game. Neither should Misbah be considered because he too is old and out of form. That leads to Akku. It would be “disgustipatingly” pathetic to appoint that screecher as captain.

    My suggestion is: Either Younus Khan gets some “aqal kay naqoon” and comes back for the Australian tour and chooses to lead only the test side and leave the other 2 formats for Afridi. Or, the PCB convince Afridi to reconsider his decision to play for test matches and he becomes the captain for all formats of the game. But, for the better interest of the team the first suggestion is more practical and pragmatic.

  215. #215 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 11:58 AM

    newguy & Omer

    I think it is about time to put an end to this long and meaningless debate on Tendulkar vs Lara, no one will change his stance. In expressing our views and opinions, biases & prejudices will always play their role and no matter how many stats are pulled out and compared with, neither party will accept it. Besides, it was not a matter of stats because we all know the stats, its a matter of quality, style, poise, elegance and blah, blah.

    Tendulkar’s fans and supporters may refer him as the shining armour or, the light that beacons and spreads and it is so bright that no one can stand up to him for comparison and they call him a god. And, they highlight Lara’s dark side just for the heck of it. I want to cite this quote to change the perspective of many people: light thinks it travels faster than anything but, it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.😀

  216. #216 by newguy30 on November 12, 2009 - 1:06 PM

    Javed,

    I have put an end to the debate, everything I have to say is said in the previous posts with the example of stats on who is better against quality opposition, and my #316 short lists those, those are not my opinions, but facts pulled out from Cricinfo.

    It is clear that arguments used against Tendulkar has no basis, the last straw to clutch on for Lara’s support is his 7 double hundreds and a 400.

    I am not a fan of anyone, I enjoy cricket, fans are biased, they get emotional, I don’t treat Tendulkar as God or anywhere close. I have been very fair and unbiased, and try to find evidence for the claims made by Omer and backed by you, such as Tendulkar is weak against McGrath, never made runs against Wasim & Waqar so on, but instead what do I find, it is Lara who is more weakers against these same people, and Lara is weaker against Kumble/Harbhajan, the response to that is I can’t compare Lara against them, because it shows him in poor light 😉 and I can’t compare Tendulkar’s record against Ambrose/Walsh because again his record is good there 😉

    I am not using any of the personal side to show who is better player, with my concluding posts I simply stuck to countering the arguments against Tendulkar and showed in fact Lara has more problems.

    So, it’s clear how this debate ended. If there is still a bias, that is Omer and yourself, now I have no problem in both of you favoring Lara as a matter of personal choice, everyone has there choices, no one can ask everyone to accept Tendulkar as their favorite.

    This is not what this debate is all about, it’s about empirical evidence showing Tendulkar as superior batsman of his time using conventional methods.

    Finally, Tendulkar is not even my favorite batsman, personally I used to enjoy watching Viv Richards as someone else also said here. But I thought I needed to correct the allegations brought forward by Omer and yourself against him, and I did.

  217. #217 by newguy30 on November 12, 2009 - 2:06 PM

    Omer,

    One final post and then I’ll be out of here. I know I said this before 3 or 4 times, but I really mean it this time. I just need to clarify a few things on the fundamental disagreement we are having.

    I am not debating on whether Lara’s double hundreds or his 400 are not great achievements, they are, I am simply debating your usage of wrong data to project him as more greater than he is, conversely using the same logic project weakness in Tendulkar where none exist.

    A few examples of what you may say about Lara based on facts that everyone will agree are:

    1. Lara has made many double hundreds, a 300 and 400
    2. No one ever made a 400, and only 3 people made two 300+ scores
    3. Based on this I consider Lara as a great

    The above points have merit, it’s questionable whether that alone can be used as greatness, but it has merit.

    A few examples of what you may say about Lara not based on facts but based on your impressions that no one will agree are:

    1. Lara was better against McGrath – not true because only at home, Tendulkar has better record against McGrath in Australia.
    2. Lara was better against Donald – not true because he only averages 1 run better, and has no hundreds, Tendulkar has one big hundred
    3. Lara was better against Wasim & Waqar – not true, he averages less then Tendulkar and has no hundreds again, Tendulkar has a hundred.
    4. Lara was better against spin – not true because only against Murali, he was weaker against Kumble/Harbhajan, and Tendulkar was better against Warne.
    5. Lara was better against Pollock – correct, but Tendulkar played Ambrose/Walsh well and they are not any lesser than Pollock.
    6. Lara has won many matches while Tendulkar has not – not true, match wins are contribution of whole team, and many times bowlers are the one who win matches.

    In the end, the fundamental disagreement we are having is your opinions above that are based on your impressions rather than facts. I have no problem with the facts that I have listed above.

    Finally, if you say you consider Lara as greatest based on the facts we agree on I have no problem in understanding your point of view and respecting it, but on the contrary if you are upholding the incorrect statements as a basis then I cannot ever agree to them. I wish I could, but I have checked myself and see them as incorrect.

    I hope you now understand. I don’t think this discussion was meaningless however, I have a fairly good understanding of the facts and impressions, and I hope I have planted at least a small seed of doubt in your mind which will cause you to do some introspection of your own at some point.

    I think whoever followed this discussion also have a fairly good idea of what are facts and what are opinions, and what I have sought to do it plant the seeds to doubt in the naysayers mind, make a small crack in the wall, so to speak, so anytime they bring this up they will think “well what if I am wrong, what if newguy is right”.

    If I have achieved that, then I think the time I spent is worth it.

  218. #218 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 4:43 PM

    I hope Imran Nazir won’t throw away his wicket, it is very rare that he gets off to a good start and now that he has, he should continue to bat as long as he can. He can be devastating to any bowling attack and today he hammered Butler for two sixes in a row and 2 fours. Pakistan has got a good start and there is no dearth in batting. In the last match even Ajmal has proved that he can bat. So apart from Nazir and Afridi playing now there is Shoaib Malik, Fawad Alam, Abdul Razzaq, Tanvir, Gul, Aamer so they all can bat and score.

  219. #219 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 4:54 PM

    Imran Nazir was on 38 when I wrote that comment, he scored 58 in 38 balls with 5 fours and 4 sixes, he has done his job but, he should not have thrown away his wicket like this, especially with Bond bowling with all his experience, he was going after him, he managed 4 on the first ball, but on the second one he was gone. With Afridi and Nazir on the crease, they added 36 in 20 balls. Now Moon has come in to bat with Afridi. Akku brothers didn’t score much today.

  220. #220 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:01 PM

    Now Afridi has gone too 101/4 in 12.4 overs, what seems to be a big total will just be an ordinary one, because, Malik is not going to play big shots and will try to consolidate his place by remaining not out and adding only 20-30 runs to the max. And, Fawad Alam coming in after a long gap also needs to prove his worth and he may not be taking chances as well. Abdul Razzaq, you cannot tell anything about him, he may be devastating or mediocre. At the moment the score is stuck @ 104/4

  221. #221 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:02 PM

    Why is Vettori not playing? Anyone knows? (sorry I am not following the news)

  222. #222 by Awas on November 12, 2009 - 5:07 PM

    Javed

    For T20 this is just about the perfect eleven except for Malik. Good to see Fawad Alam in. Perhaps Afridi should be captain for all three formats 🙂

  223. #223 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:10 PM

    Malik was trying to keep his place in the team by his negative batting in T20 six singles from six balls and finally tossed up a simple catch back to the bowler. Redmond who hardly get wickets, got 2, one of Afridi and now Malik. Only 5 overs remaning and Pakistan are 117/5 they may not even make 150 at one stage it appeared that they may reach 170-180 easily.

    If Pakistani bowlers cannot stop Brendon McCullum and Ross Taylor they have had it.

  224. #224 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:15 PM

    Awas on captaincy, read my comment above with two suggestions.

    As regards Malik, it is good that Afridi has not dropped him from the team to prove that he is such a worthless and a selfish guy. His demise should be based on his own performance and not from any other way and that way he won’t be able to come back. But a cat has nine lives !

  225. #225 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:20 PM

    BOND strikes again. He got Fawad Alam. Only 15 balls left and the total is 134/6 and they have sent Tanvir ahead of Mohammad Aamir, who is in good form, he should have been ahead of Tanvir.

  226. #226 by Awas on November 12, 2009 - 5:20 PM

    Javed

    Yeah I agree.

    I have always said Afridi is my second choice after Younus.

  227. #227 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:25 PM

    Unlike Malik, Fawad Alam did not threw away his wicket, here is a quote from cricinfo commentary:

    “17.2 Bond to Fawad Alam, OUT, short, Butler, who’s had a bad day today, ends up taking a sharp catch at third man, it was cut hard towards him but he managed to cup it in front of his face, slipped and crashed on his back but held on.”

    So, it shows that it was a very sharp catch unlike Malik who looped it back to the bowler. And, the irony is no one will see or compare the circumstances or even the difference in score of both these players and they will say Fawad Alam didn’t do much whereas, he scored more than both Akkus and Malak. And, Malik will sneak in quietly as always for yet another match.

    Now, with Tanvir in balls are being wasted. so far 3 runs in 7 balls. Will Pakistan make 150 from here?

  228. #228 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:38 PM

    Too late to go for the assault. Abdul Razzaq didn’t get much chance to play in the end, not enough balls, the last two balls of the penultimate over from Butler he played, he hammered for a six and a four to change the equation and that prompted Tanvir to do the same in the final over, But, it is not possible to take it till the end until and unless you have the experience and Tanvir was out after 2 big shots and Abdul Razzaq managed to play only one ball from the last over. Anyways 161 is not a very defendable total, New Zealand without Vettori can manage unless Afridi and Ajmal restricts them. But, before that they need to get Brendon McCullum and Ross Taylor first.

  229. #229 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:50 PM

    The chase has started and first two balls from Aamer were excellent and the next four balls ended like this:

    0.3 Mohammad Aamer to BB McCullum, FOUR, Dropped McCullum swivels and hooks and the ball is in the air for a long time, Tanvir was forward at fine leg and he ran back to take the catch and ended up palming it away towards the rope, one bounce and four.

    0.4 Mohammad Aamer to BB McCullum, FOUR, crack! He gives him width outside off and he rolls his wrists and thumps it past backward point

    0.5 Mohammad Aamer to BB McCullum, 5 runs, overthrows! McCullum taps it towards cover and sets off for a quick single, Nazir‘s throw at the bowler’s end is fast and the fielder at mid-on dives but the ball beats him and runs away.

    0.6 Mohammad Aamer to Guptill, FOUR, inside edge! Lucky escape for Guptill as the ball trickles away past the stumps and down to fine leg — 17 runs of the first over

    That is not the end Tanvir too is getting whacked and in 4 balls so far he has given away 8 runs. my WORD he just got Guptil’s wicket.

  230. #230 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 5:57 PM

    The two most dangerous NZ players are on the ground and Taylor smashed the first ball he faced for a four and what a start for NZ 29/1 in 2 overs. If Pakistan gets these two early, the match is over. Otherwise, it would be a good chase and an interesting one to watch. Tanvir dropped McCullum and will have to pay a price for it.

  231. #231 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 6:00 PM

    Aamir got McCullum, nice come back from the youngster, just a four in his second over and he kept bowling tight and in the end McCullum gave a catch to Fawad Alam who said THANK YOU to McCullum as he didn’t have to move and took a simple catch.

  232. #232 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 6:10 PM

    THAT’S IT !

    Aamir got Ross Taylor too and NZ are a gone case from here. They are stuck on the score of 34/3. Even Tanvir bowled his last over very well and gave only one run. The pressure is getting on NZ.

    One ball before Taylor was out, this is what happened, read cricinfo comments, because they will not be in the records:

    “Mohammad Aamer to Taylor, no run, lousy cricket from both teams and Pakistan will regret this, Taylor taps it to cover and sets off and there’s lot of uncertainty in the running, Styris took a pace out of his crease but wasn’t interested in the single, Taylor was already half way down and and he was sent back, Malik wasn’t sure whether to throw directly at the stumps or relay it to a fielder, there was nobody at the stumps and the throw was way over the stumps.

  233. #233 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 6:33 PM

    Here comes out of form NISWAR GUL ….. NZ were under pressure and weren’t scoring but Gul has given them ample opportunities to score, 14 runs from his first over. I think Afridi must introduce spin now and keep Gul for the death overs. So far Razzaq is very economical and even got his old mate Styris. Now he even got his second victim in Broom. So, after Razzaq completes the 11th over Afridi and Ajmal should bowl the next 8 overs between him and Ajmal. There is no dearth in bowling department. “I am agree” with Awas, a perfect T20 team except Malik.

  234. #234 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 7:05 PM

    Its ALL OVER now, Pakistan has won the match by 49 runs. Redmond did not bat as he pulled his groin while bowling. An easy win for Pakistan, hopefully tomorrow’s match would be a bit more interesting!

  235. #235 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 12, 2009 - 7:07 PM

    Man of the match MUST be Imran Nazir, but Razzaq’s contribution with bat and ball isn’t bad either. But, I would give it to Nazir for his once in a while excellent batting.

  236. #236 by newguy30 on November 12, 2009 - 8:47 PM

    LOL to Javed #344, good one.

    Omer, there is a guy on Cricinfo who spouts all kinds of statistical nonsense to come up with who is better batsman who is a better bowler so on, I find it all statistical mumbo jumbo, what you are saying now is similar. Are you some sort of Wall Street guy who works on quantitative models to predict financial events? I have no faith in that sort of analysis, primarily because when you twist and massage the data enough, you can make it look any way you want, in other words you can massage the data enough make it look good to prove your point.

    Instead we already looked at data in a straight forward way, and it is does not back up the claims you made about Lara’s higher ability against quality, in fact it showed the opposite. I will even be generous and say it’s a toss up.

  237. #237 by newguy30 on November 12, 2009 - 10:24 PM

    Omer,

    Just want to respond your #341:

    OA:
    Maybe you find Tendulkar’s hundreds more fufilling than Lara’s doubles, triple, and 4 hundreds, so perhaps we can see, who at average, has done better against quality bowling, and who deviates from a standard and how much against quality bowlers.

    NG:
    No, I never said Lara’s doubles, triple, and 400 any lesser. These are great individual accomplishments, and those are well documented facts. I said if you wish to use those as a measure of greatness you have merit in your argument. But I objected your inference that since Tendulkar has not done that, he is not as good as Lara. They have different types of skills, Lara made big hundreds, Tendulkar made more hundreds. You may prefer big hundreds, personally I prefer big and more together 🙂 But Lara is not perfect, he does not have more (hundreds), Tendulkar is not perfect either, he does not have big (hundreds).

    OA:
    Because what you have ferociously argued is that consistency is a better measure, and for every 400, 300 that Lara made, he would have made many smaller scores so that his average converges around 52. In that sense, to you Lara’s 200s, 300s, and 400s have not much appeal.

    NG:
    I did not say this. I said Tendulkar is different from Lara, he is more consistent, but Lara makes bigger hundreds. Like I said the greatest batsman would have made bigger hundreds and he would have been consistent. A combination of the two would have been perfect. All I have done is to show that you have used incorrect statements on their capability based on impressions and not on facts. You made many accusations that Tendulkar scored heavily against Lee after McGrath retired, his average went up by 4-5 runs against minnows so on. But I showed that Lara did the same, he scored more without McGrath, and he scored 4-5 runs more at home. While you play down the 4-5 runs Lara made at home as trivial, you bring up Tendulkar’s 4-5 runs against minnows as major fault. To me both are important parameters to judge quality. A lot of players are lions at home, but sheep when touring. Youvraj Singh is a great example. But Tendular is a lion on tour. I am not inferring Lara is a sheep on tour, but he certainly has been a lion at home, and less so on tour.

    OA:
    Because to win a test match is a big deal and it is big scores that win test matches. Besides this, players who average more than 50, it is much rarer to find someone who deviates more rather han less (like Sehwag, Lara). On the consistency side, you can find many more like Mohd Yousof, Tendulkar, Kallis, Younis Khan, Jayawardena, Michael Hussey, Ponting, and on and on. I’d much rather reward brilliance more than consistency.

    NG:
    To win a test match is a big deal, but you seem to think a single batsman can do this. A single bowler surely can win a test match by running through the batting line up, but for a single batsman it is so hard. Do you know how many times Australians dropped Lara when he made that 153 in Barbados, the innings that everyone show as classic example of Lara’s match winning capability. What if Ambrose could not hold on for as much as he did, and do you know what kind of a batsman is Walsh, he faced a full over, before Lara could hit the winning runs. So he was surely helped there, I don’t want to take that away from him, but he surely was also lucky that day. And to me, a batsman who plays consistent can help win matches more than a player who cannot be trusted. Besides there are always 5-6 other batsmen to make a huge score, you don’t need one guy blasting 300. In that 300 Sehwag made surely did help India set up a win in Multan, but it was the bowlers, either Kumble or Harbhajan, or both that made it possible. So wins are made by 11 players, and when it is one or two individuals it’s certainly bowlers.

    OA:
    Unfortunately, Lara hasn’t played against Walsh and Ambrose, and Tendulkar hasn’t played against Harbajhan or Kumble, so we can’t use them in the comparison. What might have happened, your guess is good is mine. But that would be pointless.

    NG:
    That should not matter. We are looking at quality bowlers in each style. Pace and Spin. In Pace we have Donald, McGrath, Wasim, Waqar, Walsh, and Ambrose, ok Pollock too if you insist. In spin we have Warne, Murali, and Kumble, I’ll throw in Harbhajan too, but optional. You cannot omit Kumble he has taken more than 600 test wickets, and you cannot omit Walsh and Ambrose. These are premier bowlers of their time. It does not matter if Lara did not play Waslsh/Ambrose or Tendulkar did not play Kumble/Harbhajan, you compare them with other bowlers of their type to get good statistical sample. Otherwise you are falling to the fallacy of small statistics. Here is an example, you may say I know 100 people, but none of them are Chinese, so there must be not be very many Chinese in the world. Similarly you may say – look Lara played Murali well and he played Warne almost as well as Sachin, so he must be very good in Spin, but you have to include more spinners to the mix to get a greater sample. Same for pace bowlers.

    If you are objective then you should do this, otherwise no point, you are only trying to make you view accepted as the fact.

  238. #238 by khansahab on November 12, 2009 - 10:36 PM

    Ex-manager opposed Younis captaincy

    Islamabad: Pakistan team manager Yawar Saeed joined current and retired players in voicing concern over the captaincy in the leadup to Younis Khan’s decision to stand down for the Test series in New Zealand.

    The Pakistan Cricket Board appointed middle-order batsman Mohammad Yousuf as captain for the three-Test series against New Zealand on Wednesday after Younis asked for a break from international cricket.

    Younis needed serious leadership counseling,” Saeed wrote in his manager’s report following the Champions Trophy in South Africa last month, according to local reports Thursday.

    Without consistently instilling captaincy qualities into Younis, daily The News quoted Saeed as saying, “he cannot prove a good captain altogether.”

    The team manager blamed a lack of coordination between Younis and coach Intikhab Alam during the Champions Trophy in which Pakistan lost its last group match in the last over to eventual champion Australia and then went down in the semifinals to New Zealand.

    “Younis was not willing to take up the cricketing issues with coach and manager and wanted to do everything on his own,” the report said, adding that at no stage during the semifinal against New Zealand did the captain and coach consult over strategies.

    Cracks begin to appear within the Pakistan team soon after players returned from South Africa.

    Eight players expressed their dissatisfaction over Younis’ leadership and lodged a complaint to PCB chairman Ijaz Butt and to the team’s vice-captain, Shahid Afridi.

    Last month, after rejecting Younis’ resignation letter, the PCB re-appointed the 31-year-old batsman as captain through the 2011 World Cup provided he remained fit and in form. That tenure lasted just 24 days before Younis needed “break” from international cricket and Yousuf was selected as Pakistan’s third captain this year.

    “I feel as if I have no command over this team. And if a leadership has no command over its players, what is the point of continuing to lead?” Younis said.

    Younis admitted that he’d struggled for form in recent times. Pakistan lost a limited-overs series 2-1 to New Zealand in Abu Dhabi on Monday, with Younis scoring only 0, 19 and 3.

    He attributed that to distractions “not just with cricket but all that has happened outside it. I need time to get myself together now.”

    It is not the first time that the Pakistan captain has been sidelined by an unhappy group of players. Javed Miandad stepped down in 1981-82 soon after leading an inexperienced team, then Imran Khan took over.

    Miandad was again pushed out in 1992-93 and Wasim Akram took over. In 1994, the players revolted against Akram, too.

    The PCB has given no time frame for Younis’ return to international cricket — nor has it clearly stated whether Yousuf will also lead Pakistan in three Tests in Australia next month.

    Afridi said on Wednesday that Younis should have continued to lead the side in the Test series against New Zealand to regain his lost form.

    “I think he should have stayed because the only way you can regain your form is if you play international cricket,” Afridi said.

    Younis, who averages 50 per innings in 63 Test matches, had set few goals when he was appointed as captain after Malik lost the one-day series at home to Sri Lanka earlier this year. Beating Australia in Australia was one of his targets.

    It remains uncertain whether he will make the tour to Australia at all, either as captain or batsman.

    In one-day internationals, he averages 33 in 197 matches but hasn’t scored above 20 in his last six innings.

    ————————————
    So there were 8 players who voiced concern over Younis’s captaincy. I am sure Umar Gul is not one of those 8, being a very close friend of Younis.

  239. #239 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 13, 2009 - 12:09 AM

    khansahab

    Among the 8 players you ruled out Umar Gul, you better rule out Shahid Afridi also because, even now he is saying that “Afridi said on Wednesday that Younis should have continued to lead the side in the Test series against New Zealand to regain his lost form. “I think he should have stayed because the only way you can regain your form is if you play international cricket.”

    Miandad was opposed not once but, twice and he had to step down to keep playing for the country. There is a big difference between him and Wasim Akram. Miandad’s leadership was in question because of regional bias. Whereas, Wasim Akram was pulled down for altogether different reasons. He was openly involved in betting and was using his power, influence and authority over other players and asking them to obey to him and under perform.

    Regarding Younus Khan, I can say that he is an idiot but, he is not involved in betting for sure. He is very honest and loyal to his country and a very straightforward person. But, his honesty, loyalty and straightforwardness has no bearing on the captaincy issue.

    I think if he accepts only the test captaincy and performs in tests then he is fine and he will be respected and no one can do anything to him. And, I think Afridi must be appointed captain for ODI as well.

  240. #240 by newguy30 on November 13, 2009 - 3:19 AM

    Omer,

    I know we have beaten this topic to death, but I keep finding contradictions in your statement as I keep looking for truth in them, so I have to post them. Please bear with me.

    You said Lara made 375 and 400 against England in England, this is not true, they were both made at home, at St.Johns, Antigua, one of the worst test grounds in the WI in terms of positive test results. Both matches ended in dull draws. In other words, Lara’s 300 and 400 both had no effect on the outcome of the match other than put him in the record books. This is really bad, I keep losing respect for the man.

    His record in England is not very good, where as Tendulkar once again trumps him there. England is a place where the ball moves around a lot, and English bowlers are very good in their conditions, it takes a lot of skill to play when there is swing and seam.

    Lara averages overall 62.14 against England compared to Tendulkar’s 61.42, but when we break it up as home & away what do we see?

    Lara averages 48.76 in England against England, Tendulkar averages 62 against England in England.

    Lara averages 77.95 at home against England, Tendulkar averages 60.97 at home against England.

    Lara once again fared poorly abroad when the ball is moving around, and he scored heavily at home to boost his average, where as Tendulkar is consistent, he played slightly better in England compared to his own home record, but beat Lara pants down in England.

    Similar story in New Zealand, another difficult place to play the moving ball. Tendulkar played Richard Hadlee, the ultimate fast bowler, and made an 88 when he was just 16 years old, Lara never played Hadlee so we never know the outcome. In terms of averages, again Tendulkar way ahead in NZ against NZ compared to Lara.

    In India, the final frontier as Steve Waugh said, Lara never made a hundred. His average is in the 30s. Compared this to other West Indian greats, Clive Lloyd made 4 hundreds in India and averaged 75.5, Viv Richards made 3 hundreds in India and averages 45.42. Compared to these men Lara is nothing, leave alone Tendulkar.

    Once again when the pitch is difficult he finds it hard. Swing and seam, slow and low, he struggles.

    Lara made a double hundred against Pakistan, in Multan, another one of the flattest pitches in the world, and the match ended in … no surprise a dull draw 😉

    He has had occasional brilliance, but as I said his 375 and 400 made no difference to the match outcome except record for him, I haven’t checked all of his double hundreds, but a few of them were made in drawn matches. So what is so great about his high scores now? He has played well at home, scored heavily in flat pitches, and struggled on pitches and places that assist swing and seam, spin and bite.

    Tendulkar has succeeded on most conditions over 20 years, started with bowlers like Imran and Hadlee, and now playing Mitchel Johnson and Mendis, he has made hundreds against all test playing nations in their own country as well as at home. There is absolutely nothing that makes Lara better than him.

  241. #241 by newguy30 on November 13, 2009 - 3:42 AM

    Twelve year old boy hits 439!

    Sarfraz Khan a 12 year old scored record 439 in cricket tie, Harris Shield is one of the oldest competitions in India, this is the same tournament where Sachin Tendulkar and Vinod Kambli made a record 632 runs partnership more than two decades ago.

    One of the oldest cricketing competitions in the country, the Harris Shield, got underway yesterday, as school students from across the city donned their whites and headed over to the maidans. And what a run feast the opening day turned out to be. Eight matches on the opening day yielded four centuries and one double ton, as the hapless fielders were sent leather hunting.

    Defending champions Springfield Rizvi set the early pace, amassing 468 runs by close of day’s play, with their batting mainstay Sarfraz Khan making 235. Coach Raju Pathak explained that he was depending on Sarfraz to come up with the goods, as he had rested a few players for this match. “We have a one-day tournament in Baroda next week and I rested four important players in lieu of that. It therefore was imperative that experienced players like Sarfraz play well,” Pathak said.

    Sarfraz wants to follow in Sachin Tendulkar’s footsteps and one day hope to play for India.

  242. #242 by Shoaib on November 13, 2009 - 4:41 AM

    I think it is about time to put an end to this long and meaningless debate on Tendulkar vs Lara, no one will change……..

    Javed: achaaa 😀 really meaningless 😀 to pichley 2 weeks sey sarey log kia cho2so4 ker rahey they kia? 😀 well i havent said anything so yeah……ok

    Lara has been in a lean patch every now and then in his career. He has also been in devastating form at times. But when it comes to consistensy, Dravid and Kallis are way ahead in this regard. I should say, the burden of captaincy, has affected the great man in some way. That was the same reason why Sachin backed off from captaincy. Also, with the big players retired in the West Indies team, Lara is getting very little support from his team. And at times, it can be very frustrating since he is also the captain of the team and is answerable in case of loss.

  243. #243 by Shoaib on November 13, 2009 - 4:45 AM

    i intentionally used the current form of the grammar so i can feel that Lara is still with us lol Laraa i can feel you around here WTF

  244. #244 by Shoaib on November 13, 2009 - 5:59 AM

    As Javed said:

    Regarding Younus Khan, He is very honest and loyal to his country and a very straightforward person. But, his honesty, loyalty and straightforwardness has no bearing on the captaincy issue. I agree he would never play ”satt-ta” like Pakka Jawaari Akram but let me say that younas is a big ”Khotaa”, when he comments about game on the ground and off the ground he adds 40% of diluted shit in his 60% understandable talk.

    Javed Sahab: Afridi didnt drop Malik not to show the world that how useless individual Moon is but he loves Moon so much, they are good friends trust me…….arggg why i am calling him moon, my mum used to call me moon but not anymore. thank God cuz here in UK probably thats girls nick. 😀

  245. #245 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 13, 2009 - 1:12 PM

    newguy

    About 12 years old Sarfaraz Khan hitting 439, I heard this news almost about a week ago. The point is not about making 400 or 500 runs at school level but, it is a matter of playing beyond that level and playing consistently. Vinod Kambli and Sachin Tendulkar started together, but Kambli who was more aggressive of the two and used to entertain the crowd with his stroke play lost his focus and disappeared from the scene. Whereas, Tendulkar is still around. Why is he still around and why has he got more runs than anyone else in the world? Has he got more I. Q. than others? NO, its a matter of commitment and dedication such as Tendulkar’s. Therefore, these young players must learn one thing from him that: ‘its not a matter of I.Q. but, I CAN.’

  246. #246 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 1:32 PM

    Omer,

    I have a fairly good understanding of business stats, I have even done a bit beyond that by performing regression analysis on financial data. But we don’t need to bring that here. BTW, finance is called junk science because it is not based on actual things like physics, I have very low opinion on quants and won’t even compare them with NASA scientists. But that’s a different topic, so I digress.

    The trouble is that you are going all over the place now. Since you can’t win the debate using your original argument you want to look for other reasons. I have to tell you it doesn’t work that way. If this were a proper debate your rating is going way down.

    Let’s stick to the original argument about quality if bowlers faced. As I have showed in my last 10 or 12 posts, clearly there is no evidence that Lara was better player against quality bowling and under different playing conditions, on the contrary he was weaker than Tendulkar under such conditions.

    I laid out numerous examples of this, such as Tendulkar’s higher avrage against McGrath in Australia, Tendulkar’s better record in England where ball moves around, Lara’s weakness in India where the pitches stay low and takes turn, Tendulkar’s better record or equal against Donald, Akram, Waqar.

    I also showed Lara was a heavy scorer at home and fared poorly abroad compared to Tendulkar, there is a clear trend whether you take country by country or overall, again you have nothing to counter that, but you try to brush that aside as trivial. It is not a trivial matter if you ask any serious cricket follower. Scoring heavily at home can be done by many batsmen, but it is scoring in alien pitches and conditions that require mastery. Tendulkar is the master here.

    In the end, there is really nothing you have got to counter those.

    Moreover, you are not fact checking before writing something, this is clear when you said Lara made 375 and 400 against England in England, where as both were made in West Indies, therefore it is very clear you are only going with your impressions, and even after presenting with facts countering that you refuse to let go, why should I even respond to you and this time? There is no good reason, except that I don’t want to leave out the incorrect statements you make stand.

  247. #247 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 1:41 PM

    Javed,

    Sure, I just posted it here as a news item, there is no guarantee any of these youngsters can come up and fulfill their potential. They need commitment. Moreover in India with IPL destroying young people, I don’t see a great future for test cricket in India. IPL money is obscene and rewards plenty for even mediocre performance, they lose the motivation to play for the country and excel internationally.

    Test cricket is dying in India, in fact it always were, they say India is where the market is, but 80% to 90% of this market really do not understand the game of Cricket. They are just there thinking India is the best team in the world or will be the best team, people like Youvraj and Dhoni can do anything, so on. They have no appreciation for the nuances of the game, I am sure most of them won’t even know the difference between a deep square leg and point, let alone the variations a bowler can bowl.

    So the average Indian fan loves sixes and fours and want their team to win, this is why they cannot appreciate when the other team wins. I find this very shameful. This is not how the fans in the early 70s and 80s used to be, Indian’s appreciated cricket much more back then and they appreciated other teams, even today people in South are much more appreciate of the game than in North.

    I don’t know how it is in Pakistan, I am sure a many of them don’t know the game there as well.

    The followers in Australia and England by contrast know the game much better, and this is why Test cricket still draws a bigger crowd and gets celebrated there.

  248. #248 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 2:30 PM

    Omer,

    You said:
    The only thing I know is that, as regards to Finance…a financial perspective wouldn’t favor Tendulkar. With similar averages (returns), the stocks of Tendulkar and Lara would be priced about the same, but when an investor seeks a higher reward, he uses stock options. And, Lara would be a much, much higher priced stock option.

    NG:
    That is your opinion again. I guess what you meant to say is that Lara is a higher risk stock so the investor would demand a higher return, therefore his stock price would be lower, not higher in order to compensate for the extra risk that investor is taking on. But if you really meant Lara would be higher priced stock, then his returns would be much lower, good companies make bad stocks and bad companies make good stocks, this is how it works, contrary to popular belief that given Microsoft and a small business called Bill’s Software Shop, Microsoft would be priced higher by investors because it is a better company, but it’s returns will be lower since Microsoft is a safer bet and hence investors are paying a premium for it. OTOH, Bill’s Software Shop is a risky business, investor would lose all his money, so they drive the price lower in order to get a better return from it, they can buy cheaply and make excellent rewards when it goes up.

    So question is, who is a blue chip, Tendulkar or Lara, or are they both Blue Chips, but one of them misses earnings more than the other 🙂 Investors don’t like companies that miss their earnings, even if they make huge earnings once in a while 😉

  249. #249 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 2:57 PM

    Omer,

    On the contributions Lara made to winning causes, this is another fallacy based on one or two innings, like I said he received support from other batsmen, either in holding one end up, or from bowlers running though opposition.

    Let’s look at stats again – centuries when team won matches:
    Lara 1253 runs in 8 innings at 179 average
    Tendulkar 2345 runs in 16 innings at 234.50

    Lara is placed #32 in this list, Tendulkar is #7, and Don Bradman leads the runs again here at #1, in terms of average though Steve Waugh placed #4 has highest at 317.90 in winning innings.

    So, again Tendulkar averages higher in winning matches.

    Lara has one double hundred in a winning cause, just one, against Australia in Kingston against McGrath. I guess this is what you are talking, but he received support from wicketkeeper Jimmy Adams who made 94, and Australia’s second innings they got bowled out for 177 with Perry, Walsh, and Ambrose taking 9 wickets. WI just needed 3 runs in second innings, let’s say Lara only scored hundred less, then WI would need 103 in second innings, still gettable.

    Therefore, bowlers won the match here, or you can say Lara contributed to the match win. But to say he won the match with his sheer brilliance will be insulting the others who contributed, in this case Jimmy Adams with his 94 and Perry with 5 wicket haul in second innings.

  250. #250 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 13, 2009 - 5:38 PM

    I was watching England vs SA live on TV whereas, the Pak NZ match on the internet.

    England, especially Allan Morgan played a beautiful innings of 85 in 45 balls and he remained not out. He was hitting sixes and fours at will. I think one of the sixes he hit was perhaps the longest ever (don’t know how many meters but, it went out of the stadium) and the bowler was Dale Styen. He also hit Albie Morkel and Langevitt for a few sixes. I think 202 is a very good score and England must win this match.

    Pakistan on the other hand could not capitalize and ended up 153/5, only Umar Akmal surviving till the end. What an innings MOON Shoaib Malik played. He calls himself as the best all-rounder of Pakistan. His score in the 2 ODI’s he played and the 2 T20 he played is really pathetic. He needs to be dropped. With Afridi and Ajmal taking control of the spin department, Aamir, Gul and Razzaq are the fast bowlers, there is no need of Malik in the T20 team either. He is such a spent force and a dirty politician who is messing around with politics and revolting, ruining team spirit.

  251. #251 by Varun Suri on November 13, 2009 - 5:40 PM

    LOL at You are saying, I can’t win the debate, while I have won the debate…

    Omer,

    While it might not be clear that who won the debate, but one thing is clear and again confirmed by your digressive responses that debating with you is like as they say in rustic hindi bhains ke aage been bajana!! that’s the reason I stopped arguing with you and most probably khansahab backed out as well but kudos to newguy to take it so far and if you still can’t see reason in his crystal-clear ir-refutable arguments then it’s really pointless to even talk on this subject with you.

    P.S before anybody gets offended I am not comparing you with a bhains but it simple means that no matter what reasons or justifications one might give you are nor prepared to move an inch from your faulty and biased position now what kind of ircorrigible behaviour is that?

  252. #252 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 13, 2009 - 5:41 PM

    Just look at the biased commentary of cricinfo:

    “Umar Akmal paced his innings well and at one stage, when he was going strong with Afridi, it seemed Pakistan would post a total higher than they did yesterday. But New Zealand fought back well at the death, 34 coming off the last five overs, to keep Pakistan down to what is still a pretty competitive score. The ‘hosts’ have a strong seam attack, which did the bulk of the damage yesterday so New Zealand are up against a challenge. Join us in about five minutes for the chase. “

    The match is being played in Dubai, which is a neutral country and how come Pakistan are “the hosts?”

  253. #253 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 13, 2009 - 5:48 PM

    Varun

    Using the same word but, this time with a wrong spelling? 😀 Chorro yaar, he has his views let him express them, its your biased view that you are saying kuddos to newguy but not to him. After all he is also putting up a decent fight and, he has got a point about 7 double centuries and a 375 and a 400*.

    The innings have started and more than Pakistan vs. NZ it is the England vs SA match which is more interesting and SA has already started attacking English bowling with a four and a SIX in the first over.

  254. #254 by Varun Suri on November 13, 2009 - 6:37 PM

    Well 3 wickets in 3 overs and maybe England is back in the game!! Yes. Pakistan seems to be unbeatable in 20-20.

    Jahan tak spelling mistakes ka sawaal hai wo to meri shuru se hi problem rahi hai!!

    I am not biased if I say bravo to newguy after all I am in his camp and frankly speaking I see no logic in Omer’s arguments he is stuck up on few things as it has already been pointed before that scoring 300’s or 400 in a domestic game does not make him bigger than Tendulkar. Period. All the other arguments have been sucessfully refuted by khansahab and newguy so I would not go anywhere near them

  255. #255 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 13, 2009 - 7:14 PM

    Finally Pakistan won the match but with a drama in the end. Umar Gul started his over with a bad ball and it was dispatched for a SIX and then, Franklin’s catch by shoaib malik was inconclusive despite the fact it was taken and then Styris was finally out, caught by Malik.

    Shahid Afridi is lucky that he got away with this, it was a bad decision to remove Ajmal and replace him with Malik. Malik gave away 19 runs in 2 overs whereas Ajmal gave only 24 in 4 overs and took the most important wicket of McCullum also gave only 5 runs in the penultimate over.

    So far under Afridi’s captaincy Pakistan has won all the T20 matches, am I correct?

  256. #256 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 9:37 PM

    OA:
    You are saying, I can’t win the debate, while I have won the debate.

    NG:
    LOL. You saying you won the debate is not enough my dear friend, others have to agree. You haven’t convinced anyone, except Javed Khan who is on your side anyway, and likewise you may say I haven’t convinced anyone except Varun and Khansahab who are on my side anyway. But, what I did was prove your allegations as baseless with the help of data that proves otherwise. This is why you haven’t won anything.

    OA:
    I have told you, by what I consider important, the big 200s, 300s, 400, the quality of runs, matchwinning innings, and the like, Lara was a much better player than Tendulkar.

    NG:
    And I have showed that only one of those big 200 was in a winning cause, rest was all made in draws or losing causes. No proof he is better because of that, he just made merry on flat wickets.

    OA:
    Those aren’t matchwinning 100s, those are 100s in matches won– the figures you have quoted above. If they are matchwinning 100s, show them.

    NG:
    My dear friend, show me Lara’s match winning hundreds, he has only 8 in winning causes, while Tendulkar has 16, you say those are not match winning, I say Lara’s are not match winning. It’s just word against word.

    OA:
    The only reason why I said we could measure consistency is because, if your basis is consistency, then we can find out the truth, whether he was the most consistent or not. By my standards Lara is the best, but even by your standards, is Tendulkar the best?

    NG:
    Go ahead and do what you want with that. But your criteria is proven wrong, by your standard. Just just refuse to accept it. The facts are staring you in your face. Like I said you need to let go of egos and simply analyse it further.

    OA:
    Lara has 7 test double centuries, Tenddulkar has 2 without the minnows. Lara has a 375 and a 400*.

    NG:
    And I showed you these are just numbers in record book, they had no positive influence on the outcome of the matches, except in one case. It was also made on flat pitches, and you didn’t know it was not made in England. At least ackowledge that. You said it yourself, so you should show the decency to acknowledge that much.

    OA:
    Lara has won many matches. Lara has played epic innings, like that 153* above.

    NG:
    Show me, he has 8 hundreds, and he is listed #32 is a long list. If you go on to start defining criteria on which one is match winning and which one is just a hundred in a winning match, you will need to get other people to agree to that. If not they are just your opinions. As for the 153, I asked you to check how many times Australians dropped catches on him, and I asked you whether he could have done it without support from Ambrose and Walsh holding one end up. Forget their bowling contributions, he couldn’t have done it with bat without their support, so it’s a hundred in a winning match as you said.

    Let me tell you one more thing, Lara is not even the greatest West Indian batsman, he was lucky to have played when the other greats like Richards, Lloyd, and Greenidge retired. Otherwise he would not hold a candle to these giants. Lloyd and Richards are far better than Lara. If you want to compare start comparing Lara to Richards first then see where Lara stands in comparison, Richards did not even wear a helmet to fast bowlers and this is during a period when fast bowlers could bowl unlimited bouncers. So do your homework first.

    Again, what you have is a set of impressions and deep rooted beliefs, I have tried diligently to show you factual errors in your statements, but you wouldn’t budge, so at this time I have nothing more to say.

  257. #257 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 9:53 PM

    One general comment from my own life experience on this Lara vs. Tendulkar thing. This is an opinion so I am not asking anyone to count this along with the numerous other posts I made with supporting facts. I will let my factual posts stand on their own merits without anecdotal comments.

    I have travelled to and lived in the West Indies from time to time, specifically Jamaica, Barbados, and Guyana. Many times when I talk to locals when they know I am originally from India, they will start talking about Tendulkar, how great he is and how much they wish to see him play in the West Indies.

    Once I was in a cab, and the driver started talking about Tendulkar, he was so much in awe about Tendulkar and wishing he could watch him play there more. I said you have Lara of course and he is a great, and the cabbie said yeah he’s good matter of fact, but it was clear from his expression that he considered watching Tendulkar even better and even above Lara.

    One thing the Caribbbean folks do not have is false egos and stuff like that, they like somebody they say so, no twisting words to put them down in order to show their own as better. Life is simple to the West Indian folks, eat, drink and be merry is their motto. This is why I used to like their cricket so much.

    Anyway, like I said I don’t want to use this comment as an argument in favor of Tendulkar, just something I have experienced personally in WI, they would never go on an arguement on whether Lara is great.

  258. #258 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 10:29 PM

    Excellent wins from Pakistan. Truly they are an exceptional team in T20. Pakistan has the best T20I record I believe now among all nations. Everything comes good for them, batting, bowling, even fielding. Really impressive wins after the ODI defeat.

  259. #259 by newguy on November 13, 2009 - 10:55 PM

    Omer,

    The only reason I am sucked into replying is because I can’t let your incorrect statements stand. Such as this below:

    OA:
    He is saying that pitches in the West Indies are flat and Lara has performed against Mcgrath in the West Indies, but it is a fact that in the last 10 years or so, the average for runs per wicket in Australia has been the highest. How are pitches in Australia not flat or more flat than the ones in the West Indies?

    NG:
    I didn’t say all pitches in WI are flat, I said Lara made those runs on flat pitches at home, and St.Johns, Antigua is one of the worst in world in terms of results. Take look if you want to. I’ve followed Cricket in WI since 1986, used to listen to radio commentary back then at 2 AM in the morning from India. There are only 5 major test grounds in WI, me and my friends would analyze even before a series what is likely to happen at each ground. When India played WI, we knew India had a chance at Port-of-Spain, Trinidad since the pitch assisted spin there, we would say St. Johns – Antigua, and Georgetown – Guyana will be draws, Kingston – Jamaica, and Bridgetown – Barbados would be WI wins because they assist fast bowling and are WI fortresses. It always ends up that way. And during last 10 years even the pitches that assisted fast bowling has become more batsman friendly. Lara made those 375 and 400 at St.Johns – Antigua, the flattest pitch in WI.

    Coming to Australia, if the runs per match has increased in last decade have you considered it is because of Australian batsmen scoring heavily. Australians have been the heaviest scorers in last decade followed by Indians, so it stands to reason that these two places will see more runs. But have you considered how many matches yielded a result in Australia, I would say it is 9 out of 10. Very rarely would you see a draw in Australia, this is because there is something in the wicket for bowlers, and they always try to win.

    Let’s take pitches in Australia, MCG, WACA, Brisbane are true result wickets, always have been, SCG assists a bit of spin and usually yields a result, Adelaide is the only pitch that is truly batsman friendly, even then it usually yields a result.

    OA:
    It is the quality of the bowling we were discussing, he is bringing things from all over the world, like pitches, which is a totally different thing…then we’ll have to analyze the pitches, and cricinfo has done this before, average per wicket in Australia was the highest and India the second highest.

    NG:
    My dear friend Omer, do you believe that pitches have nothing to do with quality of bowling? if so you are living in a dream world. No matter how good the bowler, if you bring a McGrath to Multan and make him bowl to a Sehwag or Lara they will keep hitting for sixes and fours all day long. So pitches cannot be ignored, it is one of the most important considerations. You have to analyze them.

    Don’t bring Cricinfo into this, they are good for getting stats and following ball-by-ball, I wouldn’t touch their analysis by a ten foot pole. Besides like you said many posts above God has given us brains to think for ourselves 😉

    I showed Lara did not do well in English conditions where the ball moves around a lot. English bowlers are really good in their conditions, heck they won Ashes, and they used to be better than India in the 90’s, so all the runs Tendulkar scored there at 62 average is definitely skillful. Lara averages in the 40s in England, isn’t this really bad? Isn’t this the real reason why you don’t want me to bring in pitches. Quality of bowling and pitches are related. We know helpful pitches can make even mediocre bowlers look like McGrath, let alone what McGrath can do in helpful home conditions.

    OA:
    So, by this logic, even the 30-something that Tendulkar has against Mcgrath must be revised downwards for the sake of pitch quality?

    NG:
    Check your facts again buddy. Tendulkar averages 46 against McGrath in Australia, it is Lara who scores in the 30-something, you are getting your facts confused 😉

    OA:
    Tendulkar’s overal away average is boosted after the retirement of many great bowlers is giving the home and away argument on the basis of 2-3 runs of difference in average. It is not a substantial difference.

    NG:
    Another false statement that I proved wrong. Go back and check my last dozen posts or so. Lara’s home and away difference is huge, not 2-3 runs. Overall there is a 4-5 runs difference, you said yourself that Tendulkar’s 4-5 runs difference against minnows is non-trivial, then how can Lara’s difference home & away by same measure be non-trivial. Besides, if you take places like Australia and England, I showed this difference is even huge.

    Against McGrath he averages 24 runs less in Australia compared to home, he trails Tendulkar by 9 runs against McGrath in Australia, and you still talk about his performance against quality. If pitches in Australia assisted batsmen in last 10 years according to your statement above, then why does Lara average 24 runs less against McGrath in Australia, he did not get the notice that pitches were flat 😉

  260. #260 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 13, 2009 - 11:26 PM

    newguy

    Zardari’s other name is Mr. 10% since when are you influenced by him? 😀 aNO, I don’t get easily convinced by people unless I am really convinced from within. As regards this debate, we all know that Tendulkar’s stats are better than anyone and people believe in numbers and they quantify it numbers, whereas we were talking about and still believe about QUALITY which cannot be quantified.

    When I said, “meaningless debate” I actually meant, directionless debate, because I know that neither party will be convinced by the argument of the other and there is no direction or sequence in the debate. Besides, it was getting too long.

    Its a fact that Lara retired a few years ago, had he continued he may have added a few more centuries and a couple of thousand more runs to his name. But, he preferred to retire and enjoy his life other than cricket. Tendulkar enjoys playing cricket and he is still playing and wants to add more runs to his name and also continue to make more money through advertising, sponsoring etc.

    I prefer what Lara did, because in my career I took a very early retirement from the corporate life, its not that I was unhappy, I was enjoying it, I have traveled all over the world, and flying business class and first class, staying @ 5 star hotels and enjoying good life. But, I left Dubai and came to Canada. I am more happy and more relaxed here.

    Most of my friends are still in the UAE and working. Some of them have sent their children to study here in Canada and in the UK and they are still busy making money. For some money is more important and for some family life is more important. Also, some people don’t mind being employee for the rest of their life but, some people like me, like to have freedom and in this world there is no such thing as freedom and having your own business gives you more freedom than working for someone. Anyways, this is my personal view and I am quite happy the way I am and I thank God for blessing me with His bounties. If there was one, I would have named it. And, as He says in Surah Al Rahman “Fab-e-aye-a Ala e Rubb-e-kuma Tukaz Zibaan.” Which of the bounties of your Lord will you deny? 😀

  261. #261 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 7:30 AM

    Javed A Khan

    Lara was forced to retire because he could not perform well after 34-35, as most players. Tendulkar is unusual and extraordinary which is why is he still performing at 36. So there is no reason why he should pack his bags like Lara.

  262. #262 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 7:36 AM

    Little chance of me accepting captaincy again: Younus

    Karachi, Nov 14 (PTI) The player rebellion that forced him to take a ‘break’ from international cricket continues to rankle Younus Khan, who says there is little chance of him accepting Pakistan’s captaincy again even if he comes back to the side.

    “Even when I make a comeback to the team, I see little chance of me becoming the captain again,” the senior batsman, who opted out of the upcoming Test tour of New Zealand after admitting to having problems with a section of players, told ‘The Dawn’ newspaper here.

    Younus revealed that he had offered to resign after failing to get control over the tension in the dressing room but the idea was rejected by Pakistan Cricket Board chairman Ejaz Butt.

  263. #263 by Varun Suri on November 14, 2009 - 9:20 AM

    Dear Omer,

    Not only on Cricinfo, Tendulkar is all over the Indian media in the past few days and since I am sure you would not remember it is in this week only when he completes playing Cricket for 20 Years and hence the week long celebration in the honour of yet another Human-God In India.

  264. #264 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 12:38 PM

    Varun

    Two decades of Tendulkar is only a new reason but, for the last 20 years Indian media has been praising, chanting, adoring and idolizing him. And, since the time cricinfo came into existence about 12-13 years ago, they are doing the samebecause it is totally controlled by the Indian business tycoons and the Indian journalists. Some of the gora sports journalists and gora players are also doing that for obvious reasons (money). Unfortunately, very few write about Lara because, West Indies is a poor country and they don’t have that kinda money.

    The celebration of the “Human-God” may have just begun but it will not end till the next century. 😀

  265. #265 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 12:57 PM

    Omer

    He retired because of that last year’s average. You can try and disguise his relatively poor performance by saying it was probably political, but I remember very well he was forced to retire by fellow players and officials who were saying he was past his prime.

    In ODI’s he was averaging 32, 29, 31 and 39 in his last 4 years. I know you tend to focus on Test cricket which I agree is a more weighty indicator of talent, but I was talking about allover performance. In fact if Tendulkar should retire it should be in Tests, so that he can prolong his ODI career because he is still in the top 10 batsmen.

  266. #266 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 1:27 PM

    khansahab

    I think it is very wrong to say that Lara was forced to retire, no one forced him to retire and he was the lone performer in that weak WI team. Therefore, he was under pressure with the batting as well as captaincy burden. Whereas, Tendulkar never had that pressure he had, Dravid, Laxman and Ganguly in the team and there was no captaincy pressure.

    And, newguy Lara is 40 1/2 now and he retired from test cricket 3 years ago. So, most players retire when they are 36-37. Like, Inzamam retired around the same age 2 years ago. No one forced Inzamam to retire, he announced his retirement because of the public fear after losing the Caribbean WC.

    India too, lost badly in that WC and Tendulkar was in his worst of forms even before that and in the WC matches barring his 59 against Bermuda, he scored 0 and 7. Indian culture is different where he is idolized and worshiped so he had no fear of losing the WC. Today he is talking about change in batting order that Robin Uthappa was sent before him. But, he would not admit that at that time he was seriously concern about his declining form and there were rumours that he will retire along with Dravid, Ganguly and Laxman rather than getting axed.

    Prior to that India went to South Africa, the 2006-07 series and his batting was under scrutiny and he was struggling against Ntini, Pollock and Nel Out of the six innings he played his highest was 64 and 63 other than that he was out cheaply and even on a duck. Any batsman can fall early, but Tendulkar at that time was more susceptible to something full and straight. Even McGrath said that when he got him out on a duck twice in Australia. And here is a quote from Andrew McGlashan’s article on Tendulkar during the SA tour.

    “As is becoming an increasingly evident he didn’t look entirely comfortable against the short deliveries, with Makhaya Ntini pounding the ball from his wide angle, and his timing didn’t come easily. South Africa deserve credit for operating to clear plans – Ntini and Andre Nel were particularly impressive – but whereas Tendulkar of old would have tried to impose himself, here he seemed almost passive.”

    Tendulkar’s age and debut advantage over others:

    Lara made his debut a year later than Tendulkar and Inzamam made his debut 3 years later than Tendulkar. Tendulkar is younger in age hence he has dual edged advantage, making an early debut and also playing for a longer period of time because of his age.

    Btw, if Jayasuriya can play at the age of 41, Lara could have also played but, we are not talking of ifs and buts here. However we are talking about a possibility and I gave you the reasons in my previous comment yesterday about how people like to see and enjoy their life and even quoted my own example.

  267. #267 by newguy on November 14, 2009 - 2:27 PM

    Omer,

    OA:
    On your second point, if we have to analyze the pitches, then again, at home, Tendulkar played in India and Australia. The runs per wicket in Australia is precisely because the pitches are flat, and the same is the case in India. India’s batting has been good, but even when Pakistan have visited India, scores in the region of 500-600 are common.

    Replying to your last point is redundant given that your above two don’t hold.

    NG:
    No, it isn’t redundant if you meant my question of why then Lara did not score well in Australia against McGrath, and Tendulkar scored 9 more runs than him per innings in Australia in McGrath. It is not redundant, it is contradictory on your part.

    If we follow your argument then it reads – pitches are flat so Tendulkar scored, but you say nothing about why Lara couldn’t score.

    This is why you are contradicting yourself and never directly responding to anything that shows your comments as incorrect.

    You then go into other things, like you want to compare Kallis, Ponting for consistency. We are discussing Lara vs. Tendulkar. Javed Khan called this debate directionless, one of the primary reasons is you keep going into all sort of things without sticking to the discussion, you try to expand into all stock market, NASA, and what not. But you cannot keep the discussion coherent.

    This is why I am done with discussing with you.

  268. #268 by newguy on November 14, 2009 - 3:03 PM

    Javed Kahn,

    Debuting early was not a favor he got, he earned it because of his prodigious talent, he played against Imran, Akram, and Waqar on debut as a 16 year old, and on the very next tour of NZ against Richard Hadlee where he made 88, in fact he was threatening to take over Hanif Mohammed’s record of the youngest player to score a test hundred when he fell 12 runs short. Soon after he scored his 1st Test hundred in Engalnd at age of 17. So he got the advantage because of his special talent.

    These type of comments are what makes your arguments weak, because they are based on emotions and not fair minded evaluation.

    Your favorite player Shahid Afridi made debut at 16 years too, do you think Afridi is still playing because of that .. LOL.

  269. #269 by newguy on November 14, 2009 - 3:15 PM

    VVS Laxman of course is a special player, when he gets going he is better than Tendulkar, Dravid, Sehwag, or anyone else. He is simply unstoppable and there is nothing he couldn’t do. In fact one of the things India had going for them is VVS coming in at #5, even if openers fail and even if middle order goes down, you know VVS is still to come and when he comes in to bat he gives such as assurance and calm that you do not see from Indian players. You know what when he gets going he can quickly put the team into a winning position, or match saving position.

    That 281 he made against Australia is probably the best innings played by an Indian batsman, considering the quality of opposition and the match situation.

    No doubt, a classic. In fact the one thing that Tendulkar’s fans will regret when he hangs up his boots is that he never got to play an innings like this.

    Trouble with VVS though is that he did not score as many hundreds and he usually plays at #5, this worked as a negative for him, while it was a boon to India that he played at #5, he could have scored more hundreds if he played at #3. Unfortunately for Laxman, he played along with Dravid and Tendulkar who stole the show most often. But of the hundreds that Laxman made most of them came in situations when India needed. Even his half centuries were better than some of the hundreds other made.

    His 76 in second innings in Perth test in 2006 helped India set up a challenging total, when Australia was looking to run down the Indian batting in 2nd innings and gain advantage.

    I guess I am giving ammunition to Omer with all this, but anyhow he did what he did.

    Two things that always goes against Tendulkar notwithstanding the fact he made runs against every opposition, in every pitch, against every kind of bowler, is that (1) he could not play a magnum opus like the one VVS played (2) he failed in 4th innings more often than not.

  270. #270 by newguy on November 14, 2009 - 3:52 PM

    JK:
    Btw, if Jayasuriya can play at the age of 41, Lara could have also played but, we are not talking of ifs and buts here.

    NG:
    Jayasurya is swishing outside the off stump like a blind man these days, he has lost his eye/hand co-ordination and his reflexes, if he is lucky enough to connect with one of his swishes he gets a few runs, most often he has failed. SL has demoted him to middle order and he is in the team now as an all-rounder who can bat a bit in the middle order. He is on the last tour, if he does not perform on this tour he is finished. Selectors are being generous to him based on his past deeds, but he is clearly past his expiry date.

    Lots of good players have played until 38, Gavaskar retired at 38 and he was at his best up until then. His last test innings was the 96 he made in the 4th innings in a crumbling wicket in that famous ’86 test against Pakistan in Bangalore. Gavaskar stood between Pakistan’s 1st ever test series win in India on a pitch that was low, slow, crumbling, turning and biting, soon after he fell on the 5th day Pakistan won by 16 runs.

    Imran Khan played until 38, and everyone know he lead Pakistan to their most famous win the ’92 WC and he retired soon after. Even though his bowling was ordinary and he could not bowl many overs, he still kept contributing as a batsman, but it was his captaincy he was there for.

    So long as a player can keep it without looking silly they can play until 38-39, but Jayasurya looks silly now, and Lara has had enough, hie body and mind was not willing to go on.

  271. #271 by Shoaib on November 14, 2009 - 3:58 PM

    Javed,

    With respect i would disagree with the word was phrased as ‘Tableegi Culture’ making jokes about Tableeg is not nice thing to do as it was the culture of Prophet. If someone is not agreed with the actions of some ex cricketers they should be called by their name and shouldnt be linked with religion or religious appearance. I know you said in your comment that you are not hitting the religious appearance and i appreciate that but still you said you dont like Tableegi culture. just would like to mention here that Tableeg is not the culture of culprits and Tableegi culture is nothing to do with current cricket or cricketers controversy. I know its in Asian blood if a person with beard be roguishly sly then we all won’t take a second to make fun of its beard which is wrong as its beard didnt play any sly role in that crime. I understand and probably everone expects that people with beard should be more pious and straight than anyone else which is not wrong but again we shouldnt forget that beard is Prophet’s appearance and culture which we call it Sunnah.

    Hazrat Javed Sahab bhai aaap kon see website we live cricket dekhtey ho, hamey bhi bata dey please 🙂 Kind regards…..

  272. #272 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 4:59 PM

    Javed A Khan

    Tendulkar was the highest run getter in the 2003 WC and his performance as opposed to Lara was miles better in WC 1999. So, the fact that he had a poor WC campaign in 2007 does not mean much, especially because the entire Indian team performed badly. In fact if he had performed in the 3 matches India played in WC 2007, then his critics would have said yet again that he does not play for the team etc, and that, “Look Tendulkar made X amount of centuries but he could not let India progress into the WC”, or something like that. So it seems that poor Tendulkar is stuck.

    Inzamam retired rightly from the WC 2007, but his performance was also pathetic since 2005- he averaged 35 in 2006 and then only 21 in 2007. I don’t see how he could have carried on playing any longer. His reflexes had become very slow and his shot selection and placement had also become flawed. In Test cricket he kept playing because he was considered a saint in Pakistan and many of his fans wanted him to break Miandad’s record of most runs in Test cricket for Pakastan. If he had some integrity or if he played for the team, he should have retired from Test cricket in 2006 because his form had deteriorated drastically after his fantastic run in 2005. I used to say on Pakspin that he has lost form and will not be able to regain it and I received widespread opposition to this, however it proved very true. As it happened he tried his best to break Miandad’s record, but he fell short by 2 runs and then had to retire because he had lost his touch entirely.

    I have always considered Inzamam an overrated player and I consider it ridiculous that he is compared to players like Lara and Tendulkar. I still have some respect for him though, although I lost most of it when he decided to continue playing Tests in order to become the leading run getter for Pakastan in Tests.

  273. #273 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 5:20 PM

    Javed A Khan

    If Tendulkar started his career at 16 and he is still in the top 10 ODI batsmen at 36, then that is something that makes him a greater player than Lara and Inzamam because they were far from being the top 10 ODI batsmen when they were 36. In fact Tendulkar has played for 20 years and he is still an excellent batsman, it shows he has not worn out and mentally and physically he is still good- I don’t see how that fact can be perceived negatively by anyone.

    It is very common for Subcontinental batsmen to debut at 16, 17, or 18- I think many Pakistani openers of late had their debut around 18.

    You have mentioned one series when he was out of form- 2006 was of course the worst year of his career. The way he came back though after 2006 was splendid. It was in 2006 that some of his fans themselves were saying that he should retire, however we know (now) how right he was to not have retired. You have praised Sehwag along with Omer but Sehwag has been dropped at least once for a long period because of poor performance. If Tendulkar had one bad year or 2 or 3 bad seasons it does not seem to prove that he is not worthy of all this admiration showered upon him, because firstly the best players go through bad form and secondly because Tendulkar has hardly ever been in bad form apart from 2006.

  274. #274 by Varun Suri on November 14, 2009 - 5:23 PM

    Javed@393,

    Well, I don’t see any reason why the Media especially the Indian media shouldn’t go gaga about a Batsmen who is probably second to Bradman in the History of the Game!! More so if he is still there playing for 20 Years and still proving his critics wrong whenever they put a knife across his neck!!! Fortunately or Unfortunately Omer and you can go full throttle on LS or for that matter anywhere on the Internet or elsewhere trying to belittle the achievements of the Little Master but that won’t change even an iota for what he will be remembered for.

    As far as Cricinfo is concerned I had already proved you wrong in the previous Blog when you had assumed something what the statistician of Cricinfo (Sambit Bal or whoever) had said about Tendulkar and I had also posted the recent article done on Tendulkar which, contrary to your belief was actually a critical analysis of Tendulkar.

    If you are so fed up of Cricinfo Why don’t you try to rival that website with one of your own probably LS? This Indian domination in Cricket might or might not be a good thing for Cricket but this is something which you will have to get used to in the future and not only in Cricket but other fields as well …ab kya karen apni aabadi hi itni hai

  275. #275 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 5:51 PM

    Javed A Khan

    I may have related this incident to you previously via e-mail, but I want to mention on a public platform today why I take this Inzamam issue seriously.

    When I was at university I used to visit this takeaway regularly at lunch and at times I used to see these 3 friends talking. One could always hear what they were saying because they used to talk very loudly in Punjabi, and they were extremely uncouth.

    It is during this time that I heard statements like, “Sadday Inzmam di waddi izzat hogai hui hai team dey andar”, “Inzmam ko BC Miandad da rekaard torna chahiye”, “O jee Miandad BC da rekaard Inzmam torey ga, BC mutterwa Miandad etc”. They had such hatred for Miandad, seemingly only because Miandad was from Karachi and “mutterwa”.

    They also used to discuss politics and say, “BC Musharraf Karachi wala” and “O Jee Mian saab nu Punjab wach wadda kaam kiya si” and “O jee Mian Shahbaz Sharif ko Allah tala jannat bakshay”…….things like that.

    So that made me perceive Inzamam to be a regional icon- if his fans wanted him so desperately to break Miandad’s record simply because they hated Miandad. Their conversations were filled with hate for Urdu Speakers and I had hardly ever seen such hatred before from anyone. It made a lot of impact on me, the things they used to say and I have never seen Urdu Speakers criticise Punjabis in such disrespectful, dehumanising and disgraceful manner.

    As I said, I still respect Inzamam and consider him a great player, although not in league of the Laras and Tendulkars.

  276. #276 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 5:55 PM

    Shoaib

    Picking up half the sentence is not a good way to make a point. You wrote that I said, “I don’t like the tableeghi culture.” Whereas, my full sentence is: “I certainly don’t like to see this Tableeghi culture in the dressing room or on the ground. It is farcical and phony. There is a big difference in what you claim and what I said.

    To me it appears very farcical and phony when all the players gather up on the stadium to say their prayers – ba jamaat – in public view and in the camera view on the ground just before the start of the match, so that the whole world should see them and say, how pious?

    And it also appears to me very farcical and phony to call for a prayer (Azaan) in a public airline during the flight and then, 20 people stand up for a prayer ba-jamaat in the small area at the rear only to show off that they don’t miss a single namaaz. Actually it could be dangerous to do that because, so many people standing in one area could tilt the balance of the aircraft.

    Couldn’t they say their prayers quietly in the dressing room instead of saying on the ground? Or, they could have quietly remained on their seats in the aircraft and say their prayers like most of us do? Why this ba-jamaat business? This is not only show-off but, it is rather imposing yourself on others and for some people this kinda behaviour is repulsive.

    Instead of discussing the game plan and strategies in the dressing room to counter the opposition if they start a religious discussion and give a religious sermon then, it is silly and those who are doing are stupid because, there is no need for that. There is a place and a time for everything. You don’t eat your dinner in the toilet and you don’t pee in your living room. That is my point that Inzamam & Co, were ridiculing the religion themselves others are only laughing and taunting at them.

    If he had gone to the dressing room quietly to say his prayers, whoever wanted to join him would have joined and this way he would have had more respect. It was not just that, it was more than what meets the eye. Inzi was so strict that those who were not following him for prayers, he used to warn them and not befriend with them and even dropped them from the team. Some players have openly admitted this. P.J. Mir who was the manager of that team also mentioned it in his report and it is all documented and came in the press too.

    And, please don’t taunt at me by calling me Hazrat all of a sudden and then adding a smiley face. Also please don’t remind me about the importance of beard in Islam and about our Prophet or Sunnah. Because, I know what is more important? Just a beard or moral values. And, discussing this subject is like opening Pandora’s Box. So, just leave it here.

    I do respect people the way they are. I like Inzamam’s batting and I like Wasim Akram’s bowling but, I cannot be worshiping them like people worship Tendulkar and I never hesitate in calling a spade, a spade. I know that we all have flaws and we all have deficiencies and no one is perfect except for Allah. And, don’t assume I am angry if I am not adding a smiley face here. Thanks.

  277. #277 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 6:11 PM

    Varun;

    I was busy replying to Shoaib and I have to go in a while so I will be brief on Tendulkar and cricinfo coverage. However, on that apni AABADI hi itni hai comment, could you please verify the population of India. Is it 1.2 or 1.1 billion people?

    Because, a few days ago at a gathering the usual discussion on cricket and politics someone mentioned about the population and figures were quoted by a few and when total populations were being discussed and compared between India and Pakistan, some said Pakistan’s population is 160 million and some said it is 170 million and about India it is 1.1 or 1.2 billion people. But, someone mentioned a staggering figure of the homeless population of India as 350 million? If this is true, it is twice the population of Pakistan.

    I will get back to you later, also will reply later to khansahab‘s latest comment on regional biases.

  278. #278 by Shoaib on November 14, 2009 - 6:13 PM

    Javed Sahab,
    I put a smile in my comment to make my comments more polite to you like if i had said something which you felt a bit strong then this smile can dissolve such feelings, man i wasnt either being sarcastic, did you never hear in dramas or discussion when people say ‘Hazrat aap meri baat suney naa…..’ to give respect others, Hazrat is like Sir, Sahab, Bhai jee, etc etc 😀 chill bhai jee and i apologize if my smiley face or calling you Hazrat caused you any offense…….and yes probably we should leave this topic here cuz i know here its not easy job to bring everybody together in one brain 😀 which is certainly good thing, and shows and make dialogue more interesting. Dont think I am leaving this topic here means i have no points to score 😀 regards

  279. #279 by Varun Suri on November 14, 2009 - 6:17 PM

    Javed

    You needn’t worry about the homeless people in India rather you should worry about the people who have not only homes but also power and influence and what not and that only time will tell that who has the lathi and whose is the bhains if you know what i mean?

  280. #280 by Shoaib on November 14, 2009 - 6:18 PM

    Sorry ignore the last one as i was posting it from mobile phone and clicked send wrongly before i could finish it properly.

    Javed Sahab,

    I put a smile in my comment to make my approach polite like if i said something which you felt a bit strong then this smile could dissolve such feelings, man i wasnt either being sarcastic, have you never heard or come across in discussion when people say ‘Hazrat aap meri baat suney naa…..’ to just give respect others, Hazrat is like Sir, Sahab, Bhai jee, etc etc….chill bhai jee and i apologize if my smiley face or calling you Hazrat caused you any offense…….and yes probably we should leave this topic here cuz i know here its not easy job to bring everybody together in one brain which is certainly good thing, and shows and makes the dialogue more interesting. Dont think I am leaving this topic here means i have no points left to score 😀 regards

  281. #281 by Varun Suri on November 14, 2009 - 6:19 PM

    Even if I subtract the exaggerated figure of 350 million from the underestimated 1 billion that leaves us with 750 million so that is almost 5 times the population of Pakistan so there is no need to get into this argument anymore…

  282. #282 by Varun Suri on November 14, 2009 - 6:21 PM

    Before you point out it’s 650 million not homesless people so it’s almost 5 times if not equal to that..iI will get back to you with official figures later if you are really interested..

  283. #283 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 6:27 PM

    Shoaib

    I totally agree with Javed A Khan about this phony display of religion that was a feature of Inzamam’s tenure as captain and a lot of players got under this influence such as Afridi, Rana, Mushtaq Ahmed, Azhar Mahmood, Asim Kamal and most importantly Yousuf, who became a Muslim.

    Inzamam is said to have united the players but I don’t know what happened to this unity after he left? Malik became captain and immediately faced stiff opposition from Afridi, Yousuf, Razzaq and Shoaib Akhtar.

    There is nothing wrong with practising your religion strictly, but it is better to practice it indoors than outdoors, because you never know how other people would perceive you. As regards the beard, Javed A Khan recently mentioned very astutely that if people in the time of the Prophet (PBUH) had shaving cream, razors, electrical shavers etc, they would have shaved. Shaving was like self-torture at that time which is why hardly anyone shaved.

    If one wants to practice Sunnah, then one can wear the long Arabic dress Chuga at all times, ride on camels and eat dates all the time. But, in today’s world these things are barely practicable.

  284. #284 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 6:29 PM

    Varun

    I don’t understand how having 5 times more population than Pakistan is something very nice or worth mentioning? Please elaborate on what you meant- I am not arguing anything with you, just wondering what you were trying to say?

  285. #285 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 6:43 PM

    Omer

    If a player has been averaging in early 50s for most of his career and then averages 41 in one year, people will obviously see that as a dip in form. If that player is 36-37 and also very visibly losing his touch in terms of reflexes, placement etc then he will be asked to retire. If he was 33 at that time, he would not have taken the decision to retire.

  286. #286 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 6:48 PM

    Omer

    In USA you see more educated and qualified Pakistanis than in the UK. That is because 95% of Pakistani people that came to the UK came to work in mills and factories as cheap labour and they were obviously uneducated.

    Manchester is like little Punjab (as I have mentioned before), so here you feel opinions of politics and cricket are very Punjab-centric. So, in any restaurant, hotel, social gathering etc, anyone can shout and abuse non-Punjabis because you will barely find a non-Punjabi. I think you see more diversified Pakistanis in USA, which is why you have perhaps not seen the bias I have seen.

  287. #287 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 6:50 PM

    Omer

    I understand, but what I am saying is that if he suddenly averages 41 in one year, and he is 37 years old and looking somewhat jaded in form, he will be asked to retire. I am sure NOW if Tendulkar averages 40 in in Test cricket in a year, or 35 in ODI’s in a year, people will suggest he should retire because age is not on his side.

  288. #288 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 6:53 PM

    Omer

    On the point about Pakistanis, here there is a very strong community culture, because Pakistanis live as a concentrated community and most of them have barely any interaction with a non-Punjabi. Most of it is like “ghetto” culture, but even in posh areas you will see women in burkha, or men in shalwar kameez and long beard, barely able to speak a word of English, shouting in Punjabi etc.

  289. #289 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 7:28 PM

    Omer

    I never got carried away against Lara. There is a difference between what you said against Tendulkar and what I said against Lara- I don’t have any problem with Lara but you obviously have a problem with Tendulkar.

    I must refute that point because I never got carried away against Brian Lara- ever since this debate started I’ve said he may be a better batsman than Tendulkar in Tests- that is essentially supporting your point because you have used the example of Test cricket to undermine Tendulkar, which I feel is slightly unfair because the question, “Who is better” is different to the question, “Who is better in Tests”.

  290. #290 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 8:05 PM

    This year Shoaib Malik has made 171 runs in T20 cricket in 11 matches.

    His average has been inflated to 21 because he has remained not out 3 times, but otherwise his average is 11 which is pathetic.

    His strike rate is 103, which is mediocre for a specialist batsman, in T20. His supporters state that he is fulfilling his role as a consolidator, but in T20 consolidating is not enough- you have to attack at some point and improve that strike rate.

    Why is he in the T20 team then? He relies more on luck than ability when it comes to bowling.

    Shoaib Malik is the luckiest cricketer in the world along with Kamran Akmal and neither have them would have been in the team by now had it not been for their ethnicity.

  291. #291 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 8:06 PM

    Varun

    I am not worried about the homeless people or, the mucho rich and nouveau riche people of India. It was a point of discussion then, hence I wanted to verify it with you. You say only time will tell, so what time are you talking about? You mean to say that those who are not homeless in India are going to be a threat for us and we should worry about them? Or, is it something else that I am unable to comprehend. And, yes I know jis ki laathi uss ki bhains, but in what context are you using this expression? You may keep that laathi and the bhains 😉

    Also, I am a little confused about the statement that you made by saying “…….underestimated 1 billion that leaves us with 750 million so that is almost 5 times the population of Pakistan.” What has this got to do with my question? I know area wise also India is probably as many times bigger than Pakistan, my question was not that.

    OK, lets put it this way instead of saying 350 million is twice the population of Pakistan lets say, it is about 33% of the total population of India or, it is a gigantic portion of the population of India that is homeless. The only reason I mentioned “twice the population of Pakistan” is because, that person mentioned it like that. If that is a kinda raw nerve that I had hit upon then, I am sorry to offend you.

    Last time when I went to Pakistan I saw a few hundred homeless people in front of a shrine in Karachi near Clifton which used to be a very, very clean area. Upon asking how come so many homeless people are lying outside on the footpath? I was told that they are all druggies and junkies. And people who come to the shrine, when they are confronted by these people they pay them good money in charity otherwise, they curse them and people who come to the shrines generally have less faith in God and in themselves and they are afraid not to hurt their feelings and get budd-dua or get cursed from them so they give them money. And these junkies they spend it on drugs and keep lying there on the footpaths. Even the police doesn’t do anything because, they take BHATTA (bribe) from these druggies.

  292. #292 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 8:21 PM

    Shoaib

    People make fun of people and not of religion per se, unless “you provoke and badmouth my religion I provoke and badmouth yours.” By you, I don’t mean you. And, I am sure you must be knowing who Jehovah’s Witness are? Even the very orthodox Christians make fun of Jehovah’s Witnesses by saying, “they come to your door, ring the door bell and when you open the door, they don’t know what to talk about”.

    People make fun of Dalai Lama by saying that dude is so dud that if you say anything he is laughing and even if you say nothing he is still laughing like a Lama. Or like one of my friends said; he laughs like, “jaisay maindkee ko zukaam ho gaya.”

    Dr. Edward De Bono wrote in one of his books perhaps it is, “Six Thinking Hats” and also in one of the seminars that I had attended, he said that, “the Buddhist monks rotate the prayer wheel on which the prayers are inscribed and they are allowed to think of anything like, laundry list.” I interrupted him by saying, the monks wear a piece of saffron cloth which is hardly any laundry so you can give us another better example. People started laughing and he said, NO, I can’t change it now because I wrote this example in one of my books. Then people started laughing even more.

    Last year in Ramadan during the Tarvih prayers, when the last few chapters were being recited the ayats were small and the prayers were over much before the previous nights. Someone I know he actually told the Imam: ‘today you finished the prayers so early that I was unable to do the accounting for my one shop, generally I used to do it for all my 3 shops.’ People around him started to laugh but, the moulvi didn’t get the joke and started lecturing the man. So, it is a matter of perception also it depends on, where you coming from?

  293. #293 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 8:41 PM

    On khansahab’s earlier comment on regional bias, Omer and Awas both have commented and expressed their views. And, I do agree that among every nation, every culture, people from all religious background there are good and bad people. By saying and agreeing with this I don’t mean to disagree with khansahab that there is no bias between Punjabi and Mohajir and Punjabi and Pathan etc.

    In Punjab the way biases are expressed are very crude and unrefined they say it not only loudly but by adding a few Maa Bahen ki gaaliyaan, so it appears even worse. But, bias in any form is not good be it crude, loud or gentle and refined no matter what bias is a bias.

    About saying things in a nice and benign and crude way here is an example of two people asking the same question from a passerby:

    1. One person asks the same question by saying, “excuse me, could you please help in finding the way to Times Square?”

    2. The other person would say: Sh*t man, where is this F’king place called Times Square?

    Caliph Haroon Rashid had a dream that ALL his teeth had fallen off. He asked his wise people to interpret his dream and one person said, it means ALL your relatives will be dead and you will be left alone. He got very angry and asked for a second opinion and the next wise man said the same thing and Haroon Rashid was even more upset. Then he called the third person – who by then knew what the problem is. He said, “Sir – it means you will have a longer life as compared to your other relatives.”

    He said the same thing but in different words. Words make a big difference.

    One person said, these holy books and holy words are nothing but just a farce, by quoting words from holy books makes no difference it doesn’t have any affect on me. The person who heard this man saying, said, “Array tum baray BC ho aur baray hee Ch2So4 ho, BC tum itni seedhi baat nahee samajhtay?” The man upon hearing the bad words that were being directed towards him, got very upset and came to hit this man………

    The man said, hold on, hold on, wait for a second…… These are also just words, why are you so upset upon hearing them? 😀

  294. #294 by Awas on November 14, 2009 - 9:15 PM

    Javed

    “…I don’t mean to disagree with khansahab that there is no bias between Punjabi and Mohajir and Punjabi and Pathan etc.”

    I disagree…no biases please 🙂

  295. #295 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 11:05 PM

    Now, lets talk about tomorrow’s T20 between England and SA. Most SA fans believe that SA is unlucky to become a victim of rain and D/L method.

    Although on paper it seems like one run victory for England is nothing, perhaps SA would have achieved the target. I think it was not possible because, it was after 130 when Eoin Morgan and Collingwood made a big difference in the scoring rate. 75 in 7 overs seems possible on paper but, in reality after the SA wickets went down especially Loots Bosman, Smith and Duminy the chances of achieving this target was remote. Anyways, lets not discuss this but see what Morgan will do tomorrow?

    The SA players have tried to play mental games by saying they have a plan for Morgan, yeah may be they may have but, if he plays like that he will destroy all their plans. The humongous sixes that he scored against Dale Styen and Albie Morkel were amazing one gave away 40 runs in 4 overs the other 33 in 3 overs.

    The SA crowd at Wanderers is more or less like Indian crowd, they were not cheering or applauding Morgan’s sixes but they were going wild when Bosman and Smith scored sixes. Also, no clapping for England upon SA batsmen getting out. That’s a shame. (only the paid cheer leaders were dancing but the crowd was very biased.)

    Awas, I know you were joking but, see what I mean by biases, it exists everywhere there are no boundaries and no limits. If it is not regional it is religious and if it is not different religion even in the same religion there are differences and biased opinions.

  296. #296 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 11:12 PM

    Omer

    The following players have made triple hundreds but they are hardly considered in the league of TLP (Tendulkar Lara Ponting):

    Jayasuria
    Taylor
    Gooch
    Inzamam
    Sehwag
    Gayle
    Younis

    To me the highest score in an innings is not a weighty indication of ability. I don’t see how the highest score in an innings can sound very impressive to you, but the amount of times a batsman has reached 3 figures does not sound impressive to you. Saeed Anwar shares the record for the highest ODI score but he is not considered in the league of TLP, although he was a great player in his own right.
    I mean, I can say for instance, that so what if Lara has gone past 300 twice- Tendulkar has made a hundred 42 times in Test matches. How does determination to score big sound more impressive than determination to score a hundred? So if Lara was determined to score really big and achieved that, let us praise Tendulkar for his determination to score centuries because he has done that 42 times as opposed to Lara’s 34.

    I know a criticism of Tendulkar is that he has not made a triple century, although I don’t think triple centuries or double centuries matter (a big score according to the match situation is what matters and that cannot be pre-quantified as a triple hundred or double hundred).

  297. #297 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 11:14 PM

    OK Awas, here is a change of subject; :D………. may be Sweetie will pop in here and we will open the door for her. 😀

    Men strike back!
    How many men does it take to open a beer?
    None…. It should be opened when she brings it.
    ———————————————————–
    Why is a Laundromat a really bad place to pick up a woman?
    Because a woman who can’t even afford a washing machine
    will probably never be able to support you.
    ———————————————————–
    Why do women have smaller feet than men?
    It’s one of those ‘evolutionary things’ that allows
    Them to stand closer to the kitchen sink.
    ———————————————————–
    How do you know when a woman is about to say something
    smart? When she starts a sentence with ‘A man once told me….’
    ———————————————————–
    How do you fix a woman’s watch?
    You don’t. There is a clock on the oven.
    ———————————————————-
    If your dog is barking at the back door and your wife is yelling at the front door,
    who do you let in first?
    The dog, of course He’ll shut up once you let him in.
    — ——————————————————–
    Scientists have discovered a food that diminishes a woman’s
    sex drive by 90%. It’s called a Wedding Cake.
    —————————————————-
    Why do men die before their wives?
    They want to.
    ——————————————————
    Women will never be equal to men Until they can walk down the street with a bald head And a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

  298. #298 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 11:30 PM

    khansahab

    You are missing the names of Jayawardene, Hayden, Sobers, Hutton, Bradman, Hanif, Hammond, Simpson etc. Anyways, the point is if you ask Tendulkar would he be happy to have scored 300 plus? Do you think he would say NO? His determination and will gets stuck at every milestone, 49, 99, 149, 199, 249 which he couldn’t reach.

    Hanif Mohammad’s determination could be seen from his 970 minute innings, which is the longest in Test cricket and so far in 51 years, it is the only instance of a Test triple century scored in a team’s second innings.

    Ps.

    For those who might criticize him for playing for a record must know that he was playing to save the defeat because, Pakistan had a follow-on and that was some revival. They saved the match it ended in a draw.

  299. #299 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 11:33 PM

    ‘Iss ladke par Allah ki deen hain’

    Abdul Qadir

    A lot of Indians believe I started admiring Sachin Tendulkar after he hit me for those sixes in an unofficial match in Rawalpindi in 1989. But that was not the case.

    The first time I saw him, I kept staring at him, because his eyes shone so brightly! I had not seen any human being whose eyes shone like his.

    I told one of my teammates, perhaps Wasim Akram, “Lagta hai iss ladke par Allah ki deen hain, aankhen kaise chamak rahi hai uski.”

    Before that tour of the Indian team, we learnt a 16-year-old schoolboy would be a part of their squad. I remember chatting with Imran Khan, who wasn’t sure if that lad would get to play a single match.

    “He’s coming probably to get a feel of things,” Imran told me. Well, that schoolboy — Tendulkar — played every match and how!

    Initially, the Pakistan team was not very excited about him. After all, with Imran around, it was not easy for outsiders to impress us. But he earned our respect after standing up to Waqar Younis despite taking a blow on the nose.

    Now, Waqar was so quick, everyone dreaded facing him in the nets as well. And for Tendulkar to continue with a bleeding nose was mind-numbing. This kid was made of steel.

    My direct confrontation with Sachin occurred in an exhibition match at Rawalpandi. Actually Rawalpindi was supposed to hold an official one-day match. But due to rain the match was called off. Both captains, Imran and Krishnamachari Srikkanth, agreed to play a 20-over exhibition match to please the crowds.

    You can call it the first Twenty20 match involving India and Pakistan. Batting first, we scored 157. When Sachin came in, India had lost a couple of early wickets. They required more than six runs per over. Srikkanth was batting at the other end but he was struggling against our pacemen.

    Sachin hit Mushtaq Ahmed, new to international cricket like him, but he didn’t come up against me immediately as I bowled a maiden over to Srikkanth.

    Now, Mushtaq was my student and to prop him up, I told Sachin, “Why are you hitting little boys? If you want to hit, try me. You can be a star if you can hit me for a six.” Sachin didn’t reply, just smiled.

    The next over bowled by me saw the arrival of Sachin the Master Blaster. I bowled a flighted delivery and Sachin hit it for a six. I took it as an insult and bowled the next one slightly flatter, which he blocked. But the third ball, a wrong un, went for a four.

    Delivery number four, five and six went over the ropes and I have to admit, that schoolboy showed me, Abdul Qadir, who the master was that day. India lost that match as soon as Sachin got out, which was the pattern of their cricket throughout the 90s.

    But that was not my last battle with Tendulkar. A year or two after that incident, I clashed with him again, this time in Sharjah. It was a double wicket tournament and Sachin was partnering Kapil Dev.

    Salim Malik was my partner. When Sachin was batting I told him, ‘Remember the Rawalpindi match? Now you are a star and I am the underdog’.

    He needed no second invitation as he hit me for a six first ball. Today, I am pleased Sachin Tendulkar, that little boy with eyes shining like diamonds, has completed 20 years on top.

    This couldn’t have happened to a nicer man.

  300. #300 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 11:35 PM

    Former wicketkeeper batsman Moin Khan said Tendulkar was a perfectionist who would be hard to replace in world cricket.

    “There was perfection in his batting then and it is the same now. Obviously he is a human being and he has also failed many times but overall I don’t think I have seen a bigger batsman then him in my time,” Moin said.

  301. #301 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 11:36 PM

    Javed A Khan

    I intentionally missed those names because they are considered to be great Test players, greater than the likes of Gooch and Jayasuria etc

  302. #302 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 11:36 PM

    khansahab

    It is not deen but dain or dane which means gift in English, God gifted.

    This is quite an old news, I have read it before and imo Qadir sounds like a Ch2So4 to talk about it later. 😀

    Ps

    I mean Qadir is repeating the same story again like an old man just to be in the limelight.

  303. #303 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 11:38 PM

    Vivian Richards: When he is in full flow, the mild-mannered boyish cricketer can look extremely intimidating. If there is a resonance, I find of myself in his batting, it is in that intent he communicates. If I were to make a distinction between Brian (Lara) and Sachin (Tendulkar), it would be to point that Sachin was a more committed individual. He was more consistent in his commitment to the team.

  304. #304 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 11:43 PM

    Omer

    Murali has described Tendulkar as, “There can be no one like Tendulkar”, and, “technical genius”. The latter I think is interesting considering that you wanted to associate the word “technician” with Tendulkar, but not “genius”.

  305. #305 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 14, 2009 - 11:50 PM

    khansahab

    At 11:49 p.m. you seems to be Sleepless in Manchester and busy copy pasting quotes on Tendulkar, you may do that all night 😀 I got to go for dinner now it is 6:49 p.m. here. Good bye, may be Omer will give you company.

  306. #306 by khansahab on November 14, 2009 - 11:53 PM

    Javed A Khan Afridi

    Please give me a break- it’s Saturday! I wish I could afford this luxury on a weekday night…..

  307. #307 by newguy on November 15, 2009 - 12:05 AM

    Omer,

    OA:
    Where is that coming from, buddy? We are talking about Lara here, predict what he might have done at your own peril!
    For all we know another 500 or even a 600 awaited us.

    NG:
    As Javed Khan likes to say there are more BUTTS in that statement and very few “ifs” – so leave it, he has had enough, he wasn’t doing really well, and he went out on a limp.

    OA:
    For a batsman coming up at number 4 (not as an opener or one-down), so many double centuries, triple, and even a 400– it is unbelievable.

    NG:
    Here is where I find you contradicting yourself again and overstating your case. If you leave the hyperbole and the starry eyed narration of Lara’s feats you find other more agreeable with you. You said to Khansahab a few posts above:

    “I don’t see cricket from a romantic or a mythical point of view, after all, despite the many things that it offers, it is eventually just a sport.”

    You said you see it as a sport, and in a sport the primary objective is to win the match, correct? If so, I find you contradicting yourself by saying you enjoy the 375, 400, and the many doubles that had no influence on the outcome of the match. He has only one double hundred in a winning cause.

    So the only way you enjoyed the 375 and 400 is from a romantic or mythical point of view. But I think the truth is you didn’t even follow those matches or those innings closely as they happened, did you? you just read them somewhere and saw it on yourtube later on. I say this because you didn’t even know where those matches were played, you said initially they were played in England. But they were played in WI.

    Once again, you keep contradicting yourself and exaggerating your case, and you understate the case against Tendulkar. This is the primary reason you just can’t get closure.

  308. #308 by newguy on November 15, 2009 - 12:15 AM

    Khansahab,

    Afridi must be getting lured by the IPL millions waiting him 🙂 this is why he spoke highly of Tendulkar 😉 There is news that there is a possibility that Pakistani players will be given clearance by both governments to play in the next IPL.

    But seriously, I think Afridi is a person who speaks his mind, I liked this interview of his where the girl ask him about meeting SRK and listen to his reply:

    Around 2:11 – he looks like easy going guy, and don’t care about what others think of him, but at same time not being disrespectful or arrogant.

  309. #309 by newguy on November 15, 2009 - 12:22 AM

    Khansahab,

    Now, Waqar was so quick, everyone dreaded facing him in the nets as well. And for Tendulkar to continue with a bleeding nose was mind-numbing. This kid was made of steel.

    I saw that series live on TV, Tendulkar even though made only a few runs in that series the runs he made were of quality and he was only 16 then, his skill and determination were visible to everyone, since those days everyone knew he will be a permanent fixture in the team.

  310. #310 by newguy on November 15, 2009 - 12:33 AM

    Omer,

    You said:
    I still haven’t heard from you on how we should measure consistency between Tendulkar, Ponting, Kallis, Mohd Yousof, and company?

    I don’t know – why don’t you go ahead and do it the you wish. To me this has become pointless, since you failed to respond multiple times to my corrections on your many false statements.

    For instance, you still haven’t explained (1) why Lara averages 24 runs less against McGrath in Australia vs. Home, (2) why he averages 9 runs less than Tendulkar against McGrath in Australia when you claim Lara is better player of McGrath (3) why Lara averages less in Australia than Tendulkar while you claim pitches in Australia are flatter (4) Why you consider Tendulkar weaker against McGrath compared to Lara when clearly he averages more against McGrath in Australia.

    When you have answers for these then may be we can consider your question to move into another exercise.

  311. #311 by newguy on November 15, 2009 - 4:32 AM

    Omer,

    I still haven’t heard from you on how we should measure consistency between Tendulkar, Ponting, Kallis, Mohd Yousof, and company?

    Looks like Cricinfo has done that work. See here:

    http://www.cricinfo.com/sachinat20/content/story/434530.html

    The table below compares these eight players on their consistency levels in Test cricket, by measuring the standard deviation (a measure of how close each score is to the mean). Dividing the average by the standard deviation gives the consistency index. Border leads the way with a relatively low standard deviation of 40.20, while Kallis is only marginally behind him. Tendulkar comes in sixth place, and what hurts his numbers is his relatively high number of sub-20 scores – more than 41% of his total innings have been sub-20 scores. Lara, though, is the only one whose standard deviation is more than his average – his consistency index is, consequently, less than one.

  312. #312 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 15, 2009 - 5:47 AM

    newguy

    Afridi has matured a lot not just in his cricketing life but in general too, also he is not shy and like you said, without being disrespectful or arrogant towards others he makes valid points. He is very easy going and straightforward kinda Pathan. But, being a Pathan he is an “akhroat” i.e., whenever something gets stuck in his mind, he doesn’t like to change it. For instance he has decided that he will not play test cricket, which is a wrong decision.

    He must play for test matches also because, his over all average in test is better than his ODI and T20 average and now that his bowling has improved a lot, he can any time replace Danish Kaneria. In fielding too he is better than 80% of the players in Pakistan team. He should realize that it will give him a big boost in his confidence if he performs well in test cricket. If Younus Khan decides not to take up the captaincy role any more then Afridi must be appointed as captain in ALL forms of the game. How long one expects Mohammad Yousuf to play?

    It was Javed Miandad who convinced Afridi that he can play longer innings in test cricket and the century he scored against India in Chennai in which he scored 140 odd runs was because of Miandad who was the coach at that time. And the 56 odd runs in the second innings in Bangalore test plus three crucial wickets he should have been the MoM. But, in both matches he was denied that award. In both the matches Pakistan was the winner. In Chennai Tendulkar got the MoM award for his 134 despite being on the losing side. And in Bangalore, I think Inzamam got for his 180 odd runs in his 100th test or, was it Younus Khan for his double hundred?

    Btw, there is a strong rumour that Javed Miandad will be appointed as the new coach of Pakistan team when they tour Australia this year.

  313. #313 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 15, 2009 - 6:00 AM

    Two decades ago on November 14th the Berlin Wall was knocked off.
    Two decades ago on November 15th Sachin Tendulkar made his debut.

    He must have come from East Berlin 😀

  314. #314 by Varun Suri on November 15, 2009 - 7:23 AM

    khansahab @414,

    In case you missed Javed’s earlier comment where he first mentioned that the number of homeless people in India are around twice the population of Pakistan so I simply retorted by saying that the number of home-ful people are also around 5 times the population of Pakistan!! I did not mean anything else but just I was a bit fed up of his constant cribbing of anything Indian on this website.

  315. #315 by Varun Suri on November 15, 2009 - 7:29 AM

    Dear Javed,

    Thanks for explaining what you meant but I would just say one thing that both India and Pakistan are quite similar the only difference is that in India everything happens at a greater magnitude whether it is the poverty or richness or crime amongst other things and hence in this context I used the AABADI comment because that is India’s biggest Challenge/Problaim (and also sometimes an asset:))in this Century!

  316. #316 by Mohammed Munir on November 15, 2009 - 9:45 AM

    Javed Khan …

    That old guy in the original version of the movie “Golmaal” was called Utpal Dutt. Yes, you are right, he was a natural actor and had big eyes and yes he actually was a Bengali. Here have a look.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utpal_Dutt

    BTW, the main hero in that movie was Amol Paleker who was also a fine actor. That movie had some really nice songs …….. “Aanay Wala Pal, Jaane Wala Hai”, etc.

    PS: One of my favorite Utpal Dutt movie was “Shaukeen”, in which there were three old retired ‘Thurky’ (Shaukeen) friends (the other two old guys were A. K. Haingal and Ashok Kumar)who all try to catch a young girl (Rati Agnihotri). It was a classic movie and if you get it, you must watch it. 😉

  317. #317 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 11:42 AM

    Omer

    How can you associate genius with imperfection? And how is Tendulkar not “creative”? He has pioneered some shots and perfected others- he has shown the modern day Sehwags that one can hit a 4 or 6 on any kind of delivery if one is willing to improvise. (Here I am not taunting you because you like Sehwag- I am specifically mentioning Sehwag because he has modelled himself on Tendulkar and he has learned a lot from Tendulkar).

    Talent is an abused word too- and talent simply means, ability or potential. And I don’t think any batsman has been more able than Tendulkar. Words are open textured and we will just twist and turn them to suit our natural biases, I think. You can have a slightly different interpretation of a word to mine- and I think that is what you have underlined in your comment, too.

    In my view Lara, Sehwag, Tendulkar and Ponting are all geniuses. I would say Ponting is less of a genius than the other 3, because he has not been as creative or “pathbreaking” in his technique. He is just stylish, but he does the basics very well and he attacks.

    Tendulkar used to improvise more and his batting was more unconventional before this tennis elbow problem. I have mentioned this before, that his improvisation was immense- playing balls outside off to midwicket, leaving stumps to create room and slogging over cover, dabbing the ball to slips and fine leg etc. The greatness in his talent is that even though he is not NOW the player he used to be, he is still pretty good. You can see that now he is not as consistent, he is not that creative, his batting is more conventional and relies more on precise timing and placement than creativity.

  318. #318 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 11:51 AM

    Omer

    Please see what Sehwag is saying about Tendulkar:

    http://www.cricinfo.com/sachinat20/content/current/story/434385.html

    Some quotes:

    Only great players can have two shots for one ball, like Tendulkar does, and a big reason is that he picks the ball very early.

    I learned from Tendulkar how to get big hundreds

  319. #319 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 12:50 PM

    Pakistan’s Test squad:

    Squad: Salman Butt, Khurrum Manzoor, Imran Farhat, Mohammad Yousuf (capt), Shoaib Malik, Fawad Alam, Faisal Iqbal, Kamran Akmal (wk), Danish Kaneria, Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Arafat, Umar Gul, Mohammad Asif, Mohammad Aamir, Abdur Rauf, Umer Akmal, Sarfraz Ahmad.

    The batting appears weak yet again.

    Openers: Butt (useless), Farhat (useless), Manzoor (not great, but better than the rest), Fawad Alam?

    Middle order: Yousuf, Faisal Iqbal, Malik, Umer Akmal, Fawad Alam

    I think Pakistan will go with:

    Butt
    Manzoor
    Malik
    Yousuf
    U Akmal
    Fawad
    K Akmal
    Gul
    Aamer
    Asif
    Ajmal

  320. #320 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 12:54 PM

    Musharraf’s associates to launch movement against corruption in Pakistan

    ISLAMABAD: The associates and close supporters of former President Musharraf have decided to launch the movement of ‘Corruption matao, Mulak Bachao’ (eliminate corruption to save Pakistan).
    One of the closest aides of former President Musharraf, and main leader of ‘Pasdar-e-Pakistan’, barrister Saif Muhammad has announced to start this movement and has even held a demonstration in front of the press club.
    The prominent politicians, including ANP’s former minister and MNA , Khawaja Muhammad Khan Hoti also participated in the protest rally, in which it was announced that excessive corruption was a danger to the evolvement and success of democracy in Pakistan.
    Speaking on the occasion, Barrister Saif deemed it as a big shame that even well educated person required to pay graft to get jobs (often well below standards). He stressed on all patriotic elements of the Country to battle the ever-growing menace of corruption.—Agencies

  321. #321 by newguy on November 15, 2009 - 2:56 PM

    This article from Kapil is seething with criticism of Tendulkar, but in a more affectionate way, only Kapil can do this in India because of his achievements and being the one man who took the World Cup to India. Besides it is well know Kapil was always at odds with cricket administration in India and he was never one to follow the party-line to get important positions and so on, because of this reason he is shunned by cricket authorities, who even tried to conduct a 25 year celebration of WC win in India without inviting the man who led the country to it!

    Anyhow, here is some of the things he says:

    What the cricketer in me says is that I would be happy had me made 500 to 1000 runs less in his career provided he had been ruthless in his approach.

    To my mind there are only a few ODI innings in which he played to his potential. I remember a 138 against Sri Lanka, and thr 175 he made in Hyderabad last fortnight. There are a few other innings that comes to mind, but I can confidentally assert that, for a major part of his career, Tendulkar has played well below his potential.

    To my mind Sachin played like Gavaskar.

    Wow, this comment above is the most telling.

    The world bowlers are scared of a batsman like Virendar Sehwag today. But they should always have been scared of Sachin.

    I believe Gavaskar had a very strong influence on Tendulkar’s career, I guess this is what Kapil Dev is alluding to me knowing the undercurrents in dressing room and outside. Gavaskar might have influenced Tendulkar in his early days to curb his penchant for strokes and dominate bowling to instead go for records, including breaking his own, he would have put in Tendulkar’s mind that it is more important to score more hundreds and more runs than anyone else, rather than dominate bowling. Just like he did himself.

    It is well known Gavaskar was Tendulkar’s mentor in his early days and all of this is plausible.

  322. #322 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 15, 2009 - 4:20 PM

    Munir

    Thanks for that, yes it is Utpal Dutt and I have seen that movie Shauqeen, good one.

    Varun

    What do you mean by this? “I was a bit fed up of his constant cribbing of anything Indian on this website.”

    Omer and I, we both have praised Sehwag’s batting style and at least a dozen times I must have said that Dravid is a gentleman and one of the best ambassadors of India and just yesterday I praised Paresh Rawal and Utpal Dutt’s acting and many other things about India that I wrote, you simply tend to ignore them. You only pick up what I write against Indians like Tendulkar or Shahrukh Khan etc. I do criticize so many Pakistanis, politicians, cricket players, bureaucrats, actors, etc. and pass funny comments.

    If India has a homeless problem then you cannot hide it like some dirt under the carpet, can you? For your information I have not seen Slum Dog Millionaire movie although many people I know have seen and asked me to see, I said, NO, I am not interested.

    I have also talked on this blog about the South Indian food and, for any Pathan it is like an Alien Food but, I tried it when I was in Dubai and I enjoy it and not only enjoy it, I have also learned how to make most of those dishes and make batter then most South Indians.

    So, what kinda constant cribbing of anything Indian that you have seen on this blog? I think here on our blog we are more liberal than many other moderated blogs. Do you recall after last year’s Mumbai Attack there was a Pakistani guy on our blog called Wasim and you even had an argument with him? He does not allow anyone of us to write on his blog, in fact he banned our IP addresses but, he had the cheek to come and write here after the Mumbai Attack requesting us to approve his comments and, we did.

    Finally after a few weeks he started pissing off everyone i.e., because of his nature which he cannot change and was trying to tell us that he is doing us a favour by writing on our blog and then he stopped.

    The point is we never blocked his IP address, we never censored his comments and we did not ask him why he does that to us? And, we never asked him to leave and nor we are going to ask him to come again and write. The only thing we censor on this blog is F words that are directed towards another blogger.

    We approve corny jokes and religious, political, financial, general in short all sorts of comments. So, please don’t pass a sweeping comment next time. Thanks.

  323. #323 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 15, 2009 - 4:29 PM

    Today’s match between SA and England was totally one sided. SA hammered and demoralized England with that humongous total. England were intimidated by the total and never got a start that they should have. Instead of sending regular openers they must have changed the game plan and should have sent Morgan to open the innings and one down Pietersen but they stick to the basics and lost.

    Sajid Mahmood and Adil Rashid bowled extremely bad and Sajid gave 60 runs in 4 overs and took one wicket whereas, Rashid gave 25 in one over. Loots Bosman and Graeme Smith played some great cricket and created a world record for the opening partnership. Bosman is unlucky not have scored a 100 but his innings was studded with 9 sixes and Smith also hit 6 sixes.

    khansahab

    Where is Misbah in the squad?

  324. #324 by newguy on November 15, 2009 - 7:11 PM

    More from the Kapil Dev article:

    I have not seen Don Bradman bat. But I have seen Viv Richards and Sunil Gavaskar. Sachin is more talentend than the two of them. He is a batsman capable of batting on 300 after a day’s play in a Test. Today’s climate and real feel are such you have to score that quickly to make bg scores and kill the opposing bowling. I know Sachin could have done it. In my judgement, has had underperformed to his ability in the last 12 years.

    I know it’s easy to say he should win a World Cup for India off his own bat, But this is not in his control, winning a World Cup is about team-work. What I want to see from Sachin in the rest of his career is to bat as he did in Hyderabad where he accelerated every time he lost a batting partner. This is his real ability.

    I enjoyed it immensely when Sachin said this was the very best innings in his life. This is what he is capable of. The 140 ball hundreds are for Rahul Dravid and the like. I wish that to do justice to his ability he would sit with the likes of Richards, people with a ruthless approach – not with Geoffrey Boycott, who incidentally also broke all kinds of records.

    I remeber Sharjah (ODIs in 1998), Sydney double hundred (in 2004), Perth hundred (1992). Sorry to say, I cannot say the same of his last 15 international hundreds. I was very hurt when Ponting said recently that Sachin makes runs. I think the Australian captain dismissed him as an accumulator of runs, a maker of records.

    I know for a fact that he can hot the very same ball from the very same spot either to the leg side or the off side for four and he can do so either off the front foot or the back foot. Knowing very clearly that he has more ability and talent than anyone else, he should have destroyed bowlers.

    What I would like to see in the remainder of his career is that he should dominate the bowling and make runs as he did in the Hyderabad ODI. I would like to see him finish his career as a destroyer of bowlers, as a ruthless cricketer who helped his team dominate the sport.

  325. #325 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 8:48 PM

    Omer

    Considering Lara better than Tendulkar or vice versa has nothing to do with age. To imply that immature or less educated people prefer Tendulkar over Lara, is very immature on your part- if that is your direct implication. I am not saying this from a personal viewpoint, since I consider Tendulkar better than Lara (albeit only marginally so), but I am quite shocked that you succumbed to this “education” and “maturity” argument, which is laughable almost.

    I am sure many kids thought Lara was the best batsman when he made that 400. Kids think like that- in terms of, 400 is “better” than 248.

  326. #326 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 8:54 PM

    Javed A Khan

    Misbah’s place is still in contention officially, although it seems inevitable he will be in the squad. Of course, the person who will miss out as a consequence will be Fawad Alam whereas it should really be Shoaib Malik or Salman Butt.

  327. #327 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 8:57 PM

    If I recall correctly Misbah has kept a beard? I wonder how much that has to do with his inevitable selection for the NZ Tests under Yousuf’s captaincy and Inzamam’s politics?

  328. #328 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 9:30 PM

    Sarfraz Nawaz recently gave an interview and said, Younis Khan is an “honourable” player. Sarfraz has criticised Younis heavily in the past but even he accepts Younis has some sense of honour.

    Now, Sarfraz also said that the team is definitely involved in match fixing (the implication is that he feels the team minus Younis Khan is involved). He said that some official in Karachi has already given evidence that there was match fixing. He also said that the umpires were involved in it. (This is all before this ODI series vs New Zealand).

    Although I know the ICC has a tough stance on this, but we all know that the PCB has been accused of corruption and bribery. If the Board has dishonourable and dishonest people, why can’t the team have dishonest and dishonourable cricketers?

    Sarfraz also said that, before the Qayyum report many people used to think Wasim Akram/Salim Malik etc could never fix matches or accept bribes, but they were proven to have done so.

  329. #329 by khansahab on November 15, 2009 - 10:11 PM

    Omer

    I understand, thanks for clarifying.

  330. #330 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 16, 2009 - 12:18 AM

    Playing for the team and for self.

    Today, in SA when Loots Bosman and Smith were playing, they kept on going and going, they wanted to impose a daunting total for the team and not an individual milestone – a century. Bosman, when he was on 86 he hit a big six and was unstoppable and got out in the same way trying to hit another six. For them making a century was not on their mind, if that was the case, they would have slowed down. One needs to see that match in order to understand what I am saying.

  331. #331 by newguy on November 16, 2009 - 3:53 AM

    Omer,

    You said:
    I believe Tendulkar has the ability to dominate, but his goal of runs can get in the way of him psychologically defeating the opposition as Sehwag or Lara would. Lara’s “artistic rage” was a sight to behold. Both are fantastic players, but me being biased towards brilliance more than consistency– and being consistent with that logic– would rate players accordingly.

    What’s your opinion on this though?

    I have mixed feelings, at times I have wondered whether Tendulkar curbs himself and plays for accumulating runs, I have also felt that he has been able to prolong his career by curbing this artistic rage and going for the quiet accumulation mode.

    I certainly prefer the attacking innings, I believe he certainly was/is capable of it, I don’t know if you have seen his first innings he played as opener against NZ in ’94, he scored a 82 off just 49 balls and he hit something like 15 fours and 2 sixes in that, and he has played a few more like that the ’98 back to back innings in Sharjah against Australia comes to mind, but not many others.

    So like Kapil Dev says I too have felt that he underperformed by going into making centuries and scoring runs, had he played as an attacking batsman he may have burned out and finished sooner, but he may have played some big innings like Lara.

    In the end, I don’t know if he felt this is what is needed from him by the team or he did this in order to preserve his career and accumulate maximum runs. To me, personal records matter only so long as they help in making the team stronger as well. Tendulkar has certainly served India well, it’s just impossible to know what would have happened had he not curbed his attacking style. It’s also a mystery why he did that after starting out to be an attacking batsman intent on dominating bowling.

  332. #332 by newguy on November 16, 2009 - 4:02 AM

    Gavaskar was a big accumulator of runs and hundreds, whenever he neared a hundred he would make sure he slows down and get that hundred. He had in fact put his interests ahead of team many times. Matter of fact many other players have done it, Ravi Shastri was the master of this art, he would crawl from 80’s onwards until he get that hundred, he will be stuck on 98 or 99 for ever sometimes.

    Tendulkar never is like that, although he too slows down around hundreds and get nervous sometimes, a lot of batsmen do, but you don’t expect batting greats to be like that, I haven’t watched Lara’s hundreds close enough to know how he would approach it, but I surely know what Sehwag does 🙂

  333. #333 by newguy on November 16, 2009 - 4:06 AM

    Finally a Test match after all that T20 and ODIs. Ind vs. SL is on and good to see Laxman, Dravid, and Zaheer back in action. SL has never won a Test in India and they want to change it. Can M&M do something? We’ll wait and see.

  334. #334 by newguy on November 16, 2009 - 4:10 AM

    First ball Sehwag faced in the Test match is dispatched for four 🙂 This guy’s mind works in ways like no one else.

  335. #335 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 16, 2009 - 5:54 AM

    What a dream start for Sri Lanka, India are 32 for 4 with Gambhir, Tendulkar and Laxman clean bowled and Sehwag lbw out. At the moment SL is dominating.

    newguy

    This guy Welegedara of Sri Lanka is one more bowler to the list of new and unknown bowlers who get Tendulkar’s wicket or, one cay easily say: Tendulkar has a knack of giving away his wicket to an unknown bowler. Among others, Shabbir Ahmad and Mohammad Asif are the bowlers who got him early when they were very new at international level and Tendulkar was facing them for the first time.

    Dravid is the WALL in test cricket and now only he can save by playing an anchor role and giving Dhoni and Yuvraj the chances to hit. I think at Ahmedabad, India’s lowest score was 76?

  336. #336 by Varun Suri on November 16, 2009 - 12:48 PM

    Dear khansahab and Javed,

    I want to sincerely apologise for my hasty comments few days ago. After a day of dusty and polluted Delhi Traffic I was already irritated and at the end of the day I read few things which made me wrote such things. I know how many times you would have appreciated anything Indian or condemned anything Pakistani and my remarks were uncalled for. I can say that there are many things I don’t like about India or Indians and at the same time I like many things about Pakistan and that is the reason I have been writing on LS since the beginning and in order to continue doing that I hope you would overlook my rude comments in favour of my decent comments before.

    After all if I have to write in such manner then there are many Blogs and Hate-Websites for such people to pour there hearts out but because we have tried to be different from the usual websites in that we are more civil and tolerant of each other (Ind-Pak).

    Apologies for breaking this code of conduct which I have tried to follow since the inception of LS.

    On a different note, the WALL is back and played a very Un-Dravid like knock today which might be his fastest Test Century but it was a pleasure watching him play and I am sure Javed would have also liked him scoring this Century and steal some of the limelight from Tendulkar of whom we’ve had a bit of an overdose in the past one week!!!

  337. #337 by newguy on November 16, 2009 - 1:40 PM

    What a wonderful turnaround from 32-4 and not surprisingly Dravid had a major role to play, wonderful innings from him, 177 not out on day 1. He also crossed 11,000 runs today, and no media fan fare about that. Dravid let out some emotions after scoring the hundred, I think he is upset about the way he has been treated by selectors and media. I hope Dravid gets to a double hundred tomorrow and put India in an even more dominant position from where they can apply pressure.

    Javed, yes, Tendulkar got out to a new comer as he has done several times. I thought the fight back will come from Laxman and Dravid, instead Laxman did not last long either. The way Youvraj and Dhoni batted there wasn’t much in the pitch except the 1st 45 minutes as they said. 4th and 5th day will be a different story perhaps if it starts taking turn.

  338. #338 by Awas on November 16, 2009 - 1:43 PM

    Varun

    From time to time, I guess, we all indulge in little indiscretions when making comments out of either passion or some experiences we have had. Javed and khansahab are both very decent and gracious. So, I don’t think there would be anything personal here. By expressing your views the way you did so decently and honestly shows what a nice person you are yourself as many Indians that I know are like that too.

    After 4-32, that’s a great come back from India mainly because of Dravid. The Wall has shown again what a great player he is. Tendulkar takes all the limelight but Dravid too has performed some great feats.

  339. #339 by JAVED A. KHAN on November 16, 2009 - 4:21 PM

    Varun

    apologies accepted 😀 Now forgettO about the past lets discuss this test.

    After seeing the fall of early wickets, I slept like a log (it was late night here) and I woke up a while ago and I am pleasantly surprised to see that he did not disappoint me and my prediction came true. It wasn’t an exploding innings but a star studded old fashioned innings that was full of cricketing strokes. In his own words, he said this:

    “It’s nice to get this feeling of batting the way I have. I’ve been through some tough times for a couple of seasons. I thought the flow’s sort of come back this year, in various forms of the game. It was probably one of my most fluent efforts over the last few seasons.”

    Bravo Dravid, you did the job but, don’t stop here, keep guiding Harbhajan and Zaheer Khan to stay there and give you support and you go for the two or if possible three hundred.

    Murali gave away 90 runs so far, I wonder why they are not playing BAW Mendis? I want someone to go after him.

  340. #340 by Varun Suri on November 16, 2009 - 5:29 PM

    Merci Beacoup Javed saheb!

    Omer,

    I did not say that Gambhir is Dravid right now I just said that he is in the making and ofcourse Dravid also had many ups and downs in his career so what if Gambhir failed in this innings so did the Great Jaat of Najafgarh-Sehwag, VeryVerySpecial.Laxman and also the so called God of Indian Cricket who needs no introduction after all the chest thumping done by the Indian Media in the past One Week.

  341. #341 by khansahab on November 16, 2009 - 7:11 PM

    Dravid is a great, great player. A legend, a great ambassador for the game and a gentleman. Batting wise, only TLP (Tendulkar Lara Ponting) are his competitors, otherwise he is one of the finest batsmen to have played international cricket.

  342. #342 by newguy on November 16, 2009 - 7:45 PM

    Murali is in decline, he has lot his ability to turn the ball as much as he used to, or shall I say he lost his jerk in the arm 🙂 Sanjay Manjerkar says Murali has lost his strength, and so he is not able to get spin from wickets that has no assitance. Murali like Jayausrya is prolonging his career for no obvious reason, he should retire now before he is left out of team for a younger player. They should have played BAW Mendis. I hope when they do make him play, one or two of the Indians will take him to the cleaners.

  343. #343 by khansahab on November 16, 2009 - 7:48 PM

    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/41378.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

    Misbah’s Test record is pathetic, just check his performance when not playing against India. Why is he being called back into the team?

  344. #344 by khansahab on November 16, 2009 - 8:00 PM

    Omer

    This is not my criticism towards you, but towards people generally. I don’t understand how “personality” matters when assessing how good a player is. Shoaib Akhtar was a great bowler when in rhythm, but he is never fit which is why he is pathetic. Even if Tendulkar was arrogant like Akhtar, I would still rate him as high. That is because, in assessing quality I don’t take into account my natural biases. What I am trying to say is that, Dravid is one of my favourite players partially because he is a gentleman and a very decent guy. Tendulkar is not amongst my favourite players, but he is a genius and the best batsman of all time. So that is the difference; personally I don’t like Tendulkar, but I understand his greatness.

    I don’t like Wasim Akram personally, but I understand how great a bowler he was (in fact I dislike Wasim Akram very much). I don’t like Miandad or Inzamam personally, but they were great players- Miandad, slightly better. On the other hand, personally I like Shahid Afridi because of his straightforwardness, but I don’t consider him that great a player. Some of it is his own doing because of his refusal to play Tests.

  345. #345 by khansahab on November 16, 2009 - 8:05 PM

    Varun

    No need to apologise, I told you when you came on this blog that you have a nice heart and you’re a nice guy. I know you are patriotic- many of us are. The good thing is you apologised, which shows character.

  346. #346 by khansahab on November 16, 2009 - 8:15 PM

    BREAKING NEWS

    Basit Ali has given a statement that Yousuf and Butt should be sacked from the ODI team.

  347. #347 by Varun Suri on November 17, 2009 - 8:20 AM

    Thank you Awas and Khansahab for your kind words.

    In btw Omer, I never thought that you have any anti-indian bias, I know how big a fan you are of Sehwag.

    I am in a hurry today so will write in detail in the new blog latersss.

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